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The current state of Condi Reaper


trixantea.1230

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I didn't benchmark PvE dps for Condi Reaper but it is easy to notice that this build isn't as good as it used to be in before Deathly Chill nerf and that it is now behind power reaper in PvP/WvW.

If this trait was the reason to kill condi reaper build, how could Anet improve this build to bring it back to life for the sake of build variety?

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Its not just the deathly chill nerf its also other things like the nerfs in the skills reaper 5 and 4 and how they combo'ed lesser whirl projectiles etc.Overall they wanted reaper to be a power player that said.

Condi reaper is ideally how the other condi builds on other professions should be in terms of ramp speed the only differences is reaper lacks the sustain those builds have and those other builds ramp conditions faster and their burst reach much higher potentials. Application is also more constant.

One of my friends managed to get a 25k condi reaper benchmark the other week but i was not payting too much attention to his build or his rotation i should have been. Then again it would only be that high under perfect raid situations which wont be any time outside of raids XD.

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I never liked the way condi reaper worked; needing chill fields and whirl finishers to just stack bleed (the weakest dps condi) worked well in a vacuum, but fields are EASILY overridden in PvE. I must say I personally agree with the power direction reaper has taken. When its condi build was the top dps build for reaper I always found that counter intuitive to the concept of the spec. But I think the core problem of condi reaper/scourge/necro is...well the core. Our main condi weapon is slow both in casting and in condi ramping. We have no true melee condi weapon, with greatsword being a gimmicky "condi" melee weapon with Chilling Darkness + Deathly Chill combo. Most condi "bursts" come from the elite specs but all variants of necro have had their condi burst potential (laughable as they were) neutered because condi builds are meant to ramp condis slowly (but condi mirage/firebrand/weaver are still a thing).

How to fix current reaper traitline to allow for condi damage? Honestly? I don't know. ICD reductions on Chilling Nova as Dadnir suggest, more bleed stacks on Deathly chill, or even better, instead of bleed use poison and have some synergy with Death Magic, re-increase duration of poison on Soul Spiral, add an effect to Deathly Chill that makes chill fields tick for damage/double finishers though I do hate the dependency on chill fields...Honestly, I doubt any of these suggestions would fix condi reaper.

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@"Methuselah.4376" said:How to fix current reaper traitline to allow for condi damage? Honestly? I don't know. ICD reductions on Chilling Nova as Dadnir suggest, more bleed stacks on Deathly chill, or even better, instead of bleed use poison and have some synergy with Death Magic, re-increase duration of poison on Soul Spiral, add an effect to Deathly Chill that makes chill fields tick for damage/double finishers though I do hate the dependency on chill fields...Honestly, I doubt any of these suggestions would fix condi reaper.

Well, technically, just the change on chilling nova increase c-reaper dps by 600-700 damage per seconds.

Blood magic's Mark of evasion could also see it's ICD reduced to 4 seconds in PvE. Just like chilling nova it would increase theoretical PvE c-dps by 600-700 dps.

You could also reduce chilling darkness ICD to 1 or 2 seconds in PvE only (1 second benefiting well of darkness while 2 seconds is just fine for nightfall), it wouldn't be much either but it would effectively increase c-reaper dps.

They could change chill of death to add a 0.5s chill proc on use for weapon skills that corrupt boons on foes instead of it's current proc. They can even make the trait affect weakening shroud and spiteful spirit.

Death nova could summon it's jagged horror every 3 seconds while you are in shroud (with the first on entering shroud) instead of summoning them on kill. This might benefit more core necromancer, thought. (The issue here is more that it's a "mechanism change" and as such it would be carried to all gamemodes, possibly creating some complains about "cancer reaper" in PvP/WvW)

A good way to reconcile reaper with fields could be to add to shiver of death a 1/4s of chill onto successfull offensive combo finisher. It would be minute and mainly impact projectile/whirl finishers but it would effectively relieve c-reaper from the loss of comboing into fields that aren't ice fields. (The issue here is more that it's a "mechanism change" and as such it would be carried to all gamemodes, possibly creating some complains about "cancer reaper" in PvP/WvW)

Truly, increasing the necromancer's condi dps in PvE isn't that difficult.

