*spoiler* I'm a little confused

[xXMapcoXx.9614]

I'm just a tad bit confused about people praising this story when the ending is baffling. Jormag wants to ally with us but he spent the last 30 minutes sending his goons to murder you, not to mention killing almora and then comes up to you wanting to be buddy buddy? And us the player character were supposed to consider his offer? I mean that is some mental Gymnastics if ever I see any. I know you untimely rejection his offer after a very lengthy pause, but still. You can argue it was only after you stomped his minions into the ground he changes his tone, but it clear from how he addresses you that isn't the case. So anyone gonna address just how stupid it this is?

[Randulf.7614]

Jormag is all about temptation and trying to deceive, trick and twist your mind into succumbing to its will. Jormags approach at the end because they realise the threat of the Commander and is using more direct persuasion and mentioning Aurene since she will be our weakness in all of this. Also, Jormag did not send anything after us. In the instances, we chased down the goons. We went after the boss. Jormags attacks focused on the Vigil and getting hold of Jhavi for...reasons unclear.

There is also some big plot twist brewing that this will tie into.

I get what you are saying, but of all the myriad issues this episode has, I'm not really agreeing this is one. What Jormag is doing is in keeping with how Jormag has always done things. Dragons are manipulative and the best manipulators do not rely on a singular tactic

[Ayakaru.6583]

He doesn't want us to join him all buddy buddy.He wants to dominate. In essence, he's used the commander to draw in the Champion, so they can use the Champion to draw in Aurene.I mean, if he really wanted to seduce us, he could do a little better. but he doesn't seem to have any trouble seducing our lower ranks. Even Braham and Marjory fall victim to his whispers

[Linken.6345]

@Ayakaru.6583 said:He doesn't want us to join him all buddy buddy.He wants to dominate. In essence, he's used the commander to draw in the Champion, so they can use the Champion to draw in Aurene.I mean, if he really wanted to seduce us, he could do a little better. but he doesn't seem to have any trouble seducing our lower ranks. Even Braham and Marjory fall victim to his whispers

She and arent the commander and champion the same person?

[Donari.5237]

@Linken.6345 said:

@"Ayakaru.6583" said:He doesn't want us to join him all buddy buddy.He wants to dominate. In essence, he's used the commander to draw in the Champion, so they can use the Champion to draw in Aurene.I mean, if he really wanted to seduce us, he could do a little better. but he doesn't seem to have any trouble seducing our lower ranks. Even Braham and Marjory fall victim to his whispers

She and arent the commander and champion the same person?

I think the intent was "used the General (Almorra) to draw in the Champion." At least, that makes sense to me in this context.

As to "she," ANet has stated that Jormag is not any specific gender, they just have a human woman voice actor doing the voice.

[Hevoskuuri.3891]

I very much like the fact that for the first time in a long time, I actually have no clue whatsoever where the story is going.

So far it has been pretty predictable for the most part, with a few mild surprises thrown in every now and then. But Jormag being the dragon of deception and apparently a very skilled strategist, I have absolutely no idea whether it (she? he?) is genuinely wanting to ally with us for some reason or just simply trying to trick us into an easy trap. And how does Bangar fit into all this? Maybe Jormag doesn't even want him into its/his/her ranks, and wants to ally with us to stop him or something. It's a long shot and it's a whole lot of speculation, but I don't think Jormag is a straight-up bad guy like Zhaitan and Mordy were. There was a whole lot more to Kralk than there seemed to be at first glance, after all.

And why would it/he/she even bother trying to bond with us, when the simpler solution would be to throw several armies of Svanir and Icebrood and fallen Kodan and boneskinners and whatever at us? I think there's a legitimate reason for Jormag contacting us outside of just trying to bait us into an easy target.

As for Almorra, I think that twist of the story is far from over and done. The way it was sort of immediately dismissed with a shrug tells me there's much more to it, and we'll know more (why, how and whodunit?) as the story unveils itself in the coming episodes.

[Bast.7253]

@Hevoskuuri.3891 said:

And why would it/he/she even bother trying to bond with us, when the simpler solution would be to throw several armies of Svanir and Icebrood and fallen Kodan and boneskinners and whatever at us? I think there's a legitimate reason for Jormag contacting us outside of just trying to bait us into an easy target.

Well Kralk and the two others tried throwing force at the problem, and that didn't turn out so well for them.

