The gods and gender imbalance (spoilers)

[Weindrasi.3805]

@dusanyu.4057 said:

@castlemanic.3198 said:

@Coulter.2315 said:Definitely is, this magical "patriarchy" sets up society to benefit men yet fails to bring them better life expectancy, fails to enroll/graduate them from uni at a higher rate, fails to get them to work in safer environments, fails to protect them from the front lines of war, fails to give them custody of their child in court, fails to keep them from being homeless, fails to even mention their abuse domestically let alone provide shelter, fails to even fund their more likely cancer research at the same rate.

Now I am not saying that women don't face hardships, I am just saying there is zero evidence to suggest our society is constructed to benefit one sex over the other. That makes it a conspiracy theory, the sooner you get out of that hole in reality the better you'll feel.

The irony is

those issues are also the symptoms of patriarchy

. The very same issues that prevent women from having as many opportunities as men also force men into more dangerous situations and don't do much to take some of their issues more seriously. It's not a one sided issue, patriarchy negatively affects both genders, it negatively affects

everyone

, because it demands that each gender adheres to a strict set of rules and those who break free of them find themselves in hot water. So yes, patriarchy is objectively an issue, but it doesn't mean it solely harms women.

Do you even know what "patriarchy" means? Rule by fathers I don't know how the father being the head of the household something that built civilisation magicly turned into this evil thing.

Oh dear lord save me, I'm engaging in this off-topic debate....In the interest of avoiding this death-trap, I'll keep my comment brief."Patriarchy" technically means rule by fathers. However, the social issue it is commonly used to reference today, has nothing to do with the rule and guidance of a benevolent father seeking to guide his family."Patriarchy" as used in feminist circles, refers to the issue of men dominating and controlling women in society purely for power. THAT is evil.The guidance of a benevolent "patriarch" is not the same thing as "patriarchy"The "patriarch" is using his status to serve his family and community for THEIR benefit. The man engaging in "patriarchy" is using his dominion to control others for HIS OWN benefit.

[Weindrasi.3805]

My past two comments are off-topic, so here's one that is on-topic.You all are looking way too deeply into this game--and you're finding "evidence" where there isn't any.Arenanet isn't pushing some "men=evil and women=good" agenda.I suspect Arenanet, like most reasonable humans, is just trying to craft a good story. They don't have some weird focus on gender.If you feel the need to help men, go do it in real life. There's plenty of social issues and struggling men in your community. Personally, though, I think y'all are just bored and looking for something to poke at. (I mean, that's why I'm here x) )

[Mickey Frogeater.1470]

@Reema.7360 said:The fortune teller that tricked Shiro into killing Emperor Angsiyan was also female. And the final boss in CM story, Captain DeLana.

There's a whole other issue: Since the main villainous group of Charr and Norn are misogynist there are NO female villains from those two species except from a few open world bosses associated with pirates or the renegades (though the only one I remember is the Raven shaman at that one skill point cave in Snowden Drifts).

By Fortune Teller you mean the Avatar born of his evil that Abaddon sent to corrupt Shiro? Yes it was a Avatar as https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/A_History_of_Violence states "Ah, freedom. I will remember this compassion, hero. All of these years my anger has been focused on Shiro, but now I find darker forces were at play. Shiro can never gain forgiveness for his crime against the emperor, but know that a greater evil acted as the driving force behind his actions. Abaddon, lord of this realm, sent a minion of his evil to entice Shiro's dark side. Disguised as a simple fortune-teller, this avatar corrupted Shiro thoroughly and used his own black thoughts against him."

Would the Avatar of Abaddon be considered Abaddon's own gender or the one it disguised itself as?

[Rognik.2579]

@Weindrasi.3805 said:

@Rognik.2579 said:

@Weindrasi.3805 said:The Flame Legion oppressed all women because a woman spoke out against them...Actually, at least according to the articles released before the game launched, the Flame Legion had been oppressing women before the time of the Searing. Kalla was just the main female to organize other female warriors (read: combatants) to fight back against the Flame Legion and reintegrate them into the warband hierarchy. Before Kalla's rebellion, the female charr were presumably kept far away from the front lines, breeding, cooking and all that jazz.

You misunderstand what I am referencing. I am referencing lore WAAAAY before Kalla. The first record we have, lore-wise, of Charr sexism is when the flame legion oppressed all women because Balthea Havocbringer spoke out against them. Before Balthea Havocbringer and the Flame Legion's first bid for power, we have nothing. And I'm asserting that the Flame Legion would not have responded to Balthea as they did, unless the Flame Legion--or charr society at large--already had some degree of sexism against women.Though, considering Balthea was a Blood Legion warrior, that sexism probably wasn't as bad until Flame took control.Kalla didn't come around until hundreds or thousands of years later, after Flame rule and female enslavement was very deeply ingrained.I think I'm going to need some citation on where this source came from. I don't remember hearing about this, and I don't see any mention of it on the wiki, which has been pretty good about recording any articles we've gotten from ArenaNet.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@castlemanic.3198 said:Also, wasn't the fortune teller also the whispers at the back of vizier khilbron's mind? and both were ultimately a demon of abaddon?

