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Balance patch notes - 3.12


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We read your feedback on Detection Pulse feeling odd as the Purge Gyro's toolbelt skill and your desire to see Chemical Field returned. While we agree with the sentiment overall that there is more gameplay and interesting options with Chemical Field, there is also important counterplay present with Detection Pulse. As we can't place Purge Gyro's Detection Pulse back on the elite toolbelt slot, we're instead replacing Utility Goggles' lackluster toolbelt skill, Analyze, with Detection Pulse. Utility Goggles is also getting a small but significant change from granting fury to instead granting some brief resistance.

  • Starting at level 10, engineers can now swap weapons while out of combat, gaining an additional pair of weapon slots on their Hero panel.
  • Grenadier: Fall damage reduction has been removed from this trait. This trait now also casts Lesser Grenade Barrage on your location when using a healing skill.
  • Positive Strike: The power coefficient of this skill has been reduced from 0.88 to 0.7.
  • Negative Bash: The power coefficient of this skill has been increased from 0.88 to 1.
  • Equalizing Blow: The power coefficient of this skill has been increased from 1.2 to 1.4.
  • Function Gyro: Fixed a bug that could cause the gyro to be destroyed with control effects while stability was active.
  • Purge Gyro: This skill's toolbelt skill has been changed from Detection Pulse to Chemical Field.
  • Utility Goggles: This skill no longer grants fury or provides immunity to blindness. It now grants resistance and removes blindness when used. This skill's toolbelt skill has been changed from Analyze to Detection Pulse.
  • Toss Elixir R: This skill no longer removes 1 condition when thrown. Projectile speed has been increased by 25%. The projectile thrown by this skill is now unblockable. Fixed an issue in which the land and water versions of this skill moved at different speeds.
  • Toss Elixir U: Fixed a bug that could cause this skill to put friendly targets in combat.
  1. Just put Detection Pulse as elite mechanic for Scrapper, instead of Functionless Gyro, it'd be much more welcome;
  2. Nobody is using Utility Goggles, and nobody is gonna use them after that - only place we'll see them being used is just after GvG started and scrappers try to land reveal on enemy team, then immediately swapped back to Purge Gyro.
  3. Granade Barrage on heal skill? I'd really like to see ANet going crazy here and designing even weirder and more useless random effect. How about "Every 15 steps, apply 1 stack poison to one random enemy in 1200 radius, for 5 seconds."?
  4. Oh boy that increase of damage for hammer! I feel more tanky already.
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Well there vanishes detection pulse again. Nobody will take utility goggles, there's just no room for it on any spec. This is absolute hilarity.

The additional weapon slot out of combat is interesting, but ultimately it just improves scrapper (rifle/hammer swap for power builds) and holo (sword if rifle or pistols is your primary) far more than core (condi get zero use of the rifle and power get even less use of the pistols).

So this is a major elite powercreep.

But that's what we all wanted, right?

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I say it, I personally wanted the swap. And I'm not gonna asking now them to remove it. Engie suffered for too long of not having swap "because" it had kits (never considered them as alternative of weapon choices, they are all present in WvW but anywhere else it's mostly grenades-flamethrower-bombs)Turrets are slowly fading into the darkness too and nothing is done. That swap will make the class less clunky imho, making it more fluid.Always wanted to swap Hammer-Rifle as scrapper or Rifle-Sword/Shield as holo.

Currently, the swap will be outside of combat, not a big deal, because if you are still considered fighting, you can't swap. But it's really nice let's say in open world or fractal: You fight an enemy spamming Close Combat skills, you attack it from range, then the next one is strong ranged, you go CCing it. It will make easier to adapt to the situation.I will not call that a major Powercreep, during those 7 years some specs were really overpowered and over the top and nobody complained, now that Engie begin to feel Okay/nice, everyone starts complaining? Really? But anyway, if it can please anybody, increasing the power of my favorite class? Yeah I wanted it. I'm proud of it. It deserved it, wasn't just for the sake of gaining some power. Scrapper felt clunky for too long. Holo is a DPS class and so I don't consider it dealing ton of damages. But well core is meh. Rifle is okay but never was fan of pistols.

