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This is how it feels to play mesmer. ( adult content )


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@"Kondor.2904" said:It always makes me smile when someone says "just don't attack when retal is up". It's like saying "just don't get hit when enemy has might up". And i like how you say you can consistently strip retal with your arcane, so sweet. And naive.

If a Warrior uses Defiant Stance do you keep hitting them? No, because it's bad to do so.

Same if you're low on life and you see the enemy has retal. If you can't remove it, you stop attacking and do something else because there is literally no point in killing yourself. I think we both know that I didn't mean "you should never attack if the enemy has retal".

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@"Lottie.5370" said:

If a Warrior uses Defiant Stance do you keep hitting them? No, because it's bad to do so.

Same if you're low on life and you see the enemy has retal. If you can't remove it, you stop attacking and do something else because there is literally no point in killing yourself. I think we both know that I didn't mean "you should never attack if the enemy has retal".

I'm pretty sure you can't have a 100% uptime of defiant stance

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@Gryxis.6950 said:

@"Lottie.5370" said:

If a Warrior uses Defiant Stance do you keep hitting them? No, because it's bad to do so.

Same if you're low on life and you see the enemy has retal. If you can't remove it, you stop attacking and do something else because there is literally no point in killing yourself. I think we both know that I didn't mean "you should never attack if the enemy has retal".

I'm pretty sure you can't have a 100% uptime of defiant stance

way to ignore the point x d

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Lottie.5370 said:What if... you stop hitting when you notice you're dying to retaliation?

so correct play is to let enemies take objective, becouse their permanent aoe retaliation combined with shields means I deal more damage to myself then to them ?

Keep in mind Leonidrex that you also say that the correct counterplay to confusion is that foes stop attacking you while its applied to not take damage. Or that people always stop attacking when confusion is applied thus making confusion a weak and bad condition. you cant use the logic that confusion is weak because of this and then at the same time argue that your cant stop attacking a target with retaliation. They are kind of same similar situations with different perspectives.

Ideally how you feel about the retaliation situation is how people react to confusion thats why the boons and the condition convert back and forth to one another because their interactions by nature are some what similar.

How you feel about attacking someone with retaliation is that you cant just let them do what they want for free thus you must keep attacking.This is how people in most cases feel and react to being hit with confusion and torment as well they know that attacking and moving makes you take more damage but you cant just let the mesmer do as it pleases.

I just want to point this out.

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@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Lottie.5370 said:What if... you stop hitting when you notice you're dying to retaliation?

so correct play is to let enemies take objective, becouse their permanent aoe retaliation combined with shields means I deal more damage to myself then to them ?

Keep in mind Leonidrex that you also say that the correct counterplay to confusion is that foes stop attacking you while its applied to not take damage. Or that people always stop attacking when confusion is applied thus making confusion a weak and bad condition. you cant use the logic that confusion is weak because of this and then at the same time argue that your cant stop attacking a target with retaliation. They are kind of same similar situations with different perspectives.

Ideally how you feel about the retaliation situation is how people react to confusion thats why the boons and the condition convert back and forth to one another because their interactions by nature are some what similar.

How you feel about attacking someone with retaliation is that you cant just let them do what they want for free thus you must keep attacking.This is how people in most cases feel and react to being hit with confusion and torment as well they know that attacking and moving makes you take more damage but you cant just let the mesmer do as it pleases.

I just want to point this out.

there is a huge difference.1 I have to get hit to have confusion.2 some abilities multiproc retal to the extreme. example : gs 4, traited can land 10 ticks of damage, in a teamfight that can easly retal 4-5k dmg back.3 I didnt say counterplay to confusion is not using skills, I said its not spaming, or finding a way to disengage for short while, you dont get to do that against retal becouse its permanently up, its so bad that when I down engi and want to cleave I will lose 1/2 hp doing so, cant wait it out becouse his corpse will have it for 10s+.

I understand how people feel, peoples feelings are meaningless, fact matter.Retaliation should be removed as a boon, or gives 1 time proc per ability, or simply tied to some skills like warrior block 4 or something.I shouldnt be punish for having multihits abilities, its mindboggling how many times I died chased down by 2 guards, becouse I used sword2 to evade, only to lose 3k HP to retal.

