Balance patch 3rd of December

[Nimon.7840]

NecromancerIn addition to the updates to the revival skill Signet of Undeath and the falling damage trait Terrifying Descent, we are also revisiting a few issues from previous updates. Unholy Sanctuary is getting an update to help it better compete with the other updates to the Death Magic line, and Manifest Sand Shade is having its recharge reduced in PvE to make it easier to reposition shades.

Terrifying Descent: This trait has been reworked. It has been renamed Insidious Disruption. It now causes control effects to inflict torment on foes.Signet of Undeath: Reduced recharge to 75 seconds in all game modes. Reduced casting time from 3 seconds to 1.5 seconds. Reduced the number of allies revived from 3 to 1. Added an additional health cost of 50% of base health to this skill. Increased the passive life force gain by 100%.Sand Swell: Once activated, this skill can no longer be canceled by movement.Plaguelands: Reduced recharge from 120 seconds to 90 seconds in PvE only.Unholy Sanctuary: This trait now heals a percentage of your maximum health each second while in shroud. This value is 2% in PvE and 1% in competitive modes.Manifest Sand Shade: This skill no longer inflicts cripple in all game modes. Reduced ammunition recharge for the untraited version of this skill from 15 seconds to 8 seconds in PvE only.

WvW ChangesNecromancerSand Savant: This trait no longer increases the target cap of shade skills in WvW only.Devouring Darkness (from Lingering Curse): Reduced the number of boons corrupted from 2 to 1 in WvW only.

[Sarrs.4831]

Insidious Disruption sleeper OP. Causes you to apply Torment when you cause a blowout when you level up. Farming Lab has never been so efficient

[Dadnir.5038]

I'll make it simple. The reason why this game balance is a mess is mainly due to ANet coming up with this kind of change:

Unholy Sanctuary: This trait now heals a percentage of your maximum health each second while in shroud. This value is 2% in PvE and 1% in competitive modes.

While it's a buff that will be welcome (because players instinctively grasp at every straw you give them), design-wise this is an abomination that shouldn't ever be implemented into a game.

In practice, this change won't affect the choice of trait in death magic and the split between PvE and competitive mode mainly lead the player to wonder whether ANet have any clue about what priority PvE players have. From the very beginning, you won't take DM in PvE unless you intend to "tank" because death carapace exist. ANet can overbuff the necromancer health regen in PvE throught unholy sanctuary as much as they want, it won't change the fact that you will neither take the trait to tank nor take the traitline if you don't intend to tank and minion master thingy will benefit you more in open PvE.

Powercreeping a trait with an horrible design just to avoid trying to resolve the true problem of the trait. My respect for the balance team have gone down another bit...

[XECOR.2814]

The only place where necromancers are considered bottom tier is the roaming aspect in wvw or 1vX scenarios be it in wvw or pvp. The main reason according to me has always been the lack of re-sustain skills or lack of defense mechanics that scale with number of enemies. We have always been forced to have much better kiting skills and much better situational and positional awareness than others and we have some abilities to do that like casting marks behind us as we kite and keeping chill uptime etc.For necromancers it is always a battle between re-sustain skills cd vs uptime of skills that help us kite easily while casting damaging skills in intervals to rag the enemy down slowly. Right now the the re-sustain is too low and thus the chaining of these skills with kiting leave a big interval of highly vulnerability and having a buff to re-sustain skills will be a good direction to move so that they can enjoy the joy of playing solo like other classes too.

I think the signet passive and unholy sanctuary buffs are good and push what i mentioned before forward which is good.

The undeath signet active is creating lot of talks but believe me it would be a bit overpowered if we let it have 3 man rezz with the cd and cast time reductions in this patch specially because we have transfusion in our kit. The hp lost will not be a big problem as it is 50% of base hp which is like 9k or something, realistically necro builds go up to 25-30k in competitive modes as we usually go for tanky approach to sustain the damage and this will make us choose our priority and it wont be like cast signet off cd if someone is down which is much better gameplay imo. Also single target will go together with other revival signet skills on other classes. I know it is hard to swallow but i can imagine it being fine and i can imagine the devs logic with this change so its fine even tho i know many people dont like this.

