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Holosmith Cool down


Donatello.4139

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After playing the Holosmith a bit on the preview weekend and during the stress test I really have enjoyed it. One thing about Holosmith is that it feels like another kit (which isn't a bad thing) because of that I found myself switching to Holosmith and trying to switch to other kits rather quickly like i'm used to doing while playing Engineer. Of course it did not work because there is 5 second cool down when switching to Holosmith. I wondered what other people thought about this. I know there are traits based on going to Holomode but you could have an internal cooldown on those traits instead of the kit. This is coming from a PvE perspective I dont play much PvP.

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I think the cooldown is fine as it is. For any power build you'll be in the forge mode long enough to not notice it anyway the only thing it kind of sucks is for condi builds since photon blitz is the only condition application skill in forge.

Forge is very powerful and it needs to have a downside to using it so its not a direct upgrade. You could say Overheating is a big downside but its not hard at all to manage heat, so that downside is almost non-existent.

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@coglin.1496 said:Personally I am not okay with anything that locks kits out in any way, shape, or form. To me it feels like it runs counter to the profession to be locked out of one its core functionality and design functions.

Kits aren't core functionality. They are core utility skills. Toolbelt is core functionality. Don't make them more than they are.

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@leviathan.2148 said:

@coglin.1496 said:Personally I am not okay with anything that locks kits out in any way, shape, or form. To me it feels like it runs counter to the profession to be locked out of one its core functionality and design functions.

Kits aren't core functionality. They are core utility skills. Toolbelt is core functionality. Don't make them more than they are.

Yeah, I never declared them "core functionality", those are your words, not mine. I stated it as "one its core functionality and design functions." The comprehension of the words used is important when having a nuanced discussion.

Toolbelt is core functionalityAs well tool belt skills ARE NOT the professions core functionality, they are the engineers "professional mechanic" which IS NOT the same as a "functionality" of a profession. As well I can link multiple dev quotes declaring kits "a core function of the engineer and unique to the profession". So I am unclear how you presume to tell anyone they are making something more or less than what they are when you do not seem to know what they are yourself. And as they are UNIQUE to the profession and one of its defining Professional Mechanics as stated by the games developers, I feel I am being quite reasonable in taking issue with having cool down on the them.

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  • ArenaNet Staff

The kit lockout period on Photon Forge is to prevent players from circumventing the cooldown on on Deactivate Photon Forge. Swapping to a kit boots you out of photon forge mode, so without the lockout period on kits it would be easy to exit the mode early without using the Deactivate skill.

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@Robert Gee.9246 said:The kit lockout period on Photon Forge is to prevent players from circumventing the cooldown on on Deactivate Photon Forge. Swapping to a kit boots you out of photon forge mode, so without the lockout period on kits it would be easy to exit the mode early without using the Deactivate skill.

Perhaps a solution would be to gain a large amount of heat when 'forcefully' exiting Photon Forge, this means for all intents and purposes, you cannot infinitely swap in and out for certain skills and bonuses, but also allows you to jump out and take that risk if you need a certain utility.

It's not a major issue for me, as it is pretty much a L2P thing, similar to what I think you wanted Berserk mode on Berserker to be. It would however feel less 'clunky' in some senses. I do however assume that with content being locked down, such a change (if it was to be made) would not be seen till after release.

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@AngelsShadow.7360 said:Perhaps a solution would be to gain a large amount of heat when 'forcefully' exiting Photon Forge, this means for all intents and purposes, you cannot infinitely swap in and out for certain skills and bonuses, but also allows you to jump out and take that risk if you need a certain utility.

It's not a major issue for me, as it is pretty much a L2P thing, similar to what I think you wanted Berserk mode on Berserker to be. It would however feel less 'clunky' in some senses. I do however assume that with content being locked down, such a change (if it was to be made) would not be seen till after release.

That could potentially present its own problem in that players will want to be at high heat levels for general combat, and such an approach to Kits would allow for very rapid heat generation.

I'm not too concerned with the cooldown, personally, but if something must be done, I do think the best approach would just be to remove the cooldown and instead put a cooldown on traits involving the deactivation of Photon Forge.

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Please no more internal cooldowns, and heat when leaving forge just sounds clunky and counter to how the spec plays.

Not everything needs to be changed, sometimes I feel like we go around in these circles coming up with changes just for the sake of changes because it's not exactly how we want it. Sometimes Anet gets it right on the first try ya know...

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@Adamantium.3682 said:Please no more internal cooldowns, and heat when leaving forge just sounds clunky and counter to how the spec plays.

