Scourge Nerfs Tomorrow!?

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

I think the real question is will the meta change. the short answer is we have no idea.

Cutting the potential of Sand Savant and it's boon corruption capability will indeed decrease the demand for this particular build. The real question is, are there any classes that can take up the cup (which is a phrase that means will someone be able to take on the mantle of responsibility left behind from scourge)

Frankly, i still don't believe any class is yet capable of competing with scourge in the AOE department, and all this will mean is that scourges will be stacked even more so than they were before to meet the same power threshold. Unless they nerf the capabilities of it's AOE to the point where it's more detrimental to run scourge than it is any other class that can do something similar like warrior, only then will we see a drop in scourge play.

What is good about balance patches aimed at changing the meta, is that there will be theorycrafters out there, like myself, that will seek to test out other builds and compositions in an attempt to find a build that can take on that mantle, and there will be more people willing to accept and experiment with recommendations. If something sticks, a new composition is born. Hopefully there will be enough possible compositions out there that can share a level playing field.

[God.2708]

@Swagger.1459 said:

@God.2708 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:

@God.2708 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:

@God.2708 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:

@God.2708 said:Not going to notice a ~40% reduction of scourge damage? Yes, I think people will notice that.

How do you not understand that comment? You should mentally process the scenario for zerg fights, it might help you understand.

If you are a single person getting 20 scourges worth of damage lobbed at you, you are indeed probably dead. If you are a player amongst a 40 person zerg and 20 scourges are lobbing damage at you, the odds of you getting hit by 20 scourges worth of damage will have been MASSIVELY reduced making your death much less likely.

Nobody is really going to notice when you still have hundreds of AoEs being tossed around back and forth.

Yes, people will notice. You might not. Which sounds like a personal problem. But plenty of good players will.

There were complaints about too many AoEs prior to pof and scourge, so you don’t really have a point. This change is not moving the gameplay needle.

It clearly will reduce the damage scourge blobs deal against enemy blobs, so not sure what exactly is the point of this argument <.<

The point is you will still have wall to wall AoE carpeting inside of wvw. And as a result, the devs are hesitant to make other adjustments.

There were too many AoEs before scourge and too many AoEs after scourge. This won’t change how wvw zerg combat plays out.

There's nothing inherently wrong with wall to wall AoE carpets. This may come as a surprise but AoE carpets don't just up and kill people. Especially if they are wall to wall.

You seem as if you haven’t been paying attention to wvw much, or the years of complaints. You also seem unaware that having too many AoEs puts some limitations on the devs making other changes to the game. Another also, you seem to not understand that this game strongly favors ranged over melee, and that cuts out a number of potential build options from growing into the meta. Finally, shades were 5 target before, while traited, so it’s not like we haven’t been there, and it’s not like it wasn’t ever “aoe wars” before.

You may think mindlessly spamming AoEs all over is quality gameplay, but some of us don’t.

AoE carpets have little to do with melee vs ranged. The core meta was full of both melee and ranged and AoE carpets. AoE doesn't cut anything out of the meta. I have been paying attention plenty to both WvW and the years of complaints and in general most of the complaints come from people like you, who don't seem to know much of what they are talking about.

Shades were always ten target with Sand Savant. The fact that before it was 5 at ranged and 5 at melee vs now as 10 ranged or 10 melee doesn't change that it hit 10 targets and that is a major source of the scourges strength.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

I mean, there are plenty of 2 scourge parties. 3 scourge parties will fail. just take spb for mad bubbles, all will be well.

[Ashantara.8731]

@God.2708 said:Shades were always ten target with Sand Savant. The fact that before it was 5 at ranged and 5 at melee vs now as 10 ranged or 10 melee doesn't change that it hit 10 targets and that is a major source of the scourges strength.

Isn't that exactly what's about to get changed? Or did I misunderstand the dev's note about upcoming Scourge changes? Thought it would be less targets now for Shades and that weapon skill 3 on scepters will only target 1 enemy anymore in WvW.

@Svarty.8019 said:Which means there's an opportunity to feature fewer defensive builds in party compositions. Which may mean a new meta.

Yes: roamers only. GG. ;) For me, the fun of WvW is the group composition and synergies. We already have enough solo play in PvE. I'd rather see new maps in WvW with fresh ways of engaging an enemy through different landscapes and map mechanics and new ways of capturing objects rather than constant profession nerfs.

[God.2708]

@Ashantara.8731 said:

@God.2708 said:Shades were always ten target with Sand Savant. The fact that before it was 5 at ranged and 5 at melee vs now as 10 ranged or 10 melee doesn't change that it hit 10 targets and that is a major source of the scourges strength.

Isn't that exactly what's about to get changed? Or did I misunderstand the dev's note about upcoming Scourge changes? Thought it would be less targets now for Shades and that weapon skill 3 on scepters will only target 1 enemy anymore in WvW.

Yes. Sand Savant will just be a radius increase after the patch, as opposed to a radius and target increase.

[Swagger.1459]

@God.2708 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:

@God.2708 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:

@God.2708 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:

@God.2708 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:

@God.2708 said:Not going to notice a ~40% reduction of scourge damage? Yes, I think people will notice that.

How do you not understand that comment? You should mentally process the scenario for zerg fights, it might help you understand.

If you are a single person getting 20 scourges worth of damage lobbed at you, you are indeed probably dead. If you are a player amongst a 40 person zerg and 20 scourges are lobbing damage at you, the odds of you getting hit by 20 scourges worth of damage will have been MASSIVELY reduced making your death much less likely.

Nobody is really going to notice when you still have hundreds of AoEs being tossed around back and forth.

Yes, people will notice. You might not. Which sounds like a personal problem. But plenty of good players will.

There were complaints about too many AoEs prior to pof and scourge, so you don’t really have a point. This change is not moving the gameplay needle.

It clearly will reduce the damage scourge blobs deal against enemy blobs, so not sure what exactly is the point of this argument <.<

The point is you will still have wall to wall AoE carpeting inside of wvw. And as a result, the devs are hesitant to make other adjustments.

There were too many AoEs before scourge and too many AoEs after scourge. This won’t change how wvw zerg combat plays out.

There's nothing inherently wrong with wall to wall AoE carpets. This may come as a surprise but AoE carpets don't just up and kill people. Especially if they are wall to wall.

You seem as if you haven’t been paying attention to wvw much, or the years of complaints. You also seem unaware that having too many AoEs puts some limitations on the devs making other changes to the game. Another also, you seem to not understand that this game strongly favors ranged over melee, and that cuts out a number of potential build options from growing into the meta. Finally, shades were 5 target before, while traited, so it’s not like we haven’t been there, and it’s not like it wasn’t ever “aoe wars” before.

You may think mindlessly spamming AoEs all over is quality gameplay, but some of us don’t.

AoE carpets have little to do with melee vs ranged. The core meta was full of both melee and ranged and AoE carpets. AoE doesn't cut anything out of the meta. I have been paying attention plenty to both WvW and the years of complaints and in general most of the complaints come from people like you, who don't seem to know much of what they are talking about.

Shades were always ten target with Sand Savant. The fact that before it was 5 at ranged and 5 at melee vs now as 10 ranged or 10 melee doesn't change that it hit 10 targets and that is a major source of the scourges strength.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Manifest_Sand_Shade“Increased the number of targets affected by shade skills from 3 to 5.”

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Manifest_Sand_Shade/history

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sand_Savant“Increased the number of targets affected by the larger shade from 2 to 5 so that it now affects up to 10 targets”

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sand_Savant/history

Acting as if the change back to 5 will be noticeable when there are hundreds of aoes being tossed back and forth is silly.

[DeadlySynz.3471]

@"God.2708" said:Not going to notice a ~40% reduction of scourge damage? Yes, I think people will notice that.

They actually wouldn't. Doesn't matter how tanky you are, the difference between wearing zerk vs full tank and being hit by 10-20 people at once about 1 second in survival. Reducing scourges damage 40% may up that to about 1.4 seconds in survival to someone who is full tank. Then again if people are really unhappy with scourges, they're likely going to jump onto the biggest culprit of damage out there, the Rev. Now do we really need THAT many Rev's on the battle field lobbing their hammers? What do you think the chances of survival are by being hit with say 15 CoR's in a matter of 2 seconds followed by a handful of phase smashes and hammer drops?