Tie it to short cooldowns that you are not ment to attack like disort for mesmer, or guards invuln channel.or make it proc once per ability.

PS you can use several abilities with confusion on, and you will take less damage due to confusion then due to other conditions like buring or torment.if you dont cast you take 0 dmg, if you cast tiny bit you take minimal damage, if you ignore it and play normally you take as much as you would have due to other conditions, and if you spam like holo on quickness you get justly punished for it.

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Lottie.5370 said:What if... you stop hitting when you notice you're dying to retaliation?

so correct play is to let enemies take objective, becouse their permanent aoe retaliation combined with shields means I deal more damage to myself then to them ?

Keep in mind Leonidrex that you also say that the correct counterplay to confusion is that foes stop attacking you while its applied to not take damage. Or that people always stop attacking when confusion is applied thus making confusion a weak and bad condition. you cant use the logic that confusion is weak because of this and then at the same time argue that your cant stop attacking a target with retaliation. They are kind of same similar situations with different perspectives.

Ideally how you feel about the retaliation situation is how people react to confusion thats why the boons and the condition convert back and forth to one another because their interactions by nature are some what similar.

How you feel about attacking someone with retaliation is that you cant just let them do what they want for free thus you must keep attacking.This is how people in most cases feel and react to being hit with confusion and torment as well they know that attacking and moving makes you take more damage but you cant just let the mesmer do as it pleases.

I just want to point this out.I understand how people feel, peoples feelings are meaningless, fact matter.Retaliation should be removed as a boon, or gives 1 time proc per ability, or simply tied to some skills like warrior block 4 or something.I shouldnt be punish for having multihits abilities, its mindboggling how many times I died chased down by 2 guards, becouse I used sword2 to evade, only to lose 3k HP to retal.

I could say alot of things here but ill just end it with a basic statement to sum this up.

People also think they shouldn't be punished for using auto attacks by confusion but i mean you just said feelings are meaningless so i guess there is no reason to care why you are punished for retaliation when using multi hit skills, just dont attack or use boon rip and you wont die. If you continue to attack just die.

I cant understand how you can say the things you are saying but deny the ideals when the same logic of thinking is turned against you. Im done with the retaliation vs confusion topic as a whole because its just gonna go back and forth.

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@ZDragon.3046 said:

I could say alot of things here but ill just end it with a basic statement to sum this up.

People also think they shouldn't be punished for using auto attacks by confusion but i mean you just said feelings are meaningless so i guess there is no reason to care why you are punished for retaliation when using multi hit skills, just dont attack or use boon rip and you wont die. If you continue to attack just die.

I cant understand how you can say the things you are saying but deny the ideals when the same logic of thinking is turned against you. Im done with the retaliation vs confusion topic as a whole because its just gonna go back and forth.

People who have retalation usually have a lot of other boons and it makes it hard to rip retaliation. On most classes, you don't have that much boon ripping and you can't do a lot against retalation.

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@Gryxis.6950 said:People who have retalation usually have a lot of other boons and it makes it hard to rip retaliation. On most classes, you don't have that much boon ripping and you can't do a lot against retalation.

Most professions dont have a lot of retaliation in general its fairly unique to guardian which in itself (outside of firebrand) has plenty of weaknesses. That said removing firebrand does not remove the fact that the base profession has plenty of retaliation. If it just so happens to hurt some professions more than others thats not a bad thing. Thats called having a counter and its fine so long as its not super effective against all 8 other professions which its not. If really hurts 2 or 3 thats fine. Most professions should have between 2-4 others who counteract them this just so happens to be one of mesmers worst match ups and thats not a reason to demand that retalation should be changed.

Further more someone who says that feelings are meaningless yet if condemns another for saying confusion is too strong yet debates that its too weak because a person can just stop attacking and take 0 damage what else can i say.... I mean if a person has retaliation and you know its a risk to attack them maybe just dont attack them while its up if we are going by this track of thinking. Or take the risk and if it kills you then you know you make a mistake.