Not everything needs to be changed, sometimes I feel like we go around in these circles coming up with changes just for the sake of changes because it's not exactly how we want it. Sometimes Anet gets it right on the first try ya know...

Agreed. Nothing wrong with how forge mode works right now.

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@"Robert Gee.9246" said:The kit lockout period on Photon Forge is to prevent players from circumventing the cooldown on on Deactivate Photon Forge. Swapping to a kit boots you out of photon forge mode, so without the lockout period on kits it would be easy to exit the mode early without using the Deactivate skill.Then where do you see the benefits of the cooldown? What is "exiting PF early"? Why do people want to exit Forge early? What do people do after exiting Forge early?Are there even any noteable benefits from exiting early?

In general, you have the heat depletion mechanic already acting as a pseudo cooldown: It has a 3 second delay. It speeds up after 5 seconds. (== better not enter forge early)

Grandmaster traits also have interactions that make the cooldown questionable:

  • PBM wants you to overheat, exiting early doesn't help much with it.
  • Capacity Storage could be "abused", as you can effectively reset the depletion timer, but the cost for this is equally heavy. No depletion means no forge skills
  • Release Valve usage is limited by Endurance, and not PF.

You have Prismatic Converter and Focusing Lens that would benefit from frequently exiting/entering, but that is something that can easily be handled by a cooldown on the trait. (although if you spam exit/enter, you also will not deplete any heat here)

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eh

maybe make the trait for condi removals only proc off of pushing the f5 flip skill instead of any photon forge deactivation. leave the cd in place on f5, but remove the kit cds.pros: feels more engi, heat management becomes much easier, easier to recover from the crucial mistake of pushing f5 at 90+ (140+) heat.cons: erodes the separation between holo and engi, deactivate photon forge condi removal becomes more limited because its gonna be rarer to want to push f5 in order to exit.

it just doesnt feel like engi to be locked into a certain weapon for a certain amount of time. plus, gw2 is pretty big on not providing easy ways to really screw yourself over. fatfingering a key shouldnt mean automatic death, but if you fatfinger f5 while at high heat, that 6 sec cd is gonna take over half your hp. nothing else in the game is quite so... uncompromising.

im not sure i understand why we should want to be locked into using photon forge mode. is it specifically with the condi removal trait in mind? is it because its supposed to be stronger damage? one of core engis strongest themes is the ability to have an answer to any situation at any time and thats what keeps engi in a fight where you need to improvise to respond... you just cant do that while locked in to photon forge. you basically HAVE to just do damage. but idk thats a theme that elite specs in general have washed away by raising the power levels of everyone beyond what having 3 kits at your disposal can accomplish.

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The cooldown on Forge, and the inability to use kits in Forge, both have to do with the risk/reward aspect of heat. The way Holosmith is designed, you want higher heat, but get too hot and you hurt yourself.Currently, if you're in Forge, almost all of your offense comes from the Forge skills, which generate heat. This means that you need to think about whether you can afford the heat you'll generate before you enter Forge. If you're in Forge and almost overheated, you have to choose whether to overheat and hurt yourself, or stop attacking and become a sitting duck.If kits were allowed in Forge, or the cooldown was removed, this balancing factor would be gone.

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@Thiazi.1250 said:Currently, if you're in Forge, almost all of your offense comes from the Forge skills, which generate heat. This means that you need to think about whether you can afford the heat you'll generate before you enter Forge. If you're in Forge and almost overheated, you have to choose whether to overheat and hurt yourself, or stop attacking and become a sitting duck.

There is no choice when you are in Forge - the decision is made before you enter Forge. If you can't afford Forge abilities within the cooldown, you will not enter Forge. It's as simple as that. The deactivate cooldown just changes how you make the decision.

If you only auto-attack, you'll already generate 30 heat.If you Photon Blitz (you can do that only once per CD), you will be at roughly 40 heat.If you Photon Blitz and Corona Burst, you will be at roughly 50 heat.If you Photon Blitz, Corona Burst, and Shockwave, you will be at roughly 75 heat. (in PvP you likely want that - so you are at a minimum of 55 heat needed in pvp - in PvE Corona is probably a DPS loss unless you play PBM)

Adding a small safety net of one second (or 5 heat), and actually using some abilities, you are looking at a range of 0-50 heat when you can enter forge.

Let's go a step further, and say you want to use two Photon Blitz per Forge. You now have to stay in forge for 9.5 seconds minimum (the cooldown doesn't matter here, but just for heat planning purposes). You will get 9 heat from AA, 32 from Photon Blitz (which takes 3 seconds), you have 6 seconds of auto-attacks to fill (24 heat). You're at 65 heat, add a safety net of 5, and you are once again able to enter forge at only 30 heat, while pressing two buttons in roughly 10 seconds. Brilliant. (not really)

Long Story short: the cooldown of ability 3-5 tied with their high generation doesn't allow for much planning on how to play forge - if you actually intend to press some buttons.