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Currently, I'm more worried that they are going to nerf power reaper because ANET dev said they wanted to curb back boon spam, and Reaper is self-sufficient in getting might gen and they have quickness accessible. This would hurt PVE quite a bit.

Imagine if reaper lost its quickness being sluggish again and most of its might gen, the DPS loss would be catastrophic in PvE and the loss in SPVP would be massive and felt.

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@Axl.8924 said:Currently, I'm more worried that they are going to nerf power reaper because ANET dev said they wanted to curb back boon spam, and Reaper is self-sufficient in getting might gen and they have quickness accessible. This would hurt PVE quite a bit.

Imagine if reaper lost its quickness being sluggish again and most of its might gen, the DPS loss would be catastrophic in PvE and the loss in SPVP would be massive and felt.

A bit off topic but a note on your concernsThis is mostly focused on pvp and wvw not pveThat said it will kill reaper or necro a good bit if they nerf the one boon its good at self generating and its not particularly quick about generating it Still not nearly as good as rev or warrior in terms of the rate of might gain till a target is under 50% and you can hit them due to siphoned power.

If quickness is lost from RO necromancer becomes a pretty dead profession in pvp and wvw. Attack speed of 2015 cant compete with the damage and mobility of 2019 thats why people dont use blighters boon right now. ITs dependent on your ability to attack to make the most of its effectiveness.

In pve if they remove the quickness from RO reaper would only be good with a boon grouped with it and if your boon dies or is not good at booning it becomes trash as far as raids go.Overall though i wouldnt worry about reaper in pve too much most of the changes they want to do in terms of nerfs are being considered for pvp and wvw only for the most part that i can tell.

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@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Axl.8924 said:Currently, I'm more worried that they are going to nerf power reaper because ANET dev said they wanted to curb back boon spam, and Reaper is self-sufficient in getting might gen and they have quickness accessible. This would hurt PVE quite a bit.

Imagine if reaper lost its quickness being sluggish again and most of its might gen, the DPS loss would be catastrophic in PvE and the loss in SPVP would be massive and felt.

A bit off topic but a note on your concernsThis is mostly focused on pvp and wvw not pveThat said it will kill reaper or necro a good bit if they nerf the one boon its good at self generating and its not particularly quick about generating it Still not nearly as good as rev or warrior in terms of the rate of might gain till a target is under 50% and you can hit them due to siphoned power.

If quickness is lost from RO necromancer becomes a pretty dead profession in pvp and wvw. Attack speed of 2015 cant compete with the damage and mobility of 2019 thats why people dont use blighters boon right now. ITs dependent on your ability to attack to make the most of its effectiveness.

In pve if they remove the quickness from RO reaper would only be good with a boon grouped with it and if your boon dies or is not good at booning it becomes trash as far as raids go.Overall though i wouldnt worry about reaper in pve too much most of the changes they want to do in terms of nerfs are being considered for pvp and wvw only for the most part that i can tell.

Lets not forget what ANET did to Scourge. The nerf to scourge recently hit them very very hard in PVE and SPVP because of mechanical nerfs.

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@"ZDragon.3046" said:Overall though i wouldnt worry about reaper in pve too much most of the changes they want to do in terms of nerfs are being considered for pvp and wvw only for the most part that i can tell.

It's especially for this reason that you should worry for reaper in PvE. If ANet suddenly decide that in order to tune down boons on the necromancer for PvP/WvW reason, a mechanic change is needed, then it will impact PvE.

That said, having the necromancer's solo dps less reliant on the ability to "self-might" could potentially result in a positive outcome in group content. For example:

  • replacing reaper's might might generation by a flat and reliable increase in power while in shroud (or not) would objectively be a flat nerf from a solo'er point of view, while it could effectively increase the reaper's dps in an organized group.
  • The same goes for siphoned power which could give (as an example) a 200 power buff for a few seconds after the use of a boon corrupting skill.
  • As for reaper onslaught quickness, if I were ANet and wanted to limit the ability to self-boon, I'd just change the trait to grant quickness (4 - 5s) on entering shroud.

The real issue that I see with limiting self-might generation for the reaper is that blighter boon would become totally wasted.

