How To Beat Rangers - A Secret l2p Guide

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

As of recently, the usual top dog metas are finally coming to a balance and people are complaining more than ever about Rangers. This is because players are not used to the idea that they can no longer push forward at a ranged character on flat ground in an open field, through virtue of sheer sustain alone, and then have enough resource left to bully it once they enter melee range. Rangers are now contending on more even ground with the usual top dog metas, and players must now be cautious when pushing a Ranger with a longbow. Because after recent nerfing, they won't have enough resource left for the easy bully after doing so, and they may find that the Ranger is dangerous once they reach melee range.

Some may argue that this is the way the game should be. Some may argue that they don't feel ranged attacks should be that threatening in GW2. But the most important thing to identify is the idea of: "Is it really OP in terms of what it is bringing to the intra-class dynamic? Or is it just annoying and a mechanic that you'd rather not see in play?" It is very important to distinguish between these two things while giving feedback. A good example of what I mean comes from a quote that someone once made in this forum, can't remember who it was, but he said something like this: "Imagine a class that only had 1 skill. That 1 skill when activated would grant a 50% chance to instantly downstate and kill the opponent targeted, and a 50% chance to instantly downstate and kill the player who clicked the skill. Although this would actually be perfectly balanced, it would be the most obnoxious skill that ever existed. And then players would come into the forum saying it was OP, even though it was perfectly balanced." Consider this, and the weight or lack of weight, of suggestions & feedback that misuse these two different definitions.

Anyway, this thread is about how to kill Rangers. How to help certain players overcome their l2p issues. Once they've recognized & learned a few simple things that they are doing wrong, they will quickly being to identify why Ranger is not used in any serious top tier play such as MATs. Rest assured that if a player can read this guide and learn from it, they will begin to recognize why bell curve and lower players complain so much about Ranger, whilst top tier players refuse to use Ranger in their team comps at all.

First, let us examine the 1v1 that is happening in this .gif

Upon first examination, it would appear that the Ranger in this .gif was OP. But is he really OP or did the Rifle Warrior do something wrong? Well:

1. The Rifle War sees the superior ranged class in the game approaching him with all of its CD ready to blow. Why did the War not reposition?
2. The Rifle War chooses to stand in the open and trade blows with a Ranger that he already knows will Sic Em burst and Invuln while coming at him. Why do that?
3. Why did the War not head to an LOS? If he had, he could have baited the burst & Invuln CDs, setting himself up for a counter push vs. the Ranger.
4. Why did the War not dodge roll? Why did he not block? Why did he not ect ect ect? Why did he stand there and eat an obvious Sic Em burst?

I'll tell you why, because it is a l2p issue. In the game of Guild Wars 2, there are certain things you do and don't do vs. certain classes/builds, and Ranger is no exception. You don't follow and get baited by a good Spellbreaker when he kites you because Spellbreakers are strongest while kiting. You don't 1v1 a Sagebrand on a node when you're a class that lacks the DPS to down it, who is going to be bullied by the Sagebrand. You don't stay to 1v2 a situation where the opponent is about to + with a Power Shiro, you leave before it even gets into range to Unrelenting Assault or Phase Traverse to you, because you already know you can't win that and you won't be able to disengage it if he gets within range. You don't push a good Holosmith with a class that has low CC output and not much stability/stun break. You don't stay to 1v1 a Condi Thief on a class with bad cleanse frequency. You don't push a Condi Mirage with something you already know you can't kill it with. You don't enter melee range and trade blows with a good Reaper when you already know it's going to mulch you with some 2 hit combo and a plethora of CCs. You do not go in to contest a side node and expect to win against a good Fire Weaver, when you already know it is currently the dominant side noder in the game. Ranger is no different. When a Ranger with a longbow comes around a corner, you do not ignore it when you already know what is about to happen and you don't walk at it with less than half of your skills on CD. You head to LOS if you are in no position to get aggressive with it, or you get real aggressive with if you are in a position to pressure him so he can't do his job.

The above sounds very simple, but what is it that is confusing players about this? Well, maybe it's not so much that they aren't recognizing this, as much as it is they are refusing to accept it. It is my firm belief that due to the first 3 quarters of Guild Wars 2's current history featuring ridiculously low ranged damage output, players came to know the game as that way and that is what they expect the game to feel like. We're talking the first years of Core and into HoT, ranged damage was ridiculously low and in no way dangerous. People had gotten used to this feel of the game where, combat was about tanky guys who waddle into nodes face to face and bonk each other on the head with CCs, not having to worry about the LB Druid off on the side who had no damage. In these times, worrying about LOS vs. ranged was of little to no consequence at all. But in the 4th quarter, Deadeyes and Soulbeasts showed up, bringing a lot of REAL ranged damage with them. And so the game changed a bit, demanding that players begin worrying about LOS vs. powerful ranged attacks. Above bell curve players accepted this new dynamic quickly, many of them appreciating it actually, and adapted as such. But bellow the bell curve, we see players who in every match, continue to play as if it were still an HoT low damage high sustain meta, waddling into mid node, and ignoring ranged attackers. Then when they die to that ranged damage, they come into the forum and complain about how OP and impossible it is to deal with. But the truth behind these complaints, is that they are playing like the rifle soldier in that .gif, and refusing to accept that ranged attacks are now functioning in Guild Wars 2, just like they do in any other game, which is something that needs to be paid attention to and LOSed.

