Tome of Justice recharge on kill trait

[MMAI.5892]

ToJ is just too strong though. As others have mentioned the sheer AoE damage FB can pump out in ToJ would be massively OP if Renewed Justice refreshed pages while still in Tome. RN we can burn through a healthy swath of mobs generally in one tome rotation without maxing out possible condition damage through gear. Add in the boons we can proc with mantras and our damage would be pretty massive. Even without max CD gear I can dish out around 8K dps consistently in one ToJ rotation. With party members it's closer to 10-15K - depending on number of party members. (Maybe higher). I'm sure with max gear it'd be much, much higher.

The way it works now is a bit clunky, I agree, but it also forces us to make some decisions. "I've got 10 mobs, 3 are about to burn to death, do I stow tome and get a full refresh or do I do some fancy footwork, save my last three pages to finish off the next three and get my refresh from them?" Make it too passive and playing FB turns into 'burn everything until it's dead because I never have to worry about running out of pages.'

Got a bunch of mobs with a couple of vets/elites? Right now we have to manage our kills instead of just burning the trash mobs out of existence immediately because those easy kills will keep giving up ammunition to sustain damage in longer fights. No trash mobs around? We have to pay more attention to Quickfire and the other two tomes as we dance with - in my case - two veteran branded hydras, but I digress.

If we don't have to make some tradeoffs in managing the potential damage ToJ can do, then we'd also have to accepted some pretty hard nerfs to ToJ's damage output to compensate. Otherwise we'll make balth look like a chump noob as we set all of Tyria ablaze. Personally, I like the way it is now. If I want for anything with FB, and it's a small, probably personal want, is more incentive to use the other two tomes. But as I said, a small want.

[RabbitUp.8294]

@MMAI.5892 said:The way it works now is a bit clunky, I agree, but it also forces us to make some decisions. "I've got 10 mobs, 3 are about to burn to death, do I stow tome and get a full refresh or do I do some fancy footwork, save my last three pages to finish off the next three and get my refresh from them?" Make it too passive and playing FB turns into 'burn everything until it's dead because I never have to worry about running out of pages.'

How is that a decision? If you can get a reset from the first 3, why would you do "some fancy footwork"? There's no decision, drop the tome, get the reset and hit the next three with a fully-loaded tome. Then drop the tome right before those last ones are about to die, and leave the fight with a recharged Tome.

There is no decision, no tactical play or whatever. It's only about how good you are at dropping the tome before an enemy dies. If you do that well enough, then you already have unlimitd pages. Yes, you spend 0.5s each time you recast the tome, but you also get the benefits from your traits everytime when you do so.

I'm already spamming ToJ in open world, even if I have to be observant. The only speedbumb is what I said above, that there are a lot of mobs that don't give you the reset, especially in group events.

[Darknicrofia.2604]

@RabbitUp.8294 said:

@Darknicrofia.2604 said:unlimited pages would be the single most broken thing gw2 pve has ever seen.

like, I'm not sure if you guys are being dense on purpose about how much aoe damage tome of justice can actually dish out with just 3-4 page uses, refreshing all 8 pages per kill would completely invalidate any other open world pve class/build.

So, are you telling me that it's now kept in check because you have to spend 0.5s casting the tome every now and then?

It doesn't even work that well in open world, anyway, especially PoF maps, because there are tons of enemies that don't count as a kill. Group events in particular are especially bad at this, as well as boss adds.

And I'm not even saying that because I want unlimited pages, I'm just saying that if you know what you are doing, you already have unlimited pages. As for invalidating the other builds, are you kidding me, like there's an open world meta. Fresh Air tempests have permanent Overload Air, did you jump on that wagon, too?

ToJ already massively outdamages overload air and that's only with a 3-4 page ramp up time, unlimited page ramp up and you'd see 100k burn ticks on world bosses that spawn adds.

[RabbitUp.8294]

@Darknicrofia.2604 said:

@RabbitUp.8294 said:

@Darknicrofia.2604 said:unlimited pages would be the single most broken thing gw2 pve has ever seen.

like, I'm not sure if you guys are being dense on purpose about how much aoe damage tome of justice can actually dish out with just 3-4 page uses, refreshing all 8 pages per kill would completely invalidate any other open world pve class/build.