No, Khilbron was tricked/converted by [Razekiel]().

@Rognik.2579 said:

@Weindrasi.3805 said:

@Rognik.2579 said:

@Weindrasi.3805 said:The Flame Legion oppressed all women because a woman spoke out against them...Actually, at least according to the articles released before the game launched, the Flame Legion had been oppressing women before the time of the Searing. Kalla was just the main female to organize other female warriors (read: combatants) to fight back against the Flame Legion and reintegrate them into the warband hierarchy. Before Kalla's rebellion, the female charr were presumably kept far away from the front lines, breeding, cooking and all that jazz.

You misunderstand what I am referencing. I am referencing lore WAAAAY before Kalla. The first record we have, lore-wise, of Charr sexism is when the flame legion oppressed all women because Balthea Havocbringer spoke out against them. Before Balthea Havocbringer and the Flame Legion's first bid for power, we have nothing. And I'm asserting that the Flame Legion would not have responded to Balthea as they did, unless the Flame Legion--or charr society at large--already had some degree of sexism against women.Though, considering Balthea was a Blood Legion warrior, that sexism probably wasn't as bad until Flame took control.Kalla didn't come around until hundreds or thousands of years later, after Flame rule and female enslavement was very deeply ingrained.I think I'm going to need some citation on where this source came from. I don't remember hearing about this, and I don't see any mention of it on the wiki, which has been pretty good about recording any articles we've gotten from ArenaNet.

If your asking about where Balthea lore comes from:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Ecology_of_the_Charr

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Tribune%27s_Call#At_the_Ash_Tribune.27s_Office (very bottom of the section)

Balthea was a Blood Legion and member of the Shaman caste who spoke out against the adoption of the titans as gods. She rallied a small group to kill the shamans to try to stop this, so when she was captured to spite her, the shaman caste (not just Flame Legion) had banned all women from fighting.

[Vagrant.7206]

@Athrenn.9468 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:Balthazar's divinity had to go somewhere.

Did it, though? Normally I would agree with you, but then one of the writers said this...

[–]Anet-ConnieGlad you liked the blind ;) There was some discussion whether it was too annoying to have the screen effect up the whole time and whether we should pull it, but in the end the hardcore GW1 fans in the office felt it would be an offense to the Six (or I guess the Five) if we didn't.

...So it's the Five now? How did they strip Balthazar's divinity without all of it going straight up Abaddon post-death? Why didn't they do that to Abaddon if it was so easy?

Lyssan magic perhaps?

Balthazar is not as crafty as Abaddon. Perhaps Lyssa trapped his divinity somehow.

[Razor.6392]

@Boysenberry.1869 said:Is there a reason it needs to be balanced? Also, Good and Evil is a matter of perspective. An "evil" God may in fact think they are doing what's ultimately for the best. And what makes the Goddesses "good"? They do nothing to help and then leave. Very good of them.

There is because you can imagine the outrage if it was the other way around.

[BaconReaper.5719]

Define evil? Balthazar was the only god that wanted to stay behind to fight the dragons, the other gods disagreed because it would be cataclysmic and they locked him up. Hence why Balthazar is now wanting power to get revenge on the other gods. Balthazar isn't evil, he just doesn't care for Tyria anymore.

[Weindrasi.3805]

@Rognik.2579 said:

@Weindrasi.3805 said:

@Rognik.2579 said:

@Weindrasi.3805 said:The Flame Legion oppressed all women because a woman spoke out against them...Actually, at least according to the articles released before the game launched, the Flame Legion had been oppressing women before the time of the Searing. Kalla was just the main female to organize other female warriors (read: combatants) to fight back against the Flame Legion and reintegrate them into the warband hierarchy. Before Kalla's rebellion, the female charr were presumably kept far away from the front lines, breeding, cooking and all that jazz.

You misunderstand what I am referencing. I am referencing lore WAAAAY before Kalla. The first record we have, lore-wise, of Charr sexism is when the flame legion oppressed all women because Balthea Havocbringer spoke out against them. Before Balthea Havocbringer and the Flame Legion's first bid for power, we have nothing. And I'm asserting that the Flame Legion would not have responded to Balthea as they did, unless the Flame Legion--or charr society at large--already had some degree of sexism against women.Though, considering Balthea was a Blood Legion warrior, that sexism probably wasn't as bad until Flame took control.Kalla didn't come around until hundreds or thousands of years later, after Flame rule and female enslavement was very deeply ingrained.I think I'm going to need some citation on where this source came from. I don't remember hearing about this, and I don't see any mention of it on the wiki, which has been pretty good about recording any articles we've gotten from ArenaNet.

Konig already cited some sources, but here's a link specifically to Balthea https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bathea_Havocbringer

[Ayakaru.6583]

@Sublimatio.6981 said:Males are statistically known to be more often aggressive and generally evil, and we live in times where patriarchy still dominates our societies/cultures. I don't think it's inaccurate that it's reflected in gods/semigods in our game. ANet is trying to stay realisitic in that regard I guess.

