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Upcoming Changes to Fall Damage and Revival


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@Robert Gee.9246 said:Thanks for the feedback everyone. I've been following this thread and I wanted to respond to a some comments that have come up a few times:Fall damage reduction is important in WvW.We hear you that fall damage reduction and gauging whether a fall will kill you is something that is considered regularly as a part of WvW. However we would like to see how the WvW meta adjusts before making additional changes.

I need falling damage reduction for some jumping puzzles.Right now we think the only one that really needs it is Griffonrook Run because it integrates fall damage into the critical path (the red eggs restore health for this reason). We'll be adding fall damage reduction into the bomb buff as a result. We don't think this necessary for the other jumping puzzles at the moment but are open to adding it as the need arises.

While I am really glad to see evidence that you are indeed following the feedback, I think you may have missed the significance of some of what has been said.

JPs:Removing fall damage not only impacts those who regularly run JPs & portal trains as mentioned earlier by @"Treize.3578", but also impacts those who are unskilled at jumping puzzles, for whom this trait may mean the difference between restarting part way through, and having to jump back to the nearest unlocked waypoint and run back to the beginning and start all over again. While the first is frustrating, I can guarantee that the second is going to end up being the difference between retrying and giving up for some of those trying to learn. When saying that Griffenrook is the only JP that has falling built into the mechanics and therefore the only one you will put in falling damage mitigation, it seems that you then now intend for JPs to be more punishing for players to learn.

WvW:I am really not sure how to take your answer here in wanting to see how the meta shifts before making additional changes. "additional" seems to indicate that you intend to go ahead and remove falling damage reduction from WvW despite near universal agreement in the part of those posting here that this is a bad idea. Fine. You are the developer, your call whether we like it or not. But in saying "how the meta shifts" you create for yourself a conundrum. Either the falling damage mitigation traits are commonly used enough for you to consider them meta, in which case you are intentionally removing a well used and clearly well liked feature, or else the traits are not used much, they are niche, in which case waiting for the "meta to shift" has no meaning at all.

*Edited for clarity

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Still a terrible change, and you don't even address PvE usefulness concerns in this follow-up.

@Robert Gee.9246 said:Right now we think the only one that really needs [falling damage reduction] is Griffonrook Run

Falling damage reduction is useful for just playing the game: it's quality-of-life; whether you're exploring, in a jumping puzzle, or attempting a cool trick in a gliding/mount-restricted area.

For example, jumping straight down from the chest in the fractal lobby jumping puzzle kills my warrior if I don't have falling damage reduction traited. Is this a huge deal? No. Is it fun to tank that fall? Yes.

And what about warrior's fall CC? This was useful for both Amala and the ice elemental boss. It's not confusing; it's a creative application for an otherwise niche ability, and leaving it in allows players to discover useful tricks for challenging situations. Replacing it with a homogeneous damage buff is straight-up boring.

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@Kolzi.5928 said:

@"thrag.9740" said:You guys need to change twisted castle then. RIght now you have two options to make that jump, dodge roll of the edge or fall damage trait. However, dodge rolling off the edge is counter intuitive with no in game explanation. By dodge rolling off the ledge, you fall faster, but don't die from the fall. That's incredibly confusing.

Edit: people don't believe me, so I made a video showing this:

That jump isn't part of the intended way of doing things, it's a player-found shortcut, so worrying about it being counter intuitive is a bit silly imo :p It's still totally doable.

Yes but it is also part of the meta now. Any new players who watch a video or even just play with a player who has any experience are going to encounter this and think it is the correct path.

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@Khisanth.2948 said:

@"Robert Gee.9246" said:
I need falling damage reduction for some jumping puzzles.
Right now we think the only one that really needs it is Griffonrook Run because it integrates fall damage into the critical path (the red eggs restore health for this reason). We'll be adding fall damage reduction into the bomb buff as a result. We don't think this necessary for the other jumping puzzles at the moment but are open to adding it as the need arises.

Hi, this is Trixx from [PINK] Community Portal, the EU JP portal guild.The reduced falling damage is essential for many portal skips. A save way down is often blocked due to the no flight/mount zones and only with a fall damage reducing trait a save portal to the end of a jumping puzzle is possible. With this changes you will lock out the ppl that can not jump, due handicaps or lack of patience or skill or ... , from achievements and dailys. We provide a special service to the communtiy and we won't be able to continue this service in its entirety with these future changes.

