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I seriously consider an alliance with Jormag.


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Of all the remaining elder dragons, Primordus and Bubbles have one thing over Jormag.

The location.

Both are in near impossible to access areas.

Below the ocean and in the Magma of the Planet.

The Ice Magic of Jormag counters the Fire Magic of Primordus and having Ice Magic against a Water Dragon seems like a good idea.

( It would also make it easier for Anet to create map in the ocean for the potential bubbles fight)

If i would be in the commanders shoes, i would seroiusly think about an alliance.

Thoughts?

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I'm thinking the same as you. If Jormag has been communicating with Aurene, as he has implied (unless it was a lie and he only said that to simply manipulate us) and he really wants to help Aurene, I would certainly form an alliance with him. Atleast for as long as needed to eliminate the other remaining Elder dragons.Plus it would be a cool plot-twist.

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@DanAlcedo.3281 said:The Ice Magic of Jormag counters the Fire Magic of Primordus and having Ice Magic against a Water Dragon seems like a good idea.

There is no evidence at all that one of Bubbles' domains actually is related to water.It's only called Deep-Sea Dragon due to its location.For all we know, it's domains might be Winds and Pleasure.

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Why should we even consider an alliance with a dragon whose main thing is persuasion? ^^ He's good at manipulating others. What makes you think the PC is so special? It's the same tactics Jormag has always been using: arguments and offers that sound so convincing to the individual that they actually consider joining them or at least not attacking them too seriously.

I will be very disappointed if the PC ever even considers believing Jormag. Even if it does turn out Jormag might not be the most serious threat right now, we should still work independent from it.

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But as Jormag domain of influence is persuasion shouldn’t the Commander show some susceptibility to being convinced of Jormag’s offer? I think from a storytelling perspective a fall is needed. Preferably the Commander’s, but at the very least from a trusted confidant in the Commander’s inner circle. The hero needs to have his weakness shown and exploited.

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Anything to break the plot of three story arks before this which all ended in the repetitive kill the dragon outcome. I personally hope for a thread which is bigger then Jormag, making it necesary to join forces. I would welcome an otherwordly/otherrealm not yet known entity (or entities) to make the story refreshing again. So also not gw 1 related, this has been done too many times also.

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I wouldn't believe a single word coming from Jormag, this cyrcle of awakening and extinction as been going so many times, yet no race has ever survived by forming an alliance with one of the elder Dragon, besides, Jormac corrupts everything it manages to persuade and what are its boys doing? attacking everything and everyone, like our little base at Jora's keep. Its like speaking of an alliance while at the same time attaking the guy you want to ally with.

Again, I wouldn't believe a single word from that snake.

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@Drgnfly.5812 said:The hero needs to have his weakness shown and exploited.Maybe. But that weakness should be convincing and not pulled out of nowhere just for the sake of drama. For me at this point even slightly considering Jormag's offer feels out of character for the Commander who should simply know better by now. They are not that naive after seven years of war against Elder Dragons and a former god. Even Braham should know better by now.At least I hope so.

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Maybe.There's a LOT of reasons to not join Jormag. Namely, that no matter how persuasive her argument is, her actions undermine it. Sure, she has the "I'm just trying to defend myself" argument given to Aesgir, but her actions are not those of one interested only in self-defense. The Fallen, Abberant, aggressive Svanir cultists, Boneskinner, convincing Vigil to commit suicide, ruthless murder of anyone disagreeing with her cause, and now--reaching beyond the Shiverpeaks to corrupt charr who don't care what's going on in norn-land.... she's definitely a ruthless conqueror, and she's obviously trying to kill or enslave you.The only arc where I could see this working is if we find a way to cleanse her of the corruption that turned the other elder dragons into crazy monsters. By that point, Jormag could become a Vlast-like figure--no empathy or liking for mortals, but grateful to Aurene and the commander for saving her. In which case she could help out of a sense of "duty" to Aurene, the way Vlast served out of duty to Glint.

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I mean the Charr not caring about what goes on in Norn land is debatable. Of the races, both the Charr and the Norn are the most violent, and most likely to aggressively attack the Elder Dragons when given the chance. The Legions might of been sorting out their own problems at the time, but with Kralk gone their eyes inevitably turn to any force greater then themselves.