This is exactly what people aren't getting, they don't understand they aren't just being hit by 1 person, they are being hit by many. That is not a class problem, that's a numbers problem. It doesn't matter if you are sole player in a 70 man zerg vs another 70 man zerg. Chances are there are at least 20-30 scourges in that zerg littering the ground with AoE's followed by a tsunami of CoR's. I have never once heard anyone who got vaporized in a group fight who immediately started to complain about how much damage 1 skill did. Usually it's "let me check my combat log" "oh I see a multitude of damage sources here"

• meanwhile they are scrolling through there log for about 1 min "Ahh there it is, a 12K CoR or phase smash" Welp, it wasn't the scourge, nor was it the scourge right after PoF launch. Scourges in essence are one of the weakest hitters in the game. When people load up on scourges in their comp, they aren't doing it for damage, they are doing it for corrupts.

Boon corrupts are required to deal with the spam of boons which completely outweighs the corrupts. In all likely-hood, any nerfs to scourges will likely bring more scourges to the party.

[God.2708]

@Swagger.1459 said:

@God.2708 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:

@God.2708 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:

@God.2708 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:

@God.2708 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:

@God.2708 said:Not going to notice a ~40% reduction of scourge damage? Yes, I think people will notice that.

How do you not understand that comment? You should mentally process the scenario for zerg fights, it might help you understand.

If you are a single person getting 20 scourges worth of damage lobbed at you, you are indeed probably dead. If you are a player amongst a 40 person zerg and 20 scourges are lobbing damage at you, the odds of you getting hit by 20 scourges worth of damage will have been MASSIVELY reduced making your death much less likely.

Nobody is really going to notice when you still have hundreds of AoEs being tossed around back and forth.

Yes, people will notice. You might not. Which sounds like a personal problem. But plenty of good players will.

There were complaints about too many AoEs prior to pof and scourge, so you don’t really have a point. This change is not moving the gameplay needle.

It clearly will reduce the damage scourge blobs deal against enemy blobs, so not sure what exactly is the point of this argument <.<

The point is you will still have wall to wall AoE carpeting inside of wvw. And as a result, the devs are hesitant to make other adjustments.

There were too many AoEs before scourge and too many AoEs after scourge. This won’t change how wvw zerg combat plays out.

There's nothing inherently wrong with wall to wall AoE carpets. This may come as a surprise but AoE carpets don't just up and kill people. Especially if they are wall to wall.

You seem as if you haven’t been paying attention to wvw much, or the years of complaints. You also seem unaware that having too many AoEs puts some limitations on the devs making other changes to the game. Another also, you seem to not understand that this game strongly favors ranged over melee, and that cuts out a number of potential build options from growing into the meta. Finally, shades were 5 target before, while traited, so it’s not like we haven’t been there, and it’s not like it wasn’t ever “aoe wars” before.

You may think mindlessly spamming AoEs all over is quality gameplay, but some of us don’t.

AoE carpets have little to do with melee vs ranged. The core meta was full of both melee and ranged and AoE carpets. AoE doesn't cut anything out of the meta. I have been paying attention plenty to both WvW and the years of complaints and in general most of the complaints come from people like you, who don't seem to know much of what they are talking about.

Shades were always ten target with Sand Savant. The fact that before it was 5 at ranged and 5 at melee vs now as 10 ranged or 10 melee doesn't change that it hit 10 targets and that is a major source of the scourges strength.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Manifest_Sand_Shade

“Increased the number of targets affected by shade skills from 3 to 5.”

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Manifest_Sand_Shade/history

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sand_Savant

“Increased the number of targets affected by the larger shade from 2 to 5 so that it now affects up to 10 targets”

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sand_Savant/history

Acting as if the change back to 5 will be noticeable when there are hundreds of aoes being tossed back and forth is silly.

I am actually somewhat amazed you did not know how shades worked before. I took can link the wiki.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Manifest_Sand_Shade

.666 Power mod3700 Power on a typical power scourge.1050 Weapon might average for ascended weapon

3700 1050 .66 = 2,564,100 damage.1,303 damage against a 1967 armor target (light armor with no toughness)693 damage against a 3700 armor target (typical minstrels firebrand)998 damage on average (before critical hits and other mods, though scourges don't have to many that typically come into play)

With this change Anet has now removed998 (average hit) 20 (number of scourges you claim) 5 (number of targets removed from shade max) * 5 (number of times manifest sand shade procs in a shade spike) = 499,000 damage removed from a zergs typical opening spike.

This is the same damage it used to do at range, yes. But the goal with this change is to make melee more friendly. Now they have an appropriate leveled range spike and a similar one at melee, and neither of those spikes is particularly profound (A single weaver by comparison drops that much damage in a meteor shower assuming some silly luck with every meteor hitting)

@DeadlySynz.3471 said:

@God.2708 said:Not going to notice a ~40% reduction of scourge damage? Yes, I think people will notice that.

They actually wouldn't. Doesn't matter how tanky you are, the difference between wearing zerk vs full tank and being hit by 10-20 people at once about 1 second in survival. Reducing scourges damage 40% may up that to about 1.4 seconds in survival to someone who is full tank. Then again if people are really unhappy with scourges, they're likely going to jump onto the biggest culprit of damage out there, the Rev. Now do we really need THAT many Rev's on the battle field lobbing their hammers? What do you think the chances of survival are by being hit with say 15 CoR's in a matter of 2 seconds followed by a handful of phase smashes and hammer drops?

This is exactly what people aren't getting, they don't understand they aren't just being hit by 1 person, they are being hit by many. That is not a class problem, that's a numbers problem.

So. You might not get this but when 15 CoRs are firing out you, too, can also have 15 players on you. If that is the case instead of being hit by 15 CoRs you will get hit by maybe 5 (if you have any discipline and stick close to together). This is survivable with protection, some toughness, and aegis for one of those hits. That also implies you are 15 v 15 revs and not say, 40 v 40 with the enemy having 15 revs. In which case you're likely getting hit by 1 or 2 of them unless the enemy is insanely good at lining up their damage in which case YOU SHOULD DIE and absolutely no change in the game is ever going to fix this. 15 guardian staff 2s will do the exact same thing. Fortunately latency and shit is a thing so even if people are really good having them all hit at once is very hard.

[Justine.6351]

If they ever get scourges down to the point of 1 in 5 players in a zerg, or lower, I might actually try playing reaper again.

[Svarty.8019]

@Ashantara.8731 said:I'd rather see new maps in WvW with fresh ways of engaging an enemy through different landscapes and map mechanics and new ways of capturing objects rather than constant profession nerfs.

We'd all like to see new maps, but with Anet's insistence on making them overly complex and intricate, we're unlikely to see anything akin to this before the ice age cometh, especially as they've stated on the Livestream that they aren't working on any new WvW maps and they aren't even on their bottomless list of interesting stuff they would like to (but won't) do - so I think it's safe to forget that notion.

[Swagger.1459]

@God.2708 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:

@God.2708 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:

@God.2708 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:

@God.2708 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:

@God.2708 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:

@God.2708 said:Not going to notice a ~40% reduction of scourge damage? Yes, I think people will notice that.

How do you not understand that comment? You should mentally process the scenario for zerg fights, it might help you understand.

If you are a single person getting 20 scourges worth of damage lobbed at you, you are indeed probably dead. If you are a player amongst a 40 person zerg and 20 scourges are lobbing damage at you, the odds of you getting hit by 20 scourges worth of damage will have been MASSIVELY reduced making your death much less likely.

Nobody is really going to notice when you still have hundreds of AoEs being tossed around back and forth.

Yes, people will notice. You might not. Which sounds like a personal problem. But plenty of good players will.

There were complaints about too many AoEs prior to pof and scourge, so you don’t really have a point. This change is not moving the gameplay needle.

It clearly will reduce the damage scourge blobs deal against enemy blobs, so not sure what exactly is the point of this argument <.<

The point is you will still have wall to wall AoE carpeting inside of wvw. And as a result, the devs are hesitant to make other adjustments.