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@ZDragon.3046 said:

@"Gryxis.6950" said:People who have retalation usually have a lot of other boons and it makes it hard to rip retaliation. On most classes, you don't have that much boon ripping and you can't do a lot against retalation.

Most professions dont have a lot of retaliation in general its fairly unique to guardian which in itself (outside of firebrand) has plenty of weaknesses. That said removing firebrand does not remove the fact that the base profession has plenty of retaliation. If it just so happens to hurt some professions more than others thats not a bad thing. Thats called having a counter and its fine so long as its not super effective against all 8 other professions which its not. If really hurts 2 or 3 thats fine. Most professions should have between 2-4 others who counteract them this just so happens to be one of mesmers worst match ups and thats not a reason to demand that retalation should be changed.

Further more someone who says that feelings are meaningless yet if condemns another for saying confusion is too strong yet debates that its too weak because a person can just stop attacking and take 0 damage what else can i say.... I mean if a person has retaliation and you know its a risk to attack them maybe just dont attack them while its up if we are going by this track of thinking. Or take the risk and if it kills you then you know you make a mistake.

there is a difference between a condition that can be cleansed, invulnerabled or you know evaded.and a boon, on a boonvomit classes, that vomit it in aoe.Just take it apart to basic components and consider what is the reason for retal and what is the reason for confusion.Confusion is supposed to be "burst" condi that punishes spamming, at does its job in punishing spamming, not so much with bursting, but it does its function.Whats the reason to retaliation? discourage people from attacking you? why in the fuck would a class have this boon permanently up, why would you make this aoe, and why would you make it multiproc is just dumb and ridiculous. When I play warrior I dont even realize its therem compleatly meaningless, same when I play thief exept 1 in 100 situation where I daggerstorm and reflect aton into retal. Meanwhile mesmer can hurt himself/herself for entire chunks of HP with half abilities.Lower its uptimes, Buff its damage, make it once per ability use. BOOM works properly.Its retarded that my auto chain deals 2k dmg to guard, 750 to myself, and he has about 15x more sustain then me, meaning that as long as I dont burst him in 3s, I take more damage from attacking him then he does. ridiculous.

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@"Gryxis.6950" said:People who have retalation usually have a lot of other boons and it makes it hard to rip retaliation. On most classes, you don't have that much boon ripping and you can't do a lot against retalation.

Most professions dont have a lot of retaliation in general its fairly unique to guardian which in itself (outside of firebrand) has plenty of weaknesses. That said removing firebrand does not remove the fact that the base profession has plenty of retaliation. If it just so happens to hurt some professions more than others thats not a bad thing. Thats called having a counter and its fine so long as its not super effective against all 8 other professions which its not. If really hurts 2 or 3 thats fine. Most professions should have between 2-4 others who counteract them this just so happens to be one of mesmers worst match ups and thats not a reason to demand that retalation should be changed.

Further more someone who says that feelings are meaningless yet if condemns another for saying confusion is too strong yet debates that its too weak because a person can just stop attacking and take 0 damage what else can i say.... I mean if a person has retaliation and you know its a risk to attack them maybe just dont attack them while its up if we are going by this track of thinking. Or take the risk and if it kills you then you know you make a mistake.

there is a difference between a condition that can be cleansed, invulnerabled or you know evaded.and a boon, on a boonvomit classes, that vomit it in aoe.Just take it apart to basic components and consider what is the reason for retal and what is the reason for confusion.Confusion is supposed to be "burst" condi that punishes spamming, at does its job in punishing spamming, not so much with bursting, but it does its function.Whats the reason to retaliation? discourage people from attacking you? why in the kitten would a class have this boon permanently up, why would you make this aoe, and why would you make it multiproc is just dumb and ridiculous. When I play warrior I dont even realize its therem compleatly meaningless, same when I play thief exept 1 in 100 situation where I daggerstorm and reflect aton into retal. Meanwhile mesmer can hurt himself/herself for entire chunks of HP with half abilities.

