Jump to content
  • Sign Up

The Whole Raid Meta Consists of 2 Classes


Recommended Posts

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:I see a lot of opinions on these forums (mostly from hearsay or anecdotal proof, I presume) about PvE balance being in a good spot at the moment, while real statistics >show that even in a mediocre (50th percentiles) setting, the differences between top and bottom classes are incredibly high, up to 30% 40% or even as much as 50% >difference between say a Mirage or Firebrand and say a Condi Scourge (which has terrible condi DPS atm, and is one of the most difficult to pull off as well now!).And again, I'm not talking about speedclearers (who are generally closer together), I'm talking about a casual/pug setting here!

From what i can tell you from my own experience: The classes are actually decently close in terms of dps. Sure you will have some outliners but thats due to player skill. While there is a Mirage that has 5k more DPS than the Soulbeast, theres also 2 Guardians that have a 5k DPS difference.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 89
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Just want to clarify things for people saying that "not everyone can pull these numbers" or " its funny you think you have a group like SC. My point is that SC has found the best possible ways to kill bosses as fast as possible and they ended up using only 2 classes as DPS. I did not say anything about support classes so please stop bringing them into discussion, my opinion is only based on dps classes. Ofc there are exceptions but only on 2-3 bosses that you would use renegades daredevils and deadeyes which are dhuum and qadims. I just wanted to say that those 2 classes are everywhere when it comes to meta. Having the same meta for months gets boring and having big changes on meta makes raiding more fun and feel different which encourages people to play more classes. Some people like me and others enjoy being semi/hardcore and following the meta, so I think that we need a change.

Link to post
Share on other sites

@"Alyster.9470" said:Just want to clarify things for people saying that "not everyone can pull these numbers" or " its funny you think you have a group like SC. My point is that SC has found the best possible ways to kill bosses as fast as possible and they ended up using only 2 classes as DPS. I did not say anything about support classes so please stop bringing them into discussion, my opinion is only based on dps classes. Ofc there are exceptions but only on 2-3 bosses that you would use renegades daredevils and deadeyes which are dhuum and qadims. I just wanted to say that those 2 classes are everywhere when it comes to meta. Having the same meta for months gets boring and having big changes on meta makes raiding more fun and feel different which encourages people to play more classes. Some people like me and others enjoy being semi/hardcore and following the meta, so I think that we need a change.

Yes, and once a majority of players are able to actually make use of these classes and setups, you might have a valid issue. Since that is not the case, who cares?

Beside the obvious fact that a best in slot class will pretty much always exist for power and for condition damage, especially for power. Why would a power damage class suddenly be worse on one boss when it was spiking insanely high on another? I gave a reason why condition damage might see some flexibility here earlier.

Which is even more ironic, since Snowcrows didn't even use all of these setups themselves during ERP3. Why? because it turns out, sometimes going for safety is preferable over a potential fastest setup which has a high chance of failure.

Link to post
Share on other sites

@"mindcircus.1506" no. Do you see mirage on golem benchmark? But it will outdps any class by at least 5-10k depending on boss because "confusion". For firebrand my point was it has way too much damage while having a lot of utility etc. My discussion is about team comps not their benchmarks.

Link to post
Share on other sites

@"Alyster.9470" said:Just want to clarify things for people saying that "not everyone can pull these numbers" or " its funny you think you have a group like SC. My point is that SC has found the best possible ways to kill bosses as fast as possible and they ended up using only 2 classes as DPS. I did not say anything about support classes so please stop bringing them into discussion, my opinion is only based on dps classes. Ofc there are exceptions but only on 2-3 bosses that you would use renegades daredevils and deadeyes which are dhuum and qadims. I just wanted to say that those 2 classes are everywhere when it comes to meta. Having the same meta for months gets boring and having big changes on meta makes raiding more fun and feel different which encourages people to play more classes. Some people like me and others enjoy being semi/hardcore and following the meta, so I think that we need a change.

Well, that's a different point entirely the one you bring up in the OP. You're now saying you dislike the raid meta because just playing 2 classes in unfun, that's completely fair but it changes the discussion.

Not sure if i agree with shaking up the meta Just Because, but i would be concerned for power chrono if it ever left it's place as the p chrono stack meta. Currently, that's all p chrono is useful for.

