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The Whole Raid Meta Consists of 2 Classes


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@Lord of the Fire.6870 said:You talked about raids but well in fractals its the same FB, 2xDH, BS(warrior),Renegade. Reaper as DPS are used also often in CMS and some staff Deardevil after that comes Swordweaver and then Holo the rest you never see.

Meta in cms is actually fb, slb, weaver, warr + ren. Holo is trash in instanced pve unless you like the music exploit. It brings nothing to the group except mediocre dps. 4dh +ren or fb + 2dh, warr, ren are also really good in fractals. Again guard stacking.

The other problematic thing is because Berserker Warriors DPS got so high some refuse to do the ball at the sec boss in 100cm which means rev has to do that and that means little alac up time for the other DPS builds....

DH suffers as much as weaver from low alac. Ren usually shares once in middle and once before first ball so uptime should be ok unless dps is super low. You can also just skip the ball with high dps.The only place I know where the meta swaps is in sirens reef last boss staff weaver is actually better here then all the mentioned classes except Reaper, equal it is in 'Not Categorized' stacking at the console at the first encounter. (- thief and swordweaver).

Not really. Boss has a small hitbox so staff weaver does no dmg. Condi fb is the most broken spec here. Insane cleave and reflects for days on top. Weaver and dh have so high dmg that its usually enough though.

Currently, well for almost the entire last year guardian is just beyond broken in pve. It has top level burst, support, cleave, sustain and sustained dps. On condi and power builds. I mean they even buffed sword recently god knows why.How to balance guard in fractals. Cut dps by 7-10%. Remove signet share. Cut quickness base durations by like 30% total so guards need boon duration on gear for perma quickness. Fix dh traps, the only traps which dont disappear when you swap the utility after placing them. Nerf feel my wrath HARD. Some encounters are done without a fb at all and just a dh with feel my wrath thanks to 66% boon duration from moa stance.Feel my wrath is 80% of timewarp while it has 25% of its cd. Its even way stronger than tw because of how boon stacks work. Changing fmw to short pulsing quickness would already help a lot.

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@Asum.4960 said:That said, I personally see Guardian more as the gold standard of balance and variety of roles that the balance team should aim to reach with other classes, rather than it being squashed on Guard.

A good standard of balance includes weaknesses, guardian has none to maybe one. Dh dps is bad when you can't go inside a hitbox but there is still fb to use. Top level support + top level dps shouldnt be the balance goal.Reaper for example can't be played at all in high pressure fights thanks to garbage shroud mechanic. Guardian is just overloaded. Btw on adina dh stack is optimal without even bringing any quickness. Guard is strong even as full dps but you get the best heal ingame + groupwide blocks + heal without any dps loss. Fb can even give stab without losing a single slot. Meanwhile engi and necro have lower damage and bring nothing.

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@Nephalem.8921 said:

@Lord of the Fire.6870 said:You talked about raids but well in fractals its the same FB, 2xDH, BS(warrior),Renegade. Reaper as DPS are used also often in CMS and some staff Deardevil after that comes Swordweaver and then Holo the rest you never see.

Meta in cms is actually fb, slb, weaver, warr + ren. Holo is trash in instanced pve unless you like the music exploit. It brings nothing to the group except mediocre dps. 4dh +ren or fb + 2dh, warr, ren are also really good in fractals. Again guard stacking.

The other problematic thing is because Berserker Warriors DPS got so high some refuse to do the ball at the sec boss in 100cm which means rev has to do that and that means little alac up time for the other DPS builds....

DH suffers as much as weaver from low alac. Ren usually shares once in middle and once before first ball so uptime should be ok unless dps is super low. You can also just skip the ball with high dps.The only place I know where the meta swaps is in sirens reef last boss staff weaver is actually better here then all the mentioned classes except Reaper, equal it is in 'Not Categorized' stacking at the console at the first encounter. (- thief and swordweaver).

Not really.
Boss has a small hitbox so staff weaver does no dmg.
Condi fb is the most broken spec here. Insane cleave and reflects for days on top. Weaver and dh have so high dmg that its usually enough though.

Currently, well for almost the entire last year guardian is just beyond broken in pve. It has top level burst, support, cleave, sustain and sustained dps. On condi and power builds. I mean they even buffed sword recently god knows why.How to balance guard in fractals. Cut dps by 7-10%. Remove signet share. Cut quickness base durations by like 30% total so guards need boon duration on gear for perma quickness. Fix dh traps, the only traps which dont disappear when you swap the utility after placing them. Nerf feel my wrath HARD. Some encounters are done without a fb at all and just a dh with feel my wrath thanks to 66% boon duration from moa stance.Feel my wrath is 80% of timewarp while it has 25% of its cd. Its even way stronger than tw because of how boon stacks work. Changing fmw to short pulsing quickness would already help a lot.

