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WvW rewards: why are they so lacking?


Rennie.6750

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I'm one of these players playing a bit of everything, but my single most played map is probably one of the WvW ones. When I compare the time spent in there vs what I get in PvE, I'm really wondering what's going on and what was the thought process leading to such awful rewards, so let's make a simple comparison of what I've experienced:

  • Exotic gear: Dungeons, 30 minutes playing 2-3 paths of a dungeon (2 if you really take your time to teach the noobies who joined your team, 3 if it's just blazing through it) to get a single exotic. WvW: 8h for a single track. The badge of honor vendor does not count as it's often lacking a ton of relevant WvW stats like dire and costs quite a bit of gold (WTH?). So to get my dire gear well I farmed CoE for maybe 4 days instead of getting my WvW gear from WvW. Don't get me wrong, I like dungeons, but it still feel awfully wrong to do things that way.

  • Gold. PvE: if you're farming for it with fractals, it's easy to make about 20g an hour, even with T1 fractals. Mats are abundant and so are trophies, especially if you open the loot boxes with fractal keys. After 3h of WvW, this is a good day if i'm walking away with 6-7g, and I'm not slacking at spawn, I'm killing quite a lot of players, capping things, getting ranks and loot bags. This is counting tier 6 participation rewards.

  • Ascended gear: Well that's simple, I got 2 useless rings from WvW this month, and 3 fully crafted armor and weapons from Tequatl chests, ie a 10 mins encounter I do every day because rewards are so ridiculously high it would be silly to pass. I also get countless rings from fractals and dailies. Where's the consistency?

  • Legendary gear. Raids: 4h a week, get your full set in 3 months. WvW: 4h a day, get your set in 6-8 months. I know it's not supposed to be given like candy but this is just adding insult to injuries at this point.

I'm not saying WvW should be the ultimate way to earn every possible reward in the game, but it should at least be good for something, be it crafting mats, ascended or gold. Currently it's 5 to 16 times slower than PvE. The difference is just too huge.

To avoid any potential toxicity, I'll just add that if you think that fighting people with a working, active brain is easier than fighting a script that is specifically made in order for you to win, you're probably wrong.

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yes but WvW players have decided to collectivly shut up recently since they are now 100x better than they were prior to pips and reward tracks. but yes the rate of rewards is still absolutely terrible. one would think the most unpredictable and challenging game mode would yield more rewards.

Inb4 pve scrub says WvW just runs around in a blob not fully understanding that your blob consistantly and endlessly runs into the two enemy blobs. this isnt a champion loot farm like you PVE'rs are used to WvW blobs are large scale conflict seeking blobs and only one side gets the loot when the fight turns hot.

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@Rangerdeity.5847 said:yes but WvW players have decided to collectivly shut up recently since they are now 100x better than they were prior to pips and reward tracks. but yes the rate of rewards is still absolutely terrible. one would think the most unpredictable and challenging game mode would yield more rewards.

Inb4 pve scrub says WvW just runs around in a blob not fully understanding that your blob consistantly and endlessly runs into the two enemy blobs. this isnt a champion loot farm like you PVE'rs are used to WvW blobs are large scale conflict seeking blobs and only one side gets the loot when the fight turns hot.

Maybe it was worse before. But then it's still not good enough, far from it. I made the math, if I spent all my WvW time chopping wood (so much skill, so much fun, right?) this summer I could probably afford one of the legendary weapons from the TP. Direct purchase, no crafting. Yet if I take a look at my bank tabs and currency wallet right now, I'm really, really far from it.

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Wvw has always been treated that way, it's main players are use to it. It's just about time and effort in getting rewards and apparently anet thinks that wvw players need to give more than other modes to earn those rewards. Pve is also the lifeblood of the game so obviously it needs to be the best area for rewards.

After 5 years the rewards you can earn went from 3 extra green bags a week to being able to access ascended gear with legendary stat swapping feature, not much else to complain about rewards these days as they are on par with the rest of the game finally, other than the heavily gated time to acquire but that's just a losing battle to discuss with anet. Wvw has also been given easier access to HoT items without needing to pve to get them, you don't even have to step in pve to get your elite specs.