Link to post
Share on other sites

@RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

@"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:I see a lot of opinions on these forums (mostly from hearsay or anecdotal proof, I presume) about PvE balance being in a good spot at the moment, while
real
statistics >show that even in a mediocre (50th percentiles) setting, the differences between top and bottom classes are incredibly high, up to 30% 40% or even as much as 50% >difference between say a Mirage or Firebrand and say a Condi Scourge (which has terrible condi DPS atm, and is one of the most difficult to pull off as well now!).And again, I'm not talking about speedclearers (who are generally closer together), I'm talking about a casual/pug setting here!

From what i can tell you from my own experience: The classes are actually decently close in terms of dps. Sure you will have some outliners but thats due to player skill. While there is a Mirage that has 5k more DPS than the Soulbeast, theres also 2 Guardians that have a 5k DPS difference.

Indeed, those are mostly own experiences, and those could be quite cloudy, and always anecdotal. If you look at statistics of 100's of people, say on ... the very first raid boss VG:qdEnwpJ.pngYou see that for Condi DPS, a (in this case) condi Weaver is almost 5K in front of (between brackets () is boss dps) a condi Scourge. And 5K doesnt sound too much, but it's actually about 50% more dps that the 9.5k dps a Scourge pulls off.And before anyone starts, I selected the 50th percentile here! In other words, we're looking at the more casual raiders here, not the speedclearers and hardcore raiders which are in the 90th or even 99th percentile (FYI: these are actually a bit closer together even, which even to my surprise could tell you that a Condi Weaver build is easier to pull off than the Condi Scourge build nowadays, but that's a whole different discussion)

Link to post
Share on other sites

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:I see a lot of opinions on these forums (mostly from hearsay or anecdotal proof, I presume) about PvE balance being in a good spot at the moment, while
real
statistics >show that even in a mediocre (50th percentiles) setting, the differences between top and bottom classes are incredibly high, up to 30% 40% or even as much as 50% >difference between say a Mirage or Firebrand and say a Condi Scourge (which has terrible condi DPS atm, and is one of the most difficult to pull off as well now!).And again, I'm not talking about speedclearers (who are generally closer together), I'm talking about a casual/pug setting here!

From what i can tell you from my own experience: The classes are actually decently close in terms of dps. Sure you will have some outliners but thats due to player skill. While there is a Mirage that has 5k more DPS than the Soulbeast, theres also 2 Guardians that have a 5k DPS difference.

Indeed, those are mostly own experiences, and those could be quite cloudy, and always anecdotal. If you look at statistics of 100's of people, say on ... the very first raid boss
:
qdEnwpJ.png
You see that for Condi DPS, a (in this case) condi Weaver is almost 5K in front of (between brackets () is boss dps) a condi Scourge. And 5K doesnt sound too much, but it's actually about
50%
more dps that the 9.5k dps a Scourge pulls off.
And before anyone starts, I selected the 50th percentile here! In other words, we're looking at the more casual raiders here, not the speedclearers and hardcore raiders which are in the 90th or even 99th percentile
(FYI: these are actually a bit closer together even, which even to my surprise could tell you that a Condi Weaver build is easier to pull off than the Condi Scourge build nowadays, but that's a whole different discussion)

and yet the most powerful class and meta condi class on some bosses (Mirage) is at 9.8k condi damage. What exactly does that tell us? Does Mirage turn into the second worst dps at the 50th percentile mark? But it's meta and by far top tier on 3-5 boss at the top end? Please do explain.

While at it, how would a poor performing power dps setup affect condi during split phases on VG given that the red add would die way faster to condi damage while the power dps are still killing their two adds? Is that something which would be reflected in the data?

Link to post
Share on other sites

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:I see a lot of opinions on these forums (mostly from hearsay or anecdotal proof, I presume) about PvE balance being in a good spot at the moment, while
real
statistics >show that even in a mediocre (50th percentiles) setting, the differences between top and bottom classes are incredibly high, up to 30% 40% or even as much as 50% >difference between say a Mirage or Firebrand and say a Condi Scourge (which has terrible condi DPS atm, and is one of the most difficult to pull off as well now!).And again, I'm not talking about speedclearers (who are generally closer together), I'm talking about a casual/pug setting here!

From what i can tell you from my own experience: The classes are actually decently close in terms of dps. Sure you will have some outliners but thats due to player skill. While there is a Mirage that has 5k more DPS than the Soulbeast, theres also 2 Guardians that have a 5k DPS difference.