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@"hugo.4705" said:I will not call that a major Powercreep, during those 7 years some specs were really overpowered and over the top and nobody complained, now that Engie begin to feel Okay/nice, everyone starts complaining? Really? But anyway, if it can please anybody, increasing the power of my favorite class? Yeah I wanted it. I'm proud of it. It deserved it, wasn't just for the sake of gaining some power. Scrapper felt clunky for too long. Holo is a DPS class and so I dont't consider it dealing ton of damages. But well core is meh. Rifle is okay but never was fan of pistols.Yes, really. Note that I said elite power creep. This change does absolutely nothing for the core engie regardless of power or condi spec while it provides melee/ranged flexibility for the power scrapper and holo. It literally takes the meta and makes the meta stronger. It's the very definition of power creep.

And if the cost is the kitten reveal on kitten utility goggles, I'd rather not have it tbh.

The only glimmer of hope I have is that people accidentally swap to the other weapon and it turns out they are kitten at using it compared to their primary, or you get them in combat before they swap to the "proper" weapon against you. Might be good for a few laughs.

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@Dawdler.8521 said:

@"hugo.4705" said:I will not call that a major Powercreep, during those 7 years some specs were really overpowered and over the top and nobody complained, now that Engie begin to feel Okay/nice, everyone starts complaining? Really? But anyway, if it can please anybody, increasing the power of my favorite class? Yeah I wanted it. I'm proud of it. It deserved it, wasn't just for the sake of gaining some power. Scrapper felt clunky for too long. Holo is a DPS class and so I dont't consider it dealing ton of damages. But well core is meh. Rifle is okay but never was fan of pistols.Yes, really. Note that I said
elite
power creep. This change does absolutely nothing for the core engie regardless of power or condi spec while it provides melee/ranged flexibility for the power scrapper and holo. It literally takes the meta and makes the meta stronger. It's the very definition of power creep.

And if the cost is the kitten reveal on kitten utility goggles, I'd rather not have it tbh.

The only glimmer of hope I have is that people accidentally swap to the other weapon and it turns out they are kitten at using it compared to their primary, or you get them in combat before they swap to the "proper" weapon against you. Might be good for a few laughs.

Sure, and that's logical. I agree that being able to swap and so using more skills can/will increase your Damages Per Seconds. But It's very limited; since it's only out of fights, I think that factor really absorb the impact. Even if it's really consequent, Engie will never reach the DPS generated by the stronger elites out there. (But that's another story for elementalist, imagine a weaver + weapon swap...)

I also agree about that quaggan joke of Utility Goggles Changes.

Adding swap is cool, but an access to more weapons would be useful too.

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@hugo.4705 said:

@hugo.4705 said:I will not call that a major Powercreep, during those 7 years some specs were really overpowered and over the top and nobody complained, now that Engie begin to feel Okay/nice, everyone starts complaining? Really? But anyway, if it can please anybody, increasing the power of my favorite class? Yeah I wanted it. I'm proud of it. It deserved it, wasn't just for the sake of gaining some power. Scrapper felt clunky for too long. Holo is a DPS class and so I dont't consider it dealing ton of damages. But well core is meh. Rifle is okay but never was fan of pistols.Yes, really. Note that I said
elite
power creep. This change does absolutely nothing for the core engie regardless of power or condi spec while it provides melee/ranged flexibility for the power scrapper and holo. It literally takes the meta and makes the meta stronger. It's the very definition of power creep.

And if the cost is the kitten reveal on kitten utility goggles, I'd rather not have it tbh.

The only glimmer of hope I have is that people accidentally swap to the other weapon and it turns out they are kitten at using it compared to their primary, or you get them in combat before they swap to the "proper" weapon against you. Might be good for a few laughs.

Sure, and that's logical. I agree that being able to swap and so using more skills can/will increase your Damages Per Seconds. But It's very limited; since it's only out of fights, I think that factor really absorb the impact. Even if it's really consequent, Engie will never reach the DPS generated by the stronger elites out there. (But that's another story for elementalist, imagine a weaver + weapon swap...)Not sure what you mean, it makes it more
flexible
ie can adapt to more situations with less effort. It matters nothing for dps since you normally would have the highest dps weapon for your spec and you cant swap in combat. It matters quite alot in WvW/PvP however and how you approach enemies before engagements.