There were too many AoEs before scourge and too many AoEs after scourge. This won’t change how wvw zerg combat plays out.

There's nothing inherently wrong with wall to wall AoE carpets. This may come as a surprise but AoE carpets don't just up and kill people. Especially if they are wall to wall.

You seem as if you haven’t been paying attention to wvw much, or the years of complaints. You also seem unaware that having too many AoEs puts some limitations on the devs making other changes to the game. Another also, you seem to not understand that this game strongly favors ranged over melee, and that cuts out a number of potential build options from growing into the meta. Finally, shades were 5 target before, while traited, so it’s not like we haven’t been there, and it’s not like it wasn’t ever “aoe wars” before.

You may think mindlessly spamming AoEs all over is quality gameplay, but some of us don’t.

AoE carpets have little to do with melee vs ranged. The core meta was full of both melee and ranged and AoE carpets. AoE doesn't cut anything out of the meta. I have been paying attention plenty to both WvW and the years of complaints and in general most of the complaints come from people like you, who don't seem to know much of what they are talking about.

Shades were always ten target with Sand Savant. The fact that before it was 5 at ranged and 5 at melee vs now as 10 ranged or 10 melee doesn't change that it hit 10 targets and that is a major source of the scourges strength.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Manifest_Sand_Shade

“Increased the number of targets affected by shade skills from 3 to 5.”

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Manifest_Sand_Shade/history

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sand_Savant

“Increased the number of targets affected by the larger shade from 2 to 5 so that it now affects up to 10 targets”

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sand_Savant/history

Acting as if the change back to 5 will be noticeable when there are hundreds of aoes being tossed back and forth is silly.

I am actually somewhat amazed you did not know how shades worked before. I took can link the wiki.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Manifest_Sand_Shade

.666 Power mod3700 Power on a typical power scourge.1050 Weapon might average for ascended weapon

3700

1050

.66 = 2,564,100 damage.1,303 damage against a 1967 armor target (light armor with no toughness)693 damage against a 3700 armor target (typical minstrels firebrand)998 damage on average (before critical hits and other mods, though scourges don't have to many that typically come into play)

With this change Anet has now removed998 (average hit)

20 (number of scourges you claim)

5 (number of targets removed from shade max) * 5 (number of times manifest sand shade procs in a shade spike) = 499,000 damage removed from a zergs typical opening spike.

This is the same damage it used to do at range, yes. But the goal with this change is to make melee more friendly. Now they have an appropriate leveled range spike and a similar one at melee, and neither of those spikes is particularly profound (A single weaver by comparison drops that much damage in a meteor shower assuming some silly luck with every meteor hitting)

@DeadlySynz.3471 said:

@God.2708 said:Not going to notice a ~40% reduction of scourge damage? Yes, I think people will notice that.

They actually wouldn't. Doesn't matter how tanky you are, the difference between wearing zerk vs full tank and being hit by 10-20 people at once about 1 second in survival. Reducing scourges damage 40% may up that to about 1.4 seconds in survival to someone who is full tank. Then again if people are really unhappy with scourges, they're likely going to jump onto the biggest culprit of damage out there, the Rev. Now do we really need THAT many Rev's on the battle field lobbing their hammers? What do you think the chances of survival are by being hit with say 15 CoR's in a matter of 2 seconds followed by a handful of phase smashes and hammer drops?

This is exactly what people aren't getting, they don't understand they aren't just being hit by 1 person, they are being hit by many. That is not a class problem, that's a numbers problem.

So. You might not get this but when 15 CoRs are firing out you, too, can also have 15 players on you. If that is the case instead of being hit by 15 CoRs you will get hit by maybe 5 (if you have any discipline and stick close to together). This is survivable with protection, some toughness, and aegis for one of those hits. That also implies you are 15 v 15 revs and not say, 40 v 40 with the enemy having 15 revs. In which case you're likely getting hit by 1 or 2 of them unless the enemy is insanely good at lining up their damage in which case YOU SHOULD DIE and absolutely no change in the game is ever going to fix this. 15 guardian staff 2s will do the exact same thing. Fortunately latency and kitten is a thing so even if people are really good having them all hit at once is very hard.

And I'm amazed that you think the mega ton amount of AoEs are just fine for wvw. Even more amazing is neglecting the fact that you have a hundred+ players, at times, lobbing various AoEs, and the change to scourge won't make a dent in gameplay as we know it. Do I need to post some pre-change and post-change scourge zerg vids so you can remember?

And pay attention to some simple numbers...

@Swagger.1459 said:@"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said:“We considered the nerfs for passives in WvW. But in the end we were really concerned that the reduced defenses would make large group fights a lot less fun. There are just too many AOEs being flung around.

I'd welcome more discussion though.”

In wvw only, reduce all ranged AoE and PBAoE attacks, from player skills (not siege), to 3 targets max. Increase damage some to compensate. *Even a change limited to reducing target amounts on ranged AoE skills would be a healthy step...

Necro needs to have their access to ranged AoE skills toned down. Staff skills and Wells are way more than enough, and ranged Shades make it overkill. Necro didn’t need more ranged AoE, it needed mobility...

Edit- As it stands, 1 Scourge using staff has 7 ranged AoEs to use. Now multiply this by 10 Scourges in a squad and you have 70 ranged AoEs being tossed around at any given time. Now lets take 2 opposing sides and make it 20 Scourges pumping out 140 AoEs around the battle field...

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/39165/healthy-manifest-shade-and-sand-swell-revamp

“1- Change Manifest Shade to a ground target movement skill, and remove Shades and AoE damage function from the equation. This would provide the much needed mobility for necro and reduce some of the unhealthy AoE ranged damage spam in wvw. Let’s call this new skill “Shifting Sands”...

“Shifting Sands uses some of your life force to move around the battle field... Blah blah blah”

-Damage: 177 (0.666)-Cripple (2s): -50% Movement Speed-Number of Targets: 1-Radius: 130-Range: 900

*All other shroud skills remain the same, sans the now gone Shades.

2- Change https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sand_Swell to 1,200 range. Remove the damage and boon conversion function. Reduce the cooldown. Make it break stun when used. Similar to skills like https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadowstep and https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blink

“Plunge into the ground, creating a portal through Tyria for allied use. Grant allies using this passage a health barrier. Break Stun.”

-Barrier: 1,618 (0.75)-Duration: 8s-Radius: 180-Range: 1,200-Break Stun-Recharge 30s

I know some traits can change to accommodate this, and I’ll look at those later.

Thanks!”

Edit with some basic "maths"...https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hammer_Bolt 5 targetshttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Coalescence_of_Ruin 5 targetshttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Phase_Smash 5 Targetshttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Drop_the_Hammer 5 targetshttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Necrotic_Grasp 5 targetshttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mark_of_Blood 5 targetshttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Chilblains 5 targetshttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Putrid_Mark 5 targetshttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Reaper's_Mark 5 targetsMax Count 3 https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Manifest_Sand_Shade 3 targets

• 1 hammer Revenant and 1 staff Scourge have access to 12 ranged AoEs. The total number of targets potentially being hit by 1 of each AoE skill combined is 54 targets.
• 2 hammer Revenants and 2 staff Scourges have access to 24 ranged AoEs. The total number of targets potentially being hit by 1 of each AoE skill combined is 108 targets.
• 3 hammer Revenants and 3 staff Scourges have access to 36 ranged AoEs. The total number of targets potentially being hit by 1 of each AoE skill combined is 162 targets.
• 4 hammer Revenants and 4 staff Scourges have access to 48 ranged AoEs. The total number of targets potentially being hit by 1 of each AoE skill combined is 216 targets.
• 5 hammer Revenants and 5 staff Scourges have access to 60 ranged AoEs. The total number of targets potentially being hit by 1 of each AoE skill combined is 270 targets.
• 6 hammer Revenants and 6 staff Scourges have access to 72 ranged AoEs. The total number of targets potentially being hit by 1 of each AoE skill combined is 324 targets.
• 7 hammer Revenants and 7 staff Scourges have access to 84 ranged AoEs. The total number of targets potentially being hit by 1 of each AoE skill combined is 378 targets.
• 8 hammer Revenants and 8 staff Scourges have access to 96 ranged AoEs. The total number of targets potentially being hit by 1 of each AoE skill combined is 432 targets.
• 9 hammer Revenants and 9 staff Scourges have access to 108 ranged AoEs. The total number of targets potentially being hit by 1 of each AoE skill combined is 486 targets.
• 10 hammer - Revenants and 10 staff Scourges have access to 120 ranged AoEs. The total number of targets potentially being hit by 1 of each AoE skill combined is 540 targets.