Indeed, those are mostly own experiences, and those could be quite cloudy, and always anecdotal. If you look at statistics of 100's of people, say on ... the very first raid boss
:
qdEnwpJ.png
You see that for Condi DPS, a (in this case) condi Weaver is almost 5K in front of (between brackets () is boss dps) a condi Scourge. And 5K doesnt sound too much, but it's actually about
50%
more dps that the 9.5k dps a Scourge pulls off.
And before anyone starts, I selected the 50th percentile here! In other words, we're looking at the more casual raiders here, not the speedclearers and hardcore raiders which are in the 90th or even 99th percentile
(FYI: these are actually a bit closer together even, which even to my surprise could tell you that a Condi Weaver build is easier to pull off than the Condi Scourge build nowadays, but that's a whole different discussion)

and yet the most powerful class and meta condi class on some bosses (Mirage) is at 9.8k condi damage. What exactly does that tell us? Does Mirage turn into the second worst dps at the 50th percentile mark? But it's meta and by far top tier on 3-5 boss at the top end? Please do explain.

I rarely ever look at red classes (the red icon in front of them), they have a low confidence level (small sample size (n)), and thus can be considered as anecdotal data!

Link to post
Share on other sites

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:I see a lot of opinions on these forums (mostly from hearsay or anecdotal proof, I presume) about PvE balance being in a good spot at the moment, while
real
statistics >show that even in a mediocre (50th percentiles) setting, the differences between top and bottom classes are incredibly high, up to 30% 40% or even as much as 50% >difference between say a Mirage or Firebrand and say a Condi Scourge (which has terrible condi DPS atm, and is one of the most difficult to pull off as well now!).And again, I'm not talking about speedclearers (who are generally closer together), I'm talking about a casual/pug setting here!

From what i can tell you from my own experience: The classes are actually decently close in terms of dps. Sure you will have some outliners but thats due to player skill. While there is a Mirage that has 5k more DPS than the Soulbeast, theres also 2 Guardians that have a 5k DPS difference.

Indeed, those are mostly own experiences, and those could be quite cloudy, and always anecdotal. If you look at statistics of 100's of people, say on ... the very first raid boss
:
qdEnwpJ.png
You see that for Condi DPS, a (in this case) condi Weaver is almost 5K in front of (between brackets () is boss dps) a condi Scourge. And 5K doesnt sound too much, but it's actually about
50%
more dps that the 9.5k dps a Scourge pulls off.
And before anyone starts, I selected the 50th percentile here! In other words, we're looking at the more casual raiders here, not the speedclearers and hardcore raiders which are in the 90th or even 99th percentile
(FYI: these are actually a bit closer together even, which even to my surprise could tell you that a Condi Weaver build is easier to pull off than the Condi Scourge build nowadays, but that's a whole different discussion)

and yet the most powerful class and meta condi class on some bosses (Mirage) is at 9.8k condi damage. What exactly does that tell us? Does Mirage turn into the second worst dps at the 50th percentile mark? But it's meta and by far top tier on 3-5 boss at the top end? Please do explain.

I rarely ever look at
red
classes (the red icon in front of them), they have a low confidence level (small sample size (n)), and thus can be considered as anecdotal data!

Yet a yellow sample size is adequate? Fine. Doesn't answer the question about how condition damage on VG would be affected by their power dps, but I guess you decided to skip that one.

So what about heal scourge, which is running often a hybrid mix of condition damage and heal power, obviously benching a lot lower than a regular condition scourge. What about scourges who use epi to manage red circles on VG by sharing immobilize and slow?

Would any of those cause any issues?

Link to post
Share on other sites

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:I see a lot of opinions on these forums (mostly from hearsay or anecdotal proof, I presume) about PvE balance being in a good spot at the moment, while
real
statistics >show that even in a mediocre (50th percentiles) setting, the differences between top and bottom classes are incredibly high, up to 30% 40% or even as much as 50% >difference between say a Mirage or Firebrand and say a Condi Scourge (which has terrible condi DPS atm, and is one of the most difficult to pull off as well now!).And again, I'm not talking about speedclearers (who are generally closer together), I'm talking about a casual/pug setting here!

From what i can tell you from my own experience: The classes are actually decently close in terms of dps. Sure you will have some outliners but thats due to player skill. While there is a Mirage that has 5k more DPS than the Soulbeast, theres also 2 Guardians that have a 5k DPS difference.