Sand swell will finally wont be interrupted in the middle of its animation. This is a big qol change that people might not notice.

Terrifying Descent will be viable and might be meta on condi builds in small scale with support. It is a good change generalizing the functionality. I would love if it got the same treatment as CI on mirage and get an animation to show that it was activated.

Manifest sand change will be good for wvw zerg scenatios. Reducing cripple application will allow people to move out of bomb more effectively thus making fights more longer. At least the thought is to achieve that i guess. In pve we really needed the reduced recharge duration to reposition the shades.

Plaguelands got a good buff for pve condi dps but i'm afraid the scg cdps was made very clunky since the shade rework and many people have lost faith in it. Even though it will be ok eventually but i don't know if people will ever come back to play it in pve.

Devouring Darkness changes is good for wvw but its a double edged sword with boon spam being the other edge.

[Nimon.7840]

@XECOR.2814 said:The only place where necromancers are considered bottom tier is the roaming aspect in wvw or 1vX scenarios be it in wvw or pvp. The main reason according to me has always been the lack of re-sustain skills or lack of defense mechanics that scale with number of enemies. We have always been forced to have much better kiting skills and much better situational and positional awareness than others and we have some abilities to do that like casting marks behind us as we kite and keeping chill uptime etc.For necromancers it is always a battle between re-sustain skills cd vs uptime of skills that help us kite easily while casting damaging skills in intervals to rag the enemy down slowly. Right now the the re-sustain is too low and thus the chaining of these skills with kiting leave a big interval of highly vulnerability and having a buff to re-sustain skills will be a good direction to move so that they can enjoy the joy of playing solo like other classes too.

I think the signet passive and unholy sanctuary buffs are good and push what i mentioned before forward which is good.

The undeath signet active is creating lot of talks but believe me it would be a bit overpowered if we let it have 3 man rezz with the cd and cast time reductions in this patch specially because we have transfusion in our kit. The hp lost will not be a big problem as it is 50% of base hp which is like 9k or something, realistically necro builds go up to 25-30k in competitive modes as we usually go for tanky approach to sustain the damage and this will make us choose our priority and it wont be like cast signet off cd if someone is down which is much better gameplay imo. Also single target will go together with other revival signet skills on other classes. I know it is hard to swallow but i can imagine it being fine and i can imagine the devs logic with this change so its fine even tho i know many people dont like this.

Sand swell will finally wont be interrupted in the middle of its animation. This is a big qol change that people might not notice.

Terrifying Descent will be viable and might be meta on condi builds in small scale with support. It is a good change generalizing the functionality. I would love if it got the same treatment as CI on mirage and get an animation to show that it was activated.

Manifest sand change will be good for wvw zerg scenatios. Reducing cripple application will allow people to move out of bomb more effectively thus making fights more longer. At least the thought is to achieve that i guess. In pve we really needed the reduced recharge duration to reposition the shades.

Removing cripple application might implicate, that terrifying descent will also proc on soft CC's. Else this feels like a change with no reason behind it.Especially if you look at the pvp aspect. Cause this cripple is another sort of defense, that's taken away.

With that in mind looking at pve meta build.Scourge has access to:Cripple from szepter 2Knockdown from torch 5 (will this proc the trait, if Target can't be hard cc'd?)Would also require an offhand dagger, that brings weakness and blind.Then shadow fiend brings chill, blind, weakness)And plague lands will bring cripple 5x, weakness 4x, blind 3x, chill 2x

• We have fear from f4

In addition to the cooldown buff to plaguelands this would be an insane op skill.

From that I'd say, that the trait will get an icd.