So, are you telling me that it's now kept in check because you have to spend 0.5s casting the tome every now and then?

It doesn't even work that well in open world, anyway, especially PoF maps, because there are tons of enemies that don't count as a kill. Group events in particular are especially bad at this, as well as boss adds.

And I'm not even saying that because I want unlimited pages, I'm just saying that if you know what you are doing, you already have unlimited pages. As for invalidating the other builds, are you kidding me, like there's an open world meta. Fresh Air tempests have permanent Overload Air, did you jump on that wagon, too?

ToJ already massively outdamages overload air and that's only with a 3-4 page ramp up time, unlimited page ramp up and you'd see 100k burn ticks on world bosses that spawn adds.

Burn stacks do expire, so you won't see that. If you could see that, you would already be seeing it. Like I've said multiple times, the difference the 0.5s cast time makes is complete negligible. Also, especially since you mentioned bosses with adds, as I said in the post you quoted, the vast majority of adds don't reset the tome, and so wouldn't reset the pages, either.

And it's pointless to talk about damage, because I'm sure neither of us have access to any ToJ-only or OA-only benchmarks. Do keep in mind that Overload Air has been nerfed 3 times since HoT launch. FA Tempest was a 2-button build that had huge cleave/tagging potential, and perma protection (buffed to 40% dmg reduction even) and 25-vuln as part of its rotation. It was one of the best open world builds. Did you see anybody care? No, because there's no open world meta.

[MMAI.5892]

@RabbitUp.8294 said:

So, are you telling me that it's now kept in check because you have to spend 0.5s casting the tome every now and then?

It doesn't even work that well in open world, anyway, especially PoF maps, because there are tons of enemies that don't count as a kill. Group events in particular are especially bad at this, as well as boss adds.

And I'm not even saying that because I want unlimited pages, I'm just saying that if you know what you are doing, you already have unlimited pages. As for invalidating the other builds, are you kidding me, like there's an open world meta. Fresh Air tempests have permanent Overload Air, did you jump on that wagon, too?

In theory yes, but I think for most people it's different in practice. Yes, in theory, I can stagger mob kills one at time and keep getting a refresh. But that's hugely inefficient and wastes our AOE output. In practice, you're going to be killing multiples which limits your possible recharges. Plus if you're in densely packed areas, you may not even have that option.

@RabbitUp.8294 said:How is that a decision? If you can get a reset from the first 3, why would you do "some fancy footwork"? There's no decision, drop the tome, get the reset and hit the next three with a fully-loaded tome. Then drop the tome right before those last ones are about to die, and leave the fight with a recharged Tome.

There is no decision, no tactical play or whatever. It's only about how good you are at dropping the tome before an enemy dies. If you do that well enough, then you already have unlimitd pages. Yes, you spend 0.5s each time you recast the tome, but you also get the benefits from your traits everytime when you do so.

I'm already spamming ToJ in open world, even if I have to be observant. The only speedbumb is what I said above, that there are a lot of mobs that don't give you the reset, especially in group events.

Because I still have another 4 mobs left maybe some of those are vets and elites. Maybe it's tactically more sound to focus on the bigger threats and pick off the trash as you need recharging. There could be any number of situations where you need to decide 'more power now or later'? And thus have to manage your refresh accordingly.

"It's only about how good you are at dropping the tome before an enemy dies." I think we'll disagree on this point and maybe this will be the thing around which we'll divide, but I see this as the definition of tactical play. "Do I press on and burn the rest of my pages, or do I need that refresh against the mobs I have left?" that's a tactical decision that not having to drop tome does negate. It also forces us to pay attention the enemy health to make those choices instead of just burning everything to dust because we're constantly getting refreshed pages as mobs keel over one at time. It would also negate the extra pages trait and the CD trait, freeing us up to opt for even more damage. We could take all the quickness traits, for example, allowing even more options to use AoJ/be a quickness bot as well. It's just too much with the damage output ToJ does right now.

[RabbitUp.8294]

@MMAI.5892 said:"It's only about how good you are at dropping the tome before an enemy dies." I think we'll disagree on this point and maybe this will be the thing around which we'll divide, but I see this as the definition of tactical play. "Do I press on and burn the rest of my pages, or do I need that refresh against the mobs I have left?" that's a tactical decision that not having to drop tome does negate.