Indeed, those are mostly own experiences, and those could be quite cloudy, and always anecdotal. If you look at statistics of 100's of people, say on ... the very first raid boss
:
qdEnwpJ.png
You see that for Condi DPS, a (in this case) condi Weaver is almost 5K in front of (between brackets () is boss dps) a condi Scourge. And 5K doesnt sound too much, but it's actually about
50%
more dps that the 9.5k dps a Scourge pulls off.
And before anyone starts, I selected the 50th percentile here! In other words, we're looking at the more casual raiders here, not the speedclearers and hardcore raiders which are in the 90th or even 99th percentile
(FYI: these are actually a bit closer together even, which even to my surprise could tell you that a Condi Weaver build is easier to pull off than the Condi Scourge build nowadays, but that's a whole different discussion)While at it, how would a poor performing power dps setup affect condi during split phases on VG given that the red add would die way faster to condi damage while the power dps are still killing their two adds? Is that something which would be reflected in the data?

I was literally just taking the first boss as an example here, but ok, let's take Cairn then ... a condi boss, EASY and should favor anyone that does Torment dmg, cause it's moving all the time (for some strange reason :) ):IsG7E66.pngAs you can see here as well, the Mirage and Weaver are doing 45% more DPS than a Scourge here!!!

And again, 50th percentile here, not the pro's, but the casuals!

Link to post
Share on other sites

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:I see a lot of opinions on these forums (mostly from hearsay or anecdotal proof, I presume) about PvE balance being in a good spot at the moment, while
real
statistics >show that even in a mediocre (50th percentiles) setting, the differences between top and bottom classes are incredibly high, up to 30% 40% or even as much as 50% >difference between say a Mirage or Firebrand and say a Condi Scourge (which has terrible condi DPS atm, and is one of the most difficult to pull off as well now!).And again, I'm not talking about speedclearers (who are generally closer together), I'm talking about a casual/pug setting here!

From what i can tell you from my own experience: The classes are actually decently close in terms of dps. Sure you will have some outliners but thats due to player skill. While there is a Mirage that has 5k more DPS than the Soulbeast, theres also 2 Guardians that have a 5k DPS difference.

Indeed, those are mostly own experiences, and those could be quite cloudy, and always anecdotal. If you look at statistics of 100's of people, say on ... the very first raid boss
:
qdEnwpJ.png
You see that for Condi DPS, a (in this case) condi Weaver is almost 5K in front of (between brackets () is boss dps) a condi Scourge. And 5K doesnt sound too much, but it's actually about
50%
more dps that the 9.5k dps a Scourge pulls off.
And before anyone starts, I selected the 50th percentile here! In other words, we're looking at the more casual raiders here, not the speedclearers and hardcore raiders which are in the 90th or even 99th percentile
(FYI: these are actually a bit closer together even, which even to my surprise could tell you that a Condi Weaver build is easier to pull off than the Condi Scourge build nowadays, but that's a whole different discussion)While at it, how would a poor performing power dps setup affect condi during split phases on VG given that the red add would die way faster to condi damage while the power dps are still killing their two adds? Is that something which would be reflected in the data?

I was literally just taking the first boss as an example here, but ok, let's take Cairn then ... a condi boss, EASY and should favor anyone that does Torment dmg, cause it's moving all the time (for some strange reason :) ):
IsG7E66.png
As you can see here as well, the Mirage and Weaver are doing
45%
more DPS than a Scourge here!!!

And again, 50th percentile here, not the pro's, but the casuals!

Yes, I wonder why condi scourge is benching so much lower on all the bosses where heal scourge is a very popular pick.

If you are wondering where I am going with this:Looking at data is 1 thing. Actually having experience to make sense of the data is another. You are lacking in 1 of both departments.

and that's without even opening the box of cans that is: this is only successful kill data. Which is a vast issue of itsself when discussing class viability.

Link to post
Share on other sites

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:I see a lot of opinions on these forums (mostly from hearsay or anecdotal proof, I presume) about PvE balance being in a good spot at the moment, while
real
statistics >show that even in a mediocre (50th percentiles) setting, the differences between top and bottom classes are incredibly high, up to 30% 40% or even as much as 50% >difference between say a Mirage or Firebrand and say a Condi Scourge (which has terrible condi DPS atm, and is one of the most difficult to pull off as well now!).And again, I'm not talking about speedclearers (who are generally closer together), I'm talking about a casual/pug setting here!

From what i can tell you from my own experience: The classes are actually decently close in terms of dps. Sure you will have some outliners but thats due to player skill. While there is a Mirage that has 5k more DPS than the Soulbeast, theres also 2 Guardians that have a 5k DPS difference.