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@Dadnir.5038 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:Overall though i wouldnt worry about reaper in pve too much most of the changes they want to do in terms of nerfs are being considered for pvp and wvw only for the most part that i can tell.

It's especially for this reason that you should worry for reaper in PvE. If ANet suddenly decide that in order to tune down boons on the necromancer for PvP/WvW reason, a mechanic change is needed, then it will impact PvE.

IT will not as the teams are now split pvp and wvw balance no longer has ties to pve going forward. Did you miss this announcement?Only in super niche cases will a design change effect both modes. Changes like that are more so likely zero'ed in on scourge shades for example.

Late editWhy not just solve reapers attack speed problem all together and speed up the base shroud kit so its not locked into RO all the time in general and be gone with the quickness from RO all together.Base attack speeds by default 25% fasterRO addtional 10% bonus for a total of 35 if you run it

Still not quickness level fast, not painfully slow to a solo player either & and opens up the other 2 traits a bit more in all game modes , more beneficial when playing with groups who provide quickness.

My vote for RO is to leave the quickness as is or fix the base problem all together not just toning the quickness down and leaving base sroud ideally broken due to its attack speed which effectively renders the other 2 trait options heavily impaired in competitive modes.

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@Axl.8924 said:

@Axl.8924 said:Currently, I'm more worried that they are going to nerf power reaper because ANET dev said they wanted to curb back boon spam, and Reaper is self-sufficient in getting might gen and they have quickness accessible. This would hurt PVE quite a bit.

Imagine if reaper lost its quickness being sluggish again and most of its might gen, the DPS loss would be catastrophic in PvE and the loss in SPVP would be massive and felt.

A bit off topic but a note on your concernsThis is mostly focused on pvp and wvw not pveThat said it will kill reaper or necro a good bit if they nerf the one boon its good at self generating and its not particularly quick about generating it Still not nearly as good as rev or warrior in terms of the rate of might gain till a target is under 50% and you can hit them due to siphoned power.

If quickness is lost from RO necromancer becomes a pretty dead profession in pvp and wvw. Attack speed of 2015 cant compete with the damage and mobility of 2019 thats why people dont use blighters boon right now. ITs dependent on your ability to attack to make the most of its effectiveness.

In pve if they remove the quickness from RO reaper would only be good with a boon grouped with it and if your boon dies or is not good at booning it becomes trash as far as raids go.Overall though i wouldnt worry about reaper in pve too much most of the changes they want to do in terms of nerfs are being considered for pvp and wvw only for the most part that i can tell.

Lets not forget what ANET did to Scourge. The nerf to scourge recently hit them very very hard in PVE and SPVP because of mechanical nerfs.

They made an announcement that going forward pvp and wvw balance will no longer be tied to pvethis was likely finally decided to to the complaints that followed the changes to scourge.

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Ha, bit too soon for this post OP. Recently they announced plans for necro changes (the part of the fall traits removal). Our fall trait will be changed to apply torment on applying control effect. Wiki states that "control effects" contain both hard and soft cc. If we get to apply torment stack each time we chill or cripple (along with fears ofc), then condi reaper might see pretty nice buff to his output.

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@"Dadnir.5038"

On golem, condi reaper is somewhere between 27k and 29k, just a tiny bit below scourge. Which is probably why ANet won't "improve" it.

I laughed between a real fight and hitting a static pole there's a huge difference.Why do we take condi classes in pve?For bosses who move.The condi classes very often set combo zones.As a reaper, our burst = frost combo area + Soul Spiral shroud .But in group we don't choose the combo zone in which we will make our combo so your burst in conditions in a real fight your burst is zero.In pvp, the problem is different in reaper you mainly put 4 conditions, which are vulnerability, chill, bleeding and burning.Most of the clean or stamping skills remove 3 alterations, basically with 1 weapon switch I cancel all your burst and you are in the body body for me to kill you.A condition class must either have enough means to survive and go hand-to-hand or provide remote kite and disengagement means.The necro has neither really good (compared to other classes).

