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Light /Medium /Heavy in Wvw 13% dmg reduction matter!


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@RisenHowl.2419 said:

@RisenHowl.2419 said:You can run anything as a tag, but preferably you should run a dps/cc class. If you're at the front of the group and your healing/boon skills are mostly forwards facing (heal firebrand, scrapper) then you aren't helping the group at all. Whereas if you're a dps class (dps fb, dps scrapper, spb, chrono, reaper, etc) you can generate downs or CC so your group always has people to run over and generate rallies.

Your duty first and foremost as comm is surviving and directing your squad. There is a reason why no commander runs full zerker for long (let's not even consider scum tactics like commander focus which happens seldom enough on EU).

Firebrand excells at personal cooldowns in areas of reflect, aegis, stability, resistance and stability as well as condi cleanse. More than half his skills are area effects and not necessary forward facing, that's only the mantras and even there, the elite stunbreak is invaluable. Unless you have your personal firebrand for your commander group, which would still be even stronger as double firebrand. Your personal damage or cc of a single person means sqwat in a 50 people squad (and is even more hilarious when running minstrel).

If you have to rely on the commanders cc or damage, your squad is trash and/or you have literally 0 wvw guild players. Which is the equivalent of of comparing open world pve content to fractal CMs. Sure, you can play anything you want, at some point though you need to have at least some people who know what their job is.

Mesmer/mirage/chrono commanders sacrifice a ton of utility skills in favor of more personal invul (way less with the changed F4 on chrono) with access to some utility skills (veil/portal) which are only needed on 1-2 members in squad. More doable now that scourge has lost its 10 player cap, still less than ideal unless you get focused very hard (again, absolute scum tactic) and have a reliable backup support fb player.

You can very comfortably drive with a zerker spb, if you're dying on one it's a l2p issue =/. If anything it's easier to drive on zerker than play one in the group since most of the healing and boons are directed at you if you're tagged.

cleanse mantra provides most of your condi clear while both shield and heal mantra are forward facing aegis applications. the pbaoe radius on the mantras is pretty small, so unless your group is right on top of you at all times (which they wont be, since you move and they follow) then you're not applying half of your kit to your subgroup.

Tome skills (especially F1-3, F2-2,4,5 and F3-3,4), MI (if used as comm), Stand your ground, shield 5, Staff 2 are all not forward facing area skills. Most of those skills are insanely useful when dropped by the commander who is leading the charge like an area resistance field so following players have an easier time.

Opening F2 and using F2-5 ar the correct time will outperform your clense mantra, not to mention that F2-2 and repeat use of F2-5 will put you far ahead of any mantra you have, IF you are absolutely unable to use aboutface.

Warrior is literally the only class which can lead on zerker, and that's due to it's over the top self sustain and auto proc stability. So yes, if you can make yourself immune or unkillable for 30 seconds before gear and require only 1 skill on your skill bar (WoD), then you can lead. A warrior directed by the commander will still be way more useful since he can more freely engage.

@RisenHowl.2419 said:Driving on a mes means you always have veil, portal, focus pull, shield stun, stab, and several invulns available whenever you want them. Driving on a spb means you will always have a bubble and CC where and when you want it, along with personal invulns out the kitten so your group is never without a tag.

Driving on a Firebrand you will always have stability for 20 people at the start (if we consider a Firebrand is dedicated to the comm group in all scenarios. Good luck leading on any class beside fb without one), area resitance field, reflects (to protect siege from blockers ubtil gens are built), basic area cleanse (which allows your support tempest to start on earth and/or remain on earth longer), staff 5, 3 blasts for smoke/heal/cleanse midfight and a small aoe pull on F1-3.

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@Svarty.8019 said:

@"Skorpion.4850" said:It's pointed elsewhere (pvp forum), what's t the difference in armor class if everyone has the same power output beyond the logic of glass cannon.

When you are commanding as a light class and you are the " head of the turtle", that 13% could make the difference between your party heals and your enemies damage.

I'm not asking to lower the damage of heavy class since the Big Numbers meta but I'm demanding at least to have same treatment damage reduction wise

If that's going to happen, can we also look at the HP pools for the different classes, too please? I mean, why are warriors HEAVILY armoured, with MAX health AND potential for high DPS, while guardian is LOW health?