Indeed, those are mostly own experiences, and those could be quite cloudy, and always anecdotal. If you look at statistics of 100's of people, say on ... the very first raid boss
:
qdEnwpJ.png
You see that for Condi DPS, a (in this case) condi Weaver is almost 5K in front of (between brackets () is boss dps) a condi Scourge. And 5K doesnt sound too much, but it's actually about
50%
more dps that the 9.5k dps a Scourge pulls off.
And before anyone starts, I selected the 50th percentile here! In other words, we're looking at the more casual raiders here, not the speedclearers and hardcore raiders which are in the 90th or even 99th percentile
(FYI: these are actually a bit closer together even, which even to my surprise could tell you that a Condi Weaver build is easier to pull off than the Condi Scourge build nowadays, but that's a whole different discussion)While at it, how would a poor performing power dps setup affect condi during split phases on VG given that the red add would die way faster to condi damage while the power dps are still killing their two adds? Is that something which would be reflected in the data?

I was literally just taking the first boss as an example here, but ok, let's take Cairn then ... a condi boss, EASY and should favor anyone that does Torment dmg, cause it's moving all the time (for some strange reason :) ):
IsG7E66.png
As you can see here as well, the Mirage and Weaver are doing
45%
more DPS than a Scourge here!!!

And again, 50th percentile here, not the pro's, but the casuals!

Yes, I wonder why condi scourge is benching so much lower on all the bosses where heal scourge is a very popular pick.

This is the condi section, there's a support section where heal scourges come up!

Link to post
Share on other sites

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:I see a lot of opinions on these forums (mostly from hearsay or anecdotal proof, I presume) about PvE balance being in a good spot at the moment, while
real
statistics >show that even in a mediocre (50th percentiles) setting, the differences between top and bottom classes are incredibly high, up to 30% 40% or even as much as 50% >difference between say a Mirage or Firebrand and say a Condi Scourge (which has terrible condi DPS atm, and is one of the most difficult to pull off as well now!).And again, I'm not talking about speedclearers (who are generally closer together), I'm talking about a casual/pug setting here!

From what i can tell you from my own experience: The classes are actually decently close in terms of dps. Sure you will have some outliners but thats due to player skill. While there is a Mirage that has 5k more DPS than the Soulbeast, theres also 2 Guardians that have a 5k DPS difference.

Indeed, those are mostly own experiences, and those could be quite cloudy, and always anecdotal. If you look at statistics of 100's of people, say on ... the very first raid boss
:
qdEnwpJ.png
You see that for Condi DPS, a (in this case) condi Weaver is almost 5K in front of (between brackets () is boss dps) a condi Scourge. And 5K doesnt sound too much, but it's actually about
50%
more dps that the 9.5k dps a Scourge pulls off.
And before anyone starts, I selected the 50th percentile here! In other words, we're looking at the more casual raiders here, not the speedclearers and hardcore raiders which are in the 90th or even 99th percentile
(FYI: these are actually a bit closer together even, which even to my surprise could tell you that a Condi Weaver build is easier to pull off than the Condi Scourge build nowadays, but that's a whole different discussion)While at it, how would a poor performing power dps setup affect condi during split phases on VG given that the red add would die way faster to condi damage while the power dps are still killing their two adds? Is that something which would be reflected in the data?

I was literally just taking the first boss as an example here, but ok, let's take Cairn then ... a condi boss, EASY and should favor anyone that does Torment dmg, cause it's moving all the time (for some strange reason :) ):
IsG7E66.png
As you can see here as well, the Mirage and Weaver are doing
45%
more DPS than a Scourge here!!!

And again, 50th percentile here, not the pro's, but the casuals!

Yes, I wonder why condi scourge is benching so much lower on all the bosses where heal scourge is a very popular pick.

This is the condi section, there's a support section where heal scourges come up!

Right, because the website and algorithm knows where to place which data right? How exactly do you think performance gets placed here? It goes by percentile values, which still means that a very good heal scourge carrying a group could show up in the damage section.

Even if only a few showed up or were misplaced that way, it would cause a shift in data and averages. Enough to discredit any values for classes that have hybrid support specs (EDIT: which by the way, heal/condi scourge is the only one played to larger extent unless you count condi druid in high performance groups).