[Hevoskuuri.3891]

@"cptaylor.2670" said:

@"Hevoskuuri.3891" said:

And why would it/he/she even bother trying to bond with us, when the simpler solution would be to throw several armies of Svanir and Icebrood and fallen Kodan and boneskinners and whatever at us? I think there's a legitimate reason for Jormag contacting us outside of just trying to bait us into an easy target.

Well Kralk and the two others tried throwing force at the problem, and that didn't turn out so well for them.

True, but the way I see it, Jormag is the smartest of the bunch. I think she (I'm just going to settle on that for simplicity) knows very well someone like the Commander isn't going to fall into her traps and will see right through her trickery and lies, so trying to lure us that way would be pointless. I think she has a legitimate concern, maybe the Deep Sea dragon, maybe Bangar, maybe something else entirely, that she wants to discuss with us.

And writing-wise, that would be so predictable, lazy and an outright cliche. "Come to the dark side, we have cookies... that's right, you can trust me... Ha! Gotcha!" I seriously doubt that's the way Anet is going with this. Their writing has gotten better and better since LS3, and I'm expecting some legitimate surprises and twists here.

[Bast.7253]

@Hevoskuuri.3891 said:

@"cptaylor.2670" said:

@Hevoskuuri.3891 said:

And why would it/he/she even bother trying to bond with us, when the simpler solution would be to throw several armies of Svanir and Icebrood and fallen Kodan and boneskinners and whatever at us? I think there's a legitimate reason for Jormag contacting us outside of just trying to bait us into an easy target.

Well Kralk and the two others tried throwing force at the problem, and that didn't turn out so well for them.

True, but the way I see it, Jormag is the smartest of the bunch. I think she (I'm just going to settle on that for simplicity) knows very well someone like the Commander isn't going to fall into her traps and will see right through her trickery and lies, so trying to lure us that way would be pointless. I think she has a legitimate concern, maybe the Deep Sea dragon, maybe Bangar, maybe something else entirely, that she wants to discuss with us.

And writing-wise, that would be

so

predictable, lazy and an outright cliche. "Come to the dark side, we have cookies... that's right, you can trust me... Ha! Gotcha!" I seriously doubt that's the way Anet is going with this. Their writing has gotten better and better since LS3, and I'm expecting some legitimate surprises and twists here.

But I mean, if there was something, why not just discuss it? She has her minion alone in a room with us giving this nice little speech and she's getting her beauty sleep beneath the ice somewhere, so why not just tell us what the supposed threat is then and there? Why drag it out? Because she wants us to witness it first hand and be more convinced? But as you say, we're smart enough to resist. So, what difference does dragging it out make?

I guess there's always the possibility that this isn't even Jormag, or that something is controlling Jormag somehow. Seems highly unlikely, but that could be an interesting twist. This entire time we think we're communicating with an elder dragon and then find out that there's something out there that's capable of controlling/twisting an elder dragon to their will for a change. Maybe whatever was possessing things in the Dwarven fractal, or some other ancient entity that's mortal or at least not on the same scale as one of The Six or an Elder Dragon, but something from the mists or something older from Tyria. Would sort of fit the Lovecraftian theme and make the current trajectory seem a little more obscure.

I don't know. I just don't think it will be Primordus, whatever this threat is. And I don't think it will be some random mob from the mists. I'm also not inclined to believe it's some "Mother" super elder dragon, though I'm not ruling it out. Would be interesting to at least learn more from Jormag, about how elder dragons came to be and such.

[thepenmonster.3621]

@"cptaylor.2670" said:

@Hevoskuuri.3891 said:

And why would it/he/she even bother trying to bond with us, when the simpler solution would be to throw several armies of Svanir and Icebrood and fallen Kodan and boneskinners and whatever at us? I think there's a legitimate reason for Jormag contacting us outside of just trying to bait us into an easy target.

Well Kralk and the two others tried throwing force at the problem, and that didn't turn out so well for them.

Yup. At this point the Commander is a force of nature on par with the Six. You come gunning for them, you're going to get stomped.

[Rubedo.8769]

Do we actually know that Jormags people killed Almorra? I think the NPC's assume it but from what was said when you find her, it sounds more like a Charr killed her, such as Bangar, who we know had issue with her before he ran off to the mountains. Also we know from the chase to Jhavi that Jormag wanted to "talk" to Almorra just like it did Jhavi, so I'm not 100% sold on Jormag being fully behind the death of Almorra yet.

