The current state of Condi Reaper

[ZDragon.3046]

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:Overall though i wouldnt worry about reaper in pve too much most of the changes they want to do in terms of nerfs are being considered for pvp and wvw only for the most part that i can tell.

It's especially for this reason that you should worry for reaper in PvE. If ANet suddenly decide that in order to tune down boons on the necromancer for PvP/WvW reason, a mechanic change is needed, then it will impact PvE.

IT will not as the teams are now split pvp and wvw balance no longer has ties to pve going forward. Did you miss this announcement?Only in super niche cases will a design change effect both modes. Changes like that are more so likely zero'ed in on scourge shades for example.

I didn't miss the announcement and I'm pretty clear that this announcement didn't say that they would consider mechanic split between gamemodes despite gamemmodes having different balancing team. It's safe to consider than anything that's not "number" tweeks will affect all gamemodes even if there is different balance team.

Then for most of the boon changes it shouldnt effect PVE as all those things can be ajusted via numbers as far as mightstacks and duration goes i wouldnt worry about it.Might gen traits are probably fine for the most part.RO does need a change (like i suggested) for all game modes because base reaper shroud attack speed is not acceptable in 2019 in any gamemode.

[ZDragon.3046]

@Dadnir.5038 said:@"Ragi.7291"It would be nice if you realized that the whole "burst throught combo" of the c-reaper only account for more or less 1k dps. If you manage to land it, it's nice, if you don't you'll just have a 1k dps loss on your potential dps. It's not like other professions don't face any difficulties as well in order to reach their max potential dps.

Also don't forget that meta mean most effective, a lot of builds are close to the meta in term of damage but ain't listed because they lag a tiny bit behind. "Why would you bother using c-reaper who do 500 dps behind the c-scourge which would give barrier on top of that?" This is this kind of reasoning that removed condi reaper from the possible "meta" builds, not a problem with combo.

Keep in mind condi reaper is not easy to perform and achieve that number of dps behind scourge as its locked to mostly bleeds for almost 100% of its conditional damage outside of the strike damage. ITs really really rough to achieve that 25-26k dps as a condi reaper and you need the best and i mean the best ideal situations to achieve it. Realistically most people wont be able to do it even on a training golem let alone in a real combat situation. It also ramps very slow as someone else said even if you wanted to run it as a off meta thing its not nearly as on point as other non meta condition builds let alone the meta ones.

Overall yes its not meta and you are good to define this but i dont think referring it to scourge is a good way to look at it. In competitive its not effective at all and scourge certainly still holds much more weight over it in terms of use, Scourge is still used for support or condi dps in raids, commonly in wvw, and to a lesser extent in as support in pvp (rare, usually on a comp team) while condi reaper is not really used in any of these. Even if the benchmark numbers are close their realistic play numbers are wide and far apart for a reason.

[Ragi.7291]

@"ZDragon.3046"I agree with you, on "Reaper's Onslaught" the trait outclasses the other 2 and is required if you want to do something in WvW and Pvp.But you have to be careful that with your modification the increase of the RShroud's base speed attack if you add quickness from an external source it will quickly become a monster.After a problem which is also an advantage but the cReaper uses more aoe over time on ground (5 shrould, Well of Darkness, Nightfall, ...) to put these conditions and against a moob it's fine, it's against a raid boss it's already more complicated and against a player it serves to scare more than anything else.If we look at the best dps conditions (except renegade in pve and scourge in wvw ^^), they are based mainly on direct attacks that put conditions, they usually have only one lasting aoe placed on the ground max 2. and it is very often burn that is the most profitable.

Come on, I'll suggest a little something if we change the bleeding on "Deathly Chill's" to another condition.As poison it combo with the new branch magic of death.Or torment it is 2 conditions are extremely strong in front of players.In Raid it would increase the dps on the bosses where we use condition spe.On the other hand, it wouldn't change anything about open world /fractales / donjon.

[Anchoku.8142]

Reaper dps, especially condi-dps, should have a steeper scaling slope for boons.

If a PvE group can maximize boon up-time, Reaper should benefit more.

By itself, Reaper self-might should be more limited. Groups that give Reaper boons should be rewarded with dps, not "My Reaper's dps is better than when I solo but not like every other profession."

Similarly, Necro soft-CC in group content should be worth more than it is, too.

Edit:To say it plainly, Reaper, core and Scourge are too close to max dps when played solo. Top builds from specializations should pay off more when supported by boons, condi clears, tanking, etc. The group reward curve is clipped right now but not nearly as much as before HoT. Still, scaling is Necro's issue in PvE; nothing else.

[Obtena.7952]

@"Ragi.7291" said:I should have specified with "viable diversity in group content", if you want balanced and diversified taking into account the solo open world, where the majority of people play longbow ranger or necro, spam 1.What do you want to diversify or balance most of them don't even use their CC or their special skills we see it very well in the last map.For the pve if you want a benchmark I would say the normal T4 fractal level quite a few people are in this range.

If you believe that, then you don't understand the foundation this game is built on in the first place. There is LOTS of viable diversity in group content because you don't need optimal builds to succeed in this game EVEN if you want to use T4 fractal levels as a baseline (which I would disagree with ... but that matters little).

