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The Whole Raid Meta Consists of 2 Classes


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Not to mention that the Reaper and it's style in particular seems to speak to a lot of players who prefer dark and edgy "stuff".

These long frames of rather stale METAs wouldn't feel as bad if the content releases were far more frequent. No new builds to try and play while you have to replay the same content over and over again is certainly a pretty bad combination of issues.

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Granted the common patern on how thing goes when a profession tend to take over most if not all dps spots on boss with specific scenario, both the mesmer and the guardian will probably enter a round of nerf for PvE (whether it's justified or not). After all that's what happened to the elementalists that had great advantage on large target due to "impact" skills and to the necromancer on targets with adds due to epidemic.

I don't see why players would protest about hypothetic nerfs to the mesmer and guardian when all the arguments justifying such nerfs have already been written when the community thought it was necessary to nerf the necromancer's skill epidemic.

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@"Dadnir.5038" said:Granted the common patern on how thing goes when a profession tend to take over most if not all dps spots on boss with specific scenario, both the mesmer and the guardian will probably enter a round of nerf for PvE (whether it's justified or not). After all that's what happened to the elementalists that had great advantage on large target due to "impact" skills and to the necromancer on targets with adds due to epidemic.

I don't see why players would protest about hypothetic nerfs to the mesmer and guardian when all the arguments justifying such nerfs have already been written when the community thought it was necessary to nerf the necromancer's skill epidemic.

That was necro though. The majority of the raiding community wants necro to be always last dps. Just remember, necro stacking is bad even when only statics did it. Guardian/mesmer stacking is fine though since.. well because only statics do it so yeah, double standards.Dragonhunter or firebrand have even super high dps on their own and dont need to rely on fmw to be relevant. Power chrono just needs danger time to work with another condition instead of slow and it would be great even without timewarp. Feel my wrath just needs a heavy nerf but i have no idea how timewarp could be changed. You dont even need any! additional boon duration on fb to apply perma quickness in fractals. You can even go with only dh on some bosses thanks to moa stance and power creeped <15sec phases. But sure dh is fine. Quickness fb outdamages multiple dps specs in fractals btw like holo or thief.

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I dont see the reason why people are angry about this, I mean, the always whining part of community was crying to do something with FB because its only god tier in PvP/WvW, now FB is that strong that no other class can compete, also the same kind of people were crying that OMG weaver is too hard and I dont have time to learn etc... So ANet buffed the second most tankiest DPS class to its limits so now DPSing is even more braindead.So i guess congrats to everyone who tought chaos chrono is OP

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@"Nepster.4275" said:I dont see the reason why people are angry about this, I mean, the always whining part of community was crying to do something with FB because its only god tier in PvP/WvW, now FB is that strong that no other class can compete, also the same kind of people were crying that OMG weaver is too hard and I dont have time to learn etc... So ANet buffed the second most tankiest DPS class to its limits so now DPSing is even more braindead.So i guess congrats to everyone who tought chaos chrono is OP

I dont think those are the same people.People arent "crying" because firebrand is strong. People are "crying" because you dont need a dedicated support for perma quickness. This is not a Firebrand Problem. This is a problem with Feel my Wrath and to some extent timewarp.

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@RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

@"Nepster.4275" said:I dont see the reason why people are angry about this, I mean, the always whining part of community was crying to do something with FB because its only god tier in PvP/WvW, now FB is that strong that no other class can compete, also the same kind of people were crying that OMG weaver is too hard and I dont have time to learn etc... So ANet buffed the second most tankiest DPS class to its limits so now DPSing is even more braindead.So i guess congrats to everyone who tought chaos chrono is OP

I dont think those are the same people.People arent "crying" because firebrand is strong. People are "crying" because you dont need a dedicated support for perma quickness. This is not a Firebrand Problem. This is a problem with Feel my Wrath and to some extent timewarp.

So you think the only problem is FMW? Not the thing that firebrand is basically doing more DPS and supporting(not with only quickness) than most of the "dedicated" DPS classes like holo or thief as said above? And also, I said people WERE crying when fb wasnt like now.But i think you are right about that its not a firebrand problem, its a guardian problem, since that one class cover all(minus alac) the endgame roles as either DH or FB. Sadly I can not recall any class being able to do the same as guardian can now in the past 2 years. And am not crying about this, its a fact that guardian is broken to its core, but atleast i dont need more than one class for raids and fractals.