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@Thiazi.1250 said:The cooldown on Forge, and the inability to use kits in Forge, both have to do with the risk/reward aspect of heat. The way Holosmith is designed, you want higher heat, but get too hot and you hurt yourself.Currently, if you're in Forge, almost all of your offense comes from the Forge skills, which generate heat. This means that you need to think about whether you can afford the heat you'll generate before you enter Forge. If you're in Forge and almost overheated, you have to choose whether to overheat and hurt yourself, or stop attacking and become a sitting duck.If kits were allowed in Forge, or the cooldown was removed, this balancing factor would be gone.

"either overheating and hurting yourself or being a sitting duck" is exactly why i question the logic. should an elite spec present this choice of screwing yourself over one way or another? i dont think so. i think it makes the spec weaker. i dont think its a good match of risk and reward. especially in a game where the only risk weve ever been presented with is opportunity cost of cooldowns.

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@kaesebrezen.3104 said:...Long Story short: the cooldown of ability 3-5 tied with their high generation doesn't allow for much planning on how to play forge - if you actually intend to press some buttons.

This is an odd way to end your post because I feel like you spent a few paragraphs explaining all the ways it requires you to make choices and plan how to benefit most from PF at any given moment.

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@insanemaniac.2456 said:

@Thiazi.1250 said:The cooldown on Forge, and the inability to use kits in Forge, both have to do with the risk/reward aspect of heat. The way Holosmith is designed, you want higher heat, but get too hot and you hurt yourself.Currently, if you're in Forge, almost all of your offense comes from the Forge skills, which generate heat. This means that you need to think about whether you can afford the heat you'll generate before you enter Forge. If you're in Forge and almost overheated, you have to choose whether to overheat and hurt yourself, or stop attacking and become a sitting duck.If kits were allowed in Forge, or the cooldown was removed, this balancing factor would be gone.

"either overheating and hurting yourself or being a sitting duck" is exactly why i question the logic. should an elite spec present this choice of screwing yourself over one way or another? i dont think so. i think it makes the spec weaker. i dont think its a good match of risk and reward. especially in a game where the only risk weve ever been presented with is opportunity cost of cooldowns.

Those are hardly the two choices a Holosmith faces. How about the one where you plan your heat level better so you can have the relevant bonuses and use the PF skills you need at any given time without exploding? (assuming you're not using PBM)

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@Adamantium.3682 said:

@insanemaniac.2456 said:

@Thiazi.1250 said:The cooldown on Forge, and the inability to use kits in Forge, both have to do with the risk/reward aspect of heat. The way Holosmith is designed, you want higher heat, but get too hot and you hurt yourself.Currently, if you're in Forge, almost all of your offense comes from the Forge skills, which generate heat. This means that you need to think about whether you can afford the heat you'll generate before you enter Forge. If you're in Forge and almost overheated, you have to choose whether to overheat and hurt yourself, or stop attacking and become a sitting duck.If kits were allowed in Forge, or the cooldown was removed, this balancing factor would be gone.

"either overheating and hurting yourself or being a sitting duck" is exactly why i question the logic. should an elite spec present this choice of screwing yourself over one way or another? i dont think so. i think it makes the spec weaker. i dont think its a good match of risk and reward. especially in a game where the only risk weve ever been presented with is opportunity cost of cooldowns.

Those are hardly the two choices a Holosmith faces. How about the one where you plan your heat level better so you can have the relevant bonuses and use the PF skills you need at any given time without exploding? (assuming you're not using PBM)

sorry no i didnt mean to imply those are anything but a subset of the choices a holosmith could possibly face... and that they are a subset that doesnt exist anywhere else in the game and arguably shouldnt exist ever by anets own policies of encouraging helpfulness and cooperation and discouraging getting ahead at the expense of others (and not limited to these specific concepts).

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@Adamantium.3682 said:

@kaesebrezen.3104 said:...Long Story short: the cooldown of ability 3-5 tied with their high generation doesn't allow for much planning on how to play forge - if you actually intend to press some buttons.

This is an odd way to end your post because I feel like you spent a few paragraphs explaining all the ways it requires you to make choices and plan how to benefit most from PF at any given moment.

"All the ways" to play sadly are very few.

