Anyone else excited for more Kas and Jory?

[Aaron Ansari.1604]

Personally, I'm a fan of the Kas/Jory relationship in part because the characters have so little going for them outside of it. Kasmeer had a few good moments in this expansion, but her character arc fell pretty flat, and that's without counting how it was over and done with before the second half of the story. The last time we saw Marjory without Kasmeer, she gave us a bit of hints to something going on that never amounted to anything, a bit of lip about how she's a big girl who can make her own decisions, and... that's it. The relationship humanizes what are otherwise hollow characters.

I would like to see more of their individual strengths and interests. I would like to delve into what Kasmeer being a noble again actually means for her, since that entire development was resolved offscreen. I'd like to see more of Marjory's apparently sprawling family, and have them pry her open a bit. I'd like to see both of them get back to the detective work, since Dragon's Watch can hardly be considered a day job. But, in my opinion, they're at their strongest when they have each other to play off of. Their relationship's biggest problem has been that it's been existing in a vacuum- it seems to be all that either character has going on. Incorporate it into other stories and others facets of their lives, though, and they each remain our best way of getting to know the other.

[Aphrodite.6950]

Yes, seeing them for one short story mode in their home town would be really fun to watch.

[Chadramar.8156]

I don't care for them either alone or together, so no. What I want more of is allowing the player character to develop some meaningful and reciprocal bonds, because I'm not at all interested in being merely an adoring bystander to NPC drama. With Marjory in particular, I never had the sense that she gives a toss about the PC -- in HoT she's pretty hostile if you play as sylvari, and she also doesn't seem to be interested in part of a team. So as far as I'm concerned she can shove right off.

I really don't look forward to being forced to make "one more attempt to bring Dragon's Watch together". The only ones I'm vaguely positive towards are Caithe, Canach and Rytlock (in that order).

[Aphrodite.6950]

I like Jory and all her attitude, it's just her personality. She tends to be very blunt and gruff.

[Kalocin.5982]

I'd like to see less "in your face" about being in a relationship. Most people in a relationship have some discretion when it comes to topics and romance rather than bringing the boat to show in front of everyone. If I were to see more of them, it'd be "why the actually make a good pair" (or don't, if they want to go that direction too) and less "hey look lesbian couple".

[HeavensSword.3960]

I recently returned to the game and am experiencing the story I missed for the first time. Currently going through LS 2 and I can't stand the new characters so far.Everything feels so forced and a lot of the dialog comes off as some poorly written fan-fiction. From what I've read elsewhere I can't expect it to get any better in HoT, I'm just really hoping it gets better in PoF, otherwise I might be done.It's sad because I really enjoyed the story in GW1 and was really into the lore of Tyria. GW2 seems to have no respect for a lot of what was done in GW1.

[Neilos Tyrhanos.5427]

@Kalocin.5982 said:I'd like to see less "in your face" about being in a relationship. Most people in a relationship have some discretion when it comes to topics and romance rather than bringing the boat to show in front of everyone. If I were to see more of them, it'd be "why the actually make a good pair" (or don't, if they want to go that direction too) and less "hey look lesbian couple".

The thing is, they don't actually do anything more "in your face" than a thousand other (straight) couples in games/books/films. Frankly, I really do think the complaint just comes up more often when it's same-sex.

[Oglaf.1074]

@Neilos Tyrhanos.5427 said:

@Kalocin.5982 said:I'd like to see less "in your face" about being in a relationship. Most people in a relationship have some discretion when it comes to topics and romance rather than bringing the boat to show in front of everyone. If I were to see more of them, it'd be "why the actually make a good pair" (or don't, if they want to go that direction too) and less "hey look lesbian couple".

The thing is, they don't actually do anything more "in your face" than a thousand other (straight) couples in games/books/films. Frankly, I really do think the complaint just comes up more often when it's same-sex.

Did you actually bother to read past the first sentence of the post you replied to? He/she is not complaining about what you think they are complaining about. Any couple - no matter the orienation - whose relationship is 99% based solely on Public Displays of Affection is just bad storytelling.

[Neilos Tyrhanos.5427]

@Oglaf.1074 said:

@Neilos Tyrhanos.5427 said:

@Kalocin.5982 said:I'd like to see less "in your face" about being in a relationship. Most people in a relationship have some discretion when it comes to topics and romance rather than bringing the boat to show in front of everyone. If I were to see more of them, it'd be "why the actually make a good pair" (or don't, if they want to go that direction too) and less "hey look lesbian couple".