2 blobs containing 10 hammer Revenants and 10 staff Scourges are producing 1,080 target ranged AoEs using 1 ranged AoE skill EACH in total.

3 blobs containing 10 hammer Revenants and 10 staff Scourges are producing 1,620 target ranged AoEs using 1 ranged AoE skill EACH in total.

And we are not even factoring in calculations from other Ranged AoE attacks, PBAoE attacks, Condis, Buffs, Heals, passives... and all sorts of other things the system has to process…

So if we reduced all ranged AoEs in the example above to 3, and remove ranged Shades from Scourge, it looks like this…

NEW NUMBERS USING MY SUGGESTION...https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hammer_Bolt 3 targetshttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Coalescence_of_Ruin 3 targetshttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Phase_Smash 3 Targetshttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Drop_the_Hammer 3 targetshttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Necrotic_Grasp 3 targetshttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mark_of_Blood 3 targetshttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Chilblains 3 targetshttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Putrid_Mark 3 targetshttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Reaper's_Mark 3 targets

• 1 hammer Revenant and 1 staff Scourge have access to 9 ranged AoEs. The total number of targets potentially being hit by 1 of each AoE skill combined is 27 targets.
• 2 hammer Revenants and 2 staff Scourges have access to 18 ranged AoEs. The total number of targets potentially being hit by 1 of each AoE skill combined is 54 targets.
• 3 hammer Revenants and 3 staff Scourges have access to 27 ranged AoEs. The total number of targets potentially being hit by 1 of each AoE skill combined is 81 targets.
• 4 hammer Revenants and 4 staff Scourges have access to 36 ranged AoEs. The total number of targets potentially being hit by 1 of each AoE skill combined is 108 targets.
• 5 hammer Revenants and 5 staff Scourges have access to 45 ranged AoEs. The total number of targets potentially being hit by 1 of each AoE skill combined is 135 targets.
• 6 hammer Revenants and 6 staff Scourges have access to 54 ranged AoEs. The total number of targets potentially being hit by 1 of each AoE skill combined is 162 targets.
• 7 hammer Revenants and 7 staff Scourges have access to 63 ranged AoEs. The total number of targets potentially being hit by 1 of each AoE skill combined is 189 targets.
• 8 hammer Revenants and 8 staff Scourges have access to 72 ranged AoEs. The total number of targets potentially being hit by 1 of each AoE skill combined is 216 targets.
• 9 hammer Revenants and 9 staff Scourges have access to 81 ranged AoEs. The total number of targets potentially being hit by 1 of each AoE skill combined is 243 targets.
• 10 hammer Revenants and 10 staff Scourges have access to 90 ranged AoEs. The total number of targets potentially being hit by 1 of each AoE skill combined is 270 targets.

2 blobs containing 10 hammer Revenants and 10 staff Scourges are now producing 540 target ranged AoEs using 1 AoE skill EACH in total.

3 blobs containing 10 hammer Revenants and 10 staff Scourges are producing 810 target ranged AoEs using 1 AoE skill EACH in total.

Now imagine if we extended this 3 target limit to ALL other ranged AoE skills, PBAoE skills, AoE buffs and AoE heals? We could basically cut out HALF of the calculations the system needs to make inside of WvW…

[DeadlySynz.3471]

@God.2708 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:

@God.2708 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:

@God.2708 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:

@God.2708 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:

@God.2708 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:

@God.2708 said:Not going to notice a ~40% reduction of scourge damage? Yes, I think people will notice that.

How do you not understand that comment? You should mentally process the scenario for zerg fights, it might help you understand.

If you are a single person getting 20 scourges worth of damage lobbed at you, you are indeed probably dead. If you are a player amongst a 40 person zerg and 20 scourges are lobbing damage at you, the odds of you getting hit by 20 scourges worth of damage will have been MASSIVELY reduced making your death much less likely.

Nobody is really going to notice when you still have hundreds of AoEs being tossed around back and forth.

Yes, people will notice. You might not. Which sounds like a personal problem. But plenty of good players will.

There were complaints about too many AoEs prior to pof and scourge, so you don’t really have a point. This change is not moving the gameplay needle.

It clearly will reduce the damage scourge blobs deal against enemy blobs, so not sure what exactly is the point of this argument <.<

The point is you will still have wall to wall AoE carpeting inside of wvw. And as a result, the devs are hesitant to make other adjustments.

There were too many AoEs before scourge and too many AoEs after scourge. This won’t change how wvw zerg combat plays out.

There's nothing inherently wrong with wall to wall AoE carpets. This may come as a surprise but AoE carpets don't just up and kill people. Especially if they are wall to wall.

You seem as if you haven’t been paying attention to wvw much, or the years of complaints. You also seem unaware that having too many AoEs puts some limitations on the devs making other changes to the game. Another also, you seem to not understand that this game strongly favors ranged over melee, and that cuts out a number of potential build options from growing into the meta. Finally, shades were 5 target before, while traited, so it’s not like we haven’t been there, and it’s not like it wasn’t ever “aoe wars” before.

You may think mindlessly spamming AoEs all over is quality gameplay, but some of us don’t.

AoE carpets have little to do with melee vs ranged. The core meta was full of both melee and ranged and AoE carpets. AoE doesn't cut anything out of the meta. I have been paying attention plenty to both WvW and the years of complaints and in general most of the complaints come from people like you, who don't seem to know much of what they are talking about.

Shades were always ten target with Sand Savant. The fact that before it was 5 at ranged and 5 at melee vs now as 10 ranged or 10 melee doesn't change that it hit 10 targets and that is a major source of the scourges strength.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Manifest_Sand_Shade

“Increased the number of targets affected by shade skills from 3 to 5.”

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Manifest_Sand_Shade/history

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sand_Savant

“Increased the number of targets affected by the larger shade from 2 to 5 so that it now affects up to 10 targets”

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sand_Savant/history

Acting as if the change back to 5 will be noticeable when there are hundreds of aoes being tossed back and forth is silly.

I am actually somewhat amazed you did not know how shades worked before. I took can link the wiki.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Manifest_Sand_Shade

.666 Power mod3700 Power on a typical power scourge.1050 Weapon might average for ascended weapon

3700

1050

.66 = 2,564,100 damage.1,303 damage against a 1967 armor target (light armor with no toughness)693 damage against a 3700 armor target (typical minstrels firebrand)998 damage on average (before critical hits and other mods, though scourges don't have to many that typically come into play)

With this change Anet has now removed998 (average hit)

20 (number of scourges you claim)

5 (number of targets removed from shade max) * 5 (number of times manifest sand shade procs in a shade spike) = 499,000 damage removed from a zergs typical opening spike.

This is the same damage it used to do at range, yes. But the goal with this change is to make melee more friendly. Now they have an appropriate leveled range spike and a similar one at melee, and neither of those spikes is particularly profound (A single weaver by comparison drops that much damage in a meteor shower assuming some silly luck with every meteor hitting)

@DeadlySynz.3471 said:

@God.2708 said:Not going to notice a ~40% reduction of scourge damage? Yes, I think people will notice that.

They actually wouldn't. Doesn't matter how tanky you are, the difference between wearing zerk vs full tank and being hit by 10-20 people at once about 1 second in survival. Reducing scourges damage 40% may up that to about 1.4 seconds in survival to someone who is full tank. Then again if people are really unhappy with scourges, they're likely going to jump onto the biggest culprit of damage out there, the Rev. Now do we really need THAT many Rev's on the battle field lobbing their hammers? What do you think the chances of survival are by being hit with say 15 CoR's in a matter of 2 seconds followed by a handful of phase smashes and hammer drops?