Though I like female villains way more. Preferably, they win. Too bad this game has to be cliche for the mass ;_;

Please refrain from generalizing some regions of the middle East as the entire world.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

Do the gods really have genders? The humans of Tyria impose a lot of anthropomorphic bias in describing their traits, abilities, and appearance. We know that the human Kormir was female, but now that "she" is divine, does it still make sense to refer to a gender? Do the gods reproduce? If not, what does gender actually mean for them?

And regardless, why would it matter if there are 4 females and one male? If ANet were flipping coins to decide the gender of each, I wouldn't bet money that they'd end up with 4:1 or 1:4; it's pretty likely.

[Coulter.2315]

@"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:Do the gods really have genders? The humans of Tyria impose a lot of anthropomorphic bias in describing their traits, abilities, and appearance. We know that the human Kormir was female, but now that "she" is divine, does it still make sense to refer to a gender? Do the gods reproduce? If not, what does gender actually mean for them?

And regardless, why would it matter if there are 4 females and one male? If ANet were flipping coins to decide the gender of each, I wouldn't bet money that they'd end up with 4:1 or 1:4; it's pretty likely.

Grenth is Dwayna's son, so yes they still have genders and reproduce (or at least she does). Like Zeus is male and has children both divine and demigods.

[Squee.7829]

I think it's reasonable enough to say they have genders since they appear to just be hyped up versions of humans, who have genders. (Or sexes. I'm not sure where the current science on these things stand. ). And they CAN reproduce sexually, as evidenced by Grenth, but it's incredibly rare so having a gender to them is probably almost like having a tail bone. Just a leftover part of our evolution that we don't use anymore.

[draxynnic.3719]

@Squee.7829 said:I think it's reasonable enough to say they have genders since they appear to just be hyped up versions of humans, who have genders. (Or sexes. I'm not sure where the current science on these things stand. ). And they CAN reproduce sexually, as evidenced by Grenth, but it's incredibly rare so having a gender to them is probably almost like having a tail bone. Just a leftover part of our evolution that we don't use anymore.

Eh, jury's still out on whether Grenth was conceived through sex as we know it. It's the simplest explanation, but it's probably within Dwayna's power to conceive an heir for the "mortal sculptor" (presumed Malchor) through other means if she chose.

[Squee.7829]

That's fair. So I guess the overall takeaway for me is that IF the gods have genders, they're largely useless and not worth making a deal over. (No gender imbalance there if the perceived 'genders' are not a factor for literally anything the gods do). But it's also possible they don't have genders at all , just feminine/masculine features as people do, and reproduce via god magic on extremely rare occasions. And thus it's still not worth making a deal over. (No gender imbalance if the gender doesn't exist)

[marceline.8163]

If all the gods were all male you can guarantee someone would take issue with it too. None of it matters at all unless it's been purposely made that way in the name of "feminist equality", and even then, it's just a game. The bigger issue in PoF for me was the rubbish music and also how irony/sarcasm deficient our characters appear to be.

[Astra Lux.2846]

@Fenom.9457 said:You're looking too much into it. But I'd like to be grenth, only guy with 4 women >:)And people have killed them selves over dwayna

Yeeeah, Dwayna's his mom so...

[Toolbox.9375]

You want more than one male? You sexist! DIVERSITY, DIVERSITY!

(Seriously, though, if it were an imbalance against females, there'd be weekly threads whining about it. I don't particularly care, myself, but it's not unfounded.)

[Coulter.2315]

@Squee.7829 said:That's fair. So I guess the overall takeaway for me is that IF the gods have genders, they're largely useless and not worth making a deal over. (No gender imbalance there if the perceived 'genders' are not a factor for literally anything the gods do). But it's also possible they don't have genders at all , just feminine/masculine features as people do, and reproduce via god magic on extremely rare occasions. And thus it's still not worth making a deal over. (No gender imbalance if the gender doesn't exist)

They do take on the qualities of the sexes though; mercy = female, war = male, judgement = male, beauty = female, nature = female. Their core concepts are gendered, just like in the gods we have through our history or other fantasy universes (GoT uses similar stuff with Father, Smith, Maiden, Crone, Mother, Warrior & Stranger. Stranger being the only one with ambiguous sex).

[Zaraki.5784]

I thought Melandru was genderless...

[TheQuickFox.3826]

Go take a look at real life: Who are doing the murders? Who are starting the wars? Who are fighting them? Who are doing the senseless shootings, stabbings, bombings arsonists? I can on and on, but these are mostly males, is it? For some reason they tend to be overrepresented in the statistics of most things bad and criminal.

Disclaimer: I'm a male myself and I'm not telling that males are bad in general.

[Rognik.2579]

@Zaraki.5784 said:I thought Melandru was genderless...No, Melandru is distinctly female. Her statues all have breasts, and I'm sure every reference uses female pronouns.

[Lighter.5631]

this is so sexist omg

[Jamin.6528]

I don't mind this too much. However, I am surprised that Lyssa (the Goddess of Illusions and Chaos) isn't causing problems...

...Or maybe she is...