The ultimate truth behind this l2p issue is that Ranger isn't even good in high tier competitive play. No serious MAT teams run Ranger if they want to win, and there are big reasons for this. Before you say "it's not a l2p issue" I'll say that it is a l2p issue, actually it might be the most l2p issue out of all l2p issues concerning GW2. But what is important to point out here, is where all of this confusion is coming from, about how a class could potentially feel OP bellow the bell curve but be bad for play in high tier. People like to say "We shouldn't balance around top tier play only" but you know what? We shouldn't balance around just the bell curve or bellow either. People have got to understand that crying for nerfs against a class that is potentially OP bellow the bell curve, sounds good from their perspective, but what they aren't seeing is that the higher tiered players aren't lying when they say the class sucks in high tier, and that the nerfs would eliminate the class's viability in high tier. There has to be a balanced compromise here, something that would lower the Ranger's strengths in low tiered play, but still provide it what it needs to contend in higher tiers as it already struggles. The answer is not hard numerical attribute tied nerfs. The answer is mechanical changes. But let me post up a chart that gives a ballpark estimate of how Ranger is performing in low tier vs. high tier, compared to other classes:

Argue & discuss opinions on how you'd change these ratings all you want, but the theory there-in is sound and we all know that some classes perform well in low tiers but bad in high tiers, and that other classes aren't so strong in low tiers but become very powerful in high tiers. When making suggestions, remember the theory behind the lines that you see here, and consider how a suggestion would effect all tiers of the class's performance, not just the tier that you play in.

What we're looking at here is that Ranger/Soulbeast is probably the strongest class in bellow the bell curve tiers, right alongside of Deadeyes which if I had listed a line for, would have been nearly identical to the progression of Ranger/Soulbeast. This is because of the long ranged pressure. In lower tiers, people do not take advantage of the mechanics provided to them. They ignore LOS options. They run directly straight towards ranged attackers when their gap closers & stealth's & teleports are on CD. They don't watch for telegraphs. They don't know anything about any class other than the one they main, so they don't know to count the skill use and CDs of the classes they are fighting. This makes defending against, approaching & neutralizing ranged attackers, a difficult thing to do for bellow the bell curve players. However in higher tiers above the bell curve, players are utilizing all of these counter play options & more, and then Ranger/Soulbeast's strengths begin to disappear to the point that they are not as viable of an option for high skill cap play as other classes are.

I want to agree with you Ranger haters that it is not balanced for a class to be super strong in lower tiers but drop out of viability in higher tiers. But even so, there is a certain balance in this progression that you have to admit. This type of balance is within a greater balance where classes like a Firebrand are just bad in low tiers because no one is organized and people don't know how to play the role of the class, but in high tiers it becomes literally "The MVP of the team" when everyone well knows the game and how to utilize all of the mechanics provided. <- This is all a l2p progression, concerning if something is strong or weak in low tiers, but strong or weak in high tiers. For those of you reading who are ready to admit this and accept it, rather than crying about how impossible it is to deal with a Ranger/Soulbeast, you are ready to read the final portion of this guide, which is about tackling your l2p issues so that you can turn that Ranger/Soulbeast into a middle to low tier contender against you.

HOW TO FIGHT A RANGER/SOULBEAST - I'm going to try and make this as simple as possible:

1. When a Ranger/Soulbeast with a longbow approaches you under any circumstances, you LOS. I don't care what you're doing, get out of the way. You would get out of the way of a Deadeye. You would get out of the way of a FA Weaver. You would get out of the way of a Static Discharge Holo. You would get out of the way of any other 1-2HKO build, so why not get out of the way of the Ranger/Soulbeast? You get out of the way and you LOS in a safe place while you plan your next move.
2. While you plan your next move, pay attention to if the Ranger/Soulbeast had used his Sic Em burst while approaching. If he did, all you have to do is wait 10s for it to run out while you LOS and then his burst is going to be on a 28s+ CD. He will have more than likely also used his Quickness buff, which will go on CD as well. When his burst utilities are on the 28s+ CD, you can go in to meet him on even ground with any class. If he did not use his burst CDs on approach, you need to bait his burst CDs while maintaining LOS stature.
3. Baiting the burst CDs is very easy to do. Poke out around the LOS and make it look like you intend to approach. If the Ranger/Soulbeast is a good player, it may take a few times to goad him into burning his burst. Get creative, figure it out, this is not hard to do. Once he initiates his burst, start LOSing again for 10s and get slippery. Turn around and meet him on even ground or counter him when the burst is burnt.
4. If it is a Core Ranger, he won't have a Sic Em burst but rather will be built to be tankier vs power damage and will have only moderate to low defensive value vs. condi. The Core Ranger will try to bank on Gazelle use for any level of surprise big burst damage. Aside from the Gazelle, his damage will be moderate compared to the rest of meta, almost all of it being only within Rapid Fire/Maul/Gazelle. This is only 3 things to watch out for, this isn't hard to do. Ranger/Soulbeast has nearly 80% of its damage output completely tied to 4 skills: Rapid Fire/Maul/Worldy "if it's soulbeast"/Gazelle. Sure other skills deal damage, but the damage pop from those 4 skills is what people are complaining about. With a Core Ranger, it won't be highly mobile going in for bursts and then leaving with mobility to refresh CDs and come back again like a DPS Soulbeast. The Core Ranger will try to brawl with you. But nevertheless, GET OUT OF THE WAY. Don't stand there and finish capping a node if you're getting busted with 1500 range projectiles. Get out of the way. If you feel you can't beat the Ranger, leave in the same way you'd leave if you felt you couldn't 1v1 a Fire Weaver. Just leave. If you feel you can beat the Ranger if you can gap close to him, go for it. Just be wise while approaching and don't overextend into a bad position where he can get a lead in damage before you close in to him. If you can get to him without sustaining a bunch of ranged damage on the way there, Rangers actually get out brawled by most of the classes while in close range. If you're talking every player in a game having equal skill level, Rangers get countered in close range by: Sagebrands, Condi Heralds, Holosmiths, Condi Thieves, Condi Mirage, Fire Weaver, Reapers. Then Rangers are met on even ground in close range by: Core Guardian Burst, Spellbreaker, Power Herald, Deadeyes & PW Spam, Scrapper. And then Rangers in close range can counter: Warriors, DP Thief SD Thief Staff DrD, Necro & Scourge, Power Mesmer/Mirage. A lot of people think the Ranger is so strong in melee ranger, which is just not true. But it has the illusion that this is true, because it comes in hot with a burst from 1500 range, removing a lot of resources from the opponent before it even gets into melee range, and then when it does the opponent is already hurt and must take defensive stature while the Ranger has a damage lead as an opening to get really aggressive while the opponent is trying to defensive play and/or escape. But if the opponent can avoid all of that ranged burst, the opponent will begin noticing that the Ranger won't come in for close range engagement, because something like a Spellbreaker or Holo at full resources or even a good Reaper, is a no no to even get close to if it has full resources. So understand that keeping yourself safe from the Maul/WI pressure plays is all about keeping yourself safe from the initial ranged approach bursting. If you allow yourself "Might I stress the word allow" to get hit with ranged bursting, the Ranger/Soulbeast will come in like a Herald when he knows he already has a big lead on your resources, and get really aggressive to finish the job before you can recover from it.
5. Understand that defending a node does not mean you have to stand on the node - If a Ranger/Soulbeast is approaching you while you are standing on a neutral node attempting to cap it, do not stand on the node and eat ranged bursting while trying to cap the node. You already know that the Ranger/Soulbeast is going to come and stand on the node with you to stop the cap and keep it neutral. If you allow him to get a lead in resources by allowing him to shoot you up like a fish in a barrel before he comes to stand on the node, you already know your chances of recovering from and winning that 1v1 is low. Why do that? What you should be doing is leaving the node as soon as the LB Ranger approaches to get to an LOS spot. When the Ranger realizes he isn't landing much damage if any at all against you, he will reconsider his approach to even stand on the node. This is again because Most of the classes can either counter him in close range with full resources or at least meet him on even ground. This situation will often result in the Ranger not even going to the node at all, because he doesn't want to get close enough to you, for you to be in gap closing range to go at him with full resources. So whether you stand on the node or stand off the node, that node is going to stay neutral. You don't have to stand on the node and take hits from 1500 range. The only difference between the two options is that standing on the node and taking hits grants the Ranger advantage, whereas leaving the node to a nearby LOS grants you advantage to jump the Ranger when it gets close if it really wants that node.
6. Understand how & why a Ranger/Soulbeast is approaching in the way that it is - So if it approaches you with a longbow first, it means he intends to play safely. He is going to try and land burst first, and then chose if he wants to stay to go in melee to finish the job or if he should bail off you and go somewhere else. If he approaches with GS first, be careful. That means he's a talented Ranger/Soulbeast that is very confident in his capabilities. It also means 1 of 2 other things: 1) he is not only planning on staying to fight, but he is already almost certain that he is going to be able to kill you, or 2) He knows you are a good enough of a player to where you'll avoid his initial ranged burst while going in, so he is saving it. This is generally a risky maneuver for the Ranger/SB to do, but great players can pull this off at the right times for very strong early leads in damage. He is going to come in with GS and try to bait YOU into burning your resources first, through trickery of GS 3 Swoop evades, GS 4 Blocking, and Smokescale Smoke Assault evading. When he identifies that you're resources are getting too low to defend against well coordinated bursting, he's going to start slapping around Mauls & WIs, and then eventually, usually at a terrible moment for you, he is going to swap to that LB 4 Knockback and push you off the node and burst you down with Rapid Fire. The best way to counter play these kinds of aggressive pushes from talented Ranger/Soulbeasts, is to immediately begin kiting away and up & down elevations and around LOS, to stay away from the damage output. If the Ranger begins to get a lead on you to where you are going into 50% resource status, just leave and kite. Let your CDs come back, cycle a bit, go back for another go. If you can approach him and dodge his first couple damage leads but YOU land YOUR damage, now you can bully him. Just don't stay in a bad fight. This is basic 101 stuff in conquest spvp.
7. THE MOST IMPORTANT THING TO KNOW ABOUT KILLING RANGERS/SOULBEASTS - Is that they are terrible in situations where they have to chase something that is kiting them around objects and up & down elevations. They have no teleports that ignore LOS, the best they get is Smoke Assault which requires LOS, and they have only 3 attacks that can get you through objects to win a kite fight. 1) Maul - This has decent range to hit & clip through thin objects that are the same horizontal level as the Ranger/SB, but it doesn't hit when players are even like 20 range above or lower than the Ranger. 2) Worldy - This has a lot of range to hit players through objects actually, and I've seen it hit players who are above or under the Ranger maybe up to about 200 range. 3) Barrage - This isn't exactly a lethal attack during a kite fight but it still can hit. Outside of those 3 attacks, the Ranger's got nothing else to win against you during a kite fight around and over and under objects, when you are abusing LOS. A good example of this is how a Ranger normally counters Necromancers while approaching from range, but when a Necro begins kiting around areas like the hedge maze in Eternal Coliseum, just about everything the Necro/Reaper/Scourge can do is an enormous AoE radius attack that clips through objects and hits the Ranger while the Ranger is trying to chase, whilst the Ranger cannot maintain equal damage output while chasing like this. The same goes while trying to chase a Spellbreaker who only needs to catch you with 1 good CC through a wall, then he can turn the fight right around in about 2s. Same for Holo, just a bad idea for the Ranger to chase these guys around and through objects. And then anything with LOS ignoring teleports, like a Core Burst Guard, is very very dangerous while trying to chase him around and through objects, because a good JI, Steal, Phase Traversal burst can come straight out of nowhere and not only turn a fight around, but possibly instantly down the Ranger. <- But yeah, these are the kinds of mechanics that above bell curve players are using, that bellow bell curve players are just not using at all. These kinds of tactics & mechanics are what ends up knocking Ranger/Soulbeast down to a middle tier class at best in the end, and saying that is if you're looking for reasons to give them credit.