The thing is, they don't actually do anything more "in your face" than a thousand other (straight) couples in games/books/films. Frankly, I really do think the complaint just comes up more often when it's same-sex.

Did you actually bother to read past the first sentence of the post you replied to? He/she is not complaining about what you think they are complaining about. Any couple - no matter the orienation - whose relationship is 99% based solely on Public Displays of Affection is just bad storytelling.

Uhrm, yes, I did. I'm aware of what the complaint is.

My point is that Jory & Kas' relationship isn't portrayed in that way, really. We have, what, one kiss, no hand-holding, and some occasional coupley-talk, in many months' worth of story? It's hardly full-on at all. It's portrayed in much the same way a lot of straight couples are across different forms of media, about which there is no complaint.

The difference isn't in presentation; it's in reception.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

@Neilos Tyrhanos.5427 said:and some occasional coupley-talk,Most of their dialog in Season 1 was nothing but that. They have gotten a lot better in Season 2 and 3, but only after the massive backlash.

They still have to fix everything else about those characters, but that is another issue entirely.

[Oglaf.1074]

@Thornwolf.9721 said:Id be fine if there was a living story episode where it focused on that and other members of your squad and their day to day lives after a epic confrontation

Now I want an Living Story episode where Taimi has the Commander accompany her during a full day of "Asura School". Carry her tiny adorable books, participate in P.E and utterly destroy the other Asuran children in dodge ball, and deal with bullies etc.

[RyuDragnier.9476]

@Oglaf.1074 said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:Id be fine if there was a living story episode where it focused on that and other members of your squad and their day to day lives after a epic confrontation

Now I want an Living Story episode where Taimi has the Commander accompany her during a full day of "Asura School". Carry her tiny adorable books, participate in P.E and utterly destroy the other Asuran children in dodge ball, and deal with bullies etc.

I'd like a variation of this tbh. Maybe meet Taimi's parents, see Zojja after so long and probably end up beating the hell out of a few inquest agents. A good time for all will be had.

[castlemanic.3198]

@RyuDragnier.9476 said:

@Oglaf.1074 said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:Id be fine if there was a living story episode where it focused on that and other members of your squad and their day to day lives after a epic confrontation

Now I want an Living Story episode where Taimi has the Commander accompany her during a full day of "Asura School". Carry her tiny adorable books, participate in P.E and utterly destroy the other Asuran children in dodge ball, and deal with bullies etc.

I'd like a variation of this tbh. Maybe meet Taimi's parents, see Zojja after so long and probably end up beating the hell out of a few inquest agents. A good time for all will be had.

Aren't Taimi's parents dead? At least Taimi claimed that in season 1, it could turn out to be some sort of fake out though.

I disagree that the relationship is in your face in the slightest, it honestly feels quite natural to me, and i'd have the same feeling if they were a straight couple too. I do believe that, in general, all the characters need developing beyond "token ally", Canach really falls into his own space quite well, and while there is legitimate depth in Braham's character, which i've defended before, it is 100% presented horribly, I think Braham and Rox are the worst presented characters, with Rytlock following shortly after. Taimi is growing into her own and I'm glad she's prone to making mistakes, but I do think that even her mistake (however potentially disastrous it was) is diminished by how the mistake was made during a period of lack of sleep. If she had made the mistake while at her best, then I think there'd be more legitimacy to her character arc of "oh crap I made a mistake" and trying to fix it. Kasmeer and Marjory do feel flat. Their relationship is done better than their individual personalities, but while the relationship feels natural, it is flat and a bit tokenesque as well.

I want more depth for all of the characters in dragon's watch is basically what i think I want, and where there is depth, I want good presentation. Unlike the other characters, Canach is the only character to have undergone sweeping changes (especially during season 1), and has shown how he reacts to being a hero vs being a villain vs just getting revenge and helping people on the side. The only other character to have really undergone something close to that was Braham, but like I said, the depth is muddied by the poor representation of his character, and all the subtext of his situation (trying to live up to his mothers legacy, the pain of opening up only to lose that person permanently, he also lost his father and couldn't do anything to stop his death, being forced to remain silent and going from bitterness to hopeful, having love and having it be crushed, anger and vengeance) is lost in his tantrum, and none of it is expressed well in game, only his single minded determination in destroying the dragons which is fueled by a lot of the subtext that is there. With Rox, there's barely anything shown to us after season 1, where she decided to lose her place in the stone warband in order to save a friend, and then just.... stayed in Braham's shadow.