Similarly if you are spamming attacks retaliation will punish you hard but...The purpose of retaliation is a lesser damage reflect. There have been a lot of mmo's games that punish players who dont pay attention with damage reflect mechanics. Retaliation is a weaker version of this ideal in the sense that you dont take the full damage you hit the person for in return instead you take a fixed lower value. If you have skills that hit multiple times then its more effective against you. If you hit less times its not as effective if anything one would say its too weak. Take 7k in a single hit return 200 damage.

So ideally yes its to discourage people from attacking even more so if your kit is filled with skills that do a lot of multi hit strikes. If it was single proc then the damge in return would need to be much higher similar to confusion which could be a few hundred or thousand damage per proc. Which wouldnt make it any better for you really. But it would improve it for the user vs everything else.

As i said above perfectly its not effective against every profession which is how it should be. ITs most effective against ele (mostly tempest), mesmer, and Rev. That makes retaliation as a whole just fine. Its not just about you as a mesmer. ITs more effective against you.... dont attack targets with retaliation lol.

Lower its uptimes, Buff its damage, make it once per ability use. BOOM works properly.if that one proc is about 1k-2k damage per proc then sure. This makes it more effective against professions its currently not effective against, so we should do this i agree. Perfect!

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Just a word of warning, illusions (e.g. from gs4) do not proc retal on you. They do however, proc it on themselves, which is imo still kinda troll since they don’t have much hp in the first place (phantasms explode when hitting into retal meaning no follow-up phantasm/clone, and clones end up killing themselves).

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@Noodle Ant.1605 said:Just a word of warning, illusions (e.g. from gs4) do not proc retal on you. They do however, proc it on themselves, which is imo still kinda troll since they don’t have much hp in the first place (phantasms explode when hitting into retal meaning no follow-up phantasm/clone, and clones end up killing themselves).

that is true, i was mistaken and stand corrected.

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@ZDragon.3046TBH retaliatory attacks exist in game for a LONG time, only way they are properly implemented is when they are combined with mechanics that you are not supposed to attack, like one of the raid bosses that has retaliation untill you CC him.If you want retal in the game so much add it to skills like warrior shield block, or to guardians blue barrier, make it hit harder, or reflect % of the damage it would have taken.

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:@ZDragon.3046TBH retaliatory attacks exist in game for a LONG time, only way they are properly implemented is when they are combined with mechanics that you are not supposed to attack, like one of the raid bosses that has retaliation untill you CC him.

That would be Gorseval the MultifariousNote that not every profession needs to stop attacking him as guardians and warriors (berserkers) both have healing skills that heal based on ougoing damage which lets them out heal the retaliation damageMost other professions can slow down their damage or simply use skills that are not mulit hit and be just fine.The biggest exceptions would be Ele and mesmers they must pretty much almost stop attacking and do nothing other than auto attack if that even otherwise they almost always kill themselves.

As i said retaliation is not effective against every profession in the game which is wha makes it just fine as is. its effective more so against some professions than others which makes the profession a counter to the one its effective against. THIS IS FINE so long as its not overperforming against everyone and everything which you have already pointed out its not good agianst warrior or thief unless you dagger-storm and get tons of bounces etc.

If you want retal in the game so much add it to skills like warrior shield block, or to guardians blue barrier, make it hit harder, or reflect % of the damage it would have taken.

I never said we needed to add more of it.

1 Warriors have a minor defensive retaliation trait that procs every so often already in the defense line.2 Warriors shield has a trait for reflecting projectiles to the attacker which can be much more damage that what retaliation does in a lot of situations.3 Warriors are also rewarded with might if the shield is trait'ed when attacks get blocked

Do you really want to be giving the warrior might, bouncing projectiles back at you, and triggering retaliation damage all at the same time?You want retal. to reflect a % of the damage you are realistically doing in 2019 meta where people do tons of damage that would be far more than what you get in a few multi ticks to be thrown back at you?

I cant comprehend this. O_O

Regardless i think retaliation is fine. Boon rip it, or dont attack the person.Just like you say people dont attack or use skills while under confusion because its rewarding them to not do that because they dont take damage. So using this logic it should be rewarding for you to not attack a player with retaliation if you know its goin to do a ton of damage back to you.

Problem solved.

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