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It's time protection affected conditions


Hot Boy.7138

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For a long time, the damage per second gap of power builds vs condi builds has shrunk. Condition damage builds often eclipse power builds when it comes to damage. The scale shifts slightly one way or the other depends on who is playing and their specific build, but one thing for sure is that condition builds can burst pretty kitten hard. It's time that protection also affection conditions. The initial reasoning to make protection only apply to direct damage isn't valid, and hasn't been in a while, with the current state of the game.

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Condi thief fell out of the meta (was it ever even in it?)

Fire weaver is probably about to get nerfed partially because it vomits out a lot of condis, partially because people somehow fail to kite an ele with a single gap closer.

Everything is probably about to get nerfed

Sage firebrand is a thing that is also probably about to get nerfed

Insofar as I've been able to gather, the majority of builds in the meta are power based, with condi having a few niche-ish things - fire weaver and sagebrand, notably. Mirage is around more because of unbelievably stupid mechanical design rather than condis, but I think it'd be fair to include it.

Doesn't seem like a good idea to add condi dmg to prot - for now. It would make things easier to balance in the long run and I'm all for it eventually, but condi damage would require some mildly sweeping changes for things to not immediately go back to being 99% power builds in the meta + that one token condi build everyone is going to hate and complain about despite it being p much the only one around.

Can you back this up at all? We seem to have a relatively even split right now, tilted slightly in favor of power.

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@Curennos.9307 said:Fire weaver is probably about to get nerfed partially because it vomits out a lot of condis, partially because people somehow fail to kite an ele with a single gap closer.

Why do you think condition damage with weaver is the problem? They wouldn't even be able to do that much without the easy avoidance they get from Twist of Fate combined with everything else, Stability being more than enough they shouldn't be having 2 uses of ToF back to back. You can't lock down a Weaver at all unlike EVERYTHING else in this game and that's the biggest problem with the build, the damage is easily avoided otherwise.

Weaver is one of the most lazy build to play out there, at least the meta one, so on. Friends of mine are trying to bring new ideas to the table which they somewhat succeed but the offender still stands out which is why it needs to be reworked.

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How about instead of using an arenanet-approved, "Slap a bandaid on the severed artery" thought process, why not just give conditions an actual purpose in the game? You can't have two untyped damage sources running around, constantly competing with each other; that's just going to invalidate one or the other based on the whim of any given patch note release. It's the reason why, prior to the condition stack change, conditions were WORTHLESS in every mode (particularly in PvE but even in PvP, the only one that was remotely viable was a Necromancer build, and even that was trash); and it's also the reason why after the condition patch, we saw some condition builds randomly and utterly supplant power stats on certain classes. There is no justification for either type reigning over the other: one has to go.

So, instead of complaining about the fact that the one thing that can maybe kill a super passive, one-shot Mesmer boi is if said boi gets clipped by a billion condis at once by another player pressing around 3 buttons, why not just suggest that conditions get what they deserve: their damage gutted, their proliferated presence vastly culled, and their purpose retooled into one intended for set-up triggers (i.e. "[THIS SKILL] deals [bONUS1]/gets you [bONUS2] if you strike a foe that is suffering from [CONDITION]")?

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What if the armor penetration mechanic balanced around higher sustained damage at the expense of being unable to properly crit as well as being able to be retroactively negated by cleanses, resistance and invulnerability as well as affording time to just heal through it didn't have higher sustained damage and didn't penetrate armor? Brilliant!

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@"Swagg.9236" said:How about instead of using an arenanet-approved, "Slap a bandaid on the severed artery" thought process, why not just give conditions an actual purpose in the game? You can't have two untyped damage sources running around, constantly competing with each other; that's just going to invalidate one or the other based on the whim of any given patch note release. It's the reason why, prior to the condition stack change, conditions were WORTHLESS in every mode (particularly in PvE but even in PvP, the only one that was remotely viable was a Necromancer build, and even that was trash); and it's also the reason why after the condition patch, we saw some condition builds randomly and utterly supplant power stats on certain classes. There is no justification for either type reigning over the other: one has to go.

So, instead of complaining about the fact that the one thing that can maybe kill a super passive, one-shot Mesmer boi is if said boi gets clipped by a billion condis at once by another player pressing around 3 buttons, why not just suggest that conditions get what they deserve: their damage gutted, their proliferated presence vastly culled, and their purpose retooled into one intended for set-up triggers (i.e. "[THIS SKILL] deals [bONUS1]/gets you [bONUS2] if you strike a foe that is suffering from [CONDITION]")?

Finally someone gets it!!!! Conditions should not be a core method of dealing damage but should function as utility or supplementary damage. This is something guild wars 1 got very right.You could run degen builds but they were not just spam endless conditions and win. There was much more nuance to it.

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@Psykewne.3025 said:

@"Swagg.9236" said:How about instead of using an arenanet-approved, "Slap a bandaid on the severed artery" thought process, why not just give conditions an actual purpose in the game? You can't have two untyped damage sources running around, constantly competing with each other; that's just going to invalidate one or the other based on the whim of any given patch note release. It's the reason why, prior to the condition stack change, conditions were WORTHLESS in every mode (particularly in PvE but even in PvP, the only one that was remotely viable was a Necromancer build, and even that was trash); and it's also the reason why after the condition patch, we saw some condition builds randomly and utterly supplant power stats on certain classes. There is no justification for either type reigning over the other: one has to go.

So, instead of complaining about the fact that the one thing that can maybe kill a super passive, one-shot Mesmer boi is if said boi gets clipped by a billion condis at once by another player pressing around 3 buttons, why not just suggest that conditions get what they deserve: their damage gutted, their proliferated presence vastly culled, and their purpose retooled into one intended for set-up triggers (i.e. "
[THIS SKILL] deals [bONUS1]/gets you [bONUS2] if you strike a foe that is suffering from [CONDITION]
")?

Finally someone gets it!!!! Conditions should not be a core method of dealing damage but should function as utility or supplementary damage. This is something guild wars 1 got very right.You could run degen builds but they were not just spam endless conditions and win. There was much more nuance to it.

Why ? different game.

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@"Swagg.9236" said:How about instead of using an arenanet-approved, "Slap a bandaid on the severed artery" thought process, why not just give conditions an actual purpose in the game? You can't have two untyped damage sources running around, constantly competing with each other; that's just going to invalidate one or the other based on the whim of any given patch note release. It's the reason why, prior to the condition stack change, conditions were WORTHLESS in every mode (particularly in PvE but even in PvP, the only one that was remotely viable was a Necromancer build, and even that was trash); and it's also the reason why after the condition patch, we saw some condition builds randomly and utterly supplant power stats on certain classes. There is no justification for either type reigning over the other: one has to go.

So, instead of complaining about the fact that the one thing that can maybe kill a super passive, one-shot Mesmer boi is if said boi gets clipped by a billion condis at once by another player pressing around 3 buttons, why not just suggest that conditions get what they deserve: their damage gutted, their proliferated presence vastly culled, and their purpose retooled into one intended for set-up triggers (i.e. "
[THIS SKILL] deals [bONUS1]/gets you [bONUS2] if you strike a foe that is suffering from [CONDITION]
")?