Mind you i'm playing devils advocate, Jormags actions are too hideously evil to risk spreading into Tyria. They need to be contained at the very least.

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An 'alliance' might be a bit strong, but the Commander would be kind of dumb not to consider the possibility of some kind of truce. We know Jormag can't simply be killed without destroying the world and we currently have no way around that like we did with Kralk.

So as far as the Commander is concerned, the only options currently are to be at active war with a powerful dragon that you can't kill, or to come to some sort of arrangement like Asgeir did.

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@Fenella.2634 said:

@Drgnfly.5812 said:The hero needs to have his weakness shown and exploited.Maybe. But that weakness should be convincing and not pulled out of nowhere just for the sake of drama. For me at this point even slightly considering Jormag's offer feels out of character for the Commander who should simply know better by now. They are not that naive after seven years of war against Elder Dragons and a former god. Even Braham should know better by now.At least I hope so.Yeah. Jormag may be a master manipulator, but they have a massive uphill battle for the Commander (even more so for a Sylvari player character). They're not some shadowy benefactor who gets in our good graces before revealing their true identity and the nefarious ulterior motive they had all along. We know already that they're one of our main nemeses. Pretty much, they're going to have to use mind control to ever get me to believe that my character would fall for them.

At the very least, I'm going to need Aurene to tell me that they have an agreement (why would I trust Jormag saying that?), and I'm going to need absolutely undeniable proof of a greater threat. But even then...

@"Weindrasi.3805" said:Maybe.There's a LOT of reasons to not join Jormag. Namely, that no matter how persuasive her argument is, her actions undermine it. Sure, she has the "I'm just trying to defend myself" argument given to Aesgir, but her actions are not those of one interested only in self-defense. The Fallen, Abberant, aggressive Svanir cultists, Boneskinner, convincing Vigil to commit suicide, ruthless murder of anyone disagreeing with her cause, and now--reaching beyond the Shiverpeaks to corrupt charr who don't care what's going on in norn-land.... she's definitely a ruthless conqueror, and she's obviously trying to kill or enslave you.The only arc where I could see this working is if we find a way to cleanse her of the corruption that turned the other elder dragons into crazy monsters. By that point, Jormag could become a Vlast-like figure--no empathy or liking for mortals, but grateful to Aurene and the commander for saving her. In which case she could help out of a sense of "duty" to Aurene, the way Vlast served out of duty to Glint.Exactly. The mass murder of anyone who disagrees with Jormag doesn't exactly sell their argument. If Jormag wanted to convince me that they were heroic, the Sons of Svanir should be straight-up pacifists, at least until we get to this supposed greater threat (could scarcely say they meant us ill, then). Self defense isn't a good argument either, because we wouldn't even be in this position if Jormag didn't chase out the Norn to begin with (not to mention Svanir himself).

Frankly, the whole "I swear I need your help against a greater threat" sounds like a lie tailor-made for the Commander (like the other tailor-made lies we hear from other characters), because that's the sort of thing we do. It doesn't hold up to scrutiny though. Even if it turns out to be true, Jormag would still be at fault for completely failing to give us any reason to believe them (and I don't see why we wouldn't just see both as enemies). There's a vague feeling that a peaceful solution could exist, but the onus is completely on Jormag to show that they don't have to be a world-destroying menace like the other Elder Dragons (and they'd need a really good excuse for the victims they've already made). We have nothing to prove.

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The thing to understand is that the situation isn't new, we were in the same situation with Zhaitan and Mordremoth, we just didn't /know/ that killing them would destroy the world, and we just got kind of lucky that it didn't (mostly, at least).

Jormag knows this, she knows that no matter what we can only fight her to a standstill, and not only do Elder Dragons have literally hundreds or thousands of years to be patient, but an Elder Dragon fears nothing, not even death. This is a very important and iconic line from Kralkatorrik because it shows us that dragons aren't motivated by their own survival; not even Zhaitan defended Arah because he has "afraid".