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@Nepster.4275 said:

@Nepster.4275 said:I dont see the reason why people are angry about this, I mean, the always whining part of community was crying to do something with FB because its only god tier in PvP/WvW, now FB is that strong that no other class can compete, also the same kind of people were crying that OMG weaver is too hard and I dont have time to learn etc... So ANet buffed the second most tankiest DPS class to its limits so now DPSing is even more braindead.So i guess congrats to everyone who tought chaos chrono is OP

I dont think those are the same people.People arent "crying" because firebrand is strong. People are "crying" because you dont need a dedicated support for perma quickness. This is not a Firebrand Problem. This is a problem with Feel my Wrath and to some extent timewarp.

So you think the only problem is FMW? Not the thing that firebrand is basically doing more DPS and supporting(not with only quickness) than most of the "dedicated" DPS classes like holo or thief as said above? And also, I said people WERE crying when fb wasnt like now.But i think you are right about that its not a firebrand problem, its a guardian problem, since that one class cover all(minus alac) the endgame roles as either DH or FB. Sadly I can not recall any class being able to do the same as guardian can now in the past 2 years. And am not crying about this, its a fact that guardian is broken to its core, but atleast i dont need more than one class for raids and fractals.

Fun fact: firebrand was actually even stronger support before, but they've nerfed it for WvW reasons. People just were too obsessed with chrono to notice it and here we are, chrono nerfed a LOT and firebrand still being ridiculously good support.

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The thing is you don't need to run meta. Our guild runs raids with all classes and squad composition changes all the time depending on who is online. The main thing is knowing your classes and running a proper raid build (which doesn't have to be meta either). We'd rather have a less than optimal composition made of people that play their class well than forcing people to play a class they aren't proficient at to fit into some meta. Players who are more comfortable with their build are less likely to get hit by mechanics that can wipe the group.

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@"Bassdeff.1895" said:The thing is you don't need to run meta. Our guild runs raids with all classes and squad composition changes all the time depending on who is online. The main thing is knowing your classes and running a proper raid build (which doesn't have to be meta either). We'd rather have a less than optimal composition made of people that play their class well than forcing people to play a class they aren't proficient at to fit into some meta. Players who are more comfortable with their build are less likely to get hit by mechanics that can wipe the group.

Maybe, but it is sad if your squadmates can play all classes and they still "have to" use only 2

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@Nepster.4275 said:

@Nepster.4275 said:I dont see the reason why people are angry about this, I mean, the always whining part of community was crying to do something with FB because its only god tier in PvP/WvW, now FB is that strong that no other class can compete, also the same kind of people were crying that OMG weaver is too hard and I dont have time to learn etc... So ANet buffed the second most tankiest DPS class to its limits so now DPSing is even more braindead.So i guess congrats to everyone who tought chaos chrono is OP

I dont think those are the same people.People arent "crying" because firebrand is strong. People are "crying" because you dont need a dedicated support for perma quickness. This is not a Firebrand Problem. This is a problem with Feel my Wrath and to some extent timewarp.

So you think the only problem is FMW? Not the thing that firebrand is basically doing more DPS and supporting(not with only quickness) than most of the "dedicated" DPS classes like holo or thief as said above? And also, I said people WERE crying when fb wasnt like now.But i think you are right about that its not a firebrand problem, its a guardian problem, since that one class cover all(minus alac) the endgame roles as either DH or FB. Sadly I can not recall any class being able to do the same as guardian can now in the past 2 years. And am not crying about this, its a fact that guardian is broken to its core, but atleast i dont need more than one class for raids and fractals.

While I agree Quickbrand's DPS is on the high end (especially cQB), if it out dps's your dedicated DPS players, then they are playing badly.Holo especially should be about 10-15k DPS ahead of Quickbrand, as it's actually quite competitive with even a full DPS DH, way ahead of Quickbrand, especially Power QB, as run in Fractals.