Plaguelands got a good buff for pve condi dps but i'm afraid the scg cdps was made very clunky since the shade rework and many people have lost faith in it. Even though it will be ok eventually but i don't know if people will ever come back to play it in pve.

I still play it in my static at some bosses.For example xera.But that's because we only play one healer there.Adding a scourge, will reduce the amount of needed healing by 1/3. So the healer has to heal 1/3 less.While scourge still deals decent dmg. And also provides condi cleanses especially at the start of the fight.

Devouring Darkness changes is good for wvw but its a double edged sword with boon spam being the other edge.

I don't like that change.Especially when boons and the main boon farters aren't looked at.

[Sarrs.4831]

@Nimon.7840 said:Removing cripple application might implicate, that terrifying descent will also proc on soft CC's. Else this feels like a change with no reason behind it.

Insidious Disruption will not cause Torment on soft CCs. That would be two similar-purpose traits on the same tier.

[Nimon.7840]

@Sarrs.4831 said:

@Nimon.7840 said:Removing cripple application might implicate, that terrifying descent will also proc on soft CC's. Else this feels like a change with no reason behind it.

Insidious Disruption will not cause Torment on soft CCs. That would be two similar-purpose traits on the same tier.

Yeah I fear so as well.Sure it would be way to strong.Might only be good on condi-reaper but competes with chilling darkness...

[LucianDK.8615]

@"Dadnir.5038" said:I'll make it simple. The reason why this game balance is a mess is mainly due to ANet coming up with this kind of change:

Unholy Sanctuary: This trait now heals a percentage of your maximum health each second while in shroud. This value is 2% in PvE and 1% in competitive modes.

While it's a buff that will be welcome (because players instinctively grasp at every straw you give them), design-wise this is an abomination that shouldn't ever be implemented into a game.

In practice, this change won't affect the choice of trait in

death magic

and the split between PvE and competitive mode mainly lead the player to wonder whether ANet have any clue about what priority PvE players have. From the very beginning, you won't take DM in PvE unless you intend to "tank" because

death carapace

exist. ANet can overbuff the necromancer health regen in PvE throught unholy sanctuary as much as they want, it won't change the fact that you will neither take the trait to tank nor take the traitline if you don't intend to tank and minion master thingy will benefit you more in open PvE.

Powercreeping a trait with an horrible design just to avoid trying to resolve the true problem of the trait. My respect for the balance team have gone down another bit...

You seem to be missing that Death Magic and minionmastery have use when you are solo pve. I have a minionmaster reaper template swap for when alone, and standard power reaper in groups.But solo pve wise, I do not think Unholy Sanctuary can compete with Corrupter's Fervor at all. CF just plays far too well with Death's Carapace generation.

But what I am really curious about, will the increased passive effect of Signet of Undeath be worthwhile for a pve power reaper setup at all?I know Shadow Fiend is frequently used for the 10% lifeforce on the haunt command skill with 20s cd.

With SoU passive benefit increasing with 100%, we go from 2% lf per 3s, to 4% lf per 3s.

Before, we were roughly we roughly looking at 1.4% lf per 3s from Haunt, but with the additional bonuses of the inflicted debuffs and a bodyblock. Which arguably well made up for the slightly higher lf generation of SoU.But now? Can haunt still compare when the Lifeforce gain from SoU is nearly 3 times higher?

[Axl.8924]

So whats the data anyone test it yet? might come back soon.

[LucianDK.8615]

@Axl.8924 said:So whats the data anyone test it yet? might come back soon.

Noone can test it yet, its the patch notes for Dec3.

[Axl.8924]

Will this make them op? or will they underperform still due to buffs to the wrong thing?

[LucianDK.8615]

@Axl.8924 said:Will this make them op? or will they underperform still due to buffs to the wrong thing?