Besides, you're talking about the scourge, the same thing since the shades were overhauled.For a golem your shades you put them down, the golem stays in.In real combat the mobs move either you don't put down your shades you lose dps and stats.If you put down your shades you take the risk of running out of shades and casting your spells F2,3,4,5 without it affecting the boss.Either way, you lose dps.

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@"ZeftheWicked.3076" said:Ha, bit too soon for this post OP. Recently they announced plans for necro changes (the part of the fall traits removal). Our fall trait will be changed to apply torment on applying control effect. Wiki states that "control effects" contain both hard and soft cc. If we get to apply torment stack each time we chill or cripple (along with fears ofc), then condi reaper might see pretty nice buff to his output.

If this is true, and torment is applied even on cripple, then scourge might be a viable condi class again lol

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@ZDragon.3046 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:Overall though i wouldnt worry about reaper in pve too much most of the changes they want to do in terms of nerfs are being considered for pvp and wvw only for the most part that i can tell.

It's especially for this reason that you should worry for reaper in PvE. If ANet suddenly decide that in order to tune down boons on the necromancer for PvP/WvW reason, a mechanic change is needed, then it will impact PvE.

IT will not as the teams are now split pvp and wvw balance no longer has ties to pve going forward. Did you miss this announcement?Only in super niche cases will a design change effect both modes. Changes like that are more so likely zero'ed in on scourge shades for example.

I didn't miss the announcement and I'm pretty clear that this announcement didn't say that they would consider mechanic split between gamemodes despite gamemmodes having different balancing team. It's safe to consider than anything that's not "number" tweeks will affect all gamemodes even if there is different balance team.

The decision to touch revive traits and fall traits affect all gamemodes, it seem some "super niche" cases are already incoming. I'd also say that this year of balance was full of "super niche" case.

@Ragi.7291 said:@Dadnir.5038

On golem, condi reaper is somewhere between 27k and 29k, just a tiny bit below scourge. Which is probably why ANet won't "improve" it.

I laughed between a real fight and hitting a static pole there's a huge difference.

Laugh all you want, PvE benchmarks are calculated based on golem performance since the raid training instance release. Because player seeks the most effective way to deal damage and "good" players in experienced group know how to reduce the loss of dps to the minimum (often through a good knowledge of the encounters mechanisms allowing them to control and predict the fight).

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@"Dadnir.5038 "So you think that in the current meta, with the reaper condition you will be able to proc your ice combo?with renegades, FBs, chronos, condi soulbeast, tempest, ...Seriously no, you would have told me that 3 years ago with the reaper condi + druide team I would have told you of course.

Otherwise for the pve, it would be enough that if you place a combo zone, your combo zone would be a priority for all your skills as long as it is active.It would fix all the condi dps, and healer them who would healer with combo heal and dispell lights more often.Some of your ideas are nice for up reaper and necro a little bit.

After that if you want to talk about balancing, does the game have to be balanced for the 0.001% of the players or the other side?Of course some build must be nerf such as the daredevil and condi thief lately in pvp, we were.Or build of cellofrag in a tempest, which totally ignores conditions damages in Wvw.After taking into account stat for the pve on sites for the necro that aren't updated since April 2019 such as SC, discretize, ... because it isn't longer meta.

"good" players in experienced group know how to reduce the loss of dps to the minimum (often through a good knowledge of the encounters mechanisms allowing them to control and predict the fight).totally agree but you need the composition + other very good player to optimize on the tiny number of players who do the raid.This further limits the number of target persons.

@Obtena.7952

The question isn't how they could fix it ... it's WHY they should fix it.isn't it enough to make the game more diversified?Maybe I'm too idealistic ^^

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@Axl.8924 said:Currently, I'm more worried that they are going to nerf power reaper because ANET dev said they wanted to curb back boon spam, and Reaper is self-sufficient in getting might gen and they have quickness accessible. This would hurt PVE quite a bit.

Imagine if reaper lost its quickness being sluggish again and most of its might gen, the DPS loss would be catastrophic in PvE and the loss in SPVP would be massive and felt.

You would only notice that in open world pve.Where it really doesn't matter that much.Yes you will notice it.But let's talk for real: that's not affecting pve endgame content at all.Will you notice it in pvp modes? Yeah - maybe. You need a pocket healer anyways to be effective so he can just give might.