These days I'd say the top priority in wvw is to try and fix is combat and balance, rewards are in a decent place finally.

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It's because of the "winning vs losing doesn't matter" mentality they have taken with the mode. They create unbalanced teams and persist a system that is unbalanced....and to compensate they decide to judge the rewards of the winner and loser as being fundamentally the same. Given that anyone and everyone is making the same level of loot from the mode...its natural that the overall highest output is lower than other modes.

You get full rewards just for showing up basically in this mode and doing anything that can be measured by the system. It is difficult to measure accomplishment in this mode, I can't lie about that, but the system they DO have is rather simple-minded because of the "winning vs losing doesn't matter" mentality stated above.

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@XenesisII.1540 said:Wvw has always been treated that way, it's main players are use to it. It's just about time and effort in getting rewards and apparently anet thinks that wvw players need to give more than other modes to earn those rewards. Pve is also the lifeblood of the game so obviously it needs to be the best area for rewards.

After 5 years the rewards you can earn went from 3 extra green bags a week to being able to access ascended gear with legendary stat swapping feature, not much else to complain about rewards these days as they are on par with the rest of the game finally, other than the heavily gated time to acquire but that's just a losing battle to discuss with anet. Wvw has also been given easier access to HoT items without needing to pve to get them, you don't even have to step in pve to get your elite specs.

These days I'd say the top priority in wvw is to try and fix is combat and balance, rewards are in a decent place finally.

my earlier point about WvW players having decided to shut up since they are no longer 1% of PvE rewards and are now a whopping 40% of PvE rewards now has an exhibit A

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@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:I find it easier and less effort to earn rewards playing WvW than running dungeons. Dungeons get boring after a while; WvW frequently surprises me.

i dont know about less effort but its a lot more fun than dungeons. WvW can be hell if the enemy team is actually evenly matched with you. (but the good kind of hell) you know 3 hour sieges and a mini holocaust under the barrage of cows. yet at the same time i need to kill a player for the same rewards PVE players for killing a veteran mob that sounds a little warped.

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You were very lucky to get that many ascended chests from Teq. That was one of my dailies and I probably got 3 ascended chests in the past half a year (and no teq chest).I think it's more that people don't know how to make gold than 'lacking rewards'. I was sitting on 20k gold and mostly only played WvW. Made it by selling stuff that was in demand and easy+cheap to make. (And yes, you can get all that stuff even in WvW).

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@Cerby.1069 said:You get full rewards just for showing up basically in this mode and doing anything that can be measured by the system. It is difficult to measure accomplishment in this mode, I can't lie about that, but the system they DO have is rather simple-minded because of the "winning vs losing doesn't matter" mentality stated above.

Isn't it kind of the same with every reward in any pve open world activity? In metas, you show up, you follow the commander mindlessly, do some damage and get rewards (better than wvw). Or world bosses, where it's even easier. So following this logic, why should the wvw rewards be worse?

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@MrRay.3027 said:

@Cerby.1069 said:You get full rewards just for showing up basically in this mode and doing anything that can be measured by the system. It is difficult to measure accomplishment in this mode, I can't lie about that, but the system they DO have is rather simple-minded because of the "winning vs losing doesn't matter" mentality stated above.

Isn't it kind of the same with every reward in any pve open world activity? In metas, you show up, you follow the commander mindlessly, do some damage and get rewards (better than wvw). Or world bosses, where it's even easier. So following this logic, why should the wvw rewards be worse?

Because PvE players are strictly worse than the AI and thus think that defeating the AI is harder than defeating other players.

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The reward system is poor overall. I'm not talking about gold, which you can farm as mentioned in said Fractals ez. I'm talking about drops. Mostly you get scraps. Compare this game to many other games (a fair comparison can be made) - many, if not most, are rewarding and you can truly feel like you got something in exchange of your time.