Finally someone gets it!!!! Conditions should not be a core method of dealing damage but should function as utility or supplementary damage. This is something guild wars 1 got very right.You could run degen builds but they were not just spam endless conditions and win. There was much more nuance to it.

Why ? different game.

Because right now what a condition is so muddied. You have damage, control, heal reduction, situational damage and blind effects that all have to be balanced against condition removal.

The result of this arms race has been classes that can actually use conditions for damage must produce massive stacks of multiple conditions in seconds to generate burst before their conditions are removed. This effectively means they end up with similar time to kill as power specs but if they go uncleansed they do even more damage.

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@Psykewne.3025 said:

@"Swagg.9236" said:How about instead of using an arenanet-approved, "Slap a bandaid on the severed artery" thought process, why not just give conditions an actual purpose in the game? You can't have two untyped damage sources running around, constantly competing with each other; that's just going to invalidate one or the other based on the whim of any given patch note release. It's the reason why, prior to the condition stack change, conditions were WORTHLESS in every mode (particularly in PvE but even in PvP, the only one that was remotely viable was a Necromancer build, and even that was trash); and it's also the reason why after the condition patch, we saw some condition builds randomly and utterly supplant power stats on certain classes. There is no justification for either type reigning over the other: one has to go.

So, instead of complaining about the fact that the one thing that can maybe kill a super passive, one-shot Mesmer boi is if said boi gets clipped by a billion condis at once by another player pressing around 3 buttons, why not just suggest that conditions get what they deserve: their damage gutted, their proliferated presence vastly culled, and their purpose retooled into one intended for set-up triggers (i.e. "
[THIS SKILL] deals [bONUS1]/gets you [bONUS2] if you strike a foe that is suffering from [CONDITION]
")?

Finally someone gets it!!!! Conditions should not be a core method of dealing damage but should function as utility or supplementary damage. This is something guild wars 1 got very right.You could run degen builds but they were not just spam endless conditions and win. There was much more nuance to it.

Why ? different game.

Because right now what a condition is so muddied. You have damage, control, heal reduction, situational damage and blind effects that all have to be balanced against condition removal.

The result of this arms race has been classes that can actually use conditions for damage must produce massive stacks of multiple conditions in seconds to generate burst before their conditions are removed. This effectively means they end up with similar time to kill as power specs but if they go uncleansed they do even more damage.

they dont have similar TTK. not even close.this "condi bursting" is landing usually 4+ abilities and dying in 2s.power burst kills you in 0,2s.

For example condi burst on Cmirage is p4->p5->scepter 3 while evading ( clone does ambush ) -> jaunt->f1+f2thats 7 abilities to " burst you " in about 4s.power build like ranger will kill you with knockback + rapidfire in 1,5-2s with 2 abilities.

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@Hot Boy.7138 said:For a long time, the damage per second gap of power builds vs condi builds has shrunk. Condition damage builds often eclipse power builds when it comes to damage. The scale shifts slightly one way or the other depends on who is playing and their specific build, but one thing for sure is that condition builds can burst pretty kitten hard. It's time that protection also affection conditions. The initial reasoning to make protection only apply to direct damage isn't valid, and hasn't been in a while, with the current state of the game.

I am for toughness reducing condi dmg

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@"Swagg.9236" said:How about instead of using an arenanet-approved, "Slap a bandaid on the severed artery" thought process, why not just give conditions an actual purpose in the game? You can't have two untyped damage sources running around, constantly competing with each other; that's just going to invalidate one or the other based on the whim of any given patch note release. It's the reason why, prior to the condition stack change, conditions were WORTHLESS in every mode (particularly in PvE but even in PvP, the only one that was remotely viable was a Necromancer build, and even that was trash); and it's also the reason why after the condition patch, we saw some condition builds randomly and utterly supplant power stats on certain classes. There is no justification for either type reigning over the other: one has to go.

So, instead of complaining about the fact that the one thing that can maybe kill a super passive, one-shot Mesmer boi is if said boi gets clipped by a billion condis at once by another player pressing around 3 buttons, why not just suggest that conditions get what they deserve: their damage gutted, their proliferated presence vastly culled, and their purpose retooled into one intended for set-up triggers (i.e. "
[THIS SKILL] deals [bONUS1]/gets you [bONUS2] if you strike a foe that is suffering from [CONDITION]
")?

Finally someone gets it!!!! Conditions should not be a core method of dealing damage but should function as utility or supplementary damage. This is something guild wars 1 got very right.You could run degen builds but they were not just spam endless conditions and win. There was much more nuance to it.

Why ? different game.

Because right now what a condition is so muddied. You have damage, control, heal reduction, situational damage and blind effects that all have to be balanced against condition removal.

The result of this arms race has been classes that can actually use conditions for damage must produce massive stacks of multiple conditions in seconds to generate burst before their conditions are removed. This effectively means they end up with similar time to kill as power specs but if they go uncleansed they do even more damage.

they dont have similar TTK. not even close.this "condi bursting" is landing usually 4+ abilities and dying in 2s.power burst kills you in 0,2s.

For example condi burst on Cmirage is p4->p5->scepter 3 while evading ( clone does ambush ) -> jaunt->f1+f2thats 7 abilities to " burst you " in about 4s.power build like ranger will kill you with knockback + rapidfire in 1,5-2s with 2 abilities.

Yes but I’m talking about conditions in general for balancing and not any particular current build. Most condi based builds have been nerfed down again right now and power builds with lots daze and stuns are running rampant again.

But every time a condi build rises to prominence it starts to reach very low ttk.

Also the difference between. 2 and 4 seconds is basically nothing in terms of being able to kill when most condi builds that have been dominant end up with ridiculous evade or control effects on top that they can use WHILE Doing full damage or even as core parts of their burst.

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@Hot Boy.7138 said:For a long time, the damage per second gap of power builds vs condi builds has shrunk. Condition damage builds often eclipse power builds when it comes to damage. The scale shifts slightly one way or the other depends on who is playing and their specific build, but one thing for sure is that condition builds can burst pretty kitten hard. It's time that protection also affection conditions. The initial reasoning to make protection only apply to direct damage isn't valid, and hasn't been in a while, with the current state of the game.

sure, make cleansing remove recent power damage taken, and make resistance give immunity to power damage.:D

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@Psykewne.3025 said:

@"Swagg.9236" said:How about instead of using an arenanet-approved, "Slap a bandaid on the severed artery" thought process, why not just give conditions an actual purpose in the game? You can't have two untyped damage sources running around, constantly competing with each other; that's just going to invalidate one or the other based on the whim of any given patch note release. It's the reason why, prior to the condition stack change, conditions were WORTHLESS in every mode (particularly in PvE but even in PvP, the only one that was remotely viable was a Necromancer build, and even that was trash); and it's also the reason why after the condition patch, we saw some condition builds randomly and utterly supplant power stats on certain classes. There is no justification for either type reigning over the other: one has to go.