I'll just stop this post here cause I could certainly go on. I just want more depth for all the characters.

[TheOrlyFactor.8341]

@RyuDragnier.9476 said:

@Oglaf.1074 said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:Id be fine if there was a living story episode where it focused on that and other members of your squad and their day to day lives after a epic confrontation

Now I want an Living Story episode where Taimi has the Commander accompany her during a full day of "Asura School". Carry her tiny adorable books, participate in P.E and utterly destroy the other Asuran children in dodge ball, and deal with bullies etc.

I'd like a variation of this tbh. Maybe meet Taimi's parents, see Zojja after so long and probably end up beating the hell out of a few inquest agents. A good time for all will be had.

Too bad it looks like Anet's going to do nothing with Zojja. :| At least I'm not going to hold my breath with the way they bused her. Really disappointed with Anet on leaving that particular story hanging with a bunch of hearsay.

[draxynnic.3719]

@castlemanic.3198 said:Taimi is growing into her own and I'm glad she's prone to making mistakes, but I do think that even her mistake (however potentially disastrous it was) is diminished by how the mistake was made during a period of lack of sleep. If she had made the mistake while at her best, then I think there'd be more legitimacy to her character arc of "oh crap I made a mistake" and trying to fix it.

That said, while the big error could be said to be from sleep deprivation, it was Taimi's decision to "never sleep again" because she was so excited by the potential of her research. She was only in the position where she could make mistakes due to sleep deprivation because she herself chose to do research on manipulating magic on a potentially apocalyptic scale while not at her best, and that decision, and the consequences, is on her.

[Chadramar.8156]

@castlemanic.3198 said:I disagree that the relationship is in your face in the slightest, it honestly feels quite natural to me, and i'd have the same feeling if they were a straight couple too.

Non-straight people of any kind are much more likely to be reduced to and stereotyped for their sexuality, less likely to be "allowed" to just exist without needing a "reason" to do so, which is course then promptly accused of being an "agenda". So certain people's reaction to them doesn't surprise me at all, it's extremely predictable.

Taimi is growing into her own and I'm glad she's prone to making mistakes, but I do think that even her mistake (however potentially disastrous it was) is diminished by how the mistake was made during a period of lack of sleep.

That seriously annoyed me. Plus, even when she screws up, it's all about her, no room for any other character to get involved (except to reassure her). And she never faces any consequences for anything else either, like her repeated violations of privacy. But I admit I'm biased, I seriously loathe this character by now.

I want more depth for all of the characters in dragon's watch is basically what i think I want, and where there is depth, I want good presentation.

I want more focus on the Commander. The supposed protagonist of "this is my story". If the NPCs get even more time for their issues and their relationships while the PC keeps getting nothing except maybe one line of racial dialog when the stars are in perfect alignment behind a blue moon, there's really no point in having the PC in the story at all because there's not really much of a character there, just a faceless story vehicle. And by focus I don't mean "OMG u r teh chosen 1" (or alternatively considering LS3 "OMG u r crap"), I mean racial dialog, callbacks to our backstory, NPCs taking an interest in our thoughts and our well-being instead of only ever the other way around, sylvari getting real closure on the Pale Tree and possibly an overdue heart to heart with her about keeping vital secrets, humans being able to talk about their faith in the face of the developments with their gods, charr finally hearing from their warband again, RP options to express different opinions, that sort of thing.

You could kill two birds with one stone there because the NPCs can be fleshed out more while focusing on the PC. How does each of them relate to us? What do they even know about us? How do they show support or concern in very individual ways? Of course they should still have their own arcs, but I'd say above all the PC needs to be allowed to be more of a character as well.

[Oglaf.1074]

That's not gonna happen. It just isn't Anet's way. As a Norn player I am doubly annoyed by this because the whole motivation of my character is to build his legend - so forcing him to be nothing but a spectator to other characters is doubly terrible. It is also why I hate Trahearne with a passion because as soon as he is introduced, it truly stops being the story about your character. Up to that point, it has been - all the different racial "introduction" part of the story is 110% about your character. Then Tree Jebus gets introduced and downhill we go...