This is exactly what people aren't getting, they don't understand they aren't just being hit by 1 person, they are being hit by many. That is not a class problem, that's a numbers problem.

So. You might not get this but when 15 CoRs are firing out you, too, can also have 15 players on you. If that is the case instead of being hit by 15 CoRs you will get hit by maybe 5 (if you have any discipline and stick close to together). This is survivable with protection, some toughness, and aegis for one of those hits. That also implies you are 15 v 15 revs and not say, 40 v 40 with the enemy having 15 revs. In which case you're likely getting hit by 1 or 2 of them unless the enemy is insanely good at lining up their damage in which case YOU SHOULD DIE and absolutely no change in the game is ever going to fix this. 15 guardian staff 2s will do the exact same thing. Fortunately latency and kitten is a thing so even if people are really good having them all hit at once is very hard.

You described exactly what is considered a numbers problem, not a class problem (as many have already said). The bigger group (regardless of their comp) will beat a smaller group. If we factor in proper comp, which most people anyway come to WvW with scourges and Rev's it makes the damage that much more devastating when focused on a smaller group. So what happens if it's even say 50 vs 50 or 70 vs 70? Lets assume we have 20-25 scourges in these comps, so we have 20-25 potential shades being dropped on the melee group. Now not all of them will be sticking to the commander. The ele's won't, the hammer rev's wont (which will likely make up another large chunk of the comp), nor will any of the pesky ranged classes, and likely some scourges will fall behind but still are in range to drop on the main group.

In reality, a group of 50, you're lucky to have 25 grouped up running in; same goes on both side. If all the scourges are focusing their damage on that group, 25 is not a very big number to share damage. The problem also lies if the Scourges run full condition (frankly anybody who runs power scourge is doing it completely wrong as there is too much damage mitigation).

If you have even 10 condition scourges dropping whatever crap on the group they can, there is little the main group can do. Unless the Revs are running resistance (which many don't because full damage hammer is better), and Firebrands are on perfect rotation with resistance, the condition will obliterate the melee group. Here is the thing Anet cannot reduce condition damage because it must be equal to power but over time. Even if Scourges had both their power and condition damage attacks reduced 40%, and because players cannot figure out how to play against condition (or refuse to have cleanse), the enemy will only last 40% longer. Which in our example, living from 1s to 1.4s is hardly going to be noticeable.

But switching gears here, I'll weigh in on what i'll do which is going to be far more problematic for players if/when the scourge changes goes through. I either play Dragonhunter, Hammer Rev, or Scourge in WvW, I don't deviate away from those because I hate melee. My least favorite is the scourge because they are too slow, so I tend to play Rev more than anything. I tend to play with the banners a lot (or I used to), because it came to the point that if myself in particular was carrying one, the battles were too lopsided. I was single handedly causing the enemy group to lose miserably even when they thought they had the upper hand. Pretty much the point I decided to go in full force, they lost, every single time. So what started happening is they refused to engage, many commanders even logged, so I stopped picking them up. In some cases, the second the group noticed it was me carrying the banner, they swapped maps. Fair enough, I get it, i'll make it more fair and stop picking them up. Rarely could a roamer/ganker get to me either, and I had many on me; they would sometimes, and kill me, but it's more like a 1 out of 50 times they'll succeed. I've had groups load up on 5 banners in hopes to make a point; didn't work, killed all their banner users and continued to decimate their group. What's going to happen if this change goes through, I'll resort to going back to banner (until I get bored and jump on the Dragonhunter). I'll get salty and angry whispers (likely from many people calling for Scourge nerfs), including my own team, but my answer will be "oh well".

[God.2708]

@Swagger.1459 said:

And I'm amazed that you think the mega ton amount of AoEs are just fine for wvw. Even more amazing is neglecting the fact that you have a hundred+ players, at times, lobbing various AoEs, and the change to scourge won't make a dent in gameplay as we know it. Do I need to post some pre-change and post-change scourge zerg vids so you can remember?

And pay attention to some simple numbers...

@Swagger.1459 said:@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:“We considered the nerfs for passives in WvW. But in the end we were really concerned that the reduced defenses would make large group fights a lot less fun. There are just too many AOEs being flung around.

I'd welcome more discussion though.”

Right, so you're suggesting an extremist form of what is already happening to scourges because they gained the ability to do something no other class should (Spike 10 targets instead of 5). I'm glad you agree with me. I disagree that the 5 target cap should be reduced to 3. That would be unhealthy for the mode in its current state.

@DeadlySynz.3471 said:

@God.2708 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:

@God.2708 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:

@God.2708 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:

@God.2708 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:

@God.2708 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:

@God.2708 said:Not going to notice a ~40% reduction of scourge damage? Yes, I think people will notice that.

How do you not understand that comment? You should mentally process the scenario for zerg fights, it might help you understand.

If you are a single person getting 20 scourges worth of damage lobbed at you, you are indeed probably dead. If you are a player amongst a 40 person zerg and 20 scourges are lobbing damage at you, the odds of you getting hit by 20 scourges worth of damage will have been MASSIVELY reduced making your death much less likely.

Nobody is really going to notice when you still have hundreds of AoEs being tossed around back and forth.

Yes, people will notice. You might not. Which sounds like a personal problem. But plenty of good players will.

There were complaints about too many AoEs prior to pof and scourge, so you don’t really have a point. This change is not moving the gameplay needle.

It clearly will reduce the damage scourge blobs deal against enemy blobs, so not sure what exactly is the point of this argument <.<

The point is you will still have wall to wall AoE carpeting inside of wvw. And as a result, the devs are hesitant to make other adjustments.

There were too many AoEs before scourge and too many AoEs after scourge. This won’t change how wvw zerg combat plays out.

There's nothing inherently wrong with wall to wall AoE carpets. This may come as a surprise but AoE carpets don't just up and kill people. Especially if they are wall to wall.

You seem as if you haven’t been paying attention to wvw much, or the years of complaints. You also seem unaware that having too many AoEs puts some limitations on the devs making other changes to the game. Another also, you seem to not understand that this game strongly favors ranged over melee, and that cuts out a number of potential build options from growing into the meta. Finally, shades were 5 target before, while traited, so it’s not like we haven’t been there, and it’s not like it wasn’t ever “aoe wars” before.

You may think mindlessly spamming AoEs all over is quality gameplay, but some of us don’t.

AoE carpets have little to do with melee vs ranged. The core meta was full of both melee and ranged and AoE carpets. AoE doesn't cut anything out of the meta. I have been paying attention plenty to both WvW and the years of complaints and in general most of the complaints come from people like you, who don't seem to know much of what they are talking about.

Shades were always ten target with Sand Savant. The fact that before it was 5 at ranged and 5 at melee vs now as 10 ranged or 10 melee doesn't change that it hit 10 targets and that is a major source of the scourges strength.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Manifest_Sand_Shade

“Increased the number of targets affected by shade skills from 3 to 5.”

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Manifest_Sand_Shade/history

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sand_Savant

“Increased the number of targets affected by the larger shade from 2 to 5 so that it now affects up to 10 targets”

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sand_Savant/history

Acting as if the change back to 5 will be noticeable when there are hundreds of aoes being tossed back and forth is silly.

I am actually somewhat amazed you did not know how shades worked before. I took can link the wiki.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Manifest_Sand_Shade

.666 Power mod3700 Power on a typical power scourge.1050 Weapon might average for ascended weapon

3700

1050

.66 = 2,564,100 damage.1,303 damage against a 1967 armor target (light armor with no toughness)693 damage against a 3700 armor target (typical minstrels firebrand)998 damage on average (before critical hits and other mods, though scourges don't have to many that typically come into play)

With this change Anet has now removed998 (average hit)

20 (number of scourges you claim)

5 (number of targets removed from shade max) * 5 (number of times manifest sand shade procs in a shade spike) = 499,000 damage removed from a zergs typical opening spike.

This is the same damage it used to do at range, yes. But the goal with this change is to make melee more friendly. Now they have an appropriate leveled range spike and a similar one at melee, and neither of those spikes is particularly profound (A single weaver by comparison drops that much damage in a meteor shower assuming some silly luck with every meteor hitting)

@DeadlySynz.3471 said:

@God.2708 said:Not going to notice a ~40% reduction of scourge damage? Yes, I think people will notice that.