Press on to do what? You are telling me there's a decision to be made between having 3-4 pages or having 8. There's no decision, you only lose 0.5s, even less with quickness. Dodging takes more time than that, and I don't think you treat dodging as a huge choice, either.

And keep in mind, the trait doesn't reset your cooldowns. After your rotation, you will spend a few seconds spamming 1 whether you have unlimited pages or not.

[MMAI.5892]

@RabbitUp.8294 said:

@MMAI.5892 said:"It's only about how good you are at dropping the tome before an enemy dies." I think we'll disagree on this point and maybe this will be the thing around which we'll divide, but I see this as the definition of tactical play. "Do I press on and burn the rest of my pages, or do I need that refresh against the mobs I have left?" that's a tactical decision that not having to drop tome does negate.

Press on to do what? You are telling me there's a decision to be made between having 3-4 pages or having 8. There's no decision, you only lose 0.5s, even less with quickness. Dodging takes more time than that, and I don't think you treat dodging as a huge choice, either.

And keep in mind, the trait doesn't reset your cooldowns. After your rotation, you will spend a few seconds spamming 1 whether you have unlimited pages or not.

No, I understand, but skill 1 is still a decent amount of damage on up to five targets. Maybe more so if we consider that FBs can get 100% burning duration without needing to take expertise. CD on igniting burst is only 4 seconds and the options you'd have open when deciding on traits would have less trades when it comes to tomes. Only Legendary Lore would have any real benefit to take, leaving us to opt for more quickness and damage, or more condition output. It'd just make us pretty OP in terms of what we could do with little downsides. I hated the tome mechanic at first and I do think it's clunky, but honestly, if we want greater ease with Tomes, then we also have to take some nerfing as well.

[Obtena.7952]

@RabbitUp.8294 said:Did you see anybody care? No, because there's no open world meta.

I see Anet cares because if they didn't, they wouldn't put all the effort into making open world content at that the challenge level of play it is ... and so should anyone else that cares about the health of the game.

That STILL doesn't make unlimited page Tomes a reasonable suggestion. I can't believe anyone would even suggest such a thing, where ever this idea came from.

[Vitali.5039]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@RabbitUp.8294 said:Did you see anybody care? No, because there's no open world meta.

I see Anet cares because if they didn't, they wouldn't put all the effort into making open world content at that the challenge level of play it is ... and so should anyone else that cares about the health of the game.

That STILL doesn't make unlimited page Tomes a reasonable suggestion. I can't believe anyone would even suggest such a thing, where ever this idea came from.

I agree.Frost Gun's episode teach us that even Open World balance cares.

[RabbitUp.8294]

So, again, you people scream OP with no arguments. I don't see any point in taking part in this anymore.

[Obtena.7952]

I don't think it's so much about OP as opposed to flaunting the obviously original design intent as well. Sometimes suggestions are obviously not inline with what Anet is trying to do. That's enough to make them bad suggestions.

On the other hand ... I don't think it's too unreasonable to imagine what applying a 6 second duration burn on a 1/2 second frequency looks like in PVE either ... and that's just if I want to be lazy and camp TOJ #1 WITHOUT Radiance, Virtues and FB traits to bolster that ... but obviously you think you need numbers to justify why that's probably a bad idea. /shrug

[RabbitUp.8294]

Don't get me wrong, I don't necessarily support the suggestion. I just don't see any difference between unlimited pages and what we have now. Sure, it significantly lowers the bar, so you can just spam tome skills without care, but from a balance standpoint, and assuming the guardian player knows how to time the resets properly, we are already at the point of unlimited pages, and I don't find 0.5s cast times every 4-5s to be a balancing factor. Actually casting the tome has certain advantages, like procing traits and on-swap sigils.

[Obtena.7952]

I think the difference is obvious ... camping Tomes and not camping them. One requires thoughtful timing and application of a limited resource. The other one requires that you can drool on the right keys.

[OJPhoenix.8703]

@Altair.8402 said:Am I the only one who's annoyed at how this interaction works? If you want to kill something and not want your F1 to go on CD, you have to manually drop out of it because the reset doesn't proc if you're actually in F1. It's just unneeded awkward skill juggling that doesn't contribute anything IMO.

I'd prefer it to be changed so that if you're in F1 and you kill something, either reset the CD so you can immediately swap out/in, or just recharge all your pages (and give you some quickness if you have that trait equipped).