Same for Thief really, although it's not as welcome in Fractals in general.

That said, I personally see Guardian more as the gold standard of balance and variety of roles that the balance team should aim to reach with other classes, rather than it being squashed on Guard.

But clearly the issue with these stacking comps is mainly access to quickness and the ability to provide it without dedicated support, which is hard to fix without destroying the Quickness functionality altogether. If you nerf access to Quickness, it just means you need to stack more of the few classes that can provide it, even with BD, leading to more Guards and Mesmers being stacked.An alternative could be giving more classes some personal Quickness access akin to power Reaper and Soulbeast etc., as to not require a support to provide 100% uptime, which in turn could make room to nerf some of these group Quickness providers without making them ineffective altogether.

Just like with the Epimancer stacking I'm afraid of overnerfs here as well though. If they just nerf the base duration of quickness of FMW by 50%, they are just deleting that skill/strategy, even though 95%+ of players aren't even using it, and it's completely fine and actually easier to just run a dedicated support providing Quickness, with everyone else being able to play any DPS they want to.I just don't see whatever a few top guilds like SC do as a problem.

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@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:I think that easiest fix is diferent scaling with BD. Also quickness chrono is at 22-23k dps. Almost the same as power quickbrand (23k). While providing boons to other subsquad too. Hybrids like tjose 2 are not a problem. Problems are dps classes that provide permanent boins with almost no losses like fmw stacking.

Sure, but they don't do so on their own, they do so by stacking. If you nerf the source of the Quickness they stack, you also nerf the capability of a single hybrid or dedicated support to provide that Boon.

How would that scale differently with BD? How would the game know if you are playing a otherwise full dps cFB with FMW, a condi Quickbrand with FMW or full support FB with FMW?BD only scales with base duration, so the lower the base quickness duration, the worse it scales with BD. The higher the base duration, the better it scales with BD on a dedicated support, but at the same time, the easier it is to cover without any BD at all by just stacking full DPS's with the skill.

If you nerf FMW, sure you may remove the viability of stacking full DPS DH's or FB's running it to provide quickness, which is only done in extremely niche groups and imo not necessary, but at the same time that may then require actually running more Guards or Mesmers on top of a Quickbrand or Quickness chrono to substitute that loss, actually making those professions more stacked for the vast majority of groups, achieving the opposite of what people are complaining about here.

So either we are fine with those niche groups stacking these professions, or these Quickness sources on these professions would have to be nerfed and substituted by (preferably personal) Quickness on most other professions, to prevent those few group Quickness sources from being stacked even more, this time even more so across the game.

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Quickness and Alacrity are godly boons and are more important than any other boon at the moment in the PvE endgame. You can indeed change a lot of skills that supply it and/or add it to many other professions to make it more balanced, or you can apply an imo easy fix:Quickness: increases attack and action speeds by 33% (instead of 50%). (PvE only)Alacrity: increases the rate at which skills recharge by 15% (instead of 25%). (PvE only)

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@Asum.4960 said:

@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:I think that easiest fix is diferent scaling with BD. Also quickness chrono is at 22-23k dps. Almost the same as power quickbrand (23k). While providing boons to other subsquad too. Hybrids like tjose 2 are not a problem. Problems are dps classes that provide permanent boins with almost no losses like fmw stacking.

Sure, but they don't do so on their own, they do so by stacking. If you nerf the source of the Quickness they stack, you also nerf the capability of a single hybrid or dedicated support to provide that Boon.

How would that scale differently with BD? How would the game know if you are playing a otherwise full dps cFB with FMW, a condi Quickbrand with FMW or full support FB with FMW?BD only scales with base duration, so the lower the base quickness duration, the worse it scales with BD. The higher the base duration, the better it scales with BD on a dedicated support, but at the same time, the easier it is to cover without any BD at all by just stacking full DPS's with the skill.

If you nerf FMW, sure you may remove the viability of stacking full DPS DH's or FB's running it to provide quickness, which is only done in extremely niche groups and imo not necessary, but at the same time that may then require actually running more Guards or Mesmers on top of a Quickbrand or Quickness chrono to substitute that loss, actually making those professions more stacked for the vast majority of groups, achieving the opposite of what people are complaining about here.