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@Rangerdeity.5847 said:

@MrRay.3027 said:

@Cerby.1069 said:You get full rewards just for showing up basically in this mode and doing anything that can be measured by the system. It is difficult to measure accomplishment in this mode, I can't lie about that, but the system they DO have is rather simple-minded because of the "winning vs losing doesn't matter" mentality stated above.

Isn't it kind of the same with every reward in any pve open world activity? In metas, you show up, you follow the commander mindlessly, do some damage and get rewards (better than wvw). Or world bosses, where it's even easier. So following this logic, why should the wvw rewards be worse?

Because PvE players are strictly worse than the AI and thus think that defeating the AI is harder than defeating other players.

I'm not talking about if they're good or not. And I don't want to start a pve vs wvw debate either. I'm strictly talking about the activities: wvw vs metas/world bosses. At a fundamental level, they're the same: players grouping up to defeat/conquer something. There's no reason the rewards are so subpar to the other two game mods where you can just show up. I think I'm missing something. If somebody can tell what that is.

On a side note, thinking about this made me realise that people that join wvw just to farm pips and not contribute to the activity are just bad at farming, in general.

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@MrRay.3027 said:I'm not talking about if they're good or not. And I don't want to start a pve vs wvw debate either. I'm strictly talking about the activities: wvw vs metas/world bosses. At a fundamental level, they're the same: players grouping up to defeat/conquer something. There's no reason the rewards are so subpar to the other two game mods where you can just show up. I think I'm missing something. If somebody can tell what that is.

On a side note, thinking about this made me realise that people that join wvw just to farm pips and not contribute to the activity are just bad at farming, in general.It always depends, I guess. I was mainly a roamer, so I naturally got less rewards than those running with the zerg. If it went well for them they could get around the same loot as usual PvE players are making from a PvE meta map (especially HoT, minus the silverwastes which might be the most rewarding map of them all). With the difference that a PvE meta map usually has got a Boss finale which WvW doesn't have. So you get a guaranteed x yellow items out of the final chest. Or an exotic which in Teq's case is either an item or a rune or a spoon. So yes, WvW when you are running with a zerg, when your side is winning and and and is very rewarding. For the rest not so much. I never had the impression I weren't rewarded but I've heard the argument from several people, that other games feel more rewarding. A sentiment I can't really understand and don't know what should be changed so they would feel properly rewarded. Loot tombolas like in WoW?On your sidenote: They only want the pips.

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There's a rewards threshold, especially in any PvP game mode, where certain players think of a way to get the rewards by circumventing the original intent of the game mode. It's happened in the past to EotM. It's happened in WvW with kill trading in OS.

The rewards for PvE have to be higher than in WvW because you need to compensate PvE for the boredom of killing Foozle for the 69,105th time to get the unique item everybody else has.

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@Nuzt.7894 said:I wouldn't say no to better rewards but tbh I would rather see resources spent in more important areas in WvW.

Except that you won't get much dev attention without higher player count. I mean what did we get for PoF? A single reward track, and not a good one.

@Cerby.1069 said:It's because of the "winning vs losing doesn't matter" mentality they have taken with the mode. They create unbalanced teams and persist a system that is unbalanced....and to compensate they decide to judge the rewards of the winner and loser as being fundamentally the same. Given that anyone and everyone is making the same level of loot from the mode...its natural that the overall highest output is lower than other modes.

You get full rewards just for showing up basically in this mode and doing anything that can be measured by the system. It is difficult to measure accomplishment in this mode, I can't lie about that, but the system they DO have is rather simple-minded because of the "winning vs losing doesn't matter" mentality stated above.

There's no imbalance. In PvE you get credit for tagging bosses and laying as a carpet on the ground for the rest of the fight. In WvW if you're not able to put up a fight you're not going to get anything at all, not even supposedly "easy" karma by capturing objectives, because the enemy team is going to look for you to loot your corpse. Of course if you're not able to achieve anything you can keep dreaming of seeing participation go up too.