I think you need to be more specific about what you are asking for. Its fairly minor buffs that have arrived this time, and nerfs to scourge.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

Overall it’s a slight slight nerf for unholy sanctuary. 1% in competitive is 200 health on 20k health target... which is basically the same as it is now except it doesn’t scale with healing power anymore. For pve it’ll be nice but it’s still very low impact change.

Terrifying decent might be good but I bet they will give it an ICD. So mehhh

[Axl.8924]

@LucianDK.8615 said:

@Axl.8924 said:Will this make them op? or will they underperform still due to buffs to the wrong thing?

I think you need to be more specific about what you are asking for. It's fairly minor buffs that have arrived this time and nerfs to scourge.

I was curious about the effects of some of these on both condi reaper and or core necro.

[Sigmoid.7082]

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:Overall it’s a slight slight nerf for unholy sanctuary. 1% in competitive is 200 health on 20k health target... which is basically the same as it is now except it doesn’t scale with healing power anymore. For pve it’ll be nice but it’s still very low impact change.

Terrifying decent might be good but I bet they will give it an ICD. So mehhh

its 130 base with 12% hp scaling. I don't see how its a nerf in any way. With no investment in additional vit before this change you need 567 healing power to reach the healing value after the change in PvP and over 2200 in PvE. Not only that but this then scales with vit from any and all sources.

No matter how you look at it this is nothing but a buff.

[Dadnir.5038]

@"LucianDK.8615" said:I'm not forgetting anything, if you play solo minion master (or not), you won't take unholy sanctuary whether it's regen is high or not. If you play in group, you just won't take death magic.

There is to much bonus into Death carapace to even think about taking unholy sanctuary if you happen to take DM and you don't want to use minions. This "buff" is a wasted one and the very design of the change is a cancer for the game. No trait should allow sustain to disregard healing power.

[LucianDK.8615]

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@"LucianDK.8615" said:I'm not forgetting anything, if you play solo minion master (or not), you won't take

unholy sanctuary

whether it's regen is high or not. If you play in group, you just won't take

death magic

.

There is to much bonus into

Death carapace

to even think about taking

unholy sanctuary

if you happen to take DM and you don't want to use minions. This "buff" is a wasted one and the very design of the change is a cancer for the game. No trait should allow sustain to disregard healing power.

Ah, I think i misread what you said.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:Overall it’s a slight slight nerf for unholy sanctuary. 1% in competitive is 200 health on 20k health target... which is basically the same as it is now except it doesn’t scale with healing power anymore. For pve it’ll be nice but it’s still very low impact change.

Terrifying decent might be good but I bet they will give it an ICD. So mehhh

its 130 base with 12% hp scaling. I don't see how its a nerf in

any

way. With no investment in additional vit before this change you need 567 healing power to reach the healing value after the change in PvP and over 2200 in PvE. Not only that but this then scales with vit from any and all sources.

No matter how you look at it this is nothing but a buff.

It’s kinda just a neutral change. 80x20 is an extra 1600 health MAX (because you can only spend 20 seconds in shroud under ideal circumstances)

It’s just not impactful to the point where it still remains a failed aspect of the ability...I’m just glad they didn’t change it’s functionality which is perfectly fine

[XECOR.2814]

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@"LucianDK.8615" said:I'm not forgetting anything, if you play solo minion master (or not), you won't take

unholy sanctuary

whether it's regen is high or not. If you play in group, you just won't take

death magic

.

There is to much bonus into

Death carapace

to even think about taking

unholy sanctuary

if you happen to take DM and you don't want to use minions. This "buff" is a wasted one and the very design of the change is a cancer for the game. No trait should allow sustain to disregard healing power.

It looks good on paper for tanky builds together with traited signet and lf from fear in soul reaping so we can stay maximum time in shroud to allow us to get considerable amount of healing from unholy sanctuary. Fun thing about signet trait is we can also use signet of vampirism with that and it will also help us refill our hp while we hide in shroud. Not to mention the heal skill active itself will recharge faster while we hide in shroud so we can use it much more.