So, instead of complaining about the fact that the one thing that can maybe kill a super passive, one-shot Mesmer boi is if said boi gets clipped by a billion condis at once by another player pressing around 3 buttons, why not just suggest that conditions get what they deserve: their damage gutted, their proliferated presence vastly culled, and their purpose retooled into one intended for set-up triggers (i.e. "
[THIS SKILL] deals [bONUS1]/gets you [bONUS2] if you strike a foe that is suffering from [CONDITION]
")?

Finally someone gets it!!!! Conditions should not be a core method of dealing damage but should function as utility or supplementary damage. This is something guild wars 1 got very right.You could run degen builds but they were not just spam endless conditions and win. There was much more nuance to it.

Why ? different game.

Because right now what a condition is so muddied. You have damage, control, heal reduction, situational damage and blind effects that all have to be balanced against condition removal.

The result of this arms race has been classes that can actually use conditions for damage must produce massive stacks of multiple conditions in seconds to generate burst before their conditions are removed. This effectively means they end up with similar time to kill as power specs but if they go uncleansed they do even more damage.

they dont have similar TTK. not even close.this "condi bursting" is landing usually 4+ abilities and dying in 2s.power burst kills you in 0,2s.

For example condi burst on Cmirage is p4->p5->scepter 3 while evading ( clone does ambush ) -> jaunt->f1+f2thats 7 abilities to " burst you " in about 4s.power build like ranger will kill you with knockback + rapidfire in 1,5-2s with 2 abilities.

Yes but I’m talking about conditions in general for balancing and not any particular current build. Most condi based builds have been nerfed down again right now and power builds with lots daze and stuns are running rampant again.

But every time a condi build rises to prominence it starts to reach very low ttk.

Also the difference between. 2 and 4 seconds is basically nothing in terms of being able to kill when most condi builds that have been dominant end up with ridiculous evade or control effects on top that they can use WHILE Doing full damage or even as core parts of their burst.

I will give you relistic example.Ranger knocks you down and rapidfires you, by the time you stunremove and evade you lose 1/3 hp.Ranger traded 2 cooldowns, for your 1 cooldown, dodge and 1/3 of your hp.

Now I do my condi burst, after 1s you cleanse. I lose 7 cooldowns, you lose 1/3 hp and 1 cleanse. the end.

see whats better?Difference between 2 sec and 4s is IMMENSE.Expecially with condi, if you cleanse it all goes poof and no more damage.What insane condi builds CC? If anything power builds have MORE CC then condi builds.

Condi builds.Core necro. -> lots of fears but they get cleansed, it only gets unhealthy when you have stab. in the end its not too much. 2x hard CC + cripple + potential corrupt boon fear.C mirage -> depending on build its p5 stun, couple of cripples, and 1-3 dazes + slow. iits not much at all. 2-4 hard CC + criple and slow.Fire weaver ( it still deals alright power dmg due to 25 might )

Then we have power builds, whoopie.S/P thief -> daze on f1, s3 spam that stuns + HS short daze for interrupts. More then condi buildsD/S+GS SPB -> D2-> slow, D3-> daze/stun. Any burst-> tether=pull. BCharge=knockdow, s4=stun.rampage= 3x hard cc. f2=daze.GS=cripple.+ potential stomp for konockdow. Thats more CC then 2 condi builds combined tbh. 8/9 hard CC + slow and crippleHolo -> Rifle immob. Rifle knockdow. Holo 5 knockdow.PLB knockdow. 3x hard CC + immob.

As you can see most power builds have MUCH more CC then condi builds.

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@"Swagg.9236" said:How about instead of using an arenanet-approved, "Slap a bandaid on the severed artery" thought process, why not just give conditions an actual purpose in the game? You can't have two untyped damage sources running around, constantly competing with each other; that's just going to invalidate one or the other based on the whim of any given patch note release. It's the reason why, prior to the condition stack change, conditions were WORTHLESS in every mode (particularly in PvE but even in PvP, the only one that was remotely viable was a Necromancer build, and even that was trash); and it's also the reason why after the condition patch, we saw some condition builds randomly and utterly supplant power stats on certain classes. There is no justification for either type reigning over the other: one has to go.

So, instead of complaining about the fact that the one thing that can maybe kill a super passive, one-shot Mesmer boi is if said boi gets clipped by a billion condis at once by another player pressing around 3 buttons, why not just suggest that conditions get what they deserve: their damage gutted, their proliferated presence vastly culled, and their purpose retooled into one intended for set-up triggers (i.e. "
[THIS SKILL] deals [bONUS1]/gets you [bONUS2] if you strike a foe that is suffering from [CONDITION]
")?

Finally someone gets it!!!! Conditions should not be a core method of dealing damage but should function as utility or supplementary damage. This is something guild wars 1 got very right.You could run degen builds but they were not just spam endless conditions and win. There was much more nuance to it.

Why ? different game.

Because right now what a condition is so muddied. You have damage, control, heal reduction, situational damage and blind effects that all have to be balanced against condition removal.

The result of this arms race has been classes that can actually use conditions for damage must produce massive stacks of multiple conditions in seconds to generate burst before their conditions are removed. This effectively means they end up with similar time to kill as power specs but if they go uncleansed they do even more damage.

they dont have similar TTK. not even close.this "condi bursting" is landing usually 4+ abilities and dying in 2s.power burst kills you in 0,2s.

For example condi burst on Cmirage is p4->p5->scepter 3 while evading ( clone does ambush ) -> jaunt->f1+f2thats 7 abilities to " burst you " in about 4s.power build like ranger will kill you with knockback + rapidfire in 1,5-2s with 2 abilities.

Yes but I’m talking about conditions in general for balancing and not any particular current build. Most condi based builds have been nerfed down again right now and power builds with lots daze and stuns are running rampant again.

But every time a condi build rises to prominence it starts to reach very low ttk.

Also the difference between. 2 and 4 seconds is basically nothing in terms of being able to kill when most condi builds that have been dominant end up with ridiculous evade or control effects on top that they can use WHILE Doing full damage or even as core parts of their burst.

I will give you relistic example.Ranger knocks you down and rapidfires you, by the time you stunremove and evade you lose 1/3 hp.Ranger traded 2 cooldowns, for your 1 cooldown, dodge and 1/3 of your hp.

Now I do my condi burst, after 1s you cleanse. I lose 7 cooldowns, you lose 1/3 hp and 1 cleanse. the end.

see whats better?Difference between 2 sec and 4s is IMMENSE.Expecially with condi, if you cleanse it all goes poof and no more damage.What insane condi builds CC? If anything power builds have MORE CC then condi builds.