I'll add that since Griffonrook is made so you can do it without the bomb, many if not most seem to ignore the bomb mechanic in favor of taking the time needed to line up the tricky jumps since the final chest really doesn't hold much worth the effort of a speed run. The bomb buff only lasts 3 minutes, and that only if you make it that long without taking any damage, so to get the jp achieve or the skyscale the bomb is bypassed. Now you want to require people to use a timed, easily lost buff to navigate this puzzle's legitimate path without dying? I hope you're willing to hand out huge bundles of free revive orbs.

and what is wrong with expecting people to do a JP as the designer intended? O_o

I have nothing against people coming with alternate solutions but "you shouldn't make X changes because people will have to do the content as designed" is a weird stance. Fall damage reduction is not even required for Griffonrook if you are not carrying the bomb since you have all the time in the world to heal up before making any of the big jumps.

I don't have a problem with people porting. Since Anet is reading this thread though, I wish they would make the area around the chest kick you to the beginning when you log back in. I really don't agree with people placing 70 toons at a chest and just logging them on one at a time for free loot every day.

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I have a suggestion for WvW fall damage. Why not create a new upgrade line like you did for gliding and the warclaw? Have it tier up to different amounts of fall damage resistance and have the final tier be a CC effect like what Warrior currently has. It seems to me that this would be an effective way of keeping the mechanic in WvW without adding it to traits or skills.

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@Robert Gee.9246 said:Fall damage reduction is important in WvW.We hear you that fall damage reduction and gauging whether a fall will kill you is something that is considered regularly as a part of WvW. However we would like to see how the WvW meta adjusts before making additional changes.

As a primary WvW player, this is not an answer. A succinct yes or no is what is required here. Either way, please elaborate on how fall damage reduction is considered meta, when a normal zerg does not engage in jumping off cliffs to hit an enemy.

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@Robert Gee.9246

Can you kill yourself with Signet of Undeath's active?No. Health is a resource similar to Initiative or Adrenaline. The skill will simply be greyed out and uncastable if you don't have the required health cost.

Yes, health is a resource and it is very good that there are skills with health strokes.But unlike adrenaline, initiative or other.When you lose life by inflicting damage or conditions on yourself, you go into combat and so you run slower, you can't regenerate yourself,... (all the disadvantages of the combat mode)A thief who uses weapon skills for stealthy past with a combo or tp and moves, he does not go into combat strangely though, he uses a resource (initiative).Isn't that strange?

Putting more and more skills like that is good, but putting it on the class that has the least mobility, the least means of passing out of combat, and the only class that needs a baby sitter if it doesn't want to be demolished, which is gardian in competitive modes.It's very strange, especially since most of the skills that ask us to sacrifice ourselves are far from being good compared to other classes that don't ask for any sacrifice.

If the active sign of it really someone definitely dead and not just a target down.The active would be played, but from what we see here, it's not the case.

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@Robert Gee.9246 said:Stalwart Courage (Courageous Return) is definitely too strong.Talked this one over with Cal and we're going to split the protection duration in PvP/WvW to 1 second. We considered an ICD for this trait, but think it's more interesting without it so we will only add one if this split proves insufficient to balance it.

Can you reconsider this split? At the moment this split heavily favors FB because FB has significant aegis access. With no ICD that means every aegis removed will grant protection, however with DH and Core you don't really have a lot of aegis unless you opt for super niche builds, so the benefit is less than what it would be under an ICD. Given how much stronger FB is than DH/Core in sPvP, wouldn't it be better to opt for the change that has more benefit for the latter two over the former? At 1s its really doesn't have any impact unless you run FB. Something like a 10 or even 15s ICD wouldn't be that different for FB over the current split but would be a nice buff for DH/Core.

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@Treize.3578 said:

I need falling damage reduction for some jumping puzzles.
Right now we think the only one that really needs it is Griffonrook Run because it integrates fall damage into the critical path (the red eggs restore health for this reason). We'll be adding fall damage reduction into the bomb buff as a result. We don't think this necessary for the other jumping puzzles at the moment but are open to adding it as the need arises.