If there was ever a l2p issue in GW2, this is it right here. You guys need to understand that long time Ranger mains are not "lying to you to defend their class." They are being completely serious with their feedback, and trying to explain to everyone the idea behind the lines that I drew up there, and that just tossing hard numeric attribute tied nerfs at Ranger/Soulbeast because it is strong at or bellow the bell curve, is not an adequate way to deal with anything. All that's going to do is even further lower the viability of Ranger/Soulbeast at higher levels of play, where it already struggles to begin with. So when everyone is tossing suggestions Ranger-Way, can we please take these aspects into consideration?

Anyway, that's how you turn Ranger/Soulbeast from a godless impossible to deal with killing machine, into a middle tier contender that can be easily dealt with. Not hard.

[Ragnar.4257]

Are there achievement points for how many different ways you can say "just LOS" ?

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@"Ragnar.4257" said:Are there achievement points for how many different ways you can say "just LOS" ?

A picture is worth a thousand words.

Here is another guide about LOSing. All of secret techniques are hidden within this meme:

[Ten.2617]

I m having happy days after switch from Engineer to Ranger.The Ranger is the NP class...

• Best ranged weapon (mass destruction at 1500 range. If fails, just go stealth and reposition).
• Best melee weapon (2 evades, 1 block, 1 gap/scape, 2 cc, 1 ohko skill (maul), 1 leap finisher, refills endurance, very high damage out (6k+ on autos for example),...).
• Best unblockable effect (makes all attacks unblockable for 6s).
• Best reveal effect (25% more damage).
• Best downed skills.
• No bugged skills.
• No randon effects.
• No useless skills and traits.
• No locked mechanic skills (even while downed).
• No self cc.
• No self burn.
• No self damage.
• No self kill.

[Avatar.3568]

The guide is pretty good, as a ranger main, I have to say this is pretty the way you can beat me, but it really depends, when I do no mistakes and "throw" my resources away

PS, With the correct build you did massiv dmg with lb on core ranger during vanilla and Hots

[Arkantos.7460]

i just flood all with mallyx condis

[WaRioRofthelight.8065]

Really like this honest review. Not playing Ranger but it is definitely true that sPvp is about knowing the strenghs and weaknesses of the oponents as well a its own.The L2play issue is not only true in sPvp but in all game modes. Guild Wars is not a hardcore game. Pve is quite easy as long as you know the encounter...People believe that they are going to be good just by doing a thing once or twice but to be good in sPvp or in PVE you have to practice...

[WaRioRofthelight.8065]

Really like this honest review. Not playing Ranger but it is definitely true that sPvp is about knowing the strenghs and weaknesses of the oponents as well a its own.The L2play issue is not only true in sPvp but in all game modes. Guild Wars is not a hardcore game. Pve is quite easy as long as you know the encounter...People believe that they are going to be good just by doing a thing once or twice but to be good in sPvp or in PVE you have to practice...

[Math.5123]

The reason rangers aren't seen in mAT tiers isn't because people know how to play against it. It's because there are better options.Why play dps slb when you can just stack heralds? Why play core ranger when you can just run fire Weaver? Class pride means nothing anymore, jumping on the next broken spec is all that matters.

It wasn't that long ago people won mATs on both boonbeast and perma evade soulbeast. It's just not top dog anymore.

Gazelle deserves to get nerfed, just like the Chrono bunker 2.0 deserved to get nerfed. Getting randomly chunked for potentially 70% of your max health because you failed to dodge a pet is just stupid design. Gazelle already has double cc, it shouldn't have one shot potential on top of that.Gs is also an extremely bloated weapon right now, namely #4. A 3 second block with a 1 second evade flipover tied with a hard cc is crazy. As of right now, it has extreme burst potential, a block, two evades, two hard ccs and disengage / stick potential.

I agree that the overall power level of ranger isn't the highest, but these high impact skills makes the class stupid to play against and saying "just los lol" is not really a valid argument.

[Thorstienn.1642]

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:The reason rangers aren't seen in mAT tiers isn't because people know how to play against it. It's because there are better options.Why play dps slb when you can just stack heralds? Why play core ranger when you can just run fire Weaver? Class pride means nothing anymore, jumping on the next broken spec is all that matters.

It wasn't that long ago people won mATs on both boonbeast and perma evade soulbeast. It's just not top dog anymore.

Gazelle deserves to get nerfed, just like the Chrono bunker 2.0 deserved to get nerfed. Getting randomly chunked for potentially 70% of your max health because you failed to dodge a pet is just stupid design. Gazelle already has double cc, it shouldn't have one shot potential on top of that.Gs is also an extremely bloated weapon right now, namely #4. A 3 second block with a 1 second evade flipover tied with a hard cc is crazy. As of right now, it has extreme burst potential, a block, two evades, two hard ccs and disengage / stick potential.