[Myrdreth.6829]

I think both of them are boring :/ I don't mind their relationship, it has nothing to do with that. They are just really boring characters in my opinion.

And about their relationship: The dialogues between them seem so fake and superficial. They don't seem natural at all with each other...but it's not just those two that have that problem. In other games, movies or books some couples seem like that too. I can't really describe it.

But the relationship between Hiccup and Astrid from How To Tame Your Dragon is really beautiful. That's what I would hope for Kas and Jory. Natural banter, normal talks with each other and not those cliché dialogues. You know what I mean? Argh, it's really hard to put into words...sorry.

[castlemanic.3198]

@draxynnic.3719 said:That said, while the big error could be said to be from sleep deprivation, it was Taimi's decision to "never sleep again" because she was so excited by the potential of her research. She was only in the position where she could make mistakes due to sleep deprivation because she herself chose to do research on manipulating magic on a potentially apocalyptic scale while not at her best, and that decision, and the consequences, is on her.

That's a fair argument. She did make a mistake in the end, technically two because "never sleep[ing] again" lead to the much more cataclysmic mistake that was barely averted, and I guess that is worth considering in that in her excitement, she made a bad choice. Wouldn't have considered that angle.

@Chadramar.8156 said:Non-straight people of any kind are much more likely to be reduced to and stereotyped for their sexuality, less likely to be "allowed" to just exist without needing a "reason" to do so, which is course then promptly accused of being an "agenda". So certain people's reaction to them doesn't surprise me at all, it's extremely predictable.

Definitely agree.

I want more focus on the Commander. The supposed protagonist of "this is my story". If the NPCs get even more time for their issues and their relationships while the PC keeps getting nothing except maybe one line of racial dialog when the stars are in perfect alignment behind a blue moon, there's really no point in having the PC in the story at all because there's not really much of a character there, just a faceless story vehicle. And by focus I don't mean "OMG u r teh chosen 1" (or alternatively considering LS3 "OMG u r crap"), I mean racial dialog, callbacks to our backstory, NPCs taking an interest in our thoughts and our well-being instead of only ever the other way around, sylvari getting real closure on the Pale Tree and possibly an overdue heart to heart with her about keeping vital secrets, humans being able to talk about their faith in the face of the developments with their gods, charr finally hearing from their warband again, RP options to express different opinions, that sort of thing.

You could kill two birds with one stone there because the NPCs can be fleshed out more while focusing on the PC. How does each of them relate to us? What do they even know about us? How do they show support or concern in very individual ways? Of course they should still have their own arcs, but I'd say above all the PC needs to be allowed to be more of a character as well.

This is the biggest issue with the shift in narrative is that the commander has gone from "our character" to "a character we play as", which is a huge dissonance that, while slow and gradual for veteran players, becomes extremely pronounced for newer players, with fewer and fewer choices being given to the player and more decisions being made by the commander rather than the player. Part of that narrative shift is the abandonment of personal story stuff that should be having major impacts on the characters we meet, but aren't, and the total abandonment of charr commanders of their warband is very very uncool, as well as the shining blade not remembering how human characters "unknown parents" choice meant they were the children of two shining blade members and helped with killing the previous white mantle confessor (which, while the vague enough wording of "they haven't risen through the ranks" sort of addresses that, specifically coming from a character who was in that story section is appalling). There are multiple other things as well, but I don't have enough experience with most of the races and the choices that they could have made, and those that i do have experience with, i don't have a strong enough memory to work with.

It's a shame, there's a lot they could have done, but their focus on streamlining the commander makes the experience all the poorer, especially for everyone who has avoided the personal story for one reason or another. In a perfect world we could have both, but sadly developer time and funding is limited, and shipping a product is ultimately the end goal, not perfecting it.

[RyuDragnier.9476]

@TheOrlyFactor.8341 said:

@RyuDragnier.9476 said:

@Oglaf.1074 said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:Id be fine if there was a living story episode where it focused on that and other members of your squad and their day to day lives after a epic confrontation

Now I want an Living Story episode where Taimi has the Commander accompany her during a full day of "Asura School". Carry her tiny adorable books, participate in P.E and utterly destroy the other Asuran children in dodge ball, and deal with bullies etc.