Condi builds.Core necro. -> lots of fears but they get cleansed, it only gets unhealthy when you have stab. in the end its not too much. 2x hard CC + cripple + potential corrupt boon fear.C mirage -> depending on build its p5 stun, couple of cripples, and 1-3 dazes + slow. iits not much at all. 2-4 hard CC + criple and slow.Fire weaver ( it still deals alright power dmg due to 25 might )

Then we have power builds, whoopie.S/P thief -> daze on f1, s3 spam that stuns + HS short daze for interrupts. More then condi buildsD/S+GS SPB -> D2-> slow, D3-> daze/stun. Any burst-> tether=pull. BCharge=knockdow, s4=stun.rampage= 3x hard cc. f2=daze.GS=cripple.+ potential stomp for konockdow. Thats more CC then 2 condi builds combined tbh. 8/9 hard CC + slow and crippleHolo -> Rifle immob. Rifle knockdow. Holo 5 knockdow.PLB knockdow. 3x hard CC + immob.

As you can see most power builds have MUCH more CC then condi builds.

That’s not how condi cleanse works. And I never said power builds were any better but this thread is about condi.

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@"Swagg.9236" said:How about instead of using an arenanet-approved, "Slap a bandaid on the severed artery" thought process, why not just give conditions an actual purpose in the game? You can't have two untyped damage sources running around, constantly competing with each other; that's just going to invalidate one or the other based on the whim of any given patch note release. It's the reason why, prior to the condition stack change, conditions were WORTHLESS in every mode (particularly in PvE but even in PvP, the only one that was remotely viable was a Necromancer build, and even that was trash); and it's also the reason why after the condition patch, we saw some condition builds randomly and utterly supplant power stats on certain classes. There is no justification for either type reigning over the other: one has to go.

So, instead of complaining about the fact that the one thing that can maybe kill a super passive, one-shot Mesmer boi is if said boi gets clipped by a billion condis at once by another player pressing around 3 buttons, why not just suggest that conditions get what they deserve: their damage gutted, their proliferated presence vastly culled, and their purpose retooled into one intended for set-up triggers (i.e. "
[THIS SKILL] deals [bONUS1]/gets you [bONUS2] if you strike a foe that is suffering from [CONDITION]
")?

Finally someone gets it!!!! Conditions should not be a core method of dealing damage but should function as utility or supplementary damage. This is something guild wars 1 got very right.You could run degen builds but they were not just spam endless conditions and win. There was much more nuance to it.

Why ? different game.

Because right now what a condition is so muddied. You have damage, control, heal reduction, situational damage and blind effects that all have to be balanced against condition removal.

The result of this arms race has been classes that can actually use conditions for damage must produce massive stacks of multiple conditions in seconds to generate burst before their conditions are removed. This effectively means they end up with similar time to kill as power specs but if they go uncleansed they do even more damage.

they dont have similar TTK. not even close.this "condi bursting" is landing usually 4+ abilities and dying in 2s.power burst kills you in 0,2s.

For example condi burst on Cmirage is p4->p5->scepter 3 while evading ( clone does ambush ) -> jaunt->f1+f2thats 7 abilities to " burst you " in about 4s.power build like ranger will kill you with knockback + rapidfire in 1,5-2s with 2 abilities.

Yes but I’m talking about conditions in general for balancing and not any particular current build. Most condi based builds have been nerfed down again right now and power builds with lots daze and stuns are running rampant again.

But every time a condi build rises to prominence it starts to reach very low ttk.

Also the difference between. 2 and 4 seconds is basically nothing in terms of being able to kill when most condi builds that have been dominant end up with ridiculous evade or control effects on top that they can use WHILE Doing full damage or even as core parts of their burst.

I will give you relistic example.Ranger knocks you down and rapidfires you, by the time you stunremove and evade you lose 1/3 hp.Ranger traded 2 cooldowns, for your 1 cooldown, dodge and 1/3 of your hp.

Now I do my condi burst, after 1s you cleanse. I lose 7 cooldowns, you lose 1/3 hp and 1 cleanse. the end.

see whats better?Difference between 2 sec and 4s is IMMENSE.Expecially with condi, if you cleanse it all goes poof and no more damage.What insane condi builds CC? If anything power builds have MORE CC then condi builds.

Condi builds.Core necro. -> lots of fears but they get cleansed, it only gets unhealthy when you have stab. in the end its not too much. 2x hard CC + cripple + potential corrupt boon fear.C mirage -> depending on build its p5 stun, couple of cripples, and 1-3 dazes + slow. iits not much at all. 2-4 hard CC + criple and slow.Fire weaver ( it still deals alright power dmg due to 25 might )

Then we have power builds, whoopie.S/P thief -> daze on f1, s3 spam that stuns + HS short daze for interrupts. More then condi buildsD/S+GS SPB -> D2-> slow, D3-> daze/stun. Any burst-> tether=pull. BCharge=knockdow, s4=stun.rampage= 3x hard cc. f2=daze.GS=cripple.+ potential stomp for konockdow. Thats more CC then 2 condi builds combined tbh. 8/9 hard CC + slow and crippleHolo -> Rifle immob. Rifle knockdow. Holo 5 knockdow.PLB knockdow. 3x hard CC + immob.

As you can see most power builds have MUCH more CC then condi builds.

Condi builds don't usually need CC though. Their "burst" is either multi-hit or AoE and most often ranged. The reason power builds need CC is because their burst are highly telegraphed and easily evaded or interrupted but you picked probably the most problematic burst combo as an example. What you leave out of your argument is condi builds can apply this slightly less bursty pressure while not having to sacrifice leaving them selves open. It doesn't matter if something like mirage or weaver can't burst you as fast as ranger by a couple seconds (and weaver totally can) because they don't allow you to fight back. With ranger, once I stun break their knockback I can immediately start counter pressuring. With mirage I cannot because they will be invuln while applying confusion and torment, both conditions that punish you for retaliating against them. Then they will blink/jaunt/ect until their big burst is off CD all while spattering you with more condi and interrupts. You make it sound like condi mirage and fire weaver is a 1-and-done but it's far from it. The number of condi they can apply WHILE playing defensively is stupid.

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@Psykewne.3025 said:

@"Swagg.9236" said:How about instead of using an arenanet-approved, "Slap a bandaid on the severed artery" thought process, why not just give conditions an actual purpose in the game? You can't have two untyped damage sources running around, constantly competing with each other; that's just going to invalidate one or the other based on the whim of any given patch note release. It's the reason why, prior to the condition stack change, conditions were WORTHLESS in every mode (particularly in PvE but even in PvP, the only one that was remotely viable was a Necromancer build, and even that was trash); and it's also the reason why after the condition patch, we saw some condition builds randomly and utterly supplant power stats on certain classes. There is no justification for either type reigning over the other: one has to go.

So, instead of complaining about the fact that the one thing that can maybe kill a super passive, one-shot Mesmer boi is if said boi gets clipped by a billion condis at once by another player pressing around 3 buttons, why not just suggest that conditions get what they deserve: their damage gutted, their proliferated presence vastly culled, and their purpose retooled into one intended for set-up triggers (i.e. "
[THIS SKILL] deals [bONUS1]/gets you [bONUS2] if you strike a foe that is suffering from [CONDITION]
")?