I agree that the overall power level of ranger isn't the highest, but these high impact skills makes the class stupid to play against and saying "just los lol" is not really a valid argument.

This.

Why do people always bring up MAT Metas to prove points? If something isn't meta it doesn't mean it's bad, it just means something is better: theoretically if herald got deleted tomorrow, we would see double Soulbeast.

And enough with "los" as the be all argument to any ranged burst in this game. That is only a partially acceptable statement in a 1v1 scenario, in groups the things that make Ranger or Deadeye dangerous is the fact you are "busy" fighting someone else.

In saying that, my only problem with rangers is the pets; both individually (Gazelle, Smokescale specifically) and as a merge (stat, buff, skill overload).

[Zexanima.7851]

Just because you CAN beat it and it isn't the strongest spec out there doesn't mean it's in a good spot or that it's enjoyable to play against. They are hard as hell to pressure or lock down due to all their stealth access, movement skills, blocks ect. They have wayyyy too much CC for being a highly mobile profession with the best single target ranged weapon in the game. Dumb amount of boon access but this is just the whole state of the game right now. Ranger is one of those professions that if they are good you just can't kill them. Also, maul is on a very short cooldown and hits for very high damage. As they say, the best defense is a good offense. It's hard to fight a ranger in melee range when you some how have to mitigate 8-10k hits every 3.5 seconds while hoping you don't get gazelled or smokescale CC'ed.

All that being said, Ranger isn't the absolute hardest thing to fight. I still groan every time I have to fight one though.

[HeadCrowned.6834]

If the ranger attacks you from range... just teleport to him. Ez.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@"Zexanima.7851" said:maul is on a very short cooldown and hits for very high damage. As they say, the best defense is a good offense. It's hard to fight a ranger in melee range when you some how have to mitigate 8-10k hits every 3.5 seconds while hoping you don't get gazelled or smokescale CC'ed.

The key to dealing with this that Rangers don't want you to know about, is that Maul/Wi are garbage with no quickness buff. This is one of the reasons why Rangers struggle in melee range against: Spellbreaker "lots of sudden boon removes" - All Mesmers if they are wise enough to use their boon removes when Ranger goes in close - Reapers who are wise in using their boon removes - And Thieves who are traited for boon removal.

If you have boon removes/converts, wait to use them for when the Ranger goes in close and pops quickness. Maul/Wi then becomes ridiculously easy to avoid due to slow animations. Furthermore, slow condition just absolutely neutralizes Ranger in close for the same reasons.

You know a big factor in why Ranger picked up strength is when they began adding tons of +concentration stat game wide, and a lot more access to quickness. The problem people are complaining about is not actually the Greatsword. Ranger Greatsword has been fine for like 6-7 years. But when you add too much quickness buff and concentration to elongate it, things like Maul & WI start becoming too practical to use, when originally these attacks were supposed to be a like "a haymaker", a high risk high reward if it connected. You know, something that should only be practical to land if someone is knocked down with a CC for 2s.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@HeadCrowned.6834 said:If the ranger attacks you from range... just teleport to him. Ez.

This! And hopefully he doesnt catch u with knock back when u appear close to him than rapid fire u from 100hp to 0 but if he does and u get up fast enough than easy as u just use line of sight cuz a structure to hide behind is 100% always available and at a short distance from u at all times :) dont kno how all u guys are dying to a ranger via ranged attacks when their so easy to avoid. Even rangers melee game is weak with their passive high pet damage and cc ontop of their own and it's not like maul does any damage so it's a get good issue. Plus just attack them as all their defensive boons and their gs block is nigh useless lol.

[Zexanima.7851]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@"Zexanima.7851" said:maul is on a very short cooldown and hits for very high damage. As they say, the best defense is a good offense. It's hard to fight a ranger in melee range when you some how have to mitigate 8-10k hits every 3.5 seconds while hoping you don't get gazelled or smokescale CC'ed.

The key to dealing with this that Rangers don't want you to know about, is that Maul/Wi are garbage with no quickness buff. This is one of the reasons why Rangers struggle in melee range against: Spellbreaker "lots of sudden boon removes" - All Mesmers if they are wise enough to use their boon removes when Ranger goes in close - Reapers who are wise in using their boon removes - And Thieves who are traited for boon removal.

If you have boon removes/converts, wait to use them for when the Ranger goes in close and pops quickness. Maul/Wi then becomes ridiculously easy to avoid due to slow animations. Furthermore, slow condition just absolutely neutralizes Ranger in close for the same reasons.

I don't think you're correct here. Sure, stealth or quickness makes maul way more dangerous but even without it the rate out which they can output such a high damage skill (that gives them a damage buff too no less) it is just too high. Imagine if warrior could just pop eviscerate on you every 3.5 seconds. It's highly telegraphed and rather slow but it wouldn't matter as they could just spam it between abilities more than you have defensive abilities/dodge rolls. It makes it even more troublesome when you have a AI nipping at your heels that could randomly CC you at any moment. Maul can give too much value for what little risk (low cd) you have for using it. Besides, they only really need to pressure you long enough in GS until they can just swap back to bow and kite, waiting for the next stealth/stun + maul/wi combo (which follows up a bow burst as you mentioned so you'll be down on resources).

[Asuran.5469]

@Zexanima.7851 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Zexanima.7851 said:maul is on a very short cooldown and hits for very high damage. As they say, the best defense is a good offense. It's hard to fight a ranger in melee range when you some how have to mitigate 8-10k hits every 3.5 seconds while hoping you don't get gazelled or smokescale CC'ed.