[Aeon.4583]

@"cptaylor.2670" said:I guess there's always the possibility that this isn't even Jormag

=) I've been asking my in-game friends and guildmates for ages: What if DSD and Jormag are split personality dragon ( Ice and Water, pff same thing )? Considering the crazyness of new map, very well may be. Maybe because of it there is little info about DSD. Balthazar put Primordus and Jormag into downed state, but thing is Jormag went sleeping, maybe DSD personality isn't. But even if DSD ( who could be female ) and Jormag are two different dragons, doesn't mean DSD can't have certain degree of control over ice, and in fact Jormag itself while that one sleeping.

[Fueki.4753]

@Aeon.4583 said:But even if DSD ( who could be female ) and Jormag are two different dragons, doesn't mean DSD can't have certain degree of control over ice, and in fact Jormag itself while that one sleeping.

We don't even know if Bubbles' domains of influence are related to Water at all.As far as we know, Bubbles is only called Deep Sea Dragon, because Bubbles is located in the deep sea.

[Traveller.7496]

@"Ayakaru.6583" said:Even Braham and Marjory fall victim to his whispers

They are dumb, so that's no excuse. With Marjory, even the commander, who's seen so much shit already, is annoyed by her and shouts "It's just an illusion, woman!"

For random NPC's all Jormag has to say is "kill everyone" and they go "ok"

[Cronospere.8143]

I got the feeling of daubt.His constant talk of "let me help you" "rest" and instruction on turning back because there is death and enemies.It creates confusion. And they deliver it in a really good way.

[Danikat.8537]

@"xXMapcoXx.9614" said:I'm just a tad bit confused about people praising this story when the ending is baffling. Jormag wants to ally with us but he spent the last 30 minutes sending his goons to murder you, not to mention killing almora and then comes up to you wanting to be buddy buddy? And us the player character were supposed to consider his offer? I mean that is some mental Gymnastics if ever I see any. I know you untimely rejection his offer after a very lengthy pause, but still. You can argue it was only after you stomped his minions into the ground he changes his tone, but it clear from how he addresses you that isn't the case. So anyone gonna address just how stupid it this is?

I suspect your interpretation of Jormag's offer is quite different from what was intended. It's trying to recruit you in the same way it does the Sons of Svanir - you wouldn't be an equal partner but one of the dragon's minions. And just like the Svanir Jormag is trying to make you feel like you're weak and helpless and doomed to fail if you do anything except side with it by keeping you under attack and killing off your allies as long as you continue to resist. The only difference between you and any random norn the dragon recruits and corrupts is Jormag is also hoping to use you to get to Aurene.

It's kind of similar to Stockholm Syndrome - wearing you down so you believe you can't escape, can't fight back and the only option is to give in and side with the dragon.

@Randulf.7614 said:Jormags attacks focused on the Vigil and getting hold of Jhavi for...reasons unclear.

One possibility is that Jormag wants Jhavi as revenge for Jora rejecting Drakkar's temptation and killing Svanir, who was probably supposed to start recruiting more minions and working towards awakening Jormag in the same way the Great Destroyer was supposed to prepare for Primordius.

@Hevoskuuri.3891 said:It's a long shot and it's a whole lot of speculation, but I don't think Jormag is a straight-up bad guy like Zhaitan and Mordy were. There was a whole lot more to Kralk than there seemed to be at first glance, after all.

I'm not sure Zhaitan and Mordremoth were as straight-forward evil as they seemed either. But Zhaitan recruited minions by killing things (or finding dead bodies) and resurrecting them so he had absolutely no reason to do anything except kill us, and Mordremoth grew his own minions (then started cloning them from dead bodies after absorbing some of Zhaitan's magic) so he was only interested in the sylvari who should have been his minions already.

Also the dragons seem more inclined to respect strength (physical or magical) than anything else and at that point the player races hadn't presented any real threat to the dragons so we were probably beneath their notice. It was only after we killed Zhaitan that they began to take notice, and for Mordremoth that just meant making more of an effort to wipe out our armies before spreading beyond the jungle. After we killed two of them, in spite of Mordremoth wiping out most of the Pact forces, I suspect the remaining dragons decided they needed to change tactics.