Well I run staff in Sirens Reef and doing nearly 50% of the damage of my team on multiply occasion. The reason for this is I'm killing the trash mobs with MS which otherwise would overrun us. Doing less dmg on the boss isn't a bad thing here because the trash mops spawning every 1.5%? HP of the boss or so. The mechanics and the trash mops are the danger on this boss not the boss itself because of this having big aoes helps a lot in this fractals. It basically an anti-meta the root of this is in this MMO unlike many I played before trash mops can be ignored especially in fractals try that in a other MMO and the trash mops hunt you to the end of the dungeon and will kill you. The whole meta is build on the idea there isn't a lot of trash mobs and if there you can ignore them.(or take as much time as you like)

In the theory you can do it like you said but its takes a lot of dmg and the boss moves 3 x times .. in this time the trash mobs can spawn soyou have to be really good for this.

About the Guard I can mostly agree but the total quickness duration I don't see as heal FB so high ?

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@Lord of the Fire.6870 said:Well I run staff in Sirens Reef and doing nearly 50% of the damage of my team on multiply occasion. The reason for this is I'm killing the trash mobs with MS which otherwise would overrun us. Doing less dmg on the boss isn't a bad thing here because the trash mops spawning every 1.5%? HP of the boss or so. The mechanics and the trash mops are the danger on this boss not the boss itself because of this having big aoes helps a lot in this fractals. It basically an anti-meta the root of this is in this MMO unlike many I played before trash mops can be ignored especially in fractals try that in a other MMO and the trash mops hunt you to the end of the dungeon and will kill you. The whole meta is build on the idea there isn't a lot of trash mobs and if there you can ignore them.(or take as much time as you like)

The trash attacks only with projectiles except for the quarter master who move up to you. This means that you take 0 dmg if reflect is up and cfb has more than 50% reflect uptime. Renegade can also resistance share to make everyone immune to conditions. The boss just dies in seconds to the average cm group especially if you have some of those balanced dhs who could even swap to firebrand to make it even more faceroll.In the theory you can do it like you said but its takes a lot of dmg and the boss moves 3 x times .. in this time the trash mobs can spawn soyou have to be really good for this.

Knowing how to burst doesnt mean very good. The skill difference is just really big because of bad stats/builds dps difference can be a few 100%. This doesn't happen in other mmos since wow for example removed talent trees and it has personal loot so useless builds are impossible. The builds there are just suboptimal but nowhere near as useless as what people play in the normal t4 groups. Rotation in gw2 are also not hard but can make a 50%+ difference easily.As soon as everyone knows how to dps stuff just dies in seconds. Some bosses even have below 3sec phases. And this isnt even hard to accomplish with dhs since they have insane burst and are super safe to play.

About the Guard I can mostly agree but the total quickness duration I don't see as heal FB so high ?Heal fb doesnt even need to take all quickness skills for perma with just like 60-70% boon duration. Thats how broken it is. This frees a support slot for stability or in power quickness fb's case allows it to not take any boon duration at all because he takes all quickness skills and the duration from potions is enough. And this allows the team to run NO quickness support on some cm bosses. A single dh with fmw and moa stance is enough. That dh will also outdamage DD, holos, reapers and so on while providing perma quickness and he even buffs the entire party with 218power.

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@"LadyKitty.6120" said:... Some classes are also heavily skewed by either being so complicated to play that only very good players use them (like condiweeber)This seems to be a stigma (fueled by SC even) that will probably NEVER go away, but this is actually a false statement! From those same statistics, you can see that Condi Weaver differences between the 50th percentile (the casuals) and 99th/90th percentile (the pro's/veterans), is actually quite close to each other (compared to other classes that mostly are widely known as "easy to play"). This indicates by statistics that Condi Weaver DPS is not that difficult to pull off. And if you play it yourself, you will probably know this as well, cause the condi rotation, though complex is also quite forgiving. The punishment isn't that huge when you miss a beat (or are delayed), compared to other classes. But still, don't take it from me, I'm just one player with an opinion, take it from real statistics, and so should ANet!

Sorry for being a bit offtopic here and grabbing back to an ages old post. But to relate it back to the topic at hand, it still says something about the balance in the PvE endgame which is imo still not that great (while better than ever, but hey), and though I understand the focus from the balance team on WvW and PvP currently, I really think the PvE endgame should receive some love as well in the balancing area!

