Is it just me or is the Mirage not "mirage-y" enough and too similar to core mesmer?

[Sodeni.6041]

The theme of the mirage is to deceive your enemies so they don't know who the actual mesmer is. However, isn't core mesmer already capable of doing that with clones/stealth?

The only thing mirage adds is breaking enemy targeting with 2 new skills but this is kinda neglectable, even in PvP, because the enemy just has to press "tab" and instantly switches to the real mesmer again.

And ambush attacks aren't really "mirage-y" either because they are just special attacks you can do in mirage cloak.

So what is the mirage's actual purpose? I wonder why the devs decided to make this spec although its already very similar to core mesmer.

[atlashugged.7642]

The only thing mirage adds is breaking enemy targeting with 2 new skills but this is kinda neglectable, even in PvP, because the enemy just has to press "tab" and instantly switches to the real mesmer again.

That's news to me. Maybe I'm using tab wrong, but at least in my experience there's no guarantee it will switch to the mesmer right away. You have clones, phantasms, and other players that it may or may not sort through. So clicking was always easier to me. Maybe there's some hidden tab functionality I've missed though. Playing against mesmers was bad enough before, but axe/t users are super annoying with how often you have to retarget them manually. It may not take a lot of time to identify and stop the mesmer, but it can be enough time to lose a fight.

[Sodeni.6041]

@atlashugged.7642 said:

The only thing mirage adds is breaking enemy targeting with 2 new skills but this is kinda neglectable, even in PvP, because the enemy just has to press "tab" and instantly switches to the real mesmer again.

That's news to me. Maybe I'm using tab wrong, but at least in my experience there's no guarantee it will switch to the mesmer right away. You have clones, phantasms, and other players that it may or may not sort through. So clicking was always easier to me. Maybe there's some hidden tab functionality I've missed though. Playing against mesmers was bad enough before, but axe/t users are super annoying with how often you have to retarget them manually. It may not take a lot of time to identify and stop the mesmer, but it can be enough time to lose a fight.

@atlashugged.7642 said:

The only thing mirage adds is breaking enemy targeting with 2 new skills but this is kinda neglectable, even in PvP, because the enemy just has to press "tab" and instantly switches to the real mesmer again.

That's news to me. Maybe I'm using tab wrong, but at least in my experience there's no guarantee it will switch to the mesmer right away. You have clones, phantasms, and other players that it may or may not sort through. So clicking was always easier to me. Maybe there's some hidden tab functionality I've missed though. Playing against mesmers was bad enough before, but axe/t users are super annoying with how often you have to retarget them manually. It may not take a lot of time to identify and stop the mesmer, but it can be enough time to lose a fight.

When I play against a mesmer in PvP I just have to press tab and always switch to the real mesmer. It's the same with minion mancers or other professions with additional AI.

[Amityel.5324]

think is you can recognize core mesmer easily by dodges and attack that illusions do not do......mirage improved it so enemy cant see when if you dodge and if you take grandmaster trait they dunno if you or your illusion is doing ambush attacks

[Pyroatheist.9031]

Tab will select the mesmer before phantasms. It will not select the mesmer before clones.

[Sodeni.6041]

@Pyroatheist.9031 said:Tab will select the mesmer before phantasms. It will not select the mesmer before clones.

Well if that's the case the Mirage is still not enough of a mirage in my opinion. Also, clones die like flies in pvp, sadly.

[Llethander.3972]

Clones are supposed to be glass and shatter at a sneeze because they look exactly like the Mesmer. It's Phantasms that are meant to take a bit more damage but deal more damage because it's obvious that it's not the mesmer.

[Levetty.1279]

Everytime I point out that Mirage isn't different from what core Mesmer is supposed to be, people who don't play Mesmer come in and tell me how wrong I am because (insert skill here) makes the build completly new and unique because it can't be used on Mesmer before going back to playing the actual elite specs on other classes.

[Sodeni.6041]

@Levetty.1279 said:Everytime I point out that Mirage isn't different from what core Mesmer is supposed to be, people who don't play Mesmer come in and tell me how wrong I am because (insert skill here) makes the build completly new and unique because it can't be used on Mesmer before going back to playing the actual elite specs on other classes.

I agree with you. It's not that different from base mesmer.