Thoughts?

I must admit I really dislike having to stow the tome to prevent it from going on cooldown

I don't mind having to reactivate it, in fact that's definitely intended as the Swift Scholar trait gives Quickness when you equip or stow a Tome.

While I agree that refreshing pages is logical and would feel right - it would lose this interaction.

Renewed Justice should cause Tome of Justice to gain 100% recharge rate if you get a kill while you are using Tome of Justice.

[Mercurias.1826]

I sort of like it as is. There is a negligible amount of awareness of your need to trigger the recharge with a kill outside if tome to keep it from being boring. It’s more fun this way.

[ZyniX.3589]

@Obtena.7952 said:I think the difference is obvious ... camping Tomes and not camping them. One requires thoughtful timing and application of a limited resource. The other one requires that you can drool on the right keys.

You say thoughtful timing but in practice for me it's mindless tedium. How is it a limited resource when I just have to remember to cancel the tome before I kill anyone and get full pages to do it again?

[Obtena.7952]

@ZyniX.3589 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:I think the difference is obvious ... camping Tomes and not camping them. One requires thoughtful timing and application of a limited resource. The other one requires that you can drool on the right keys.

You say thoughtful timing but in practice for me it's mindless tedium. How is it a limited resource when I just have to remember to cancel the tomb before I kill anyone and get full pages to do it again?

SO you have a problem with the mindless tedium of timing skills ... would unlimited pages be more or less tedium?

The question here wasn't about tedium, it was about if VoJ recharge trait is not working well with ToJ. I think it does because it requires a more mindful gameplay. If anything it works BETTER than VoJ, which is just spamfood with the trait. maybe you don't like to have to think about your skills. I found this a pleasant surprise.

[Nowaki.2136]

it wouldnt be as a bad if actually EVERY kill granted you the reset, not only you need to cancel your tome early but you also need to pray for the mob to count as recharge or you'll pretty much waste the pages that you canceled.

[Azoqu.8917]

@Nowaki.2136 said:it wouldnt be as a bad if actually EVERY kill granted you the reset, not only you need to cancel your tome early but you also need to pray for the mob to count as recharge or you'll pretty much waste the pages that you canceled.

It wouldn't be Guild Wars 2 without there being inconsistencies. See dodges, blocks, reflects, invulns, on kill procs, chests per day being character or account bound, etc.

[Obtena.7952]

@Azoqu.8917 said:

@Nowaki.2136 said:it wouldnt be as a bad if actually EVERY kill granted you the reset, not only you need to cancel your tome early but you also need to pray for the mob to count as recharge or you'll pretty much waste the pages that you canceled.

It wouldn't be Guild Wars 2 without there being inconsistencies. See dodges, blocks, reflects, invulns, on kill procs, chests per day being character or account bound, etc.

There is nothing inconsistent here .. the Radiance Reset trait does exactly as it describes every time. it's the ToJ functions that is providing the confusion to players. The only problem here is that players are used to taking the trait for granted; not having to think when using it with VoJ. Add some timing requirement and people can't handle it.

[MithranArkanere.8957]

This happens because the skill begins to recharge when you leave the tome, not in the background.

This is likely like this because the tome doesn't have an expiration timer, or it is very long. You can sit on a tome for a very long time, if not permanently.

Since the recharge begins when you leave the tome, it doesn't matter if the tome recharges in the background because of the trait, it will start recharging again when you leave the tome.

Personally, I'd change the interaction with the tome to:

• If the tome is on cooldown, Renewed Justice recharges it on kill.
• If the tome is equipped, Renewed Justice gives pages back on kill.

This way the "spam Justice when killing waves of enemies" use of the trait works both when the tome is equipped and when it isn't.

[Aomine.5012]

The trait itself is already op when combine with firebrand because old virtues are not that strong compare to tome of justice, so resetting it doesn't matter that much.Tome of Justice is a complete different story, with a full package of skills that can dish out 30~40 burns in one bookYet you guys want it to be better huh.

If anything, it'd most likely get a nerf of not recharging tome at all in the future.

So try to keep yourself low key instead of asking for buff about an op feature that'd 99% be nerfed sooner or later.These greedy attitude will just draw attention from dev and get yourself the inevitable nerf alot sooner.