They actually wouldn't. Doesn't matter how tanky you are, the difference between wearing zerk vs full tank and being hit by 10-20 people at once about 1 second in survival. Reducing scourges damage 40% may up that to about 1.4 seconds in survival to someone who is full tank. Then again if people are really unhappy with scourges, they're likely going to jump onto the biggest culprit of damage out there, the Rev. Now do we really need THAT many Rev's on the battle field lobbing their hammers? What do you think the chances of survival are by being hit with say 15 CoR's in a matter of 2 seconds followed by a handful of phase smashes and hammer drops?

This is exactly what people aren't getting, they don't understand they aren't just being hit by 1 person, they are being hit by many. That is not a class problem, that's a numbers problem.

So. You might not get this but when 15 CoRs are firing out you, too, can also have 15 players on you. If that is the case instead of being hit by 15 CoRs you will get hit by maybe 5 (if you have any discipline and stick close to together). This is survivable with protection, some toughness, and aegis for one of those hits. That also implies you are 15 v 15 revs and not say, 40 v 40 with the enemy having 15 revs. In which case you're likely getting hit by 1 or 2 of them unless the enemy is insanely good at lining up their damage in which case YOU SHOULD DIE and absolutely no change in the game is ever going to fix this. 15 guardian staff 2s will do the exact same thing. Fortunately latency and kitten is a thing so even if people are really good having them all hit at once is very hard.

You described exactly what is considered a numbers problem, not a class problem (as many have already said). The bigger group (regardless of their comp) will beat a smaller group. If we factor in proper comp, which most people anyway come to WvW with scourges and Rev's it makes the damage that much more devastating when focused on a smaller group. So what happens if it's even say 50 vs 50 or 70 vs 70? Lets assume we have 20-25 scourges in these comps, so we have 20-25 potential shades being dropped on the melee group. Now not all of them will be sticking to the commander. The ele's won't, the hammer rev's wont (which will likely make up another large chunk of the comp), nor will any of the pesky ranged classes, and likely some scourges will fall behind but still are in range to drop on the main group.

Yes. The group with more numbers will win if the smaller group does not achieve advantages in other forms. Surprise? You are discussing an issue with WvW's game state and lack of motivation to do anything besides blob around looking for fights. Not a balance issue. I'm glad you hate melee. That doesn't change the fact that melee is inherently more healthy for the game mode. As I saw eloquently put one time, ranged has a place in a melee meta. Melee has no place in a ranged meta.

[Swagger.1459]

@God.2708 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:

And I'm amazed that you think the mega ton amount of AoEs are just fine for wvw. Even more amazing is neglecting the fact that you have a hundred+ players, at times, lobbing various AoEs, and the change to scourge won't make a dent in gameplay as we know it. Do I need to post some pre-change and post-change scourge zerg vids so you can remember?

And pay attention to some simple numbers...

@Swagger.1459 said:@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:“We considered the nerfs for passives in WvW. But in the end we were really concerned that the reduced defenses would make large group fights a lot less fun. There are just too many AOEs being flung around.

I'd welcome more discussion though.”

Right, so you're suggesting an extremist form of what is already happening to scourges because they gained the ability to do something no other class should (Spike 10 targets instead of 5). I'm glad you agree with me. I disagree that the 5 target cap should be reduced to 3. That would be unhealthy for the mode in its current state.

@DeadlySynz.3471 said:

@God.2708 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:

@God.2708 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:

@God.2708 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:

@God.2708 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:

@God.2708 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:

@God.2708 said:Not going to notice a ~40% reduction of scourge damage? Yes, I think people will notice that.

How do you not understand that comment? You should mentally process the scenario for zerg fights, it might help you understand.

If you are a single person getting 20 scourges worth of damage lobbed at you, you are indeed probably dead. If you are a player amongst a 40 person zerg and 20 scourges are lobbing damage at you, the odds of you getting hit by 20 scourges worth of damage will have been MASSIVELY reduced making your death much less likely.

Nobody is really going to notice when you still have hundreds of AoEs being tossed around back and forth.

Yes, people will notice. You might not. Which sounds like a personal problem. But plenty of good players will.

There were complaints about too many AoEs prior to pof and scourge, so you don’t really have a point. This change is not moving the gameplay needle.

It clearly will reduce the damage scourge blobs deal against enemy blobs, so not sure what exactly is the point of this argument <.<

The point is you will still have wall to wall AoE carpeting inside of wvw. And as a result, the devs are hesitant to make other adjustments.

There were too many AoEs before scourge and too many AoEs after scourge. This won’t change how wvw zerg combat plays out.

There's nothing inherently wrong with wall to wall AoE carpets. This may come as a surprise but AoE carpets don't just up and kill people. Especially if they are wall to wall.

You seem as if you haven’t been paying attention to wvw much, or the years of complaints. You also seem unaware that having too many AoEs puts some limitations on the devs making other changes to the game. Another also, you seem to not understand that this game strongly favors ranged over melee, and that cuts out a number of potential build options from growing into the meta. Finally, shades were 5 target before, while traited, so it’s not like we haven’t been there, and it’s not like it wasn’t ever “aoe wars” before.

You may think mindlessly spamming AoEs all over is quality gameplay, but some of us don’t.

AoE carpets have little to do with melee vs ranged. The core meta was full of both melee and ranged and AoE carpets. AoE doesn't cut anything out of the meta. I have been paying attention plenty to both WvW and the years of complaints and in general most of the complaints come from people like you, who don't seem to know much of what they are talking about.

Shades were always ten target with Sand Savant. The fact that before it was 5 at ranged and 5 at melee vs now as 10 ranged or 10 melee doesn't change that it hit 10 targets and that is a major source of the scourges strength.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Manifest_Sand_Shade

“Increased the number of targets affected by shade skills from 3 to 5.”

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Manifest_Sand_Shade/history

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sand_Savant

“Increased the number of targets affected by the larger shade from 2 to 5 so that it now affects up to 10 targets”

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sand_Savant/history

Acting as if the change back to 5 will be noticeable when there are hundreds of aoes being tossed back and forth is silly.

I am actually somewhat amazed you did not know how shades worked before. I took can link the wiki.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Manifest_Sand_Shade

.666 Power mod3700 Power on a typical power scourge.1050 Weapon might average for ascended weapon

3700

1050

.66 = 2,564,100 damage.1,303 damage against a 1967 armor target (light armor with no toughness)693 damage against a 3700 armor target (typical minstrels firebrand)998 damage on average (before critical hits and other mods, though scourges don't have to many that typically come into play)

With this change Anet has now removed998 (average hit)

20 (number of scourges you claim)

5 (number of targets removed from shade max) * 5 (number of times manifest sand shade procs in a shade spike) = 499,000 damage removed from a zergs typical opening spike.

This is the same damage it used to do at range, yes. But the goal with this change is to make melee more friendly. Now they have an appropriate leveled range spike and a similar one at melee, and neither of those spikes is particularly profound (A single weaver by comparison drops that much damage in a meteor shower assuming some silly luck with every meteor hitting)

@DeadlySynz.3471 said:

@God.2708 said:Not going to notice a ~40% reduction of scourge damage? Yes, I think people will notice that.

They actually wouldn't. Doesn't matter how tanky you are, the difference between wearing zerk vs full tank and being hit by 10-20 people at once about 1 second in survival. Reducing scourges damage 40% may up that to about 1.4 seconds in survival to someone who is full tank. Then again if people are really unhappy with scourges, they're likely going to jump onto the biggest culprit of damage out there, the Rev. Now do we really need THAT many Rev's on the battle field lobbing their hammers? What do you think the chances of survival are by being hit with say 15 CoR's in a matter of 2 seconds followed by a handful of phase smashes and hammer drops?

This is exactly what people aren't getting, they don't understand they aren't just being hit by 1 person, they are being hit by many. That is not a class problem, that's a numbers problem.