Hi, this is Trixx from [PINK] Community Portal, the EU JP portal guild.The reduced falling damage is essential for many portal skips. A save way down is often blocked due to the no flight/mount zones and only with a fall damage reducing trait a save portal to the end of a jumping puzzle is possible. With this changes you will lock out the ppl that can not jump, due handicaps or lack of patience or skill or ... , from achievements and dailys. We provide a special service to the communtiy and we won't be able to continue this service in its entirety with these future changes.

just use two portalers or somethingbut I don't think being able to cheese content needs to be something that's taken into consideration when making changes to the game

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@"Treize.3578" said:The reduced falling damage is essential for many portal skips.If by "portal skips" you mean "ways to allow people to gain reward without effort", then sure... yes.With this changes you will lock out the ppl that can not jump, due handicaps or lack of patience or skill or ... , from achievements and dailys.

  1. There are 11 other dailies. 3 in PvE. No one is being denied their 2g because you can't cheese a JP for them.
  2. Why should achievements be given to people who do not achieve them?We provide a special service to the communtiy and we won't be able to continue this service in its entirety with these future changes.I don't think there's really anything "special" about helping someone get reward for zero effort.
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Can people, who find this fall dmg reduction so incredibly useful in wvw, give some examples ? Because I do play wvw myself, mostly roaming, and I have yet to witness any real benefit to me or my enemy from the trait. Although, I do get annoyed when it triggers the icd if I fail to anticipate the height when jumping off something.

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@Treize.3578 said:

Games are for fun/relaxation/enjoyment, but just what those things are varies from players to player, so in the end for the most part development must persist with
their
vision of the game (we all know you cannot please everyone). After all it is their game, not ours. We choose to play or not. The game is not a public service, and we do not have any rights as such to demand X or Y from them.

Can we then please have raids that are not possible to success with less than 10 players fighting perfect?It's not really relevant, and somewhat of a clumsy retort, but sure,
if
that becomes part of Anet's vision for the game to have such difficult content that it can't be completely by anyone but the very best, then so be it. It's not really the point of this thread though is it.

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@Moira Shalaar.5620

JPs:Removing fall damage not only impacts those who regularly run JPs & portal trains as mentioned earlier by @Treize.3578, but also impacts those who are unskilled at jumping puzzles, for whom this trait may mean the difference between restarting part way through, and having to jump back to the nearest unlocked waypoint and run back to the beginning and start all over again. While the first is frustrating, I can guarantee that the second is going to end up being the difference between retrying and giving up for some of those trying to learn.

Honestly don't see where you are coming from at all. When the game first came out, people had to restart JP's all the time and most of them didn't give up. What they were left with was a sense of accomplishment instead for actually doing it themselves. Now JP's are just a huge freaking joke, seeing clusters of 20+ people standing still waiting for a portal to the end is just sad.I am fully aware that this is a really unpopular opinion, but I honestly wish they would disable portals in jumping puzzles. If people cant do them as intended then why do them at all.

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@Robert Gee.9246 said:I need falling damage reduction for some jumping puzzles.Right now we think the only one that really needs it is Griffonrook Run because it integrates fall damage into the critical path (the red eggs restore health for this reason). We'll be adding fall damage reduction into the bomb buff as a result. We don't think this necessary for the other jumping puzzles at the moment but are open to adding it as the need arises.

Hello. Would you consider adding it to the Not So Secret jumping puzzle as well? This is already one of the least forgiving JP in the game, and while it's not necessarily a game changer for the people climbing, it's very valuable to the people making portals for those who struggle to reach the chest, or worse, the diving goggles. In other words, keeping fall damage reduction in this JP would mostly help those who help others.

I understand you can probably use that last sentence to make a case for any jumping puzzle, but other hard jumping puzzles usually have some mechanic to alleviate the difficulty, like NPCs that will rez you when you fall, checkpoints, or an easy way to restart. The Not So Secret JP has none, and this is the only reason why I think you should make an exception for it.