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@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

@"LadyKitty.6120" said:... Some classes are also heavily skewed by either being so complicated to play that only very good players use them (like condiweeber)This seems to be a stigma (fueled by SC even) that will probably NEVER go away, but this is actually a false statement! From those same statistics, you can see that Condi Weaver differences between the 50th percentile (the casuals) and 99th/90th percentile (the pro's/veterans), is actually quite close to each other (compared to other classes that mostly are widely known as "easy to play"). This indicates
by statistics
that Condi Weaver DPS is not
that
difficult to pull off. And if you play it yourself, you will probably know this as well, cause the condi rotation, though complex is also quite forgiving. The punishment isn't that huge when you miss a beat (or are delayed), compared to other classes. But still, don't take it from me, I'm just
one
player with an opinion, take it from real statistics, and so should ANet!

Sorry for being a bit offtopic here and grabbing back to an ages old post. But to relate it back to the topic at hand, it still says
something
about the balance in the PvE endgame which is imo still not that great (while better than ever, but hey), and though I understand the focus from the balance team on WvW and PvP currently, I really think the PvE endgame should receive some love as well in the balancing area!

Kitty didn't mean that the data would be skewed within the profession itself but profession vs other professions.

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"meta" as in "what snowcrows lists as an optimal squad composition"?It actually doesn't matter at all -just because certain builds have an edge in raids under perfect circumstances doesn't change the fact that all of those raids can be EASLY done with other class/build compositions. It's not a competitive mode, the "meta" doesn't matter until everyone in the game is stupid enough to actually demand snowcrow squad comps from general playerbase. Which isn't the case and has no reason to be the case. So... who cares.

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@"Sobx.1758" said:"meta" as in "what snowcrows lists as an optimal squad composition"?It actually doesn't matter at all -just because certain builds have an edge in raids under perfect circumstances doesn't change the fact that all of those raids can be EASLY done with other class/build compositions. It's not a competitive mode, the "meta" doesn't matter until everyone in the game is stupid enough to actually demand snowcrow squad comps from general playerbase. Which isn't the case and has no reason to be the case. So... who cares.

Do u even raid? Lot of bosses are about stacking dh or mirage, but they fit perfectly even if u dont stack em.

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@Safandula.8723 said:

@"Sobx.1758" said:"meta" as in "what snowcrows lists as an optimal squad composition"?It actually doesn't matter at all -just because certain builds have an edge in raids under perfect circumstances doesn't change the fact that all of those raids can be EASLY done with other class/build compositions. It's not a competitive mode, the "meta" doesn't matter until everyone in the game is stupid enough to actually demand snowcrow squad comps from general playerbase. Which isn't the case and has no reason to be the case. So... who cares.

Do u even raid? Lot of bosses are about stacking dh or mirage, but they fit perfectly even if u dont stack em.

Did you understand what I wrote?

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@Sobx.1758 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:"meta" as in "what snowcrows lists as an optimal squad composition"?It actually doesn't matter at all -just because certain builds have an edge in raids under perfect circumstances doesn't change the fact that all of those raids can be EASLY done with other class/build compositions. It's not a competitive mode, the "meta" doesn't matter until everyone in the game is stupid enough to actually demand snowcrow squad comps from general playerbase. Which isn't the case and has no reason to be the case. So... who cares.

Do u even raid? Lot of bosses are about stacking dh or mirage, but they fit perfectly even if u dont stack em.

Did you understand what I wrote?

Yea that, comps mentioned by SC , are not Going to always work in pug groups. But u didnt understand, that even if u play those classes, and ur party wont be playing that good, u Will still perform decently.Thats the Main issue about guards and mesmers

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@Safandula.8723 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:"meta" as in "what snowcrows lists as an optimal squad composition"?It actually doesn't matter at all -just because certain builds have an edge in raids under perfect circumstances doesn't change the fact that all of those raids can be EASLY done with other class/build compositions. It's not a competitive mode, the "meta" doesn't matter until everyone in the game is stupid enough to actually demand snowcrow squad comps from general playerbase. Which isn't the case and has no reason to be the case. So... who cares.

Do u even raid? Lot of bosses are about stacking dh or mirage, but they fit perfectly even if u dont stack em.

Did you understand what I wrote?

Yea that, comps mentioned by SC , are not Going to always work in pug groups.

No, that's not what I said.

But u didnt understand, that even if u play those classes, and ur party wont be playing that good, u Will still perform decently.Thats the Main issue about guards and mesmers

What I said is that SC lists optimal (according to their testing) team comps, which then some people will call "meta". The thing here is that RB per-class-dps doesn't need to be perfectly optimalized, because it's not a competitive mode, but rather a co-op one. The fact that some builds or comps perform slightly better than others doesn't matter, because the line of successfully completing each ride is actually much lower than the perfect run with perfect team comp. From what I see people don't really demand perfect SC-suggested team comps in lfgs and there's no reason for them to do that, because you don't need listed comps to still comfortably/easly succeed in raids. Unless suddenly everyone demands a specific SC-suggested (or, per this thread: "meta") comps, I don't see the problem. It really doesn't matter if you're able to outdps another teamcomp and kill the boss 30 seconds earlier.