Why's this important? "You made dragon know fear..". The entire Personal Story is retconnned by this statement; there's a hidden flow of events that we were unaware of the entire time since we just thought we were assaulting a weakening, vulnerable and even cowering enemy.

Jormag knows what it is, a trump card that even the Commander will be vulnerable to.. "Persuasion".

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@"Hannelore.8153" said:an Elder Dragon fears nothing, not even death. This is a very important and iconic line from KralkatorrikWasn't this just a line from the magical madness that consumed Kralkatorrik's actual self?

Why's this important? "You made dragon know fear..". The entire Personal Story is retconnned by this statementHow so? The only mentions of a dragon being afraid was in Trahearne's speeches. Those hardly qualify as proof that Zhaitan actually was afraid.Just because the dragons now know fear, doesn't mean they knew back then.I don't see the retcon there.

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@Fueki.4753 said:

@"Hannelore.8153" said:an Elder Dragon fears nothing, not even death. This is a very important and iconic line from KralkatorrikWasn't this just a line from the magical madness that consumed Kralkatorrik's actual self?

Why's this important? "You made dragon know fear..". The entire Personal Story is retconnned by this statementHow so? The only mentions of a dragon being afraid was in Trahearne's speeches. Those hardly qualify as proof that Zhaitan actually was afraid.Just because the dragons
now
know fear, doesn't mean they knew
back then
.I don't see the retcon there.

That particular line came from the Largos.

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@Hannelore.8153 said:

@Hannelore.8153 said:an Elder Dragon fears nothing, not even death. This is a very important and iconic line from KralkatorrikWasn't this just a line from the magical madness that consumed Kralkatorrik's actual self?

Why's this important? "You made dragon know fear..". The entire Personal Story is retconnned by this statementHow so? The only mentions of a dragon being afraid was in Trahearne's speeches. Those hardly qualify as proof that Zhaitan actually was afraid.Just because the dragons
now
know fear, doesn't mean they knew
back then
.I don't see the retcon there.

That particular line came from the Largos.

But we still have no proof that statement reflected reality.It still seems more like it was an assumption her part.

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@"Pax.3548" said:I wouldn't believe a single word coming from Jormag, this cyrcle of awakening and extinction as been going so many times, yet no race has ever survived by forming an alliance with one of the elder Dragon, besides, Jormac corrupts everything it manages to persuade and what are its boys doing? attacking everything and everyone, like our little base at Jora's keep. Its like speaking of an alliance while at the same time attaking the guy you want to ally with.

Again, I wouldn't believe a single word from that snake.

HeyPunchChampion!PunchWannaPunchmake an alliance with me?Punch, Punch1AfTHyd.gif

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@Hannelore.8153 said:The thing to understand is that the situation isn't new, we were in the same situation with Zhaitan and Mordremoth, we just didn't /know/ that killing them would destroy the world, and we just got kind of lucky that it didn't (mostly, at least).

Jormag knows this, she knows that no matter what we can only fight her to a standstill, and not only do Elder Dragons have literally hundreds or thousands of years to be patient, but an Elder Dragon fears nothing, not even death. This is a very important and iconic line from Kralkatorrik because it shows us that dragons aren't motivated by their own survival; not even Zhaitan defended Arah because he has "afraid".

Why's this important? "You made dragon know fear..". The entire Personal Story is retconnned by this statement; there's a hidden flow of events that we were unaware of the entire time since we just thought we were assaulting a weakening, vulnerable and even cowering enemy.

I don't see how the personal story is at all retconned by the addition of "Elder Dragons don't fear anything". I mean, the claims that Zhaitan was afraid was because it roared when we killed powerful champions like the Eyes and Mouths. Everyone assumed this roar meant fear. But who says that's what it really was?

It's called unreliable narrator for a reason: because the people speaking are speaking from their limited knowledge perspective, and not the perspective of knowing the whole scope of the story.

At multiple points in the story, we hear Zhaitan roar. When Sayeh hears it, she says:

Sayeh al' Rajihd: The dragon roars in fear! These ancient foundations will not withstand the sound.https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Temple_of_the_Forgotten_God

But when Galina and Snarl hear it, they say:

Galina Edgecrusher: That was no earthquake, that was Zhaitan's roar. Ha! We made a dragon mad enough to throw a tantrum. Must be hungry, the poor little lizard.https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Estate_of_Decay

These roars were the same. One assumed fear, another assumed anger. Which is true? Latter lore suggests Galina had a better feel for Zhaitan than Sayeh did; but perhaps neither were correct.