Link to post
Share on other sites

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:I see a lot of opinions on these forums (mostly from hearsay or anecdotal proof, I presume) about PvE balance being in a good spot at the moment, while
real
statistics >show that even in a mediocre (50th percentiles) setting, the differences between top and bottom classes are incredibly high, up to 30% 40% or even as much as 50% >difference between say a Mirage or Firebrand and say a Condi Scourge (which has terrible condi DPS atm, and is one of the most difficult to pull off as well now!).And again, I'm not talking about speedclearers (who are generally closer together), I'm talking about a casual/pug setting here!

From what i can tell you from my own experience: The classes are actually decently close in terms of dps. Sure you will have some outliners but thats due to player skill. While there is a Mirage that has 5k more DPS than the Soulbeast, theres also 2 Guardians that have a 5k DPS difference.

Indeed, those are mostly own experiences, and those could be quite cloudy, and always anecdotal. If you look at statistics of 100's of people, say on ... the very first raid boss
:
qdEnwpJ.png
You see that for Condi DPS, a (in this case) condi Weaver is almost 5K in front of (between brackets () is boss dps) a condi Scourge. And 5K doesnt sound too much, but it's actually about
50%
more dps that the 9.5k dps a Scourge pulls off.
And before anyone starts, I selected the 50th percentile here! In other words, we're looking at the more casual raiders here, not the speedclearers and hardcore raiders which are in the 90th or even 99th percentile
(FYI: these are actually a bit closer together even, which even to my surprise could tell you that a Condi Weaver build is easier to pull off than the Condi Scourge build nowadays, but that's a whole different discussion)While at it, how would a poor performing power dps setup affect condi during split phases on VG given that the red add would die way faster to condi damage while the power dps are still killing their two adds? Is that something which would be reflected in the data?

I was literally just taking the first boss as an example here, but ok, let's take Cairn then ... a condi boss, EASY and should favor anyone that does Torment dmg, cause it's moving all the time (for some strange reason :) ):
IsG7E66.png
As you can see here as well, the Mirage and Weaver are doing
45%
more DPS than a Scourge here!!!

And again, 50th percentile here, not the pro's, but the casuals!

Yes, I wonder why condi scourge is benching so much lower on all the bosses where heal scourge is a very popular pick.

This is the condi section, there's a support section where heal scourges come up!

Right, because the website and algorithm knows where to place which data right? How exactly do you think performance gets placed here? It goes by percentile values, which still means that a very good heal scourge carrying a group could show up in the damage section.

Even if only a few showed up or were misplaced that way, it would cause a shift in data and averages. Enough to discredit any values for classes that have hybrid support specs (EDIT: which by the way, heal/condi scourge is the only one played to larger extent unless you count condi druid in high performance groups).

Look, I don't care if everyone comes up with ALL kinds of excuses to not really look at real numbers even if they're right in front of them, that's fine with me. I find it even quite loyal towards ANet and GW2 in general ....But the real truth is that balance in the PvE endgame might be better than ever, but is still showing huge gaps between top classes and bottom classes, and to even my surprise is not just at the veteran levels, but also at the more casual/puging levels.

Btw, fyi: this is the case for both condi and power dps! E.g. in most of the power sections, Reapers and Soulbeasts are almost always the bottom of the barrel, and mostly at least by 20% to 30% behind.Edit: for example at:

  • VG: DH and Daredevil do more than >40% DPS than the Reaper at the 50th percentile
  • Gorseval: Weaver, DH and Daredevil all do >20% more DPS than Reaper and Soulbeast at the 50th percentile
  • Sabetha: Weaver and Holosmith do >15% more DPS than Reaper and Berserker at the 50th percentile
  • Sloth: DH and Daredevil do >30% more DPS than Reaper at the 50th percentile
  • etc.
Link to post
Share on other sites

Things to remember when referring to GW2 raidar numbers: it's not very widely used atm as many use dps.report for far wider data analysis while it's also far less likely to report "error" (and GW2raidar was said to go down on July but somehow it's still up and lots of people aren't aware of that). Some classes are also heavily skewed by either being so complicated to play that only very good players use them (like condiweeber) and all top-tier players using the meta dps instead of alternatives on most bosses which greatly bumps up the average for meta dps per boss (like mirage on Cairn). Also, people bringing a class that's particularly bad option for a certain boss are usually way less skilled than those who bring a decent option and that even further widens the difference in averages.