@Fueki.4753 said:

@Aeon.4583 said:But even if DSD ( who could be female ) and Jormag are two different dragons, doesn't mean DSD can't have certain degree of control over ice, and in fact Jormag itself while that one sleeping.

We don't even know if Bubbles' domains of influence are related to Water at all.As far as we know, Bubbles is only called Deep Sea Dragon, because Bubbles is located in the deep sea.

That's a good point actually, especially since the dragons last rose something like 10,000 years ago and the world has changed a lot since then. Although, Mordremoth was under the jungle and Zhaitan was under a devastated nation with plenty of corpses remaining (in spite of a lot of them invading Kryta during GW1) - both ideal habitats for their abilities.

(I think it's less surprising with the others - Jormag is in the far north which is pretty much always going to be the coldest part of Tyria and Primordius is deep underground near the planet's core where it will always be hot, and Kralkatorrik didn't seem bound to any particular habitat.)

[Tanith.5264]

@thepenmonster.3621 said:

@"cptaylor.2670" said:

@Hevoskuuri.3891 said:

And why would it/he/she even bother trying to bond with us, when the simpler solution would be to throw several armies of Svanir and Icebrood and fallen Kodan and boneskinners and whatever at us? I think there's a legitimate reason for Jormag contacting us outside of just trying to bait us into an easy target.

Well Kralk and the two others tried throwing force at the problem, and that didn't turn out so well for them.

Yup. At this point the Commander is a force of nature on par with the Six. You come gunning for them, you're going to get stomped.

That's how I see it as well. Jormag has learned from the other dragons' failure to stop us, so instead of simply attacking he's trying to turn everyone against one another, sow the seeds of doubt, play upon fears...anything to weaken the psyche of his enemies. To my way of thinking he should have been the Elder Dragon of Mind, rather than H. R. Puffnstuff-on-acid over there in the jungle.

[Ashantara.8731]

@"xXMapcoXx.9614" said:Jormag wants to ally with us but he

she*

spent the last 30 minutes sending his goons to murder you, not to mention killing almora and then comes up to you wanting to be buddy buddy? And us the player character were supposed to consider his offer?

She's obviously trying to toy with us, and since she can manipulate minds, there is nothing she can't at least try. If it works remains the be seen.

I mean that is some mental Gymnastics if ever I see any.

In other fantasy games, we would describe this as some sort of "dragon magic". We will see whether the Commander will be able to maintain a clear head.

[AgentMoore.9453]

@Tanith.5264 said:he

@Ashantara.8731 said:sheThey

Jormag's been called nonbinary by devs, so they/them. Or it if you want to go the 'mindless force of nature' route.

As to the OP's confusion, things may not be what they seem in the new map and story. We think we know who's been talking in our heads, and we think we know who killed Almorra, but it's entirely possible that we are wrong and that things are about to get real weird.

Don't forget that Lazarus was a resurrected Mursaat until, suddenly, he turned out to actually be Balthazar. Things like that can happen again, and things that seem strange and confusing now may make sense as more is made clear.

[Randulf.7614]

@Ashantara.8731 said:

@"xXMapcoXx.9614" said:Jormag wants to ally with us but

he

she*

spent the last 30 minutes sending his goons to murder you, not to mention killing almora and then comes up to you wanting to be buddy buddy? And us the player character were supposed to consider his offer?

She's obviously trying to toy with us, and since she can manipulate minds, there is nothing she can't at least

try

. If it works remains the be seen.

I mean that is some mental Gymnastics if ever I see any.

In other fantasy games, we would describe this as some sort of "dragon magic". We will see whether the Commander will be able to maintain a clear head.

Jormag, like all Dragons is neither he or she as confirmed by the devs.

[Neo Mortem.3627]

@Randulf.7614 said:

@Ashantara.8731 said:

@"xXMapcoXx.9614" said:Jormag wants to ally with us but

he

she*

spent the last 30 minutes sending his goons to murder you, not to mention killing almora and then comes up to you wanting to be buddy buddy? And us the player character were supposed to consider his offer?

She's obviously trying to toy with us, and since she can manipulate minds, there is nothing she can't at least

try

. If it works remains the be seen.

I mean that is some mental Gymnastics if ever I see any.

In other fantasy games, we would describe this as some sort of "dragon magic". We will see whether the Commander will be able to maintain a clear head.

