From the AMA with the Devs.

[Aceofsppades.6873]

@Zefiris.8297 said:

@Substatic.6958 said:I'm slightly glad. Other than Death Knight of WOTLK, I've never seen such a bigger FOTM mmorpg class as Scourge. This is due to Scourge being incredibly powerful in all game modes

It's not in PVE, actually. In PVE, it's mid-tier right now. Multiple classes easily outdamage scourges in real fights.

You should not care what nerfs do to meaningless benchmarks in a vacuum, you need to look at what these nerfs do to the actual ingame performance in real fights.

The bugfix is about a 2k dps loss. Which puts it at about 36k.

I long for the day when people start to understand what benchmarks actually are. And no, it's not a 2k DPS loss, it's more in the 3k+ range for the benchmark. The problem is: You lose the same amount or more in a real fight, due to the F5 reliance of our damage. Real fight dps is not the full benchmark for any class, so that 3k loss is actually pretty severe.

I long for the day when people have some actual perspective. even at 3k loss the benchmark is 35k that's at the high end of hot specs and considering anets plans to need other elite specs that's not a bad number to be at. Also in good raid statics relative placements of bench marks generally translate into relative placements on bosses with the exception of boss mechanics that punish some classes more than others.

[Avigrus.2871]

They will not just bug fix the shade stacking.

There will be bug fixes and heavy nerfs... get ready.

[Kam.4092]

@Avigrus.2871 said:They will not just bug fix the shade stacking.

There will be bug fixes and heavy nerfs... get ready.

I wish people would stop making comments like this literally everywhere. What's the point? I mean get ready for what exactly? We don't even know what they'll be doing.

I'm guessing you were the same type of person raging over the pre launch nerfs to Scourge, and look how that turned out. We ended up doing great throughout the game. We just need to be tuned down now like other builds.

I'm starting to think some of the people on here like nerfs, because they never shut up about bracing for them, etc. It's starting to get annoying. It's like everyone has some Necro nerf PTSD.

[Ryouzanpaku.1273]

Whine is strong with this one....

1) from the start everyone knew shades damage should not overlap2) scourge damage on stationary melee target is too high (ie benchmarks)3) damage on moving/ranged target is not that great (ie real play)

I hope AN will fix shade overlap together with fixing F5 on shades and maybe also tuning up timer on Demonic Lore... but lets wait till it is done and save praising/whining till then...

[Caccis.9087]

@Ryouzanpaku.1273 said:Whine is strong with this one....

1) from the start everyone knew shades damage should not overlap2) scourge damage on stationary melee target is too high (ie benchmarks)3) damage on moving/ranged target is not that great (ie real play)

I hope AN will fix shade overlap together with fixing F5 on shades and maybe also tuning up timer on Demonic Lore... but lets wait till it is done and save praising/whining till then...

Most bosses are really stationary at PVE tho. Why should Demonic Lore be nerfed??? The shade bug fix alone puts Scourge near other classes who are not named firebrand and weaver.

[Ryouzanpaku.1273]

@Caccis.9087 said:Most bosses are really stationary at PVE tho. Why should Demonic Lore be nerfed??? The shade bug fix alone puts Scourge near other classes who are not named firebrand and weaver.

By Demonic Lore tuneup I meant lowering the internal cool-down (to 1s maybe) to compensate for loss of dps on moving targets.

[LanfearShadowflame.3189]

I don't see how people are surprised by this. This was a concern that was brought up during the preview weekend, that there was a bug with multiple shades hitting a single target. The dev that designed scourge clearly stated during the twitch demo of the elite that sand shades weren't intended to stack affects. They were expressly designed so only 1 shade could affect a player, thus forcing the necro to spread the shades for better area coverage. This is not the most useful necessarily, in all scenarios, which was the whole point of the grandmaster skills that took you from 3 possible shades, to 1. It was only a matter of time before this was fixed.

I do think they need to fix the bug, and then take some time to evaluate before applying nerfs to skills and traits for the spec. Unfortunately, I do feel they are likely to overreact and over-nerf some of the skills based on the values the bug presents. Which, if they go that route, then they may as well just leave the bug in. One or the other, not both.

[pah.4931]

So I should go ahead and bank on reaper buffs then? :P

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

When it comes to nerfing Necros, ANet has historically gathered ideas of what can be nerfed, then implement all of them at once.

[Avigrus.2871]

@Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:When it comes to nerfing Necros, ANet has historically gathered ideas of what can be nerfed, then implement all of them at once.

This. A-net don't know how to nerf gradually/slightly when it comes to this class.