So either we are fine with those niche groups stacking these professions, or these Quickness sources on these professions would have to be nerfed and substituted by (preferably personal) Quickness on most other professions, to prevent those few group Quickness sources from being stacked even more, this time even more so across the game.

Diferent scaling means that each 1 percent BD increse the duration of quickness from fmw by 2 percent. That way it can be more efective if you have higher BD and less efective if you have none.

If you nerf fmw and buff quickness traits on firebrand, nothing will change for firebrand but DH stacking will be gone because there arent spots left for more DHs in squad.

And I know that FB stacking would stay but that is good only on few fights (sabetha comes to mind) and that isnt a problem. DH stacking on 70% of bosses is.

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I would be careful not to confuse single class and team comp, what you see on Snow Crows website are the strongest teamcomp to defeat bosses, and all there is to it really is to reduce boon duration so that you can play a full dps comp. However those are not the classes doing the most dps on those bosses with the exception of Guardian/DH/FB who would actually really need a nerf as it's completely overpowered atm. I'm fine with firebrigade memes, but when the Firebrand is able to pull out more than 25k target dps on some specific bosses that's way too high, there is no way that boon chrono is able to do that almost except on short fights.

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@tim.4596 said:I would be careful not to confuse single class and team comp, what you see on Snow Crows website are the strongest teamcomp to defeat bosses, and all there is to it really is to reduce boon duration so that you can play a full dps comp. However those are not the classes doing the most dps on those bosses with the exception of Guardian/DH/FB who would actually really need a nerf as it's completely overpowered atm. I'm fine with firebrigade memes, but when the Firebrand is able to pull out more than 25k target dps on some specific bosses that's way too high, there is no way that boon chrono is able to do that almost except on short fights.

Those 2 classes are recomended basicaly on 75% of fights. The combination of high dps, heal skill that let them ignore mechanics, utility (mostly firebrand case) and option to give quickness for minor dps loss is why they are too strong atm.

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Well I said that a few weeks prior to the thread start the whole game is dominated by heavy classes so I called that 'heavy metal meta'. This came because people complained constantly about the high risk high gain builds aka staff ele and about Druid and Chrono ... DHs dps isn't that crazy good but that you can give a bit of quickness even as DH and your are not downed so easy like an Swordweaver also DH don't need the 100% uptime of quickness and alac so much which the Swordweaver needs.

You talked about raids but well in fractals its the same FB, 2xDH, BS(warrior),Renegade. Reaper as DPS are used also often in CMS and some staff Deardevil after that comes Swordweaver and then Holo the rest you never see.

One point of Warrior , DH and Reaper is also they have close proximity aoes(and Reaper also bigger/farer) which have a instead dps rampage comparing this with staff Weaver even with higher dps output again the build can't compete staff Weavers burst takes 2-3 s to build up through its nature of spell damage those other builds have the max burst dmg after 0-1 sec. Okay this is very specific but you have this situation often in the old fractals where a limited number of minions close are around you.

The other problematic thing is because Berserker Warriors DPS got so high some refuse to do the ball at the sec boss in 100cm which means rev has to do that and that means little alac up time for the other DPS builds....

The only place I know where the meta swaps is in sirens reef last boss staff weaver is actually better here then all the mentioned classes except Reaper, equal it is in 'Not Categorized' stacking at the console at the first encounter. (- thief and swordweaver).

Because someone mentioned it swordweaver isn't that hard okay those 37k dps are hard to get to but 33-34k on the golem is doable problematic is that the FB needs to do his/her job perfectly because I'm going melee a lot of FB saving their boons too much giving ageis, protection and stabi on major mechanics is needed. Yes I started to play swordweaver recently after the 'I can swap my weapons' I felt forced to start playing it. In summary : I love the dps but I hate the build itself sword is the least mage like from all the weapons ele has and you have a lot of suicide skills with this build

Viewed on core in wvw all those mentioned classes comes up again in wvw as zerg builds but now : FB, Herold, Scourge, Scrapper, Spellbreaker , less but also Heal Tempest and Staff Weaver and some who use the newer meta also Renegade.

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