If you want to press at least one button in Forge, you can enter Forge only below 50% heat.If you want to press more than one button in Forge, you can enter Forge only below 40% heat.If you want to press all buttons from 3-5, you can enter Forge only below 25% heat (after which, you are very limited in what you can do, leap a few times with auto-attack, auto-attack and corona burst, or just exit forge and cooldown earlier - as Photon Blitz and Shockwave are guaruanteed overheats by the time they're available again)

If you look at it from this standpoint, exiting Forge as soon as possible is the only reasonable option. Staying longer than the 6 second deactive cooldown just doesn't allow for more than auto-attacking and leaping, which ultimately only delays your heat depletion and next Forge cycle (and 3-5 ability usage). Going from there, the only way to do more in Forge is by changing heat and cooldown of abilities 3-5 (or removing AA costs).

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@"Robert Gee.9246" said:The kit lockout period on Photon Forge is to prevent players from circumventing the cooldown on on Deactivate Photon Forge. Swapping to a kit boots you out of photon forge mode, so without the lockout period on kits it would be easy to exit the mode early without using the Deactivate skill.

I don't think limiting an unrelated thing is the way to solve a problem. IMO there are many other, better ways to control that "early PF exit" without obstructing the use of kits.

Example:Activating a kit freezes PF. You don't gain or lose heat while you are in the kit. Changing to another kit keeps the freeze. Leaving the kit puts you back in PF with the heat as you had it before. This answer the problem you are pointing without interfering with other mechanics.

To be clear:IMO it IS OK if you consider the 6 second cooldown is needed to specifically limit the access to kits from pf.It is NOT OK if you only want to control PF leaving and you slow kits as colateral damage.In other words, if you consider that using kits in rapid succession with PF is BAD, please say so. If you don't, please improve this solution.

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@kaesebrezen.3104 said:

@Adamantium.3682 said:

@kaesebrezen.3104 said:...Long Story short: the cooldown of ability 3-5 tied with their high generation doesn't allow for much planning on how to play forge - if you actually intend to press some buttons.

This is an odd way to end your post because I feel like you spent a few paragraphs explaining all the ways it requires you to make choices and plan how to benefit most from PF at any given moment.

"All the ways" to play sadly are very few.

If you want to press at least one button in Forge, you can enter Forge only below 50% heat.If you want to press more than one button in Forge, you can enter Forge only below 40% heat.If you want to press all buttons from 3-5, you can enter Forge only below 25% heat (after which, you are very limited in what you can do, leap a few times with auto-attack, auto-attack and corona burst, or just exit forge and cooldown earlier - as Photon Blitz and Shockwave are guaruanteed overheats by the time they're available again)

If you look at it from this standpoint, exiting Forge as soon as possible is the only reasonable option. Staying longer than the 6 second deactive cooldown just doesn't allow for more than auto-attacking and leaping, which ultimately only delays your heat depletion and next Forge cycle (and 3-5 ability usage). Going from there, the only way to do more in Forge is by changing heat and cooldown of abilities 3-5 (or removing AA costs).

Are you considering any of the GM traits? It doesn't appear so, as your number crunching doesn't apply to any of them unless I missed something. If your heat limit is 100 it either won't cooldown, or you can remove 15 heat at a time with Dodges.

It seems like Holo traits are very build defining, especially the GMs. Similar to Daredevil your choice there will really change how the elite spec mechanic plays

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@Adamantium.3682 said:Are you considering any of the GM traits? It doesn't appear so, as your number crunching doesn't apply to any of them unless I missed something. If your heat limit is 100 it either won't cooldown, or you can remove 15 heat at a time with Dodges.

It seems like Holo traits are very build defining, especially the GMs. Similar to Daredevil your choice there will really change how the elite spec mechanic plays

Note: We're talking about PvE here.

1) PBM wants to maximize heat gen, so you simply go Corona, Photon Blitz, Shockwave, Leap on CD, Auto Filler. Then you're pretty much overheated. (pretty simplistic gameplay)2) Dodging is better done outside. Weakest filler, biggest benefit from dodging (1.5 seconds earlier to enter next Forge per dodge). As it's a burn based build, you will also be running focusing lense with dodge trait, so you want to enter forge as often as possible. Dodging outside of forge is maximizing focusing lense benefits.3) Capacity Storage just moves the whole game from 0-100 to 50-150 - you get permanent access to the 50% boosts. Permanent accesst to 50% heat boosts.

PBM changes how you play in forge for obvious reasons, but Storage and Dodgy Trait do not.

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Look... I don't know what the optimal rotations or heat management will be but I think it's pretty short sighted to say the Dodge trait will have no impact on heat management. It has 15 heat loss for a reason!

And how does ECSU not change how you play in forge if you have a lot more time in it and an extra heat level you may want to manage?

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