[BURDZ.5376]

it was fun while it lasted, ladies and gents :s

[mazut.4296]

@LanfearShadowflame.3189 said:I don't see how people are surprised by this. This was a concern that was brought up during the preview weekend, that there was a bug with multiple shades hitting a single target. The dev that designed scourge clearly stated during the twitch demo of the elite that sand shades weren't intended to stack affects. They were expressly designed so only 1 shade could affect a player, thus forcing the necro to spread the shades for better area coverage. This is not the most useful necessarily, in all scenarios, which was the whole point of the grandmaster skills that took you from 3 possible shades, to 1. It was only a matter of time before this was fixed.

I do think they need to fix the bug, and then take some time to evaluate before applying nerfs to skills and traits for the spec. Unfortunately, I do feel they are likely to overreact and over-nerf some of the skills based on the values the bug presents. Which, if they go that route, then they may as well just leave the bug in. One or the other, not both.

And yet again I will remind you. They said they want scourges to spread their Shades, but then they took that option by making really only 1 shade to be up at a time. Which is killing their own design after it was born... pretty da*n huge design mistake if you ask me. That way they completely cut the "area control" from the scourge...

[Mina Ion.7852]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it in the description of the Shade abilties that each target can only be affected once by each pulse? I only PVE myself, but I've only ever placed a single Shade in any given spot and never overlapped them if I could help it based on that knowledge. Obviously, if people are stacking three Shades on top of each other, and each pulse hit the same target three times, it would seem to be a bug, no?

[kharmin.7683]

@Mina Ion.7852 said:Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it in the description of the Shade abilties that each target can only be affected once by each pulse? I only PVE myself, but I've only ever placed a single Shade in any given spot and never overlapped them if I could help it based on that knowledge. Obviously, if people are stacking three Shades on top of each other, and each pulse hit the same target three times, it would seem to be a bug, no?

Multiple players stacking shades to overlap?

[Mina Ion.7852]

@kharmin.7683 said:

@Mina Ion.7852 said:Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it in the description of the Shade abilties that each target can only be affected once by each pulse? I only PVE myself, but I've only ever placed a single Shade in any given spot and never overlapped them if I could help it based on that knowledge. Obviously, if people are stacking three Shades on top of each other, and each pulse hit the same target three times, it would seem to be a bug, no?

Multiple players stacking shades to overlap?

Oh! Multiple players stacking shades. Yeah, that shouldn't be nerfed. It would effectively make it useless to have more than a single Scourge in your group.

[fsior.1072]

@Kam.4092 said:

@mazut.4296 said:

@Kam.4092 said:RIP 3k-4k of our DPS

That will be acceptable. i expect twice as much... There is no way around, we are going down as usual...PS: I don't understand the stacking complaint?! The Sand Savant is an implemented stacking. Whats the problem with stacking 1 shade+ the player? Because stacking more then 1 shade is only good against stationary boss enemies and only because of Sand Soul and Sadistic Searing. How are this so powerful?! I don't see the problem...

Even if it is like 6-8k, I'd rather play Scourge over the horrible mess that Reaper was. It won't get nerfed that hard though. I hate that Combo Field kitten. Call me optimistic, but I don't think it would be a super hard nerf. They mentioned that balancing Shades would allow more damage from other areas. Maybe they would be nerfing stacking, but reducing the Demonic Lore ICD. Who knows? With us being without Death Shroud, it means we can't be nerfed too hard. I'd expect things like Demonic Lore having the ICD removed to compensate, or buffing the Burning from Sadistic Searing. I don't see Scourge being destroyed, just because Shades didn't work like the community wanted them to.

Either way, I'm not going to rage nonstop. There's too many people that think nerfs create end of the world scenarios, which make no sense. Nothing forces you to switch classes, it's your own choice. I really wish more people just enjoyed games, instead of always wanting to be the best/near top tier always. Reaper was usable in Raids, and people still cleared fine.

The GW2 community really takes benchmarks too seriously as well. It's easy to clear Raids without even hitting near what a "meta" group should hit. You can even clear without 100% Quickness uptime, etc. The [qT] guild doing the benchmarks even says this. Also, pretty much every player, but a select few can even hit those benchmarks. It's more about what a class is capable of in a maxed out situation. These numbers should never decide what a person enjoys. People that truly enjoy Necro will stay Necro like I will.

Also for PvP/WvW, too many expect a class to carry them. A Damage nerf doesn't equal completely helpless, etc. A lot of this is just mental stuff driven by a toxic community.

I expect to get hated on in replies to my post, but to me it's just how I feel. I'm annoyed that so much of Scourge's damage is from Shades, because it limits the spec on heavy movement fights. I'm fine with nerfing stacking, and buffing our damage in other ways. They basically said they'd be doing this in the other AMA replies about Scourge.

Also remember when they nerfed Scourge before PoF even launched. Everyone was raging and said we'd be kitten, but we ended up being the best Elite. Look at this as an example of how the Necromancer community overreacts to any mention of changes. Scourge will never be below Reaper.