Finally someone gets it!!!! Conditions should not be a core method of dealing damage but should function as utility or supplementary damage. This is something guild wars 1 got very right.You could run degen builds but they were not just spam endless conditions and win. There was much more nuance to it.

While degen was a valuable source of team-based, DPS "pressure" in PvP, the best thing about conditions in GW1 was the fact that they, more often than not, were used as triggers for conditional bonuses in certain skills (i.e. Discord). To that end, conditions purpose in GW1, if you weren't playing a Ranger (which was generally the only profession which could reliably and consistently apply 2-3 conditions to a single target without completely ruining their build), were opportunity cost, which is something that GW2 SORELY lacks. Everyone just takes the same sort of build in GW2: teleports, damage negation (protracted evade/invuln/block), instant damage, and/or ranged damage with no real travel time. GW1 was a team game with many niches forming a balanced frontline, linebacker corps, and a backline. GW2 is just 5 generic dudes running one of two, homogenized playstyles, looking to gang up on a random opponent who just isn't near any teammates. The skill ceiling dips drastically, and the purpose of having any given profession in the game sort of just starts fading into oblivion.

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@"Swagg.9236" said:How about instead of using an arenanet-approved, "Slap a bandaid on the severed artery" thought process, why not just give conditions an actual purpose in the game? You can't have two untyped damage sources running around, constantly competing with each other; that's just going to invalidate one or the other based on the whim of any given patch note release. It's the reason why, prior to the condition stack change, conditions were WORTHLESS in every mode (particularly in PvE but even in PvP, the only one that was remotely viable was a Necromancer build, and even that was trash); and it's also the reason why after the condition patch, we saw some condition builds randomly and utterly supplant power stats on certain classes. There is no justification for either type reigning over the other: one has to go.

So, instead of complaining about the fact that the one thing that can maybe kill a super passive, one-shot Mesmer boi is if said boi gets clipped by a billion condis at once by another player pressing around 3 buttons, why not just suggest that conditions get what they deserve: their damage gutted, their proliferated presence vastly culled, and their purpose retooled into one intended for set-up triggers (i.e. "
[THIS SKILL] deals [bONUS1]/gets you [bONUS2] if you strike a foe that is suffering from [CONDITION]
")?

Finally someone gets it!!!! Conditions should not be a core method of dealing damage but should function as utility or supplementary damage. This is something guild wars 1 got very right.You could run degen builds but they were not just spam endless conditions and win. There was much more nuance to it.

Why ? different game.

"Different game" isn't the point. The point is that DoTs in GW1 had a purpose. DoTs in GW2 are just "passive-tick power damage." As I had already said, this dynamic is why GW2 conditions were WORTHLESS for something like three years into the game's lifetime. Moreover, GW2 conditions only became "useful" after they were buffed into the stratosphere by the condition cap update along with a number of other powercreep patches. However, when I say "useful" I really mean "they just supplanted power for certain builds," which ultimately means that in order for GW2 conditions to become "worthwhile to use," it means that "direct damage must become invalidated." They are basically the same; they fulfill the same role. This means that GW2 might as well only have one of them doing actual damage; not both simultaneously competing for the right to perform that single function.

GW1 did it right. The fact that it was a different game has no bearing on this discussion. GW1 conditions had a purpose (and often worked to boost direct damage while simultaneously serving as skillbar opportunity cost). GW2 conditions neither have a purpose (since they do nothing but directly compete with power for "the DPS role") nor do they promote any sort of opportunity cost (since they are mostly just baked into loads of skills, including autoattacks). This is the difference between someone in GW1 devoting 3/8 of their skill choices to making the skill Discord effective on a Necromancer compared to a GW2 Necromancer using a scepter (which any Necromancer can use), but just magically having higher numbers than the other Necromancers for no reason other than that they equipped a bunch of gear stats that made the numbers bigger: the former is a form of build diversity and opportunity cost while the latter is an example of passive elements making a generic playstyle generate big screen numbers.

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@Swagg.9236 said:

@Swagg.9236 said:How about instead of using an arenanet-approved, "Slap a bandaid on the severed artery" thought process, why not just give conditions an actual purpose in the game? You can't have two untyped damage sources running around, constantly competing with each other; that's just going to invalidate one or the other based on the whim of any given patch note release. It's the reason why, prior to the condition stack change, conditions were WORTHLESS in every mode (particularly in PvE but even in PvP, the only one that was remotely viable was a Necromancer build, and even that was trash); and it's also the reason why after the condition patch, we saw some condition builds randomly and utterly supplant power stats on certain classes. There is no justification for either type reigning over the other: one has to go.

So, instead of complaining about the fact that the one thing that can maybe kill a super passive, one-shot Mesmer boi is if said boi gets clipped by a billion condis at once by another player pressing around 3 buttons, why not just suggest that conditions get what they deserve: their damage gutted, their proliferated presence vastly culled, and their purpose retooled into one intended for set-up triggers (i.e. "
[THIS SKILL] deals [bONUS1]/gets you [bONUS2] if you strike a foe that is suffering from [CONDITION]
")?

Finally someone gets it!!!! Conditions should not be a core method of dealing damage but should function as utility or supplementary damage. This is something guild wars 1 got very right.You could run degen builds but they were not just spam endless conditions and win. There was much more nuance to it.

While degen was a valuable source of team-based, DPS "pressure" in PvP, the best thing about conditions in GW1 was the fact that they, more often than not, were used as triggers for conditional bonuses in certain skills (i.e. Discord). To that end, conditions purpose in GW1, if you weren't playing a Ranger (which was generally the only profession which could reliably and consistently apply 2-3 conditions to a single target without completely ruining their build), were opportunity cost, which is something that GW2 SORELY lacks. Everyone just takes the same sort of build in GW2: teleports, damage negation (protracted evade/invuln/block), instant damage, and/or ranged damage with no real travel time. GW1 was a team game with many niches forming a balanced frontline, linebacker corps, and a backline. GW2 is just 5 generic dudes running one of two, homogenized playstyles, looking to gang up on a random opponent who just isn't near any teammates. The skill ceiling dips drastically, and the purpose of having any given profession in the game sort of just starts fading into oblivion.

@Swagg.9236 said:How about instead of using an arenanet-approved, "Slap a bandaid on the severed artery" thought process, why not just give conditions an actual purpose in the game? You can't have two untyped damage sources running around, constantly competing with each other; that's just going to invalidate one or the other based on the whim of any given patch note release. It's the reason why, prior to the condition stack change, conditions were WORTHLESS in every mode (particularly in PvE but even in PvP, the only one that was remotely viable was a Necromancer build, and even that was trash); and it's also the reason why after the condition patch, we saw some condition builds randomly and utterly supplant power stats on certain classes. There is no justification for either type reigning over the other: one has to go.