The key to dealing with this that Rangers don't want you to know about, is that Maul/Wi are garbage with no quickness buff. This is one of the reasons why Rangers struggle in melee range against: Spellbreaker "lots of sudden boon removes" - All Mesmers if they are wise enough to use their boon removes when Ranger goes in close - Reapers who are wise in using their boon removes - And Thieves who are traited for boon removal.

If you have boon removes/converts, wait to use them for when the Ranger goes in close and pops quickness. Maul/Wi then becomes ridiculously easy to avoid due to slow animations. Furthermore, slow condition just absolutely neutralizes Ranger in close for the same reasons.

I don't think you're correct here. Sure, stealth or quickness makes maul way more dangerous but even without it the rate out which they can output such a high damage skill (that gives them a damage buff too no less) it is just too high. Imagine if warrior could just pop eviscerate on you every 3.5 seconds. It's highly telegraphed and rather slow but it wouldn't matter as they could just spam it between abilities more than you have defensive abilities/dodge rolls. It makes it even more troublesome when you have a AI nipping at your heels that could randomly CC you at any moment. Maul can give too much value for what little risk (low cd) you have for using it. Besides, they only really need to pressure you long enough in GS until they can just swap back to bow and kite, waiting for the next stealth/stun + maul/wi combo (which follows up a bow burst as you mentioned so you'll be down on resources).

The quickness is mandatory. Great sword terribad without.

[Zexanima.7851]

@Asuran.5469 said:

@Zexanima.7851 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Zexanima.7851 said:maul is on a very short cooldown and hits for very high damage. As they say, the best defense is a good offense. It's hard to fight a ranger in melee range when you some how have to mitigate 8-10k hits every 3.5 seconds while hoping you don't get gazelled or smokescale CC'ed.

The key to dealing with this that Rangers don't want you to know about, is that Maul/Wi are garbage with no quickness buff. This is one of the reasons why Rangers struggle in melee range against: Spellbreaker "lots of sudden boon removes" - All Mesmers if they are wise enough to use their boon removes when Ranger goes in close - Reapers who are wise in using their boon removes - And Thieves who are traited for boon removal.

If you have boon removes/converts, wait to use them for when the Ranger goes in close and pops quickness. Maul/Wi then becomes ridiculously easy to avoid due to slow animations. Furthermore, slow condition just absolutely neutralizes Ranger in close for the same reasons.

I don't think you're correct here. Sure, stealth or quickness makes maul way more dangerous but even without it the rate out which they can output such a high damage skill (that gives them a damage buff too no less) it is just too high. Imagine if warrior could just pop eviscerate on you every 3.5 seconds. It's highly telegraphed and rather slow but it wouldn't matter as they could just spam it between abilities more than you have defensive abilities/dodge rolls. It makes it even more troublesome when you have a AI nipping at your heels that could randomly CC you at any moment. Maul can give too much value for what little risk (low cd) you have for using it. Besides, they only really need to pressure you long enough in GS until they can just swap back to bow and kite, waiting for the next stealth/stun + maul/wi combo (which follows up a bow burst as you mentioned so you'll be down on resources).

The quickness is mandatory. Great sword terribad without.

It's really not. I hit people without quickness all the time. Even without them being stunned I just use it when I see a predictable animation to cast it into. I do miss a good amount, but it doesn't much matter because I can just try again shortly.

[bravan.3876]

My problem starts when i play well enough vs the Ranger and his pet that the player needs to disengage with few hp left, can kite and reset cds and hp for ages during you barely can stand on point long enough for a decap without using defensive cds when not running a facetank spec vs the pet alone, what still attacks you with good impact. At least playing Ranger myself is fun though and not as boring and braindead as Weaver. Still Ranger has too powercreeped survival tools (lucky at least mostly active atm) but the amount of dodges, blocks and stealth and disengage potential combined with a high impact pet that still will pressure you even when you use los or when the Ranger itself cannot be attacked is too much.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

Well here is a good question for you guys who insist that Ranger/Soulbeast is too strong:

Is it Core Ranger or is it Soulbeast that is too strong?

@bravan.3876 @Zexanima.7851 @Psycoprophet.8107 @JETWING.2759

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Well here is a good question for you guys who insist that Ranger/Soulbeast is too strong:

Is it Core Ranger or is it Soulbeast that is too strong?

@bravan.3876 @Zexanima.7851 @Psycoprophet.8107 @JETWING.2759

I don't think either is to strong, maybe slb could use a small shave in boon access Id bet that will happen next patch anyway so.What I have a issue with is a few pets being broken while the rest of the pets needing a slight buff.No pet should provide hard cc unless it's from a merged pet skill and damage on certain pets gazelle for example needs lowered as well.Lastly a small increase on gs block I think is needed.I think those changes would still leave ranger as a whole strong and depending on how big patch goes might not even be enough nerfs lol.

[ZDragon.3046]

This is a good guide actually but it does not change the fact that some things on ranger are not proper and it still needs reductions in some areas.

Its about the ranger having to compromise to actually lose the fight which is why you zero'ed in on LoS so much how ever when you pointed out other professions. Other professions are often easily handled the moment you get in on them. Ranger does not follow this rule as it has blocks, and evades, and plentiful stealth access. Ideally rangers are by the way you defined them just as bad as scourge was in the since that you have to just leave when they show up because you cant contest a point when one shows up. You leave and give up the point to cover behind LoS wait for them to come in then fight them but if they are going to burst you give up again for LoS... Ideally i would agree but rangers are slightly too strong in melee range having the melee pressure of warriors but a weapon that gives them stronger ranged pressure should they needed it thats kind of a problem.