It is fixed that we would need (spite, dm and sr) or (spite, dm and reaper) for such a build.

We can use curses instead of spite but we would lose the traited signet meme.

[XECOR.2814]

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:Overall it’s a slight slight nerf for unholy sanctuary. 1% in competitive is 200 health on 20k health target... which is basically the same as it is now except it doesn’t scale with healing power anymore. For pve it’ll be nice but it’s still very low impact change.

Terrifying decent might be good but I bet they will give it an ICD. So mehhh

its 130 base with 12% hp scaling. I don't see how its a nerf in

any

way. With no investment in additional vit before this change you need 567 healing power to reach the healing value after the change in PvP and over 2200 in PvE. Not only that but this then scales with vit from any and all sources.

No matter how you look at it this is nothing but a buff.

It’s kinda just a neutral change. 80x20 is an extra 1600 health MAX (because you can only spend 20 seconds in shroud under ideal circumstances)

It’s just not impactful to the point where it still remains a failed aspect of the ability...I’m just glad they didn’t change it’s functionality which is perfectly fine

How did you come up with 80?

[XECOR.2814]

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@"LucianDK.8615" said:I'm not forgetting anything, if you play solo minion master (or not), you won't take

unholy sanctuary

whether it's regen is high or not. If you play in group, you just won't take

death magic

.

There is to much bonus into

Death carapace

to even think about taking

unholy sanctuary

if you happen to take DM and you don't want to use minions. This "buff" is a wasted one and the very design of the change is a cancer for the game. No trait should allow sustain to disregard healing power.

Even tho you dont like the trait, it will have its use and this is not the first trait that ignore healing power. All the % revives are doing the same thing. Rev and thief got life steal mechanics with very high base heal on siphons while requiring 0 heal power . Also we are needed to put lot of stats in vitality to make use of it effectively and since shroud scales with vitality while also scaling the heal too is a gift for us. It will have its niche with shroud camping playstyle for damage soak untill we get cd's back+an extra life saver on short cd. In short it isnt that cancer.

[LucianDK.8615]

What is the oppinion on the SoU passive improvement compared with Haunt for pve? Ive not seen responses to it yet.

[Sigmoid.7082]

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:Overall it’s a slight slight nerf for unholy sanctuary. 1% in competitive is 200 health on 20k health target... which is basically the same as it is now except it doesn’t scale with healing power anymore. For pve it’ll be nice but it’s still very low impact change.

Terrifying decent might be good but I bet they will give it an ICD. So mehhh

its 130 base with 12% hp scaling. I don't see how its a nerf in

any

way. With no investment in additional vit before this change you need 567 healing power to reach the healing value after the change in PvP and over 2200 in PvE. Not only that but this then scales with vit from any and all sources.

No matter how you look at it this is nothing but a buff.

It’s kinda just a neutral change. 80x20 is an extra 1600 health MAX (because you can only spend 20 seconds in shroud under ideal circumstances)

It’s just not impactful to the point where it still remains a failed aspect of the ability...I’m just glad they didn’t change it’s functionality which is perfectly fine

You're math is off. With no investment in healing power this will heal for 198/396 per second in PvP/PvE respectively.With your limit of 20s you're looking at 20%/40% of your health which works out at ~3960/7927. Currently if you do the same thing you would get 2600 and need a lot of healing power to reach the other figures. Not only that but the numbers only go up from here when adding vit.

Its not a neutral change its a straight buff to the ability.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

80 comes from taking 200-120 (the comparison between the new buff and the old)

So 80 times 20 seconds is an additional 1600 health (over 20 seconds)

@Sigmoid.7082 @XECOR.2814

[XECOR.2814]

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:80 comes from taking 200-120 (the comparison between the new buff and the old)

So 80 times 20 seconds is an additional 1600 health (over 20 seconds)

@Sigmoid.7082 @"XECOR.2814"

Yeah we will see how good or "bad" it is when its live lol.