@Inoki.6048 said:The reward system is poor overall. I'm not talking about gold, which you can farm as mentioned in said Fractals ez. I'm talking about drops. Mostly you get scraps. Compare this game to many other games (a fair comparison can be made) - many, if not most, are rewarding and you can truly feel like you got something in exchange of your time.

Yes. It's really infuriating to see that you get so many ascendant recipes and gear from facerolling T1 fractals and nearly nothing at all from the raid equivalent of PvP.

@Jana.6831 said:

@MrRay.3027 said:I'm not talking about if they're good or not. And I don't want to start a pve vs wvw debate either. I'm strictly talking about the activities: wvw vs metas/world bosses. At a fundamental level, they're the same: players grouping up to defeat/conquer something. There's no reason the rewards are so subpar to the other two game mods where you can just show up. I think I'm missing something. If somebody can tell what that is.

On a side note, thinking about this made me realise that people that join wvw just to farm pips and not contribute to the activity are just bad at farming, in general.It always depends, I guess. I was mainly a roamer, so I naturally got less rewards than those running with the zerg. If it went well for them they could get around the same loot as usual PvE players are making from a PvE meta map (especially HoT, minus the silverwastes which might be the most rewarding map of them all). With the difference that a PvE meta map usually has got a Boss finale which WvW doesn't have. So you get a guaranteed x yellow items out of the final chest. Or an exotic which in Teq's case is either an item or a rune or a spoon. So yes, WvW when you are running with a zerg, when your side is winning and and and is very rewarding. For the rest not so much. I never had the impression I weren't rewarded but I've heard the argument from several people, that other games feel more rewarding. A sentiment I can't really understand and don't know what should be changed so they would feel properly rewarded. Loot tombolas like in WoW?On your sidenote: They only want the pips.

The problem is, I do join zergs, I get kills, and even if you spend an entire evening completely demolishing the enemy train, you don't have much to show for it after the fight. Mostly worthless t5 mats like mithril or silk from salvaging the blue junk you get, and a couple of ectos if the salvage gods aren't trolling you. As a firebrand it's really trivial to tag 60% or more of the enemy train, and all I get for it is a worthless currency that has no desirable long-term sink (badges of honor) and some worthless junk. Mostly 16 copper trophies though. Where are the T6 mats? Where's the gold? Where are the currency sinks for T6 mats?

@VaaCrow.3076 said:I don't play WvW for rewards, i play it to have fun in wvw. Maybe you should reconsider playing if all you care about is getting useless stuff filling your bags.

I want to address that too. Character progression is part of the fun for a lot of us. If you do not like rewards, there's a metric ton of free to play asian MMOs waiting for you. Because that's what WvW feels to me in terms of rewards right now. I do enjoy the game mode a lot, that's why I spend so much time in it, but I don't like how I'm treated as a thid-class citizen for playing that.

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@Rennie.6750 said:

@VaaCrow.3076 said:I don't play WvW for rewards, i play it to have fun in wvw. Maybe you should reconsider playing if all you care about is getting useless stuff filling your bags.

I want to address that too. Character progression is part of the fun for a lot of us. If you do not like rewards, there's a metric ton of free to play asian MMOs waiting for you. Because that's what WvW feels to me in terms of rewards right now. I do enjoy the game mode a lot, that's why I spend so much time in it, but I don't like how I'm treated as a thid-class citizen for playing that.What kind of argument is that? =)"I like the game as it is" "GO AND PLAY SOME OTHER GAME IF YOU LIKE THIS ONE!!" umm, ok.

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@Rennie.6750 said:I'm one of these players playing a bit of everything, but my single most played map is probably one of the WvW ones. When I compare the time spent in there vs what I get in PvE, I'm really wondering what's going on and what was the thought process leading to such awful rewards, so let's make a simple comparison of what I've experienced:

  • Exotic gear: Dungeons, 30 minutes playing 2-3 paths of a dungeon (2 if you really take your time to teach the noobies who joined your team, 3 if it's just blazing through it) to get a single exotic. WvW: 8h for a single track. The badge of honor vendor does not count as it's often lacking a ton of relevant WvW stats like dire and costs quite a bit of gold (WTH?). So to get my dire gear well I farmed CoE for maybe 4 days instead of getting my WvW gear from WvW. Don't get me wrong, I like dungeons, but it still feel awfully wrong to do things that way.