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Fall damage traits aren't needed, but they were an option to reduce risks while doing certain tasks. Why remove the option if it's doing no harm to keep it? Yeah most JPs don't need it, but it acted as a safety net if you fall, so you don't have to make the long run from a WP.

This is yet another case of devs being out of touch with the community.

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@Reverielle.3972 said:

I need falling damage reduction for some jumping puzzles.
Right now we think the only one that really needs it is Griffonrook Run because it integrates fall damage into the critical path (the red eggs restore health for this reason). We'll be adding fall damage reduction into the bomb buff as a result. We don't think this necessary for the other jumping puzzles at the moment but are open to adding it as the need arises.

Hi, this is Trixx from [PINK] Community Portal, the EU JP portal guild.The reduced falling damage is essential for many portal skips. A save way down is often blocked due to the no flight/mount zones and only with a fall damage reducing trait a save portal to the end of a jumping puzzle is possible. With this changes you will lock out the ppl that can not jump, due handicaps or lack of patience or skill or ... , from achievements and dailys. We provide a special service to the communtiy and we won't be able to continue this service in its entirety with these future changes.

I'm fairly sure Jumping puzzles were never meant to be 'risk free' parts of the game, nor were they designed to be skipped and completed in many ways they are today. Many are are designed to be challenging content, either exploratory wise (finding the right path) or mechanically wise (being able to make the right jump). Players that are too impatient (that is all jumping puzzles essentially really need: patience, this is coming from a bad jumper myself) simply must accept not to do them. Players need to realise that there will - and should - be some challenging aspects in the game, and many jumping puzzles were designed to fall under that category. The game can't continually be simplified/diluted down to the lowest common denominator.

Think before you babble. Jumping puzzles are required content for all legendary weapon precursors. If you make portals impossible you exclude handicapped players from completing any precursor collection.

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@Gamander.7269 said:

@"Robert Gee.9246" said:
I need falling damage reduction for some jumping puzzles.
Right now we think the only one that really needs it is Griffonrook Run because it integrates fall damage into the critical path (the red eggs restore health for this reason). We'll be adding fall damage reduction into the bomb buff as a result. We don't think this necessary for the other jumping puzzles at the moment but are open to adding it as the need arises.

Hi, this is Trixx from [PINK] Community Portal, the EU JP portal guild.The reduced falling damage is essential for many portal skips. A save way down is often blocked due to the no flight/mount zones and only with a fall damage reducing trait a save portal to the end of a jumping puzzle is possible. With this changes you will lock out the ppl that can not jump, due handicaps or lack of patience or skill or ... , from achievements and dailys. We provide a special service to the communtiy and we won't be able to continue this service in its entirety with these future changes.

I'm fairly sure Jumping puzzles were never meant to be 'risk free' parts of the game, nor were they designed to be skipped and completed in many ways they are today. Many are are designed to be challenging content, either exploratory wise (finding the right path) or mechanically wise (being able to make the right jump). Players that are too impatient (that is all jumping puzzles essentially really need: patience, this is coming from a bad jumper myself) simply must accept not to do them. Players need to realise that there will - and should - be some challenging aspects in the game, and many jumping puzzles were designed to fall under that category. The game can't continually be simplified/diluted down to the lowest common denominator.

Think before you babble. Jumping puzzles are required content for all legendary weapon precursors. If you make portals impossible you exclude handicapped players from completing any precursor collection.

So? That's part of the legendary weapon journey. It has always been the intent of development to span multiple play-styles/requirements on the journey to getting a legendary. "They’re designed to stand out and show everyone that you are a true master of Guild Wars 2". These are the top items in the game. You do have to do some work, and put in some effort for them, you know? Your comment makes me think you have not been playing the game (or at least paying attention) for very long.

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@Robert Gee.9246 said:Thanks for the feedback everyone. I've been following this thread and I wanted to respond to a some comments that have come up a few times:

First of all: thanks for the reaction!

One thing I was missing is a stance on the damage-on-heal issue engineers would have. Putting a damaging skill on healing is something that puts players longer into combat or out of stealth exactly at moments they might not want to do exactly that. There are always situations when you want to heal but want to avoid damage. This comes especially if it is combined with a trait everyone using that kit would call essential. Please: reconsider combining healing with damage. It would make for terrible game-play.

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