So, instead of complaining about the fact that the one thing that can maybe kill a super passive, one-shot Mesmer boi is if said boi gets clipped by a billion condis at once by another player pressing around 3 buttons, why not just suggest that conditions get what they deserve: their damage gutted, their proliferated presence vastly culled, and their purpose retooled into one intended for set-up triggers (i.e. "
[THIS SKILL] deals [bONUS1]/gets you [bONUS2] if you strike a foe that is suffering from [CONDITION]
")?

Finally someone gets it!!!! Conditions should not be a core method of dealing damage but should function as utility or supplementary damage. This is something guild wars 1 got very right.You could run degen builds but they were not just spam endless conditions and win. There was much more nuance to it.

Why ? different game.

"Different game" isn't the point. The point is that DoTs in GW1 had a purpose. DoTs in GW2 are just "passive-tick power damage." As I had already said, dynamic is why GW2 conditions were WORTHLESS for something like three years into the game's lifetime. Moreover, GW2 conditions only became "useful" after they were buffed into the stratosphere by the condition cap update along with a number of other powercreep patches. However, when I say "useful" I really mean "they just supplanted power for certain builds," which ultimately means that in order for GW2 conditions to become "worthwhile to use," it means that "direct damage must become invalidated." They are basically the same; the fulfill the same role. This means that GW2 might as well only have one of them doing actual damage; not both simultaneously competing for that single role.

GW1 did it right. The fact that it was a different game has no bearing on this discussion. GW1 conditions had a purpose (and often worked to boost direct damage while simultaneously serving as skillbar opportunity cost). GW2 conditions neither have a purpose (since they do nothing but directly compete with power for "the DPS role") nor do they promote any sort of opportunity cost (since they are mostly just baked into loads of skills, including autoattacks).

You hit the nail on the head.

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@Zexanima.7851 said:

@"Swagg.9236" said:How about instead of using an arenanet-approved, "Slap a bandaid on the severed artery" thought process, why not just give conditions an actual purpose in the game? You can't have two untyped damage sources running around, constantly competing with each other; that's just going to invalidate one or the other based on the whim of any given patch note release. It's the reason why, prior to the condition stack change, conditions were WORTHLESS in every mode (particularly in PvE but even in PvP, the only one that was remotely viable was a Necromancer build, and even that was trash); and it's also the reason why after the condition patch, we saw some condition builds randomly and utterly supplant power stats on certain classes. There is no justification for either type reigning over the other: one has to go.

So, instead of complaining about the fact that the one thing that can maybe kill a super passive, one-shot Mesmer boi is if said boi gets clipped by a billion condis at once by another player pressing around 3 buttons, why not just suggest that conditions get what they deserve: their damage gutted, their proliferated presence vastly culled, and their purpose retooled into one intended for set-up triggers (i.e. "
[THIS SKILL] deals [bONUS1]/gets you [bONUS2] if you strike a foe that is suffering from [CONDITION]
")?

Finally someone gets it!!!! Conditions should not be a core method of dealing damage but should function as utility or supplementary damage. This is something guild wars 1 got very right.You could run degen builds but they were not just spam endless conditions and win. There was much more nuance to it.

Why ? different game.

Because right now what a condition is so muddied. You have damage, control, heal reduction, situational damage and blind effects that all have to be balanced against condition removal.

The result of this arms race has been classes that can actually use conditions for damage must produce massive stacks of multiple conditions in seconds to generate burst before their conditions are removed. This effectively means they end up with similar time to kill as power specs but if they go uncleansed they do even more damage.

they dont have similar TTK. not even close.this "condi bursting" is landing usually 4+ abilities and dying in 2s.power burst kills you in 0,2s.

For example condi burst on Cmirage is p4->p5->scepter 3 while evading ( clone does ambush ) -> jaunt->f1+f2thats 7 abilities to " burst you " in about 4s.power build like ranger will kill you with knockback + rapidfire in 1,5-2s with 2 abilities.

Yes but I’m talking about conditions in general for balancing and not any particular current build. Most condi based builds have been nerfed down again right now and power builds with lots daze and stuns are running rampant again.

But every time a condi build rises to prominence it starts to reach very low ttk.

Also the difference between. 2 and 4 seconds is basically nothing in terms of being able to kill when most condi builds that have been dominant end up with ridiculous evade or control effects on top that they can use WHILE Doing full damage or even as core parts of their burst.

I will give you relistic example.Ranger knocks you down and rapidfires you, by the time you stunremove and evade you lose 1/3 hp.Ranger traded 2 cooldowns, for your 1 cooldown, dodge and 1/3 of your hp.

Now I do my condi burst, after 1s you cleanse. I lose 7 cooldowns, you lose 1/3 hp and 1 cleanse. the end.

see whats better?Difference between 2 sec and 4s is IMMENSE.Expecially with condi, if you cleanse it all goes poof and no more damage.What insane condi builds CC? If anything power builds have MORE CC then condi builds.

Condi builds.Core necro. -> lots of fears but they get cleansed, it only gets unhealthy when you have stab. in the end its not too much. 2x hard CC + cripple + potential corrupt boon fear.C mirage -> depending on build its p5 stun, couple of cripples, and 1-3 dazes + slow. iits not much at all. 2-4 hard CC + criple and slow.Fire weaver ( it still deals alright power dmg due to 25 might )

Then we have power builds, whoopie.S/P thief -> daze on f1, s3 spam that stuns + HS short daze for interrupts. More then condi buildsD/S+GS SPB -> D2-> slow, D3-> daze/stun. Any burst-> tether=pull. BCharge=knockdow, s4=stun.rampage= 3x hard cc. f2=daze.GS=cripple.+ potential stomp for konockdow. Thats more CC then 2 condi builds combined tbh. 8/9 hard CC + slow and crippleHolo -> Rifle immob. Rifle knockdow. Holo 5 knockdow.PLB knockdow. 3x hard CC + immob.

As you can see most power builds have MUCH more CC then condi builds.

Condi builds don't usually need CC though. Their "burst" is either multi-hit or AoE and most often ranged. The reason power builds need CC is because their burst are highly telegraphed and easily evaded or interrupted but you picked probably the most problematic burst combo as an example. What you leave out of your argument is condi builds can apply this slightly less bursty pressure while not having to sacrifice leaving them selves open. It doesn't matter if something like mirage or weaver can't burst you as fast as ranger by a couple seconds (and weaver totally can) because they don't allow you to fight back. With ranger, once I stun break their knockback I can immediately start counter pressuring. With mirage I cannot because they will be invuln while applying confusion and torment, both conditions that punish you for retaliating against them. Then they will blink/jaunt/ect until their big burst is off CD all while spattering you with more condi and interrupts. You make it sound like condi mirage and fire weaver is a 1-and-done but it's far from it. The number of condi they can apply WHILE playing defensively is stupid.

big LOL.highly telegraphed what?how is holo snare telegraphed? or holo knockdown?how is pistolwhip telegraped if theif casts it behinda wall and ports on you.warrior has telegraphs I agree, but all those classes have multihits. you are straw manning to hate on condi.

PoWeRbUiLdS need CC becouse skills are telegraphed -> personal opinion.