Well, less so until Anet limits template swaps but that's really only a matter of time.

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So if you were one of the players complaining about the "loss" of the poison field on purge gyro for detection pulse, you should be ashamed of yourselves. No high skill engineer cared about that poison fields existence - it was trash placeholder from day 1 until the day came when it was able get competitive changes (detection pulse). What in Gods name did you use the poison field for? It never made a difference in anything - EVER at any point in any game mode. Now, we have received our poison field back and detection pulse has been moved to a selfish utility. Now you can no longer clear conditions for allies and reveal enemies with the same skill.

Nice. The players who complained about the "loss" of the poison field... how long have you even played engineer, exactly? A few newbie engineers literally ruined a really, really competitive utility slot.

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Don't forget the PvP changes:

Engineer

  • Elixir U: Reduced stability duration from 6 seconds to 1 second in PvP only.
  • Kinetic Battery: Reduced quickness duration from 5 seconds to 3 seconds in PvP only.
  • Photon Wall: Increased cooldown from 35 seconds to 45 seconds in PvP only.
  • Heat Therapy: Reduced base healing per stack by 25% from 65 to 49 in PvP only.

.

@Dawdler.8521 said:Well there vanishes detection pulse again. Nobody will take utility goggles, there's just no room for it on any spec. This is absolute hilarity.

Have to disagree on you for this one. Utility goggles could actually fit nicely into prot holo and gadget holo for this -- resistance and stunbreak + unstealth. Especially when you consider how photon wall and Elixir U got nerfed in PvP, utility goggles might actually be viable.

@Dawdler.8521 said:The additional weapon slot out of combat is interesting, but ultimately it just improves scrapper (rifle/hammer swap for power builds) and holo (sword if rifle or pistols is your primary) far more than core (condi get zero use of the rifle and power get even less use of the pistols).

So this is a major elite powercreep.

I wouldn't necessarily say this is elite powercreep -- but yeah, it's way more useful for elite specs than core. They genuinely need to add more core weapons for engineer.

It also serves a secondary purpose for me -- the templates are particularly annoying with legendary weapons. Every time I swap in shield instead of pistol (between PvE and PvP), it unequips my infusions and sigil on the pistol. This change would allow me to not have to worry about that.

@"Ruufio.1496" said:So if you were one of the players complaining about the "loss" of the poison field on purge gyro for detection pulse, you should be ashamed of yourselves. No high skill engineer cared about that poison fields existence - it was trash placeholder from day 1 until the day came when it was able get competitive changes (detection pulse). What in Gods name did you use the poison field for? It never made a difference in anything - EVER at any point in any game mode. Now, we have received our poison field back and detection pulse has been moved to a selfish utility. Now you can no longer clear conditions for allies and reveal enemies with the same skill.

Nice. The players who complained about the "loss" of the poison field... how long have you even played engineer, exactly? A few newbie engineers literally ruined a really, really competitive utility slot.

  • Poison field was very useful for support scrappers in WvW. You could blast weakness or make rezzing for enemies in WvW much more difficult.
  • Detection pulse had no use in PvE -- so it was a functional nerf to PvE scrappers to have it on their bar.
  • ... and just thematically, it made no goddamn sense whatsoever to have detection pulse tied to purge gyro.
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I told people not to suggest that Function Gyro become an F5 skill yet people kept doing it... Now look what happened. ANet doesn't know where to put Detection Pulse and we have an elite mechanic that's even more situational than it was beforehand.

It's true most people don't use Utility Goggles, but it was a decent skill even if it wasn't often worth taking over something else. I don't like the changes and IMO, it's much worse off.

I'm not nearly as upset about the Utility Goggles change as I still am about placing Function Gyro on F5 though.