Damage modes need to be put in check, Plasma needs to go, Block needs reductions, so its literally not better than warrior block (thats a problem imo)your solutions to beating rangers are all mostly based around LoS which means they can do as they please movement wise and unless you have a port that ignores LoS (all classes dont have this) then ideally the advantage will just never be yours just LoS 4head. Don't mind the pet coming after you or anything etc.

Rangers are strong and this guide gives good tips how ever this does not in anyway mean that they dont need reductions in some areas for the general health of the game. I dont agree with leaving rangers / soul beast in their current state considering they undeniably do have a out right mechanical advantage in the most common ranger builds.

Ranger is not the only issue but simply saying its a L2P issue and trying to write it off as that alone is not the truth either and deep down you surely must know that. ITs like saying scourge on PoF launch was a L2P issue just don't stand in shade zone/shade range "Just use 1200+ range attacks 4head" No it was mechanically superior because a shade instantly melted players with no tell and not every class had range skills to deal with it and while rangers and soul beast are not nearly that bad most of your solutions as a L2P issue do take this kind of rout of approach.

Again good tips here heck some of the best tips any player has ever given.. it just does not excuse the fact that changes still need to be made.

[ZDragon.3046]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Well here is a good question for you guys who insist that Ranger/Soulbeast is too strong:

Is it Core Ranger or is it Soulbeast that is too strong?

@bravan.3876 @Zexanima.7851 @Psycoprophet.8107 @JETWING.2759

will also answer thisIts bothCore ranger is a very strong core stable profession at its base imo its one of the 3 strongest along side warrior, and guardian. Any elites that provide power creep ontop of these professions without realistic trade off makes them more potent.

There is a reason druid is not as strong as core ranger and soulbeastThere is a reason why berserker is not as strong as core warrior and spell breakeretc etc

[Zexanima.7851]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Well here is a good question for you guys who insist that Ranger/Soulbeast is too strong:

Is it Core Ranger or is it Soulbeast that is too strong?

@bravan.3876 @Zexanima.7851 @Psycoprophet.8107 @"JETWING.2759"

Ranger (and soulbeast) in general is not too strong but it is strong. My issue with it, as with most other professions right now, is it has too much of everything. Evades, blocks, stealth, leaps, a lot of CC, decent clease, high burst abilities, ect. Anet wants to have this trade-off mentality but there is rarely ever actually trade offs. It's just "that's worse, this is better so run that". Ranger is one of those professions (which most are to be fair) that don't really have any trade offs for anything. Great damage, great sustain, great ranged pressure, great melee capabilities, great boon access. For instance warrior is a great dualist and melee fighter, but it lacks range and is susceptible to kiting, guardian provides high damage and great team support but is super slow and crumples when hard focused. Professions just have too much of everything of which ranger is one. I don't want everyone to be under the impression "this is fine" just because you can beat it, it needs nerfs like everything else.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@ZDragon.3046 said:There is a reason druid is not as strong as core ranger and soulbeast

Allow me to explain exactly why that is. Good place to recap this:

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:These Druid players lately are spawning from a video that I had made, right before Druid was hit with wrath of god apocalypse nerfing. I know most of the players you're talking about, it's the same guys who whisper me trying to compare their Druid builds to mine. I'll guarantee you that 9 out of 10 of these Druid players you're seeing aren't even reaching a bottom plat 1 level. And I'll guarantee you that none of them are plat 2+. Druid builds really are bad man. Comparatively what's going on is that where a Druid has to wear Mender or Harrier to achieve heal output with CA Kit which destroys its DPS, other classes can match that self sustain while wearing DPS amulets and having quite seriously 4x the damage output or more.

I've already well explained the meat of the problem with Druid in several other threads. Here are a couple I could find:

• https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/77006/lets-talk-about-druid-competitively-after-pet-nerf-and-buffs-that-ca-deserves
• https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/82294/discussion-about-detrimental-weapon-kit-changes-for-all-classes
• https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/86250/reworking-underperforming-specs-druid-edition <- this one has good explanations in odd spots

But in a nutshell:

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

There are 2 primary mechanical issues with Druid:

