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Weapon set balance


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This is kind of a critique about the direction that weaponsets have gone in, and I mention a couple of other things too, like thematics. It may have been more appropriate for the pvp forum, or even the warrior forum, couldn't decide. but it applies to pve as well, so...

Is anyone else disappointed with all these increasingly fast attacking, cc spamming, low risk, high reward weaponsets that keep coming out? The only high risk, moderate/high reward weapons i can think of are: reaper greatsword, hammer warrior, hammer guard, hammer rev... that's pretty much it... lol. Take spellbreakers for example... what a wasted opportunity. Anet once again missed the opportunity to put player two handed axes in the game, with berserker, now with spellbreaker. They would have fit so well with either spec's theme,and make a slow, hugely telegraphed, yet satisfying to land high risk, moderate reward weaponset, but instead choose to trivialize warriors by turning them into an untelegraphed, dagger-wielding, daze spamming, floaty, prancy sissy-class. Thanks Anet, but we don't need another fast attacking no telegraph no risk, high reward cc spamming weaponset. We didn't need a "warr-thief-ior" with adrenal health, 3.4k armor, regen, healing signet, all the while dazespamming, with a 1/4th second attacks.

Every time I die to a spellbreaker i think "Christ... what a dorky, one sided. PVE-ish weaponset to die to. So un-warrior like that it's not even funny, and yet another weaponset/specialization with 0 telegraph, that is fun to use for the spellbreaker, yet 0 fun to play against for the opponent."

sigh

Spellbreakers remind me of what would happen when a caster-biased developer tries to make an anti-magic class.

Here's how they could have been designed;First off, daggers are only appropriate on a warrior if he uses them to clean his teeth; ditch them. Give the class a two handed axe. Second off, on the theme rather than the weapon;Primitive desert cavemen who don't believe in magic, and can prevent it's use, and can't use boons AT ALL. (making them naturally less overpowered by default) Instead, when all is said and done, spellbreakers use more boons than alot of other classes do... does that strike anyone else, thematically, as stupid as hell concept?

It's like the same person who thought up thief dazespam, and made stability into a boon, rather than an upkeep, created this asinine weaponset.

Anyway moving on to mechanics

For two handed axes for spellbreakers, mechanic-wise, if they wanted to go a minimalist route, they simply could have copied, and modified Legendary Axemaster Hareth, with audio telegraphs in a similar fasion to that boss mob, Anet could have probably copied the models, and animations, similar moveset etc.(they had the male norn/human already with Hareth they could have modified) For example when Hareth started up his "I'LL GIVE YOU A THOUSAND CHOICES" (I'm sure that's not what he said, but... lol) and the spellbreaker would have had a similar move to where when he started the axe cyclone, any NON-projectile ranged/melee attack (wells, condi ranged etc,) would be transferred back to the caster, during the whirlwind duration. The "may the jungle swallow you" move would have also been neat to include a similar one. Given that it has been demonstrated that Anet has the imagination for this sort of thing, with mobs like Hareth, why don't they utilize it more often in other aspects of the game, like player classes. They could have even tied in Hareth with the class somehow, giving it a kind of dark theme possibly.

As far as CC goes, instead of this spammy untelegraphed daze BS, you could have had the warrior hold out his axe in a boar's tooth stance, and start to charge, gaining progressively more stab each 1/2 second while charging, and a faster charge untill the move was cancelled, the move would be hard to steer while the warrior charges, but you could lean left, or right with it a bit, and it would knockback, or knockdown foes. Think of a terragriph in silverwastes. or the mordrem mount charge. Why isn't there more gritty barbaric-themed weapons in this game that feels satifying when you land the slow as hell hard to land attack?

Anyway, high telegraph/high risk weaponsets could have been for the other classes too, such as weaver. Once again Anet, we don't need more evade while attacking gimmick moves on weaponsets; this game BADLY needs the exact opposite.

Other high risk weaponsets could have included the huge street fighter esque channeled fireballs etc, similar to the rev axe temporal rift move. That temporal rift move was a really great design.

Anyway any of this would have been better than more fast attacking, no telegraph low cooldown spammy weapons. I just don't get why given that an entire format was supposed to revolve around reading your opponent, much of the time there's nothing there to read, nevermind the idea that even in PVE so many fast spammy weapons being overrepresented is just... generic. Anyway that's pretty much the end of my rant.

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Your mistake is playing a game for PvP with combat so clearly designed with PvE in mind. If Anet was serious about their PvP, they'd be using longer TTKs, more readable casting effects, and an average cast time of at least 1 second. Or, basically, it would be an entirely different game.