But to be honest. I don't think that they will do much in terms of boons to necro.Why?

  • necro has only one boon, that he can keep up a fair amount of stacks alone. And only can share those to a fair amount on scourge.Yes we have regeneration, but the sources aren't good or you need very high boonduration to get it permanent.Protection

That's two examples. Overall the booncoverage of necro isn't really good. and most of them are only selfboons, that you have to heavily invest boonduration into, to get good uptimes.

Not like other classes, that can easily get very high boonuptimes without investing too much in concentration. While also having a wider range of different boons

Necro has:Might (self and others, but on other only good while on scourge)Swiftness (only self)Quickness (only self and only reaper)Protection (mostly self)Regeneration (ae)Fury (only self)

That's in my opinion the tierlist of necro boons from top to bottom.Might is definitely #1We could argue about swiftness, quickness and protection. I think they are all together #2 and regeneration and fury #3 because the uptimes and sources aren't that good

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@"Ragi.7291"It would be nice if you realized that the whole "burst throught combo" of the c-reaper only account for more or less 1k dps. If you manage to land it, it's nice, if you don't you'll just have a 1k dps loss on your potential dps. It's not like other professions don't face any difficulties as well in order to reach their max potential dps.

Also don't forget that meta mean most effective, a lot of builds are close to the meta in term of damage but ain't listed because they lag a tiny bit behind. "Why would you bother using c-reaper who do 500 dps behind the c-scourge which would give barrier on top of that?" This is this kind of reasoning that removed condi reaper from the possible "meta" builds, not a problem with combo.

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ragi.7291 said:isn't it enough to make the game more diversified?

The game is diversified. Diversity isn't about performance, especially not in this game.

Not much in terms of actual elite spec balance.

I think he has a point to say that we want to make the specs desirable and fun in (SPVP)

take for instance scrapper, why shouldn't it have some buff bot option that can compete let's say with firebrand? if the engi wants to its good for the game because hey maybe that engi has something, but they need to make sure it's not spamming 20 strength a bunch of defense and other stuff at the same time, making boon spam even crazier than firebrand.

Saying that I don't really know how good scrapper is now because I never played an engineer and never played a scrapper, so if you actually know guys, fill me in.

Could be good for the game if different supports

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Not sure why a change is warranted. Play power reaper , the ferocity bonus in the reaper traitline has been enlarged quite a bit from when Deathly Chill was relevant.

Right now only conditions with quick ramp such as burning are desired unless you're raiding or hitting something that doesn't phase but has huge healthbars such as a legendary bounty boss.

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@"Dadnir.5038"

"burst throught combo" of the c-reaper only account for more or less 1k dps.Indeed a thousand apologies I tested this on a single target it is indeed the case.I always forget that the burst no longer exists with the Deathly chill nerf from 3 to 2 stack.In group fighting it's more interesting to do 5, 111... in shrouds as you don't get ice combo + spiral.

But that doesn't mean that what I say above I keep it if you put a combo zone it's not for nothing so it's a priority for you, would be a good thing in my opinion. (not just for reaper)

After yes the reaper isn't meta, because he brings nothing to his team so he should have a much more important dps than the classes that buff or support at the same time as dps as elementalist, fleau, Fb condi, ...... (To compensate)

@"Obtena.7952 "

The game is diversified. Diversity isn't about performance, especially not in this game.

I should have specified with "viable diversity in group content", if you want balanced and diversified taking into account the solo open world, where the majority of people play longbow ranger or necro, spam 1.What do you want to diversify or balance most of them don't even use their CC or their special skills we see it very well in the last map.For the pve if you want a benchmark I would say the normal T4 fractal level quite a few people are in this range.

@Infusion.7149

Right now only conditions with quick ramp such as burning are desired unless you're raiding or hitting something that doesn't phase but has huge healthbars such as a legendary bounty boss.unfortunately this is quite true at the moment

@Axl.8924

personally, I'd much rather they make scourge or core a decent condi option instead of reaper first.I'm fine with reaper being power only for now.While it deletes the condition trait and replaces them valade options traits dps , survival or disengage for reaper line.just have to put viable options whether it's condi or power.

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