The fact is that the question remains ... why does Anet need to buff this particular build? Of ALL the choices they have to buff, what makes this one stand out as THE one they should address? Maybe you think this is a new discussion, but I can assure you, I've had it dozens of times before.

I will leave you to your academic discussion, but the fact is that nothing differentiates condi Reaper as where Anet should focus necro attention, not even for the noble pursuit of 'diversity', considering we have that already.

[KrHome.1920]

@"ZeftheWicked.3076" said:Ha, bit too soon for this post OP. Recently they announced plans for necro changes (the part of the fall traits removal). Our fall trait will be changed to apply torment on applying control effect. Wiki states that "control effects" contain both hard and soft cc. If we get to apply torment stack each time we chill or cripple (along with fears ofc), then condi reaper might see pretty nice buff to his output.It will not work with soft CC.

Btw. the wiki does not say that soft CCs are control effects. It says:Control effects, also known as Crowd control (CC) or disables, are a set of effects that temporarily prevent actions or movement and disable all skills for the effect's duration. All control effects will interrupt the target.

Daze, Stun, Knockdown, Pull, Knockback, Launch, Float, Sink, Fear, Taunt

(Fear and Taunt are both conditions and control effects.)

The trait (an adept trait!) would be way to strong when any soft cc would add torment. It would be stronger than deathly chill (a gm trait!).

@topic:Condi reaper has the exact same amount of dps as condi scourge but is dependent on its ice field and so a very unreliable dps option. On the other hand it has more access to blinds than scourge to get some value out of chilling darkness and it is not dependent on boons on the target to apply significant amounts of torment.

The problem now is that anet's new torment on control effect trait competes with chilling darkness and so does not add any value to condi reaper because it's inferior even if it has no ICD. Reapers will pick chilling darkness and scourges will pick the new trait and nothing will change.

[Ragi.7291]

@"Obtena.7952"So let's take some facts.GW2 is made for casual players, PVE content is 90% feasible with auto-attack.So the target can do almost all the content, we stop the balancing to GW2, is the game good balanced in relation to its target. End ^^

1st casu player brings in money yes, but doesn't make the visibility of a game, donesn't create content outside the game, vast majority are silent on the media, and visibility and reputation is done by the people most invested in the game.Moreover, a positive experience in any field receives less feedback and comment than a bad experience.In addition, the most invested players, those who represent a tiny part of the community, themselves if you don't satisfy them either, they leave, don't create any more content, the game is less visible, less new players, + more negative atmosphere on all media where we talk about the game in question, so passive rejection of new player potential, so population down and it's an endless circle.In the medium and long term if you lose this part your game ends up in nothingness gradually.I'm not putting in opposition the 2 parts of the community I'm just saying they're complementary so that the game persists.

Now you don't agree with me on the T4 level, either take 2 fractals that come to mind (not counting the necessary RA)"Solid Ocean", don't stay in the aoe, killed mobs with the long range auto attack, interact with the crystal and used 1 when it is charged to the boss."Aetherblade" Don't go in the aoe, killed the mobs the auto attack from a distance, interact with buttons, jump on boxes to let the laser pass.It's 2 fractals for example are done entirely by auto-attack, it's long, boring but perfectly feasible.

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Now let's take a look at why, they have to invest resources in the diversity of META (the big bad guy)The more viable builds there are as meta on each class or spe:

• The more fans are interested in it because they make content ( no matter what the medium) and therefore make the game more visible so more new players and more revenue and what opens the community has played more things and tested more things.

• People who play only one class can access all the content of the game easily, which makes it easier to mix the different communities of players.

• The more viable META builds there are, the more it means that traits are balanced, which means that passively a player even when spanking a random build alone will have a smaller passive difference against a player with a built build than at present.

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Why the necromancer:I will take 2 examples

1. Look on this same forum, in profession, at the number of post and response of each class.Now let's compare them to meta.

   • Guardian and warrior are meta for 7 years in all game modes.They are the ones who have the least post and reaction, request for class redesign, skill,...Now let's compare those with the highest number of post and responses.
   • Necro, rejected from the meta since the 1st day of GW2 because he doesn't bring a buff to his team and he makes less dps than any other class that they bring.This is one of the classes where there is the most class redesign, skill or weapon post.And a lot of complaints about WvW.
   • Thief, a lot of reaction to stealth, build one shot and other.
   • Mesmer dominant class on a large part of the meta of the 3 game modes.But build one shot (it is no longer the case), stealth, clones, clone explosion skill, and the multiple rebounds of the chronomancien in pve and wvw and mirage in pvp

2. Simply, the level of rejection of the necromancer is rising more and more in the community.This was the case 7 years ago when you were getting kicked because you played this class or "no necro" in lfg, now it is back in the group content for a few months.And right now it's the only class that cares.

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Why condition reaper :The change to make it viable again META aren't huge to implement is changes in numerical value.3 years ago the cReaper was META, it had a condi burst via "Deathly Chill", this feature and other one was modified/ nerf this one came out of the meta and never came back + it continued to take indirect nerfs.