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@"Sobx.1758" said:The fact that some builds or comps perform slightly betterjust checked sc site. every boss except of qadim 1 and 2, is about stacking dh/ condi fb / p chrono / c mirage, with additions of ranger/bs/something else. Its rly not a problem for u, considering these classes still perform decently alone? yea u can have good results with other specs, but its super clear, there is a "little" balance problems in case of "some" classes.same in fractals, while meta use bs/weaver/ slb/ fb(dh on fast kills)/ rene, 80% of pugs just use dh becouse of how efficient and safe it is. so seems like dh has top tier burst, as well as sustained dps. oh and party utility and boon generation, on top of how easy it is to play

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@Safandula.8723 said:

@"Sobx.1758" said:The fact that some builds or comps perform slightly betterjust checked sc site. every boss except of qadim 1 and 2, is about stacking dh/ condi fb / p chrono / c mirage, with additions of ranger/bs/something else.

Ok, but how does it change in any way what I said?

Its rly not a problem for u, considering these classes still perform decently alone? yea u can have good results with other specs, but its super clear, there is a "little" balance problems in case of "some" classes.same in fractals, while meta use bs/weaver/ slb/ fb(dh on fast kills)/ rene, 80% of pugs just use dh becouse of how efficient and safe it is. so seems like dh has top tier burst, as well as sustained dps. oh and party utility and boon generation, on top of how easy it is to play

Yup, it's not a problem for me, I'm not playing builds that fit the SC-listed comps and I have no problem with finding pub groups. Why would I be so bent over it? What does it matter that you can kill the boss slightly faster in "x comp"? Unless everyone strictly requires everyone to play the specific team comps "because SC said so", I don't see the issue.

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@"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:Quickness and Alacrity are godly boons and are more important than any other boon at the moment in the PvE endgame. You can indeed change a lot of skills that supply it and/or add it to many other professions to make it more balanced, or you can apply an imo easy fix:Quickness: increases attack and action speeds by 33% (instead of 50%). (PvE only)Alacrity: increases the rate at which skills recharge by 15% (instead of 25%). (PvE only)

That is not the problem also they nerfed it multiply times every time they nerf it rotas and build get destroyed. The problem lies more in how build vairy in DPS and how the community use that and react to this.

One site is we have underpowered build in PvE like Holo, Soulbeast, then you have build like S/H Tempest which are good in raids but not in fractals, then you have build which seems only good for PvP/wvw like Scourge and Scrapper then you have build which got completely destroyed like Chrono or Staff Weaver/Tempest.

From my perspective that build under perform has to a lot do with the minimi against build which have high risk high gain. Which then let the build/class higher perform then the others which then pump them up then on the top of the meta and as healer support is how much you can help increasing the DPS.

On the other side you have then pushed for build which have high gain and low risk namely DH and Berserker(Warrior) but also for build like Swordweaver which have high gain and an even higher risk, The joke on the last part is people start learning these build and then people start complain again how dominant the build in the meta is with out considering how hard it really is.

DH&FB has the problem how good the synergy is with itself is and how you can pre stack boons in fractals. Which in itself is a huge problem mentioned in some threads.

I will give some example on B2 99CM what you can do :

1.) Sigil of Serpent Slaying +7% dmg

  1. )Powerful Potion of Krait Slaying +10% dmg - 10% incoming dmg3.) Fractal God Title +7% dmg4.) Fractal Potions :The bonus given by each potion is as follows:

    Mist Offensive - Bonus to precisionMist Defensive - Bonus to toughnessMist Mobility - Bonus to concentration

A player with 150 agony resistance and five stacks of a potion will gain 225 of its respective attribute.To be clear this allow you to run with berserker gear or not with precision food where SC raid guides say you must. It also reduce the amount of built in boon duration.DPS increase alone should be are around 5-7% again5.) -10% incoming dmg with ascended food

Even with these insane modifiers Arena.NET came and said this is not enough NO SIR WE NEED MORE DPS we need so much DPS that even trolls feel trolled xD(black humour) . What we do is we allow the players to rest their skills manually with GG and the mistlock

6.) Stack boons as FB switch to DH and then reset +~ 1000% dmg or +20% group dmg7.) Renegade overstack boons means give the boons out rest do it again and then switch a lot of diviner gear to berserker +~20-30% dmg8) Warrior prestack banners rest skills and then go with dps skills +~20% dmg9) But there is now a problem the DPS phase on the boss is now even shorter then walk to the mobs/ads in the phases okay sine Arena.NET allowing this lets use the portals generator out of the raids here at least for the first phase.

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