So. You might not get this but when 15 CoRs are firing out you, too, can also have 15 players on you. If that is the case instead of being hit by 15 CoRs you will get hit by maybe 5 (if you have any discipline and stick close to together). This is survivable with protection, some toughness, and aegis for one of those hits. That also implies you are 15 v 15 revs and not say, 40 v 40 with the enemy having 15 revs. In which case you're likely getting hit by 1 or 2 of them unless the enemy is insanely good at lining up their damage in which case YOU SHOULD DIE and absolutely no change in the game is ever going to fix this. 15 guardian staff 2s will do the exact same thing. Fortunately latency and kitten is a thing so even if people are really good having them all hit at once is very hard.

You described exactly what is considered a numbers problem, not a class problem (as many have already said). The bigger group (regardless of their comp) will beat a smaller group. If we factor in proper comp, which most people anyway come to WvW with scourges and Rev's it makes the damage that much more devastating when focused on a smaller group. So what happens if it's even say 50 vs 50 or 70 vs 70? Lets assume we have 20-25 scourges in these comps, so we have 20-25 potential shades being dropped on the melee group. Now not all of them will be sticking to the commander. The ele's won't, the hammer rev's wont (which will likely make up another large chunk of the comp), nor will any of the pesky ranged classes, and likely some scourges will fall behind but still are in range to drop on the main group.

Yes. The group with more numbers will win if the smaller group does not achieve advantages in other forms. Surprise? You are discussing an issue with WvW's game state and lack of motivation to do anything besides blob around looking for fights. Not a balance issue. I'm glad you hate melee. That doesn't change the fact that melee is inherently more healthy for the game mode. As I saw eloquently put one time, ranged has a place in a melee meta. Melee has no place in a ranged meta.

Are you having a difficult time following along? Are you aware of why I posted that? Doesn't seem so...

I know you like to keep changing arguments, but this was my original statement... "Not like you’re going to notice a difference with 20+ Necros, and other professions, lobbing hundreds of AoEs your way lol". You can't spin doctor your way out of the fact that things won't change just by a shade change alone for wvw zerg play.

[God.2708]

@Swagger.1459 said:

@God.2708 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:

And I'm amazed that you think the mega ton amount of AoEs are just fine for wvw. Even more amazing is neglecting the fact that you have a hundred+ players, at times, lobbing various AoEs, and the change to scourge won't make a dent in gameplay as we know it. Do I need to post some pre-change and post-change scourge zerg vids so you can remember?

And pay attention to some simple numbers...

@Swagger.1459 said:@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:“We considered the nerfs for passives in WvW. But in the end we were really concerned that the reduced defenses would make large group fights a lot less fun. There are just too many AOEs being flung around.

I'd welcome more discussion though.”

Right, so you're suggesting an extremist form of what is already happening to scourges because they gained the ability to do something no other class should (Spike 10 targets instead of 5). I'm glad you agree with me. I disagree that the 5 target cap should be reduced to 3. That would be unhealthy for the mode in its current state.

@DeadlySynz.3471 said:

@God.2708 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:

@God.2708 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:

@God.2708 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:

@God.2708 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:

@God.2708 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:

@God.2708 said:Not going to notice a ~40% reduction of scourge damage? Yes, I think people will notice that.

How do you not understand that comment? You should mentally process the scenario for zerg fights, it might help you understand.

If you are a single person getting 20 scourges worth of damage lobbed at you, you are indeed probably dead. If you are a player amongst a 40 person zerg and 20 scourges are lobbing damage at you, the odds of you getting hit by 20 scourges worth of damage will have been MASSIVELY reduced making your death much less likely.

Nobody is really going to notice when you still have hundreds of AoEs being tossed around back and forth.

Yes, people will notice. You might not. Which sounds like a personal problem. But plenty of good players will.

There were complaints about too many AoEs prior to pof and scourge, so you don’t really have a point. This change is not moving the gameplay needle.

It clearly will reduce the damage scourge blobs deal against enemy blobs, so not sure what exactly is the point of this argument <.<

The point is you will still have wall to wall AoE carpeting inside of wvw. And as a result, the devs are hesitant to make other adjustments.

There were too many AoEs before scourge and too many AoEs after scourge. This won’t change how wvw zerg combat plays out.

There's nothing inherently wrong with wall to wall AoE carpets. This may come as a surprise but AoE carpets don't just up and kill people. Especially if they are wall to wall.

You seem as if you haven’t been paying attention to wvw much, or the years of complaints. You also seem unaware that having too many AoEs puts some limitations on the devs making other changes to the game. Another also, you seem to not understand that this game strongly favors ranged over melee, and that cuts out a number of potential build options from growing into the meta. Finally, shades were 5 target before, while traited, so it’s not like we haven’t been there, and it’s not like it wasn’t ever “aoe wars” before.

You may think mindlessly spamming AoEs all over is quality gameplay, but some of us don’t.

AoE carpets have little to do with melee vs ranged. The core meta was full of both melee and ranged and AoE carpets. AoE doesn't cut anything out of the meta. I have been paying attention plenty to both WvW and the years of complaints and in general most of the complaints come from people like you, who don't seem to know much of what they are talking about.

Shades were always ten target with Sand Savant. The fact that before it was 5 at ranged and 5 at melee vs now as 10 ranged or 10 melee doesn't change that it hit 10 targets and that is a major source of the scourges strength.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Manifest_Sand_Shade

“Increased the number of targets affected by shade skills from 3 to 5.”

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Manifest_Sand_Shade/history

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sand_Savant

“Increased the number of targets affected by the larger shade from 2 to 5 so that it now affects up to 10 targets”

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sand_Savant/history

Acting as if the change back to 5 will be noticeable when there are hundreds of aoes being tossed back and forth is silly.

I am actually somewhat amazed you did not know how shades worked before. I took can link the wiki.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Manifest_Sand_Shade

.666 Power mod3700 Power on a typical power scourge.1050 Weapon might average for ascended weapon

3700

1050

.66 = 2,564,100 damage.1,303 damage against a 1967 armor target (light armor with no toughness)693 damage against a 3700 armor target (typical minstrels firebrand)998 damage on average (before critical hits and other mods, though scourges don't have to many that typically come into play)

With this change Anet has now removed998 (average hit)

20 (number of scourges you claim)

5 (number of targets removed from shade max) * 5 (number of times manifest sand shade procs in a shade spike) = 499,000 damage removed from a zergs typical opening spike.

This is the same damage it used to do at range, yes. But the goal with this change is to make melee more friendly. Now they have an appropriate leveled range spike and a similar one at melee, and neither of those spikes is particularly profound (A single weaver by comparison drops that much damage in a meteor shower assuming some silly luck with every meteor hitting)

@DeadlySynz.3471 said:

@God.2708 said:Not going to notice a ~40% reduction of scourge damage? Yes, I think people will notice that.

They actually wouldn't. Doesn't matter how tanky you are, the difference between wearing zerk vs full tank and being hit by 10-20 people at once about 1 second in survival. Reducing scourges damage 40% may up that to about 1.4 seconds in survival to someone who is full tank. Then again if people are really unhappy with scourges, they're likely going to jump onto the biggest culprit of damage out there, the Rev. Now do we really need THAT many Rev's on the battle field lobbing their hammers? What do you think the chances of survival are by being hit with say 15 CoR's in a matter of 2 seconds followed by a handful of phase smashes and hammer drops?

This is exactly what people aren't getting, they don't understand they aren't just being hit by 1 person, they are being hit by many. That is not a class problem, that's a numbers problem.

So. You might not get this but when 15 CoRs are firing out you, too, can also have 15 players on you. If that is the case instead of being hit by 15 CoRs you will get hit by maybe 5 (if you have any discipline and stick close to together). This is survivable with protection, some toughness, and aegis for one of those hits. That also implies you are 15 v 15 revs and not say, 40 v 40 with the enemy having 15 revs. In which case you're likely getting hit by 1 or 2 of them unless the enemy is insanely good at lining up their damage in which case YOU SHOULD DIE and absolutely no change in the game is ever going to fix this. 15 guardian staff 2s will do the exact same thing. Fortunately latency and kitten is a thing so even if people are really good having them all hit at once is very hard.