Jormag, like all Dragons is neither he or she as confirmed by the devs.

Incorrect. Isn't Vlast a male? Glint a female? Aurene a female? Kralkatorrik is a male. Of course, those were all biological, whereas Jormag seems to be the foot in the door for "gender identity" in terms of societal standards. Never before have we thought about how the Elder Dragons "identified", which is still a stupid concept to throw at dragons that have existed for centuries and dont give a damn about the world or its inhabitants, until that ludicrous magazine popped up where Gorrik asked about what Zhaitan and Mordremoth "identified" as BEFORE we killed them. Jormag has been the only Elder Dragon confirmed to fit the label of "non-binary."

[Randulf.7614]

@Neo Mortem.3627 said:

@Randulf.7614 said:

@Ashantara.8731 said:

@"xXMapcoXx.9614" said:Jormag wants to ally with us but

he

she*

spent the last 30 minutes sending his goons to murder you, not to mention killing almora and then comes up to you wanting to be buddy buddy? And us the player character were supposed to consider his offer?

She's obviously trying to toy with us, and since she can manipulate minds, there is nothing she can't at least

try

. If it works remains the be seen.

I mean that is some mental Gymnastics if ever I see any.

In other fantasy games, we would describe this as some sort of "dragon magic". We will see whether the Commander will be able to maintain a clear head.

Jormag, like all Dragons is neither he or she as confirmed by the devs.

Incorrect. Isn't Vlast a male? Glint a female? Aurene a female? Kralkatorrik is a male. Of course, those were all biological, whereas Jormag seems to be the foot in the door for "gender identity" in terms of societal standards. Never before have we thought about how the Elder Dragons "identified", which is still a stupid concept to throw at dragons that have existed for centuries and dont give a kitten about the world or its inhabitants, until that ludicrous magazine popped up where Gorrik asked about what Zhaitan and Mordremoth "identified" as BEFORE we killed them. Jormag has been the only Elder Dragon confirmed to fit the label of "non-binary."

The devs have confirmed all Elder Dragons are non binary. The Kralkatorrik/Glint/Aurene is unique but still the same situation. It is believed storytelling took over when it came to easy of addressing their genders or they identified as male/female for other reasons.

Zhaitan, Mord, Jormag are all non binary. The difference being they have been more clear about it with Jormag. I’m guessing because they are addressing certain things about the dragons this season

At some point I will post sources, but there was discussion about it just before the prologue in the lore forum, there were dev tweets and some other places they confirmed the above.

[magnusthorek.8027]

Every villain has a champion, someone that outstands among the others. And all champions eventually die in the hands of the Hero, so a new one must arise and Jormag whispers try to convince the Pact Commander that he/she should be that Champion and he (?) will use whatever resource at his (?) disposal.

Although the feeling I had with the story is that maybe Jormag is trying not trying to persuade ONLY the Pact Commander. Since the topic is flagged a spoiler alert, I could say that, perhaps, later on, the Pact Commander might even face Braham and, possibly, kill him (yes, pretty please ANet).

[Aeolus.3615]

@Donari.5237 said:

@Linken.6345 said:

@"Ayakaru.6583" said:He doesn't want us to join him all buddy buddy.He wants to dominate. In essence, he's used the commander to draw in the Champion, so they can use the Champion to draw in Aurene.I mean, if he really wanted to seduce us, he could do a little better. but he doesn't seem to have any trouble seducing our lower ranks. Even Braham and Marjory fall victim to his whispers

She and arent the commander and champion the same person?

I think the intent was "used the General (Almorra) to draw in the Champion." At least, that makes sense to me in this context.

As to "she," ANet has stated that Jormag is not any specific gender, they just have a human woman voice actor doing the voice.

Jormag voice at the end of this episode changes to a very depth one.

[Tanith.5264]

Gang.

I personally do not give a skritt's patootie about the "gender identity" nonsense where a video game character is concerned. Especially since, as Agent Moore very correctly pointed out, things may not be what they seem.

That said, Jormag's Svanir worshipers definitely have a "dominant male" vibe so calling him a "him" isn't a stretch. If the Anet dev team thinks I am mistaken in this, they're all welcome to hop a plane out here to Georgia, sit down with me on my front porch, and we'll have coffee and discuss it.

:)