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Condi builds seem to have a little less telegraph overall than power setups, but let's not delude ourselves into thinking it's a condi specific thing.

It's weird seeing people complain about condi 'burst' in one post, then say condi builds don't usually need cc. If they don't need cc, that tends to be the exception, not the rule. Even condi mirage has a lot of telegraphs. A CC in the form of magic bullet so it can land the pewpew phantasm. When it dodges, all its clones have a stroke and start a rave. Necros still need to use fear. Even scourge has massively telegraphed CC they needed to land, plus fear sometimes, to lock people into burst.

Mirage dodge isn't infinite. It has a....I don't know. A duration? People keep talking like a mirage dodges once and is invulnerable for the rest of the fight. They're not.

Also LOL @ counter pressuring a ranger longbow burst being so much easier than a mirage. Really now.

! Inc a bunch of people coming in with a bunch of cherry picked examples and contradictions to prove their point while totally ignoring everything else

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@"Swagg.9236" said:How about instead of using an arenanet-approved, "Slap a bandaid on the severed artery" thought process, why not just give conditions an actual purpose in the game? You can't have two untyped damage sources running around, constantly competing with each other; that's just going to invalidate one or the other based on the whim of any given patch note release. It's the reason why, prior to the condition stack change, conditions were WORTHLESS in every mode (particularly in PvE but even in PvP, the only one that was remotely viable was a Necromancer build, and even that was trash); and it's also the reason why after the condition patch, we saw some condition builds randomly and utterly supplant power stats on certain classes. There is no justification for either type reigning over the other: one has to go.

So, instead of complaining about the fact that the one thing that can maybe kill a super passive, one-shot Mesmer boi is if said boi gets clipped by a billion condis at once by another player pressing around 3 buttons, why not just suggest that conditions get what they deserve: their damage gutted, their proliferated presence vastly culled, and their purpose retooled into one intended for set-up triggers (i.e. "
[THIS SKILL] deals [bONUS1]/gets you [bONUS2] if you strike a foe that is suffering from [CONDITION]
")?

Finally someone gets it!!!! Conditions should not be a core method of dealing damage but should function as utility or supplementary damage. This is something guild wars 1 got very right.You could run degen builds but they were not just spam endless conditions and win. There was much more nuance to it.

Why ? different game.

Because right now what a condition is so muddied. You have damage, control, heal reduction, situational damage and blind effects that all have to be balanced against condition removal.

The result of this arms race has been classes that can actually use conditions for damage must produce massive stacks of multiple conditions in seconds to generate burst before their conditions are removed. This effectively means they end up with similar time to kill as power specs but if they go uncleansed they do even more damage.

they dont have similar TTK. not even close.this "condi bursting" is landing usually 4+ abilities and dying in 2s.power burst kills you in 0,2s.

For example condi burst on Cmirage is p4->p5->scepter 3 while evading ( clone does ambush ) -> jaunt->f1+f2thats 7 abilities to " burst you " in about 4s.power build like ranger will kill you with knockback + rapidfire in 1,5-2s with 2 abilities.

Yes but I’m talking about conditions in general for balancing and not any particular current build. Most condi based builds have been nerfed down again right now and power builds with lots daze and stuns are running rampant again.

But every time a condi build rises to prominence it starts to reach very low ttk.

Also the difference between. 2 and 4 seconds is basically nothing in terms of being able to kill when most condi builds that have been dominant end up with ridiculous evade or control effects on top that they can use WHILE Doing full damage or even as core parts of their burst.

I will give you relistic example.Ranger knocks you down and rapidfires you, by the time you stunremove and evade you lose 1/3 hp.Ranger traded 2 cooldowns, for your 1 cooldown, dodge and 1/3 of your hp.

Now I do my condi burst, after 1s you cleanse. I lose 7 cooldowns, you lose 1/3 hp and 1 cleanse. the end.

see whats better?Difference between 2 sec and 4s is IMMENSE.Expecially with condi, if you cleanse it all goes poof and no more damage.What insane condi builds CC? If anything power builds have MORE CC then condi builds.

Condi builds.Core necro. -> lots of fears but they get cleansed, it only gets unhealthy when you have stab. in the end its not too much. 2x hard CC + cripple + potential corrupt boon fear.C mirage -> depending on build its p5 stun, couple of cripples, and 1-3 dazes + slow. iits not much at all. 2-4 hard CC + criple and slow.Fire weaver ( it still deals alright power dmg due to 25 might )

Then we have power builds, whoopie.S/P thief -> daze on f1, s3 spam that stuns + HS short daze for interrupts. More then condi buildsD/S+GS SPB -> D2-> slow, D3-> daze/stun. Any burst-> tether=pull. BCharge=knockdow, s4=stun.rampage= 3x hard cc. f2=daze.GS=cripple.+ potential stomp for konockdow. Thats more CC then 2 condi builds combined tbh. 8/9 hard CC + slow and crippleHolo -> Rifle immob. Rifle knockdow. Holo 5 knockdow.PLB knockdow. 3x hard CC + immob.

As you can see most power builds have MUCH more CC then condi builds.

Condi builds don't usually need CC though. Their "burst" is either multi-hit or AoE and most often ranged. The reason power builds need CC is because their burst are highly telegraphed and easily evaded or interrupted but you picked probably the most problematic burst combo as an example. What you leave out of your argument is condi builds can apply this slightly less bursty pressure while not having to sacrifice leaving them selves open. It doesn't matter if something like mirage or weaver can't burst you as fast as ranger by a couple seconds (and weaver totally can) because they don't allow you to fight back. With ranger, once I stun break their knockback I can immediately start counter pressuring. With mirage I cannot because they will be invuln while applying confusion and torment, both conditions that punish you for retaliating against them. Then they will blink/jaunt/ect until their big burst is off CD all while spattering you with more condi and interrupts. You make it sound like condi mirage and fire weaver is a 1-and-done but it's far from it. The number of condi they can apply WHILE playing defensively is stupid.

big LOL.highly telegraphed what?how is holo snare telegraphed? or holo knockdown?how is pistolwhip telegraped if theif casts it behinda wall and ports on you.warrior has telegraphs I agree, but all those classes have multihits. you are straw manning to hate on condi.

PoWeRbUiLdS need CC becouse skills are telegraphed -> personal opinion.

All holo skills are highly telegraphed and their stealth predictable. Wait 3 seconds and dodge, 95% of holos will whiff their stealth CC. I can avoid all their damage on sound cues alone. After the thief opens on you, you know exactly what to expect and they are not going to kill you in one combo unless you're a glass ele. I expect you play mesmer though you're just screwed vs theif anyways. I'm not straw manning, I'm providing counter arguments. You're incorrectly classifying my arguments to cover a bad rebuttal. Multi-hit power is much different than multi hit condi. For instance, if I only land three hits from hundred blades big whoop, but if you land three hits and load me up with several stacks of confusion/torment and I dont have a cleanse up? Rip. No power build can spam damage in the way something like fire weaver or condi mirage can while having the invuln uptime they do.