You described exactly what is considered a numbers problem, not a class problem (as many have already said). The bigger group (regardless of their comp) will beat a smaller group. If we factor in proper comp, which most people anyway come to WvW with scourges and Rev's it makes the damage that much more devastating when focused on a smaller group. So what happens if it's even say 50 vs 50 or 70 vs 70? Lets assume we have 20-25 scourges in these comps, so we have 20-25 potential shades being dropped on the melee group. Now not all of them will be sticking to the commander. The ele's won't, the hammer rev's wont (which will likely make up another large chunk of the comp), nor will any of the pesky ranged classes, and likely some scourges will fall behind but still are in range to drop on the main group.

Yes. The group with more numbers will win if the smaller group does not achieve advantages in other forms. Surprise? You are discussing an issue with WvW's game state and lack of motivation to do anything besides blob around looking for fights. Not a balance issue. I'm glad you hate melee. That doesn't change the fact that melee is inherently more healthy for the game mode. As I saw eloquently put one time, ranged has a place in a melee meta. Melee has no place in a ranged meta.

Are you having a difficult time following along? Are you aware of why I posted that? Doesn't seem so...

I know you like to keep changing arguments, but this was my original statement... "Not like you’re going to notice a difference with 20+ Necros, and other professions, lobbing hundreds of AoEs your way lol". You can't spin doctor your way out of the fact that things won't change just by a shade change alone for wvw zerg play.

I gave the numbers. You countered by saying you need to nerf all AoEs. Now if you want to make a case that your much larger number is what is needed before you 'notice' fewer AoEs you are welcome to. I personally will be noticing the drastic damage difference with just the shade nerf that will make it much less punishing to be in 900 range of an opposing zerg. If you want to make a statement about AoEs producing server lag you are welcome to (that would be a very valid case to make). As for WvW being a 'AoE fest' I disagree. AoEs play an integral part in large scale combat, and post scourge nerf the mode will be in a semi-healthy (if not probably still dull, state). It sets a very nice foundation for the large sweeping change they are currently putting their efforts towards.

There are undoubtedly some more tweaks to be made but a reduction of everything to 3 targets instead of 5 won't be helpful as this juncture due to how support works and the fact fights would stall to the point warclaw reinforcements would come back faster than groups could wipe.

[Sovereign.1093]

FOO!!! *QUAGGAN

GO nomads x melandru energy renewal

a full q of that staff mace shield guard will devestate all

[Voltekka.2375]

If you get bombed by 20 scourges, alone, it doesnt matter if shade affects 3 or 5 people. You will still die, in fact you SHOULD die (warrs wont). The shade target nerf is justified, 5 people instead of 10 means maybe (fingers crossed) more melee play. PLUS, if a blob is stacked tightly ogether, they can survive a shadebomb easier when the targetcap is 5 instead of 10 (i guess you already know that). "But people will use more scourges!" instead of what? Revs? Probably not, as they can pressure scourges reliably. plus rangebomb, too Spellbreakers? Theyre niche enough as it is. Scrappers? Certainly not, too much awesome support there. I main scourge, I dislike devouring darkness being nerfed again, but... We will see. But nerfing big shade target to 3 is too much. There is simply too much sustain for this to be effective.

[Fish.2769]

@Swagger.1459 said:

@God.2708 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:

@God.2708 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:

@God.2708 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:

@God.2708 said:Not going to notice a ~40% reduction of scourge damage? Yes, I think people will notice that.

How do you not understand that comment? You should mentally process the scenario for zerg fights, it might help you understand.

If you are a single person getting 20 scourges worth of damage lobbed at you, you are indeed probably dead. If you are a player amongst a 40 person zerg and 20 scourges are lobbing damage at you, the odds of you getting hit by 20 scourges worth of damage will have been MASSIVELY reduced making your death much less likely.

Nobody is really going to notice when you still have hundreds of AoEs being tossed around back and forth.

Yes, people will notice. You might not. Which sounds like a personal problem. But plenty of good players will.

There were complaints about too many AoEs prior to pof and scourge, so you don’t really have a point. This change is not moving the gameplay needle.

It clearly will reduce the damage scourge blobs deal against enemy blobs, so not sure what exactly is the point of this argument <.<

The point is you will still have wall to wall AoE carpeting inside of wvw. And as a result, the devs are hesitant to make other adjustments.

There were too many AoEs before scourge and too many AoEs after scourge. This won’t change how wvw zerg combat plays out.

There's nothing inherently wrong with wall to wall AoE carpets. This may come as a surprise but AoE carpets don't just up and kill people. Especially if they are wall to wall.

You seem as if you haven’t been paying attention to wvw much, or the years of complaints. You also seem unaware that having too many AoEs puts some limitations on the devs making other changes to the game. Another also, you seem to not understand that this game strongly favors ranged over melee, and that cuts out a number of potential build options from growing into the meta. Finally, shades were 5 target before, while traited, so it’s not like we haven’t been there, and it’s not like it wasn’t ever “aoe wars” before.

You may think mindlessly spamming AoEs all over is quality gameplay, but some of us don’t.

Ranged is heavily favoured over melee... Interesting point when the meta only shifted away from melee ball trains with HoT release and the whole change to how stability works.

By this comment, i'm going to guess you weren't around for the earlier months/year of WvW and came in at a later time.

[Svarty.8019]

@Voltekka.2375 said:If you get bombed by 20 scourges, alone, it doesnt matter if shade affects 3 or 5 people. You will still die, in fact you SHOULD die (warrs wont). The shade target nerf is justified, 5 people instead of 10 means maybe (fingers crossed) more melee play. PLUS, if a blob is stacked tightly ogether, they can survive a shadebomb easier when the targetcap is 5 instead of 10 (i guess you already know that).

I wonder if packed blobs will sustain through bombs. That used to be a thing .. could be again.

[Strider Pj.2193]

@Svarty.8019 said:

@Voltekka.2375 said:If you get bombed by 20 scourges, alone, it doesnt matter if shade affects 3 or 5 people. You will still die, in fact you SHOULD die (warrs wont). The shade target nerf is justified, 5 people instead of 10 means maybe (fingers crossed) more melee play. PLUS, if a blob is stacked tightly ogether, they can survive a shadebomb easier when the targetcap is 5 instead of 10 (i guess you already know that).

I wonder if packed blobs will sustain through bombs. That used to be a thing .. could be again.

Could be. Which would change the attack strategy some as well.

[Swagger.1459]

The change to Scourge will be amazing for wvw! NERF THOSE LIFE FORCE SUCKERS TO THE GROUND!!!! Muahahahah!

This is what we have now, and it's just cray cray! There are waaaayyyyy too many AoEs, so we desperately needed to nerf those disgusting Necros! I mean look at these AoEs being used in wvw?????

And players are so super happy that today we go back to the old state of beautiful balance for Necro!!! This will be an incredible day for all of us!!! I really can see the meta is going to be so amazingly different, and so much better!!! And don't worry Necros, after this change you all will have so many more great build options opening up as a result! All those useless weapons and traits and skills... will now be risen to meta status! I can totally feel it!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8ZSugpXJpY

[Swagger.1459]

Know what I just realized? I bet this change to Necros means that my Ranger will be wanted in zergs now! I can’t wait to try different builds, and I totally have a sweet melee ranger that has been waiting for this exact moment!

[Swadow.6213]

@Swagger.1459 said:Know what I just realized? I bet this change to Necros means that my Ranger will be wanted in zergs now! I can’t wait to try different builds, and I totally have a sweet melee ranger that has been waiting for this exact moment!

The nerfs will have the opposite effect actually. Less corrupt on a skill means more scourges are needed to counter the firebrand boonfarting

[Swagger.1459]

@Swadow.6213 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:Know what I just realized? I bet this change to Necros means that my Ranger will be wanted in zergs now! I can’t wait to try different builds, and I totally have a sweet melee ranger that has been waiting for this exact moment!

The nerfs will have the opposite effect actually. Less corrupt on a skill means more scourges are needed to counter the firebrand boonfarting

Nope! Move over Necro and make way for the rise of the Ranger greatsword swoopers of death! I'm gonna cut through zergs like butter! It's going to be glorious!

[DemonSeed.3528]

That's not butter! It be margarine!