Also, fun fact: Several dialogue was changed during A Light in the Darkness; one of the lines changed was:

Vision Trahearne: The dragon wants us to be afraid, because fear will tear us apart. Fear will destroy us!Vision Trahearne: But I tell you this — I am not afraid! I may die, but I will never kneel!Vision Trahearne: Did you feel that? It is the dragon who is afraid!Which has changed to:Vision Trahearne: The dragon is a fearsome enemy. It wants nothing more than to paralyze us with doubt.Vision Trahearne: But I tell you this—we are not afraid! We will never kneel!Vision Trahearne: Do you feel that? The dragon hears us!https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/A_Light_in_the_Darkness

This was changed a long time ago, before Season 3 even (also not the only bit changed - a lot of that dialogue was altered for better flow and voice acting).

@Fueki.4753 said:

@Hannelore.8153 said:an Elder Dragon fears nothing, not even death. This is a very important and iconic line from KralkatorrikWasn't this just a line from the magical madness that consumed Kralkatorrik's actual self?No, it was a line from Kralkatorrik personally.

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@Fueki.4753 said:

@Hannelore.8153 said:an Elder Dragon fears nothing, not even death. This is a very important and iconic line from KralkatorrikWasn't this just a line from the magical madness that consumed Kralkatorrik's actual self?

Why's this important? "You made dragon know fear..". The entire Personal Story is retconnned by this statementHow so? The only mentions of a dragon being afraid was in Trahearne's speeches. Those hardly qualify as proof that Zhaitan actually was afraid.Just because the dragons
now
know fear, doesn't mean they knew
back then
.I don't see the retcon there.

That particular line came from the Largos.

But we still have no proof that statement reflected reality.It still seems more like it was an assumption her part.

Agreed. It was an assumption. I see no reason to resort to calling anything a "retcon".

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I don't think an alliance with Jormag is sustainable. Look at all the Vigil Relief Soldiers listening to Jormag and, seemingly, dying of exposure to the frost. How can we possibly entertain the idea of allying with an Elder Dragon who, irrespective of it's intentions, only seems to kill things that get too close to it? By the time we're finished readying the troops to fight the other Elders there won't be any left to muster!

If you want advice about Jormag, go speak to the elephant in the room: Rytlock. He recognised the dragon's voice. I believe he's heard it long before all of this guffaw. Let him say his piece, then we'll tear Jormag's throat out.

I bet all this concern about the end of the world, should we kill all of the dragons, is just nonsense. Heck, for all we know one of the remaining dragons - perhaps Jormag itself, or even Bubbles - is so powerful that it has subtly influenced our minds into accepting this possibility as fact, when no proof has ever been presented, only theory by in-game NPCs.

Just kill Jormag and be done with it. Then quit your moaning.

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@Stephen.6312 said:I don't think an alliance with Jormag is sustainable. Look at all the Vigil Relief Soldiers listening to Jormag and, seemingly, dying of exposure to the frost. How can we possibly entertain the idea of allying with an Elder Dragon who, irrespective of it's intentions, only seems to kill things that get too close to it? By the time we're finished readying the troops to fight the other Elders there won't be any left to muster!

If you want advice about Jormag, go speak to the elephant in the room: Rytlock. He recognised the dragon's voice. I believe he's heard it long before all of this guffaw. Let him say his piece, then we'll tear Jormag's throat out.

I bet all this concern about the end of the world, should we kill all of the dragons, is just nonsense. Heck, for all we know one of the remaining dragons - perhaps Jormag itself, or even Bubbles - is so powerful that it has subtly influenced our minds into accepting this possibility as fact, when no proof has ever been presented, only theory by in-game NPCs.

Just kill Jormag and be done with it. Then quit your moaning.

Taimi studied and confirmed that killing another ED would destroy Tyria, though your theory would be really cool, the lore s8mply says it’s not possible

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