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@Zexanima.7851 said:

@"Swagg.9236" said:How about instead of using an arenanet-approved, "Slap a bandaid on the severed artery" thought process, why not just give conditions an actual purpose in the game? You can't have two untyped damage sources running around, constantly competing with each other; that's just going to invalidate one or the other based on the whim of any given patch note release. It's the reason why, prior to the condition stack change, conditions were WORTHLESS in every mode (particularly in PvE but even in PvP, the only one that was remotely viable was a Necromancer build, and even that was trash); and it's also the reason why after the condition patch, we saw some condition builds randomly and utterly supplant power stats on certain classes. There is no justification for either type reigning over the other: one has to go.

So, instead of complaining about the fact that the one thing that can maybe kill a super passive, one-shot Mesmer boi is if said boi gets clipped by a billion condis at once by another player pressing around 3 buttons, why not just suggest that conditions get what they deserve: their damage gutted, their proliferated presence vastly culled, and their purpose retooled into one intended for set-up triggers (i.e. "
[THIS SKILL] deals [bONUS1]/gets you [bONUS2] if you strike a foe that is suffering from [CONDITION]
")?

Finally someone gets it!!!! Conditions should not be a core method of dealing damage but should function as utility or supplementary damage. This is something guild wars 1 got very right.You could run degen builds but they were not just spam endless conditions and win. There was much more nuance to it.

Why ? different game.

Because right now what a condition is so muddied. You have damage, control, heal reduction, situational damage and blind effects that all have to be balanced against condition removal.

The result of this arms race has been classes that can actually use conditions for damage must produce massive stacks of multiple conditions in seconds to generate burst before their conditions are removed. This effectively means they end up with similar time to kill as power specs but if they go uncleansed they do even more damage.

they dont have similar TTK. not even close.this "condi bursting" is landing usually 4+ abilities and dying in 2s.power burst kills you in 0,2s.

For example condi burst on Cmirage is p4->p5->scepter 3 while evading ( clone does ambush ) -> jaunt->f1+f2thats 7 abilities to " burst you " in about 4s.power build like ranger will kill you with knockback + rapidfire in 1,5-2s with 2 abilities.

Yes but I’m talking about conditions in general for balancing and not any particular current build. Most condi based builds have been nerfed down again right now and power builds with lots daze and stuns are running rampant again.

But every time a condi build rises to prominence it starts to reach very low ttk.

Also the difference between. 2 and 4 seconds is basically nothing in terms of being able to kill when most condi builds that have been dominant end up with ridiculous evade or control effects on top that they can use WHILE Doing full damage or even as core parts of their burst.

I will give you relistic example.Ranger knocks you down and rapidfires you, by the time you stunremove and evade you lose 1/3 hp.Ranger traded 2 cooldowns, for your 1 cooldown, dodge and 1/3 of your hp.

Now I do my condi burst, after 1s you cleanse. I lose 7 cooldowns, you lose 1/3 hp and 1 cleanse. the end.

see whats better?Difference between 2 sec and 4s is IMMENSE.Expecially with condi, if you cleanse it all goes poof and no more damage.What insane condi builds CC? If anything power builds have MORE CC then condi builds.

Condi builds.Core necro. -> lots of fears but they get cleansed, it only gets unhealthy when you have stab. in the end its not too much. 2x hard CC + cripple + potential corrupt boon fear.C mirage -> depending on build its p5 stun, couple of cripples, and 1-3 dazes + slow. iits not much at all. 2-4 hard CC + criple and slow.Fire weaver ( it still deals alright power dmg due to 25 might )

Then we have power builds, whoopie.S/P thief -> daze on f1, s3 spam that stuns + HS short daze for interrupts. More then condi buildsD/S+GS SPB -> D2-> slow, D3-> daze/stun. Any burst-> tether=pull. BCharge=knockdow, s4=stun.rampage= 3x hard cc. f2=daze.GS=cripple.+ potential stomp for konockdow. Thats more CC then 2 condi builds combined tbh. 8/9 hard CC + slow and crippleHolo -> Rifle immob. Rifle knockdow. Holo 5 knockdow.PLB knockdow. 3x hard CC + immob.

As you can see most power builds have MUCH more CC then condi builds.

Condi builds don't usually need CC though. Their "burst" is either multi-hit or AoE and most often ranged. The reason power builds need CC is because their burst are highly telegraphed and easily evaded or interrupted but you picked probably the most problematic burst combo as an example. What you leave out of your argument is condi builds can apply this slightly less bursty pressure while not having to sacrifice leaving them selves open. It doesn't matter if something like mirage or weaver can't burst you as fast as ranger by a couple seconds (and weaver totally can) because they don't allow you to fight back. With ranger, once I stun break their knockback I can immediately start counter pressuring. With mirage I cannot because they will be invuln while applying confusion and torment, both conditions that punish you for retaliating against them. Then they will blink/jaunt/ect until their big burst is off CD all while spattering you with more condi and interrupts. You make it sound like condi mirage and fire weaver is a 1-and-done but it's far from it. The number of condi they can apply WHILE playing defensively is stupid.

big LOL.highly telegraphed what?how is holo snare telegraphed? or holo knockdown?how is pistolwhip telegraped if theif casts it behinda wall and ports on you.warrior has telegraphs I agree, but all those classes have multihits. you are straw manning to hate on condi.

PoWeRbUiLdS need CC becouse skills are telegraphed -> personal opinion.

All holo skills are highly telegraphed and their stealth predictable. Wait 3 seconds and dodge, 95% of holos will whiff their stealth CC. I can avoid all their damage on sound cues alone. After the thief opens on you, you know exactly what to expect and they are not going to kill you in one combo unless you're a glass ele. I expect you play mesmer though you're just screwed vs theif anyways. I'm not straw manning, I'm providing counter arguments. You're incorrectly classifying my arguments to cover a bad rebuttal. Multi-hit power is much different than multi hit condi. For instance, if I only land three hits from hundred blades big whoop, but if you land three hits and load me up with several stacks of confusion/torment and I dont have a cleanse up? Rip. No power build can spam damage in the way something like fire weaver or condi mirage can while having the invuln uptime they do.

you dont dodge plb by waiting 3s every time. he might use it instantly or he might wait.he can have quickness to land it after 1,5s or not and even land it after 5s.rifle knockback and net shot has no tell.the only skill that has tell for holo is holo 5, but since its overnerfed its not even worth using most of the time.

there is no difference, 3 hits from my scepter 3 will apply 3 confusion thats useless and deal 500-1000dmg.3 hits from hundred blades will take 3k+ dmg.same with holo pistol thingy same with all other power multihits.with invuln uptime you are wrong AGAIN, warrior has way more mitigation then mirage has.low CD gs 3, low cd full counter, extra endurance from might gain and burst skills for extra dodges and many others, all while weaving BIG hits inbetween.how much time to react do you have for gs3 from warrior in melee? 0,2s?0,3s? if you dont its boom 5-10k dmg. 1 skill, that evades.

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