Link to post
Share on other sites

@"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:I was literally just taking the first boss as an example here, but ok, let's take Cairn then ... a condi boss, EASY and should favor anyone that does Torment dmg, cause it's moving all the time (for some strange reason :) ):IsG7E66.pngAs you can see here as well, the Mirage and Weaver are doing 45% more DPS than a Scourge here!!!

And again, 50th percentile here, not the pro's, but the casuals!

Cairn isnt a Condi Boss. Nothing in the fight favors conditions in general. They fixed the torment bug a long time ago.While Confusion is strong there, its not the only reason you take mirages. Mirage has a lot of dodges and blinks, which makes it easy to reposition yourself. If Mirage would be a power spec with proper damage you would probably still play it on cairn.

In your screenshot Im seeing 4 classes being extremly close to each other, a firebrand thats a little lower probably due to quickness and a warrior, also lower due to banners.That leaves the soulbeast and the scourge as outliners. Both classes are recommended for beginners though. Ranger because of the pet and necromancer due to its second healthbar. Does this mean that these specs are bad? Yes. Yes it does. Thats not my point though. You cant just look at numbers and say "Thats just how it is, numbers dont lie" Except that they do. If youd go by numbers condi mirage would have never stepped a foot into raids.

@"Alyster.9470" said:dps meters dont count confusion damage. https://imgur.com/XNyQt6L just look at these numbers and lets talk again.

Self stats are basically correct and area stats are fine on most bosses.While Arc does have problems with conditions, not just confusion, it would be a lie to say that it doesnt count them at all.

Link to post
Share on other sites

@"RaidsAreEasyAF.8652" said:While Confusion is strong there, its not the only reason you take mirages. Mirage has a lot of dodges and blinks, which makes it easy to reposition yourself. If Mirage would be a power spec with proper damage you would probably still play it on cairn.That leaves the soulbeast and the scourge as outliners. Both classes are recommended for beginners though. Ranger because of the pet and necromancer due to its second healthbar. Does this mean that these specs are bad? Yes. Yes it does. Thats not my point though. You cant just look at numbers and say "Thats just how it is, numbers dont lie" Except that they do. If youd go by numbers condi mirage would have never stepped a foot into raids.

i mean confusion is the only reason you take mirages, you don't even move with no greens (the quickest strategy). and if you aren't doing no greens i guess i could see it, but then you have SAK anyway. If you're doing power dps i'd honestly go dragonhunter due to SYG and eat the greens if i panic found myself out of a green and SAK on cooldown.

I'm not entirely sure -i'd- recommend scourge to beginners - in the past, maybe - in the present, it's up there on the least facerollable builds. this is more due to that if you use your skills with reckless abandon you kill yourself with the corruptions if you don't use that one trait right, and using that trait means placing shades which cuts your personal survivability if you don't place them good. And y'know, raid newbies are all about trying to hold onto their tough/vit stat sets for surviving more.

Condition soulbeast is one i would recommend to newbies due to its very simple rotation, and the fact a single trait change and you can double shortbow and press things with wild abandon if you really don't know what you're doing. And mayhaps this even why it's got such bad numbers - as another said, meta and high skill dps classes are usually only played by very talented players who know they can use them- soulbeast is played by a lot of low skill players in part due to the suggestion of it's ease, who are therefore getting low numbers.

Link to post
Share on other sites

@Lexi.1398 said:i mean confusion is the only reason you take mirages, you don't even move with no greens (the quickest strategy). and if you aren't doing no greens i guess i could see it, but then you have SAK anyway. If you're doing power dps i'd honestly go dragonhunter due to SYG and eat the greens if i panic found myself out of a green and SAK on cooldown.

Ports and red circles are a thing tho. Firebrand can probably keep up wit Mirage. PChrono maybe. Its not that much about confusion, even though its really good on cairn.If you really think about it, nothing in the fight makes conditions in general better. If you can think of something feel free to tell me.

I'm not entirely sure -i'd- recommend scourge to beginners - in the past, maybe - in the present, it's up there on the least facerollable builds. this is more due to that if you use your skills with reckless abandon you kill yourself with the corruptions if you don't use that one trait right, and using that trait means placing shades which cuts your personal survivability if you don't place them good. And y'know, raid newbies are all about trying to hold onto their tough/vit stat sets for surviving more.

I meant Necro tho. Necro does have the second healthbar and people frequently recommend it. Its not to far fetched to think that these players will also unlock scoruge/reaper first.