There are NPCs on each spawn point that sell exotic armor and weapons. Dire gear is dirt cheap in the trading post. Nobody plays dungeons.

  • Gold. PvE: if you're farming for it with fractals, it's easy to make about 20g an hour, even with T1 fractals. Mats are abundant and so are trophies, especially if you open the loot boxes with fractal keys. After 3h of WvW, this is a good day if i'm walking away with 6-7g, and I'm not slacking at spawn, I'm killing quite a lot of players, capping things, getting ranks and loot bags. This is counting tier 6 participation rewards.

Fractals require an investment to make money. You're not making 20 gold in an hour of T1 fractals. Daily T4s take 30-60 minutes and usually only give 6-10 gold depending on RNG, and can only be completed once per day.

  • Ascended gear: Well that's simple, I got 2 useless rings from WvW this month, and 3 fully crafted armor and weapons from Tequatl chests, ie a 10 mins encounter I do every day because rewards are so ridiculously high it would be silly to pass. I also get countless rings from fractals and dailies. Where's the consistency?

Teq takes 15 minutes, 20 if you want to secure a good map. I've gotten ascended chests from teq 3 times in maybe 300 kills. I've had similar success from rank up chests and rewards tracks in wvw.

  • Legendary gear. Raids: 4h a week, get your full set in 3 months. WvW: 4h a day, get your set in 6-8 months. I know it's not supposed to be given like candy but this is just adding insult to injuries at this point.

You don't have to heard cats with 10 people in squad in wvw. You can do it at your own pace. There's value in freedom.

I'm not saying WvW should be the ultimate way to earn every possible reward in the game, but it should at least be good for something, be it crafting mats, ascended or gold. Currently it's 5 to 16 times slower than PvE. The difference is just too huge.

Unless you want to farm the silverwastes or cursed shore, there is no good place to farm crafting materials. Ascended drops are uniform in wvw, spvp, and world bosses with the only place to farm those being T4 fractals at a rate of maybe 1 per week, and if you want gold park your alts on a flax patch.

To avoid any potential toxicity, I'll just add that if you think that fighting people with a working, active brain is easier than fighting a script that is specifically made in order for you to win, you're probably wrong.

Who said it was easy?

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@Jana.6831 said:

@Rennie.6750 said:

@VaaCrow.3076 said:I don't play WvW for rewards, i play it to have fun in wvw. Maybe you should reconsider playing if all you care about is getting useless stuff filling your bags.

I want to address that too. Character progression is part of the fun for a lot of us. If you do not like rewards, there's a metric ton of free to play asian MMOs waiting for you. Because that's what WvW feels to me in terms of rewards right now. I do enjoy the game mode a lot, that's why I spend so much time in it, but I don't like how I'm treated as a thid-class citizen for playing that.What kind of argument is that? =)"I like the game as it is" "GO AND PLAY SOME OTHER GAME IF YOU LIKE THIS ONE!!" umm, ok.

No, that was just putting things into perspective, if I mentioned the relative privation fallacy, nobody would know what it means.

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@Hesacon.8735 said:Fractals require an investment to make money. You're not making 20 gold in an hour of T1 fractals. Daily T4s take 30-60 minutes and usually only give 6-10 gold depending on RNG, and can only be completed once per day.

Yes you do. Spam fractal 10 for an hour, open the fractal loot boxes with the cheap keys, sell everything you get. The investment for doing fractals? lol. What's that? Agony is a minimal investment, and there's no requirements for T1.

Also the exotic gear sold in WvW costs gold (and not a symbolic amount of it), that's really ridiculous.

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