[Warlyx.6732]

i was expecting more "mirrors" to be honest kinda like a huge mirror for the enemies and if u move to the right the mirror shows the enemy that u are moving to the left , that kind of confusion , or would be cool to have a skill that make enemy players move the other way kinda like changing they keybinds of movement for a few seconds .

[Llethander.3972]

I was disappointed by the fact that there are only 3 skills that generate Mirrors and one is a shatter linked to a trait. But I went back to playing core Mesmer because I don't like being a boon-bot and Mirage wasn't my style.

[Curunen.8729]

The only unique "mirage-y" style is IH clone ambush evade spam.

Every other mirage build is not unique compared to base mesmer or chrono.

As such I'd rather see this be further supported by making IH a minor trait and putting even more emphasis on clones and detargeting together with more access to mirage mirrors (sure not a thematic mechanic, but as it's there it would be nice to have more access).

I don't want phantasm spam, I don't want shatter spam - chrono and base mesmer do this enough. I want clone deception and confusion (literal) for mirage as the primary focus with shatter and phantasms as secondary mechanics.

[Sodeni.6041]

@Warlyx.6732 said:i was expecting more "mirrors" to be honest kinda like a huge mirror for the enemies and if u move to the right the mirror shows the enemy that u are moving to the left , that kind of confusion , or would be cool to have a skill that make enemy players move the other way kinda like changing they keybinds of movement for a few seconds .

I was just expecting more deception in general. Like moving clones that perform more skills, illusions of the enemy, utilities/traits with stealth, maybe even more than 3 clones at a time, an elite skill that puts 5-8 clones on a target for 3-5 seconds. Yeah, like crazy stuff. Not an elite spec that is that similar to core mesmer and not really game-changing.

[Sodeni.6041]

@Llethander.3972 said:I was disappointed by the fact that there are only 3 skills that generate Mirrors and one is a shatter linked to a trait. But I went back to playing core Mesmer because I don't like being a boon-bot and Mirage wasn't my style.

Yeah mirrors could have been a new class mechanic but no.... The devs dont bother changing the shatter skills, as they did with chronomancer.

[Carighan.6758]

@Levetty.1279 said:Everytime I point out that Mirage isn't different from what core Mesmer is supposed to be, people who don't play Mesmer come in and tell me how wrong I am because (insert skill here) makes the build completly new and unique because it can't be used on Mesmer before going back to playing the actual elite specs on other classes.

Pretty much. Mirage is 20% of what core mesmer should be. Still lots of things to fix. Slightly better though.

[Sodeni.6041]

@Curunen.8729 said:The only unique "mirage-y" style is IH clone ambush evade spam.

I don't want phantasm spam, I don't want shatter spam - chrono and base mesmer do this enough. I want clone deception and confusion (literal) for mirage as the primary focus with shatter and phantasms as secondary mechanics.Completely agree with that!

[Ithilwen.1529]

Mirage is a small upgrade from core Mesmer. The main benefit I see is the extra condi clear and heal. Even at that, it's precious little. The elite does 3 stacks of confusion on a 20 second cooldown. You're kidding, right?

I haven't tried the target break skills much as it's suicide to get close enough to several of the classes to use them. Beside that, they require clones to use effectively and clones do not reliably survive long enough. I break target, but all my clones are instantly destroyed by random aoe. I wasted a cooldown and a skill slot and got basically nothing in return.

I respectfully submit that I feel a bit trolled. Still, I'm hoping to find some kind of combination or something in the spec.

[Sodeni.6041]

@Ithilwen.1529 said:Mirage is a small upgrade from core Mesmer. The main benefit I see is the extra condi clear and heal. Even at that, it's precious little. The elite does 3 stacks of confusion on a 20 second cooldown. You're kidding, right?

I haven't tried the target break skills much as it's suicide to get close enough to several of the classes to use them. Beside that, they require clones to use effectively and clones do not reliably survive long enough. I break target, but all my clones are instantly destroyed by random aoe. I wasted a cooldown and a skill slot and got basically nothing in return.

I respectfully submit that I feel a bit trolled. Still, I'm hoping to find some kind of combination or something in the spec.

Yeah clones survivability is a joke in pvp. I'd have loved if the mirage got a trait that drastically increased the clones health. Or if you enter combat you automatically summon a clone that can't be destroyed so you always have at least one up.