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@Dawdler.8521 said:

@hugo.4705 said:I will not call that a major Powercreep, during those 7 years some specs were really overpowered and over the top and nobody complained, now that Engie begin to feel Okay/nice, everyone starts complaining? Really? But anyway, if it can please anybody, increasing the power of my favorite class? Yeah I wanted it. I'm proud of it. It deserved it, wasn't just for the sake of gaining some power. Scrapper felt clunky for too long. Holo is a DPS class and so I dont't consider it dealing ton of damages. But well core is meh. Rifle is okay but never was fan of pistols.Yes, really. Note that I said
elite
power creep. This change does absolutely nothing for the core engie regardless of power or condi spec while it provides melee/ranged flexibility for the power scrapper and holo. It literally takes the meta and makes the meta stronger. It's the very definition of power creep.

And if the cost is the kitten reveal on kitten utility goggles, I'd rather not have it tbh.

The only glimmer of hope I have is that people accidentally swap to the other weapon and it turns out they are kitten at using it compared to their primary, or you get them in combat before they swap to the "proper" weapon against you. Might be good for a few laughs.

Sure, and that's logical. I agree that being able to swap and so using more skills can/will increase your Damages Per Seconds. But It's very limited; since it's only out of fights, I think that factor really absorb the impact. Even if it's really consequent, Engie will never reach the DPS generated by the stronger elites out there. (But that's another story for elementalist, imagine a weaver + weapon swap...)Not sure what you mean, it makes it more
flexible
ie can adapt to more situations with less effort. It matters nothing for dps since you normally would have the highest dps weapon for your spec and you cant swap in combat. It matters quite alot in WvW/PvP however and how you approach enemies before engagements.

Well, less so until Anet limits template swaps but that's really only a matter of time.

My bad, I think I'm not understanding you too.In order, you said:-So this is a major elite powercreep.-It provides melee/ranged flexibility for the power scrapper and holo. It literally takes the meta and makes the meta stronger. It's the very definition of power creep.-It matters nothing for dps since you normally would have the highest dps weapon for your spec and you cant swap in combat.

I don't see why speaking of Meta and Powercreep if we aren't speaking about DPS. That's not Powercreep. As you said it multiple time, it's flexibility.

Since it's outside of combat, so yeah you can't swap and gain more skills and so can't deal more damages. It's all but powercreep.

When a class is dealing way more damages overall that's powercreep.When a class is dealing way less damages overall that's a nerf.

Again I don't get your point, it just add flexibility. And well, all other classes have weapons swap, why not us?(No, kits are just fillers.)

I will redirect you to Vagrant's comment, which one is helpful and really fit what I think of the swap. (Quote just under that sentence)

"I wouldn't necessarily say this is elite powercreep -- but yeah, it's way more useful for elite specs than core. They genuinely need to add more core weapons for engineer."

And I agree with that. But as core I would like to check some swaps.Some more weapons will be nice.

To sum up, it's just that "major elite powercreep" really sounds like an hyperbole imho.

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@hugo.4705 said:

@hugo.4705 said:I will not call that a major Powercreep, during those 7 years some specs were really overpowered and over the top and nobody complained, now that Engie begin to feel Okay/nice, everyone starts complaining? Really? But anyway, if it can please anybody, increasing the power of my favorite class? Yeah I wanted it. I'm proud of it. It deserved it, wasn't just for the sake of gaining some power. Scrapper felt clunky for too long. Holo is a DPS class and so I dont't consider it dealing ton of damages. But well core is meh. Rifle is okay but never was fan of pistols.Yes, really. Note that I said
elite
power creep. This change does absolutely nothing for the core engie regardless of power or condi spec while it provides melee/ranged flexibility for the power scrapper and holo. It literally takes the meta and makes the meta stronger. It's the very definition of power creep.

And if the cost is the kitten reveal on kitten utility goggles, I'd rather not have it tbh.

The only glimmer of hope I have is that people accidentally swap to the other weapon and it turns out they are kitten at using it compared to their primary, or you get them in combat before they swap to the "proper" weapon against you. Might be good for a few laughs.

Sure, and that's logical. I agree that being able to swap and so using more skills can/will increase your Damages Per Seconds. But It's very limited; since it's only out of fights, I think that factor really absorb the impact. Even if it's really consequent, Engie will never reach the DPS generated by the stronger elites out there. (But that's another story for elementalist, imagine a weaver + weapon swap...)Not sure what you mean, it makes it more
flexible
ie can adapt to more situations with less effort. It matters nothing for dps since you normally would have the highest dps weapon for your spec and you cant swap in combat. It matters quite alot in WvW/PvP however and how you approach enemies before engagements.