Link to post
Share on other sites

@"RaidsAreEasyAF.8652" said:Ports and red circles are a thing tho. Firebrand can probably keep up wit Mirage. PChrono maybe. Its not that much about confusion, even though its really good on cairn.If you really think about it, nothing in the fight makes conditions in general better. If you can think of something feel free to tell me.

I meant Necro tho. Necro does have the second healthbar and people frequently recommend it. Its not to far fetched to think that these players will also unlock scoruge/reaper first.

The ports which take an age and a half of a very visible animation in the world and on your screen before they go off? You can just...walk a bit to the side and go out of them - no need for any special abilities, or dodging in fact.

I personally didn't say cairn was a condition fight - another poster did that - in general most "condi" fights usually means "confusion and torment fight" - except for dhuum, dhuum is a real condition fight but really, he only slightly favours torment compared to other bosses, and only slightly favours conditions at all.

The numbers were about scourge, reaper has a second health bar, scourge has barrier which since shade changes, only really saves you if you placed your shades right. And if we're talking about reaper that's a whole different thing. I have personally only experienced condi scourge, my experience with reaper is only in open world so i'm not really in a position to say why it ever was suggested. I have heard though, that nowadays it's harder to use than other classes.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Since you guys took easy builds for raiding newbies into topic, Kitty can recommend some.-

(many newbies camp axe longer than just using axe 2 which nerfs their dps to oblivion so just camping GS is better option.)-
-
(just make sure to not get caught in mechs during axe 5)-
(Simpliest build in the whole game.)-
(Kitty's personal dps record at Matt is with this build. Super-simple with superb dps uptime.)-
(so newbies don't mess up the rotation by wrong weapon swap timings)-
(so newbies don't camp scepter too long)-
(Only potential for mess-ups is with Headbutt)-
(Literally faceroll.)-
(Pretty much Renegade-version of shortbow soulbeast)
Link to post
Share on other sites

@Lexi.1398 said:The ports which take an age and a half of a very visible animation in the world and on your screen before they go off? You can just...walk a bit to the side and go out of them - no need for any special abilities, or dodging in fact.

We are talking about no greens, right? You will build up stacks. You will reach 99 stacks at roughly 50 seconds into the fight. That means a really good group will have to deal with 99 stacks (basically unable to move except for the SAK) for about 15 seconds. You see how a class that has evades and blinks (and superspeed a few months ago) is good on this, right?

The numbers were about scourge, reaper has a second health bar, scourge has barrier which since shade changes, only really saves you if you placed your shades right. And if we're talking about reaper that's a whole different thing. I have personally only experienced condi scourge, my experience with reaper is only in open world so i'm not really in a position to say why it ever was suggested. I have heard though, that nowadays it's harder to use than other classes.

Yes, the numbers were about scourge. I said necromancer is one of the classes usually recommended for beginners. That means, that beginners are probably going to either unlock Scourge or Reaper as their first elite spec, right? Thats could be one explenation on why these classes are so much lower.

Link to post
Share on other sites

@RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

@Lexi.1398 said:The ports which take an age and a half of a very visible animation in the world and on your screen before they go off? You can just...walk a bit to the side and go out of them - no need for any special abilities, or dodging in fact.

We are talking about no greens, right? You will build up stacks. You will reach 99 stacks at roughly 50 seconds into the fight. That means a really good group will have to deal with 99 stacks (basically unable to move except for the SAK) for about 15 seconds. You see how a class that has evades and blinks (and superspeed a few months ago) is good on this, right?To be heard, as long as you can see the teleport circles and you have swiftness, you can easily walk out of them even at 99 stacks. 99 stacks only becomes a problem if the squad can't get enough swiftness due to supports providing low/no swiftness. (happens with many druids in LFG squads and it's painful when it does)

The numbers were about scourge, reaper has a second health bar, scourge has barrier which since shade changes, only really saves you if you placed your shades right. And if we're talking about reaper that's a whole different thing. I have personally only experienced condi scourge, my experience with reaper is only in open world so i'm not really in a position to say why it ever was suggested. I have heard though, that nowadays it's harder to use than other classes.

Yes, the numbers were about scourge. I said necromancer is one of the classes usually recommended for beginners. That means, that beginners are probably going to either unlock Scourge or Reaper as their first elite spec, right? Thats could be one explenation on why these classes are so much lower.

Casuals who have never played GW2 before often choose necromancer since it's easy, durable and minions can tank everything for them and that obviously leads to them starting raiding as reapers and scourges, often with a random mix of exotic gears or soldier's exotics until they're teached about proper raiding gears.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...