1. Not only has the CA Kit been heavily heavily nerfed over the years, but DPS has clearly received large power creep across all classes. The CA Kit is not like other classes, who largely for the most part in this patching, have A LOT of passive sustain. Whether it is regen, or traits with effects like regen that stack with regen, or traits that heal so and so amount during an evade or whenever you receive a boon, ect ect, it's a lot of passive sustain that just works while you play normally. This allows those classes to maintain offensive pressure while healing and to never really have to enter a defensive cycle unless they are planning to straight disengage and leave. the Druid CA Kit on the other hand, requires that you stop all offensive pressure and dedicate time and combos to benefit some amount of healing. Which is completely useless after all of the CA Kit nerfs and how much DPS has been power crept. There is no amount of healing during CA Kit, even while wearing Mender or Harrier with an Altruism Rune, that is worth stopping all offensive pressure to attempt to use. This is because something like a Holosmith that is even just #1 spamming you, is dealing a lot more damage ouput than you are healing. So this creates an effect where any beneficial healing that comes off CA Kit, is pretty much this: "Pop CA #3 on a water field, quickly turn off your CA to get stealth disengage for reposition." If you don't do this, you spend too much time in CA Kit and too much time revealed while being a punching bag as you try to heal, because you have no offensive pressure, rendering the heal output useless. The only thing the Druid can do is sneaky pop that #3 and stealth to reposition. This means that the CA Kit isn't so much about healing anymore, but more so the 13 condi clear and stealth disengage. That is really the primary purpose of CA Kit usage during this patching. The Druid like everything else, is benefitting MOST of its healing, from passive sources, command regens, rugged growth, troll unguent use. What this means is that the CA Kit is countered by every single other Kit in the game. The only thing it is good for, is running for disengage/reposition. Druid no longer functions like old HoT Bunkers. It no longer has the burst heal output required to stay in position and brawl against this power crept meta, and even if it tries, it has no offensive pressure while using the kit.
2. The other problem is how CA Kit works. Not only is it on twice as long of a CD as a Forge or Shroud, but it requires a full tank to even activate. CA Kit can't just turn on with half a charge. The CA Kit gains a bit of fuel from attacking but this isn't nearly enough. The bulk of its fuel comes from heal ticks. To be able to even reliably activate CA Kit when you need it, it needs to be able to cycle quickly enough to actually put that 13 condi clear and stealth reposition to use. The only way to achieve this is with command regens and rugged growth, in conjunction with very specifically troll unguent. So the Druid, to even make CA Kit viable at all, is pigeonholed into Wilderness Survival and Beast Mastery. <- This is why Druids don't have damage, because they MUST use these trait lines for CA Kit to work. Now we have the 2nd part of this problem, which is the question of: "Do I care if my Druid has very low heal in CA Kit? Do I just mostly care about the 13 condi clear and free stealth?" Well, after all of the CA Kit nearing, even the CA Kit #3 is very poor self heal without some source of heal stat. If the Druid wants to benefit any healing output at all with the CA Kit, it has to wear at least an Altruism Rune, if it's attempting to run some kind of DPS on the Druid. And that +300 or w/e it is heal stat is like the bare minimum heal stat required to make CA Kit heal usage in some way useful. Remember, that CA Kit is ACTIVE USE KIT, not passive sustain. So to make such a kit useful while dropping all offensive pressure, requires quite a dedication to heal stat, if you plan on using the skills in it. If the Druid decides to bail on heal stat and go DPS, only using CA Kit to benefit condi clear and stealth reposition, he still faces the dilemma that the CA Kit usage isn't practical without command regens, rugged growth, and troll unguent to refill & cycle the full bar quickly enough. So even when a Druid is DPS, he still has to run Wilderness/Beast Mastery. Which generally leads to a Druid player recognizing that there is no reason to run DPS when the CA Kit is pretty much forcing the use of defensive trait lines to be functional. <- This is why Druids don't have damage.

But yeah, that's the 2 main problems. 1) CA Kit is too nerfed for an active skill use kit in a DPS power crept game where everything else has enormous passive sustain. 2) The mechanics of CA Kit require those heal ticks to fill its bar for use in a practical time frame, which forces the use of Wilderness/Beastmastery for the kit to be viable at all. Which seriously limits what the Druid can do in terms of finding ways to get DPS output, while still keeping the functionality of its kit viable. What Arenanet should do, is make 0 heal stat heals from CA Kit HIGHER, and then lower the coefficient gains from wearing heal stat amulets. This way Druids can organize for more DPS output, but can't build around being a solid 1v2 Bunker so easily.

Before we get to "I've seen some good high damage Condi Druids or maybe even power Druids" I dunno about that. I think what people are seeing is when a Druid is being ignored for the most part in the match, because it is the least of the team's worries, and so he is actually being allowed to fill his CA Kit at a slow pace. Then someone goes around a corner or something and tries to engage it on a side node, after the first 3+ minutes of the match after it finally has its CA Kit full. In this event, a Skirmishing/Sage Condi Druid will have a short opening to launch an aggressive play on you because his CA Kit happens to be full, and so he has an opening to bomb you and stealth disengage to get away with it. Or if it was a GS Axe/Axe wielding Druid, he'll be able to go in for a Soulbeast like burst and be able to stealth disengage once to get away with it, before it's going to take him an inordinate amount of time to refill that bar again. But I am absolutely guaranteeing you, that if you were to try and 1v1 these Druid builds like this, you'd notice that the normal average encounter with them, will result in you being able to kill the Druid before it ever gets to use its CA Kit even once. <- And this is why Druids get pigeonholed into Wilderness/Beastmaster for that regen, growth, troll.

Telling you right now that anyone who runs Druid without Wilderness/Beastmastery is hindering themselves. If they want to stray from these mechanics, they will have a much stronger performance in every way by running Core or Soulbeast. Any Druid spec that is not Wilderness/Beastmastery is garbage compared to Core/Soulbeast. This really is unfortunately true. And even Wilderness/Beastmastery variants, just don't perform well after pet nerf and Ancestral Grace nuke. If we can get a bit of nerfing to DPS power creep and/or buffing to Druid in general, it could be a contender again. But as of now, the class is completely mechanically and statistically impaired compared to other Bruiser specs that exist right now.

[Vancho.8750]

It is not L2P issue, it is just bloated design, some old design decisions that clash with the new ones and you get stupid shit like one shots ( for everyone "it is not one shot cause you need to do this and that nya" if it murders in short amount of time it is a one shot), so atm ranger is good in melee and ranged at the same time because of their defensive and offensive capabilities it is not the best but damn sure it is better than most one purpose builds, like most other multipurpose stuff, it has to give in somewhere, some purity of purpose. Same as mesmer and DE, the whole CC into burst gets old pretty quick, the ranged abilities are not that well telegraphed no one will notice someone at 1500 range doing headstands cause it is kinda off screen, the projectile should be telegraphed and it shouldn't be that spammy cause managing to survive the first burst idk with some prophetic powers, ain't that cool cause you know that the next wave is coming in 10 seconds or so and you ain't got your ou shit button anymore.People dislike that most of the time there isn't much risk reward builds, the low effort ones get rewarded at the end.