Well, less so until Anet limits template swaps but that's really only a matter of time.

My bad, I think I'm not understanding you too.In order, you said:-So this is a major elite powercreep.-It provides melee/ranged flexibility for the power scrapper and holo. It literally takes the meta and makes the meta stronger. It's the very definition of power creep.-It matters nothing for dps since you normally would have the highest dps weapon for your spec and you cant swap in combat.

I don't see why speaking of Meta and Powercreep if we aren't speaking about DPS. That's not Powercreep. As you said it multiple time, it's flexibility.

Since it's outside of combat, so yeah you can't swap and gain more skills and so can't deal more damages. It's all but powercreep.

When a class is dealing way more damages overall that's powercreep.When a class is dealing way less damages overall that's a nerf.

Again I don't get your point, it just add flexibility. And well, all other classes have weapons swap, why not us?(No, kits are just fillers.)

I will redirect you to Vagrant's comment, which one is helpful and really fit what I think of the swap. (Quote just under that sentence)

"I wouldn't necessarily say this is elite powercreep -- but yeah, it's way more useful for elite specs than core. They genuinely need to add more core weapons for engineer."

And I agree with that. But as core I would like to check some swaps.Some more weapons will be nice.

To sum up, it's just that "major elite powercreep" really sounds like an hyperbole imho.So TL;DR only PvE exist, got it.

Its powercreep if it specifically adds more to the elites than core, but granted I did not consider one pro thats an advantage for all 3 - we can now add a secondary stacking sigil, freeing up a slot on the primary set.

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In WvW, Stealth will be a bigger problem now.

Outside of GvGs, most scrapper wont play goggles.

And what exactly is the poisenfield good for? Tagging players for 1-2 more lootbags?

„You can blast it for weakness“

I seriously would like to blast light and waterfield instead.

Cant wait to blast some crappy weakness that will be cleansed instantly.

The only good part is the fact that you can now use a stack sigil on the second weapon slot.

And i wont complain about free 250 healpower.

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I saw the balances notes and jumped on my chair reading the first part of the weapon swap sentence. But it's just an "out of combat" weapon swap… What's the point on this?! When are we gonna have the weapon swap we're asking for years?!

Engineer was a bad designed class since the release. If at least we got a weapon swap maybe the class would come to be more fun but anyway… My error was to play this class coz of originality...

Turrets are just oblivion, we Don't get new core weapons and we Don't have weapon swap… Well seems like I'm just going to continue to log on just for doing LV world episodes and Nothing more...

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@"gannondorf.7628" said:I saw the balances notes and jumped on my chair reading the first part of the weapon swap sentence. But it's just an "out of combat" weapon swap… What's the point on this?! When are we gonna have the weapon swap we're asking for years?!

Engineer was a bad designed class since the release. If at least we got a weapon swap maybe the class would come to be more fun but anyway… My error was to play this class coz of originality...

Turrets are just oblivion, we Don't get new core weapons and we Don't have weapon swap… Well seems like I'm just going to continue to log on just for doing LV world episodes and Nothing more...

OOC Weapon swap means you can use a stack sigil in wvw without having it on the "main" weapon. Just an example.

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So they decided to move a unique skill from an elite specialization into a core engineer skill. This is a rather unusual move, even for our profession. The original Detection Pulse was a Scrapper feature. After that patch, even Holosmiths can use it.

The utility goggles change appears also questionable to me. It is one of the few reliable fury sources of core engineer, a good stun-breaker and the blind-immunity allowed us to counter blind-spamming builds. Resistance as a buff is way too powerful if it has realistic duration. So I assume it will be significantly shorter than 10 seconds.

The toolbelt was great to counter stealth and boost damage output quickly (solo gameplay). Replacing the current toolbelt with Detection Pulse is not an improvement. They remove one reveal-skill from the class. So they just continue to balance stealth with the number of accessible reveals.