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Now yes there are many other topics that need to be addressed, but given at least 2 different build METAs to each spe would be a minimum.So yes the mesmer needs a big focus in some modes especially in WvW, stealth is a big problem, yes the support classes need to have all kinds of things to be viable in some game mode, the problem of over-stacking aoe, FX, buff,...But all these are problems they had 7 years for the treaties and nothing and they are problems that take time to solve.

• I don't forget more recently the renegade in pvp, wvw and the sadness of the druid who is satisfied only with heal and even that isn't terrible.

[KrHome.1920]

PvE:

• Support scourge (heal, barrier, might, rez) is great. It's the only scourge build I play, because I hate the spec but it is too good to not play it.
• Power reaper is top dps at any time when there is no 100% quickness uptime for the group. It's still not too bad if there is quickness.

PvP:

• Paladin spite curses power reaper has one single counter and that is thief. It's capable of killing everything else in 1v1 and still one of the best team fighters.
• Condi core necro is viable and very annoying to fight because it has tons of cc and sustained damage.

WvW:

• Necro has always been meta in the zerg.
• Roaming on the two mentioned above pvp power reaper and core condi builds is totally possible since the mount was introduced. If you want to fight thieves, templates are your friend for a quick and comfortable switching to a berserker spite soul reaping full burst setup to twoshot them and move along.

/offtopic

[Obtena.7952]

@Ragi.7291 said:@Obtena.7952So let's take some facts.GW2 is made for casual players, PVE content is 90% feasible with auto-attack.So the target can do almost all the content, we stop the balancing to GW2, is the game good balanced in relation to its target. End ^^

Exactly ... END, yet you go on and don't realize you were done here ... the only relevant fact here is this:

If anything past END you wrote was compelling for Anet to buff every build that players wanted to be 'viable' ... then we would have all these 'viable' builds. Yet we don't.

I mean, maybe from an academic POV, you're right. But this isn't a university and it's not a class in MMO design. Anet buffing a particular build is a PRACTICAL consideration, and almost ALL of those class based changes in the history of this game have been based on THEME, not performance.

[trixantea.1230]

@Obtena.7952 said:If anything past END you wrote was compelling for Anet to buff every build that players wanted to be 'viable' ... then we would have all these 'viable' builds. Yet we don't.

Anet is the one who gave birth to condi reaper and made it playable by giving it Deathly Chill trait and allowing it to be combined with other vanilla traitlines.

It is not just a build that players wanted to viable but it is playstyle that Anet created to promote build diversity which means that this builds HAS to be viable and yet you still keep arguing aginst it.

[Obtena.7952]

@trixantea.1230 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:If anything past END you wrote was compelling for Anet to buff every build that players wanted to be 'viable' ... then we would have all these 'viable' builds. Yet we don't.

Anet is the one who gave birth to condi reaper and made it playable by giving it Deathly Chill trait and allowing it to be combined with other vanilla traitlines.

It is not just a build that players wanted to viable but it is playstyle that Anet created to promote build diversity which means that this builds HAS to be viable and yet you still keep arguing aginst it.

I'm not arguing against it at all; that's just your misinterpretation. I'm telling you that you already have build diversity ... nothing stops you from playing condi reaper.

Don't claim you don't have diversity because you don't like the performance ... those are NOT the same thing.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

i liked how it originally functioned, chill tic'd like a damage condi. bring this back, but take a percentage of both power and condi damage and add them together to get the new deathly chill numbers (i think the old version was power only?).

something like: base damage 500 per sec, with a 0.4 coefficient for both power and condi (0.2 for pvp/ wvw). 0.4 should equate to about 3k dps in pve, and 0.2 half that (with full might).

edithmm didn't they change it cuz other chills were over writing the reapers? fix this somehow i guess...

[Sigmoid.7082]

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:hmm didn't they change it cuz other chills were over writing the reapers? fix this somehow i guess...

They did by turning into bleed

[Agrippa.1693]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@"Ragi.7291" said:isn't it enough to make the game more diversified?

Diversity isn't about performance, especially not in this game.

I think you're actually right on this! But that's also something I really don't like about this game. Because this means that the balancing equation that ANet uses factors in variables like 'look and feel' (especially in a game like this: "Fashion Wars 2"), 'marketing principles', 'what sells better', etc.! I understand, but I don't like it!

And especially for Necro's, this is far from ideal, cause well, it's pretty much the only real dark class you can choose (they tried a bit with the Revenant, but imo it's still too shiny ...), so if you like to choose or identify (or identified!) with such an archetype (and a lot of people do), you're stuck with the Necro. And to keep the overall Necro-player numbers in check they have to sacrifice performance. Again, I get it, I just don't like it!

[Kulvar.1239]

@Axl.8924 said:Currently, I'm more worried that they are going to nerf power reaper because ANET dev said they wanted to curb back boon spam, and Reaper is self-sufficient in getting might gen and they have quickness accessible. This would hurt PVE quite a bit.

Imagine if reaper lost its quickness being sluggish again and most of its might gen, the DPS loss would be catastrophic in PvE and the loss in SPVP would be massive and felt.

The tradeoff being that he's unable to grant itself perma Fury like any other class.