I'd like a variation of this tbh. Maybe meet Taimi's parents, see Zojja after so long and probably end up beating the hell out of a few inquest agents. A good time for all will be had.

Too bad it looks like Anet's going to do nothing with Zojja. :| At least I'm not going to hold my breath with the way they bused her. Really disappointed with Anet on leaving that particular story hanging with a bunch of hearsay.

From what I recall, Zojja's VA is really hard to get ahold of. Short of them deciding "We're going to drop her old VA, let's make some excuse ingame for a change in voice," we probably won't be seeing much of her.

[castlemanic.3198]

@RyuDragnier.9476 said:

@TheOrlyFactor.8341 said:

@RyuDragnier.9476 said:

@Oglaf.1074 said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:Id be fine if there was a living story episode where it focused on that and other members of your squad and their day to day lives after a epic confrontation

Now I want an Living Story episode where Taimi has the Commander accompany her during a full day of "Asura School". Carry her tiny adorable books, participate in P.E and utterly destroy the other Asuran children in dodge ball, and deal with bullies etc.

I'd like a variation of this tbh. Maybe meet Taimi's parents, see Zojja after so long and probably end up beating the hell out of a few inquest agents. A good time for all will be had.

Too bad it looks like Anet's going to do nothing with Zojja. :| At least I'm not going to hold my breath with the way they bused her. Really disappointed with Anet on leaving that particular story hanging with a bunch of hearsay.

From what I recall, Zojja's VA is really hard to get ahold of. Short of them deciding "We're going to drop her old VA, let's make some excuse ingame for a change in voice," we probably won't be seeing much of her.

Felicia Day (the voice actor of Zojja) said she's up for doing Zojja stuff and is waiting on Anet to call on her.

[JayMack.8295]

I don't think it's solely that she's difficult to get ahold of. I know she HAS been, since they stated in a Guild Chat that she was, but they got hold of her for HoT and rarely even used her. She had, what - about 4 lines? Over a 2 year development for the expansion, they could have probably scheduled her in had they wanted to for PoF.

I think it's simply that they had no reason to use her for PoF or Season 3. Logan had more of a reason to turn up in Season 3, and while yes, we went to Rata Sum often and she could have appeared in Taimi's lab, both Phlunt and Rytlock are voiced by Steve Blum, so it was probably just easier for budget and scheduling purposes to use him instead and keep her in a coma or whatever her status is now.

If she doesn't appear for a more Asura focused story, though, I'll be disappointed. She deserves at least some form of resolution or update on her character status.

[Oglaf.1074]

At least she wasn't killed off for no good reason.

[ugrakarma.9416]

! on PoF history, Kas was most pale, boring, tedious, is nothing compared to Rytlock and Canach. i seem her just a filler to balance the awesomeness of Canach/Rytlock. i would be happy if balthazar killed her instead of Vlast(aka Glaust).

[ugrakarma.9416]

@castlemanic.3198 said:This is the biggest issue with the shift in narrative is that the commander has gone from "our character" to "a character we play as", which is a huge dissonance that, while slow and gradual for veteran players, becomes extremely pronounced for newer players, with fewer and fewer choices being given to the player and more decisions being made by the commander rather than the player. Part of that narrative shift is the abandonment of personal story stuff that should be having major impacts on the characters we meet, but aren't, and the total abandonment of charr commanders of their warband is very very uncool, as well as the shining blade not remembering how human characters "unknown parents" choice meant they were the children of two shining blade members and helped with killing the previous white mantle confessor (which, while the vague enough wording of "they haven't risen through the ranks" sort of addresses that, specifically coming from a character who was in that story section is appalling). There are multiple other things as well, but I don't have enough experience with most of the races and the choices that they could have made, and those that i do have experience with, i don't have a strong enough memory to work with.

It's a shame, there's a lot they could have done, but their focus on streamlining the commander makes the experience all the poorer, especially for everyone who has avoided the personal story for one reason or another. In a perfect world we could have both, but sadly developer time and funding is limited, and shipping a product is ultimately the end goal, not perfecting it.

And I would not even call it narrative change, but I would call it a cheap, lazy way of dealing with the poor development of mechanics Anet have. it is a fact that Anet has problems with decisions made in history mode thats affects game mode mechanics(like the pact order u choose), thats why personal history is not replayable.