[atlashugged.7642]

@Ithilwen.1529 said:Mirage is a small upgrade from core Mesmer. The main benefit I see is the extra condi clear and heal. Even at that, it's precious little. The elite does 3 stacks of confusion on a 20 second cooldown. You're kidding, right?

I haven't tried the target break skills much as it's suicide to get close enough to several of the classes to use them. Beside that, they require clones to use effectively and clones do not reliably survive long enough. I break target, but all my clones are instantly destroyed by random aoe. I wasted a cooldown and a skill slot and got basically nothing in return.

I respectfully submit that I feel a bit trolled. Still, I'm hoping to find some kind of combination or something in the spec.

I'm starting to come around to making IH baseline because of complaints like this. I play exclusively with IH at this point in PvP, and it improves clone survivability a lot (they still die fast, but they die after doing whatever you wanted to do with them).

[LiesAndErr.2085]

At least in PvE from my experience, IH is almost necessary to ensure that your clones survive longer. The fact that they also gain access to Ambush attacks (which I know aren't really the best, save for maybe axe, and sword in PvP) makes it almost too good not to take. Axe clones are actually quite good at stacking conditions, especially with the Ambush, so their survival helps your dps a decent amount (including you, and with the axe master trait, that's 12 stacks of confusion with a single dodge). I really hope the future changes push mirage toward keeping your clones alive and having them be more viable; shatters however are still a solid option here because of all the clones you pump out which is nice.

[Sodeni.6041]

@atlashugged.7642 said:

@Ithilwen.1529 said:Mirage is a small upgrade from core Mesmer. The main benefit I see is the extra condi clear and heal. Even at that, it's precious little.

The elite does 3 stacks of confusion on a 20 second cooldown. You're kidding, right?

I haven't tried the target break skills much as it's suicide to get close enough to several of the classes to use them. Beside that, they require clones to use effectively and clones do not reliably survive long enough.

I break target, but all my clones are instantly destroyed by random aoe. I wasted a cooldown and a skill slot and got basically nothing in return.

I respectfully submit that I feel a bit trolled. Still, I'm hoping to find some kind of combination or something in the spec.

I'm starting to come around to making IH baseline because of complaints like this. I play exclusively with IH at this point in PvP, and it improves clone survivability a lot (they still die fast, but they die after doing whatever you wanted to do with them).

Yeah its awful that the mirage hasn't got IH as baseline. Without the trait the mesmer only can do ambush attacks which is a joke.

[flog.3485]

I kinda wish, after playing mirage some time, that IH was made baseline also. And to replace it, I feel like it crystals should have a mechanic similar to empowering mantras.Something like this:"Empowering crystals"Crystals you summon last 2 seconds longer. Each crystal shattered give a 5% damage boost (or even 3% damage if it is too high) on your next ambushed attack. Max cap at 15% (10 seconds cooldown). So basically, you shatter crystals and the next ambush attack that you perform on the target gets you rid of of your charges and then the trait goes on cooldown

[FaboBabo.3581]

"The elite does 3 stacks of confusion on a 20 second cooldown. You're kidding, right?"

Sure , let's forget about the cleanse + 450 unit tp + leap finisher, cause it's basically meaningless, right ?

[Exciton.8942]

It is a bit like daredevil design, making an already pretty ellusive class even more so.

In PvP, you will never make real players completely lost on which is the real mesmer. The whole point is to cause split-second confusion so you can take advantage of.

[Sodeni.6041]

@flog.3485 said:I kinda wish, after playing mirage some time, that IH was made baseline also. And to replace it, I feel like it crystals should have a mechanic similar to empowering mantras.Something like this:"Empowering crystals"Crystals you summon last 2 seconds longer. Each crystal shattered give a 5% damage boost (or even 3% damage if it is too high) on your next ambushed attack. Max cap at 15% (10 seconds cooldown). So basically, you shatter crystals and the next ambush attack that you perform on the target gets you rid of of your charges and then the trait goes on cooldown

I think we all can agree that IH should be baseline. I also think that mirrors (crystals as you call it) should be reworked to some kind of AoE with a debuff rather than its current form.

The grandmaster traits should all affect the mirage cloak mechanic. There is already one trait that gives you a stunbreak and thus more survivability, another one for condition builds and if you make IH baseline it would be perfect to replace it with a trait that focuses around power damage.