I'm just going to enjoy the game like always.

If you are a raider, getting that top tier DPS is necessary, especially if you want to do CM's. Nerfing Scourge too hard takes them out of the lineup for raiding.

[Umbramare.9156]

@Exqq.7451 said:

@Kam.4092 said:RIP 3k-4k of our DPS

That still puts us at 33-35k. More than acceptable. And honestly, it makes shades work as intended.

Edit: Also, this will kill Power Scourge, since about 20%'ish of the dps is achieved by condi from multi shade stacking, so... :(

if you count in the torment on f1 that wont be stacking anymore + dhuumfire not proccing, you can count a 6k+ dps loss.32k dps with slow ramp, while weaver starts off with 40k+ and sits at 36k+ on small hitbox.Even mirage would be above that dps and mirage will already not see play outside of matthias.

If you think necro will see any more play in raids you're horribly mistaken.

[ThomasC.1056]

@Zoltreez.6435 said:

@Substatic.6958 said:There's more btw,Scourge is an outlier with high value both defensively and offensively. I’d like to separate those options a bit more. "**

Get those alts ready.

What kitten Defense ?

seriously i Dare a DEV to freaking come here in this Topic and freaking TELL us whats that OMG Defense he is talking about.... because thats a Load of Horse kitten right there....

that post alone now pissed me off more then anything ever in this freaking game and it came from a freaking DEV.................

IS ANYONE PLAYS A kitten NECRO IN THE OFFICE AT ALL ????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Its like everytime the Design team tries to Make something useful for necro the balance team then comes and says NO kitten necros.....

Yep, I'm still wondering where the oh so OP defense is... You can do much against ranged, against foes who kite, and even conditions are a pain if they can be quickly reapplied. Barriers are a bit underwhelming too. And even the damage output isn't as crazy as it seems, because it's bound by ground control, and anyone with a brain can get out of your AoEs. Maybe in an omniblob situation, the scourge can be powerful, but in small scale, it's not as easy as reaper.

[LanfearShadowflame.3189]

@mazut.4296 said:

@LanfearShadowflame.3189 said:I don't see how people are surprised by this. This was a concern that was brought up during the preview weekend, that there was a bug with multiple shades hitting a single target. The dev that designed scourge

clearly stated

during the twitch demo of the elite that sand shades weren't intended to stack affects. They were expressly designed so only 1 shade could affect a player, thus forcing the necro to spread the shades for better area coverage. This is not the most useful necessarily, in all scenarios, which was the whole point of the grandmaster skills that took you from 3 possible shades, to 1. It was only a matter of time before this was fixed.

I do think they need to fix the bug, and then take some time to evaluate before applying nerfs to skills and traits for the spec. Unfortunately, I do feel they are likely to overreact and over-nerf some of the skills based on the values the bug presents. Which, if they go that route, then they may as well just leave the bug in. One or the other, not both.

And yet again I will remind you. They said they want scourges to spread their Shades, but then they took that option by making really only 1 shade to be up at a time. Which is killing their own design after it was born... pretty da*n huge design mistake if you ask me. That way they completely cut the "area control" from the scourge...

As I understand it, we're supposed to be able to maintain 2 pretty steadily. 3 for short periods. Which, that seems ok. Ive not had a heck of a lot of chance to play with my scourge in depth yet. Of course, I see everyone running Sand Savant anyway which functions as though you have 3 up, so that seems a bit 'meh' anyway. Regardless, 20 second duration does seem a tad...short, for a lifespan. I wouldn't argue against the adjustment on some of the timing after the bug fix. I'd also like to see an increase on the range for Manifest Shade as well.

[Lexan.5930]

i just pray that they fix the multiple shade stacking issue in wvw, cuz i dont see it in raids, fractals or pvp too much

and i hope they only balance the defensive measures we have so that we dont see "NO NECRO" in lfg for the next foreseeable future.

[Lexan.5930]

@Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:When it comes to nerfing Necros, ANet has historically gathered ideas of what can be nerfed, then implement all of them at once.

necro gets slow nerfed, then huge nerfed, then slow buffs and even then people complain and want a nerf.

in pvp i see if all the time, calling necro a cheep build and easy win.

we can;t go invunerable, we lost our second health bar everyone complains about and we dont get invis, we dont get the crazy movement ability and we can't self buff like so many other classes, we can NOW only basicly steal boons when traited. Scourge in pvp adds more lockdown potential with shades, but omg do people remember the bunker chronomancer when HoT launched, it was literally untouchable when hot launched. boring games where home was always held by 1 mesmer and it was basicly a crap shoot at mid or no one had any points for like 3 minutes of just rotating and healing and blocking and invunerable.