Grenadier "Lesser Grenade Barrage on your location when using a healing skill."Thoughts: promoting unattended farming, unintentionally entering combat state , unintentionally suicide due to retaliation/projectile reflects upon using a heal-skill on low health.

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@Jaruselka.5943 said:Maybe they could address the Engineer’s crappy down state skills? We are the only class that has a down state skill that pulls the enemy CLOSER to you when you are DYING. Seriously? Someone was hitting a bong when they came up with that one....

Makes a little more sense when you consider you can pull and then push with Booby Trap. Don't use the 2 skill to gap close someone unless you have Booby Trap, just use it as an interrupt to those already stomping you.

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@Chaith.8256 said:

@Jaruselka.5943 said:Maybe they could address the Engineer’s crappy down state skills? We are the only class that has a down state skill that pulls the enemy CLOSER to you when you are DYING. Seriously? Someone was hitting a bong when they came up with that one....

Makes a little more sense when you consider you can pull and then push with Booby Trap. Don't use the 2 skill to gap close someone unless you have Booby Trap, just use it as an interrupt to those already stomping you.

The most fun I've ever had in downstate is purposely denying someone a point while I'm downed. They leave me to bleed out, I pull them off the point, they start running back and boom, booby trap launches them past the point. I get such a giggle out of it. Then I get lucky and give them lots of chilled before I die.

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@Jaruselka.5943 said:Maybe they could address the Engineer’s crappy down state skills? We are the only class that has a down state skill that pulls the enemy CLOSER to you when you are DYING. Seriously? Someone was hitting a bong when they came up with that one....Dont really agree with that. If you chain pull->knockback->pull and the enemy is sluggish/dont pop safe stomp skills you can deny stomp for ~10s. In 1v1 or zerging it doesnt matter so much, but in 2-5 man smallscaling it can matter alot.

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@"Ruufio.1496" said:So if you were one of the players complaining about the "loss" of the poison field on purge gyro for detection pulse, you should be ashamed of yourselves. No high skill engineer cared about that poison fields existence - it was trash placeholder from day 1 until the day came when it was able get competitive changes (detection pulse). What in Gods name did you use the poison field for? It never made a difference in anything - EVER at any point in any game mode. Now, we have received our poison field back and detection pulse has been moved to a selfish utility. Now you can no longer clear conditions for allies and reveal enemies with the same skill.

Nice. The players who complained about the "loss" of the poison field... how long have you even played engineer, exactly? A few newbie engineers literally ruined a really, really competitive utility slot.

Let's be clear here ... it's NOT newbie players ruining class-based design decisions. ANet is COMPLETELY in control of this. Anet does not make changes to the game that they do not agree with.

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My main concern with the patch notes is just what is gonna happen with Reactive Lenses trait, i mean it was not the most powerful trait (i personally rarely take tools spec for anything) but some builds relied on its fury and now we are losing 10+ seconds of fury and blind immunity to get 1 ~ 2 seconds of resistance, it does not lose sinergy as resistance is a nice boon to have with a stun break but i believe stability would be better at least as we are trading a "potentially ofensive trait" for an even more defensive one.

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@Chaith.8256 said:

@"Hynax.9536" said:get 1 ~ 2 seconds of resistance

Source?

It is Just a guess, but based on how "powerful" anet believes resistance is i would not expect more than 4 seconds (being a lot generous here), and still we are losing two high duration boons (one offensive and one defensive) to get just one defensive boon with very low duration in general.

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@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Jaruselka.5943 said:Maybe they could address the Engineer’s crappy down state skills? We are the only class that has a down state skill that pulls the enemy CLOSER to you when you are DYING. Seriously? Someone was hitting a bong when they came up with that one....Dont really agree with that. If you chain pull->knockback->pull and the enemy is sluggish/dont pop safe stomp skills you can deny stomp for ~10s. In 1v1 or zerging it doesnt matter so much, but in 2-5 man smallscaling it can matter
alot
.

I play large scale (zerg) WvW almost exclusively so I guess my perspective is a little skewed. I can see the combo being useful in a havok group but then again the down skills in the other classes seem to be more useful regardless of the situation..

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