GW2 PvP has always been a spamfest with 300% as many attacks as ways to effectively mitigate them because this design is fun and engaging in PvE, where incoming attacks obey those rules so you're the faster, weaker combatant against one or multiple slower, stronger combatants. Flip that around in PvE and its a less exciting and actiony feeling game. That's why you notice the moment any really effective tool is introduced that lets you break out of the "kill the other guy in my first ten casts to avoid having to actually fight" meta. because the combat system is at its core poorly designed for PvP in the first place. That's why their big esports tournament push failed. Pro level players found it to be a confusing and hard to read mess, entry level players find that its fast rate and confusing tells place the skill floor too high to get their feet wet, and spectators have a really hard time tellingwhat's going on due to all of that.

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@PopeUrban.2578 said:Your mistake is playing a game for PvP with combat so clearly designed with PvE in mind. If Anet was serious about their PvP, they'd be using longer TTKs, more readable casting effects, and an average cast time of at least 1 second. Or, basically, it would be an entirely different game.

GW2 PvP has always been a spamfest with 300% as many attacks as ways to effectively mitigate them because this design is fun and engaging in PvE, where incoming attacks obey those rules so you're the faster, weaker combatant against one or multiple slower, stronger combatants. Flip that around in PvE and its a less exciting and actiony feeling game. That's why you notice the moment any really effective tool is introduced that lets you break out of the "kill the other guy in my first ten casts to avoid having to actually fight" meta. because the combat system is at its core poorly designed for PvP in the first place. That's why their big esports tournament push failed. Pro level players found it to be a confusing and hard to read mess, entry level players find that its fast rate and confusing tells place the skill floor too high to get their feet wet, and spectators have a really hard time tellingwhat's going on due to all of that.

Thanks for the input, never the less, I honestly still don't see what's up with all the increasingly 1/4 second attack cc spam weaponsets pve/pvp perspective or otherwise, and if you'll look at other games, neither do other developers. Spellbreaker was the perfect opportunity to introduce something akin to the Kurok pillar in Vindictus (a mostly pve game, if it had an open word as big as gw2's that's where i'd be) With names like berserker/spellbreaker etc, anet could have used some basic rpg class logic, given that GW2 has hardly shed any mmorpg traditions in the first place. and introduce things like war mauls, tree trunk clubs, 2 handed axes etc in the game, all with powerful but hugely telegraphed high risk/hard to land attacks. the theme of the spellbreaker is using shards of a broken spear... why not use the ACTUAL spear to spice things up, they have the animations for it. So given that, for example a d/d setup for warriors was an inappropriate copout imo; over saturating the spammy weaponsets even more.

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I mean there's lots to comment on but i'll hone in on a single point.

@Accountzeroone.7291 said:First off, daggers are only appropriate on a warrior if he uses them to clean his teeth; ditch them. Give the class a two handed axe. Second off, on the theme rather than the weapon;Primitive desert cavemen who don't believe in magic, and can prevent it's use, and can't use boons AT ALL. (making them naturally less overpowered by default) Instead, when all is said and done, spellbreakers use more boons than alot of other classes do... does that strike anyone else, thematically, as stupid as hell concept?

You clearly don't pay attention to any aspect of lore if your issue with the theme is the "primitive desert cavemen who don't believe in magic", considering literally everything in nightfall (especially paragons and dervishes) and path of fire (all the kings and queens in the tomb of primeval kings? Palawa Joko? Others I can't think of). And daggers on a warrior work really well with the theme and lore of this elite spec, though that is subjective i guess.

As for spellbreakers using, ahem, "more boons than a lot of other classes do". The spellbreaker elite spec makes use of three conditions, might on the third dagger autoattack chain, resistance on featherfoot grace (which is super thematic considering spellbreakers would definitely be resistant to enemy spell effects), and protection on a trait that specifically only works with full counter. All in all, nowhere near "more boons than a lot of other classes", especially considering herald, engineer, guardian, mesmer, ranger and hey that's already more than half. That's not even including effects, with aura spreading tempests, grace of the land, thief sharing venoms, a couple of renegade skills, firebrand, chronomancer and alacrity and others I can't even think of.

Don't know much about the rest you're talking about, but these right here show a failure to understand the lore and the gamespace you're working with.

EDIT: also consider the spellbreaker heal removes boons as well as conditions.

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I know you're just being pedantic about their heal, but its a really, really powerful heal skill nonetheless. Yea, you lose 7 boons, but you also cleanse 7 condis, one of the strongest burst condi clears in the entire game, and its by far the highest base heal in the game at over 11k base healing. And it can also max your attackers insight buff to boot when removing boons.

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