I bet everybody forgot that was a thing. /sigh

I bet you also forgot that warrior is a full melee class with not as much dmg mitigation and sustain as guard, while guard has viable ranged options.If you put them on the same healthpool you would create an unkillable monster.

And dont come with the "but warrior op reee" argument. They have basically not protection, no good regeneration, no blinds, no aegis and mostly rely on very small heals over time, that are not good to heal back from bursts.

If you give guard those free vita stats, he can spend all those points into some other stat, that would just make him more op than he already is.

Same goes for other classes, why gives mesmer or thief for example the same base defensive stats as warrior, when they have so many evades, good range options ontop of stealth?

Imagine a thief with plate and high health, good luck killing that thing.

Eles are already flamed in the pvp forum for being too hard to kill, imagine them with ~23k health and heavy armor, yikes.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@RisenHowl.2419 said:You can run anything as a tag, but preferably you should run a dps/cc class. If you're at the front of the group and your healing/boon skills are mostly forwards facing (heal firebrand, scrapper) then you aren't helping the group at all. Whereas if you're a dps class (dps fb, dps scrapper, spb, chrono, reaper, etc) you can generate downs or CC so your group always has people to run over and generate rallies.

Your duty first and foremost as comm is surviving and directing your squad. There is a reason why no commander runs full zerker for long (let's not even consider scum tactics like commander focus which happens seldom enough on EU).

Firebrand excells at personal cooldowns in areas of reflect, aegis, stability, resistance and stability as well as condi cleanse. More than half his skills are area effects and not necessary forward facing, that's only the mantras and even there, the elite stunbreak is invaluable. Unless you have your personal firebrand for your commander group, which would still be even stronger as double firebrand. Your personal damage or cc of a single person means sqwat in a 50 people squad (and is even more hilarious when running minstrel).

If you have to rely on the commanders cc or damage, your squad is trash and/or you have literally 0 wvw guild players. Which is the equivalent of of comparing open world pve content to fractal CMs. Sure, you can play anything you want, at some point though you need to have at least some people who know what their job is.

Mesmer/mirage/chrono commanders sacrifice a ton of utility skills in favor of more personal invul (way less with the changed F4 on chrono) with access to some utility skills (veil/portal) which are only needed on 1-2 members in squad. More doable now that scourge has lost its 10 player cap, still less than ideal unless you get focused very hard (again, absolute scum tactic) and have a reliable backup support fb player.

You can very comfortably drive with a zerker spb, if you're dying on one it's a l2p issue =/. If anything it's easier to drive on zerker than play one in the group since most of the healing and boons are directed at you if you're tagged.

cleanse mantra provides most of your condi clear while both shield and heal mantra are forward facing aegis applications. the pbaoe radius on the mantras is pretty small, so unless your group is right on top of you at all times (which they wont be, since you move and they follow) then you're not applying half of your kit to your subgroup.

Tome skills (especially F1-3, F2-2,4,5 and F3-3,4), MI (if used as comm), Stand your ground, shield 5, Staff 2 are all not forward facing area skills. Most of those skills are insanely useful when dropped by the commander who is leading the charge like an area resistance field so following players have an easier time.

Opening F2 and using F2-5 ar the correct time will outperform your clense mantra, not to mention that F2-2 and repeat use of F2-5 will put you far ahead of any mantra you have, IF you are absolutely unable to use aboutface.

Warrior is literally the only class which can lead on zerker, and that's due to it's over the top self sustain and auto proc stability. So yes, if you can make yourself immune or unkillable for 30 seconds before gear and require only 1 skill on your skill bar (WoD), then you can lead. A warrior directed by the commander will still be way more useful since he can more freely engage.

@RisenHowl.2419 said:Driving on a mes means you always have veil, portal, focus pull, shield stun, stab, and several invulns available whenever you want them. Driving on a spb means you will always have a bubble and CC where and when you want it, along with personal invulns out the kitten so your group is never without a tag.

Driving on a Firebrand you will always have stability for 20 people at the start (if we consider a Firebrand is dedicated to the comm group in all scenarios. Good luck leading on any class beside fb without one), area resitance field, reflects (to protect siege from blockers ubtil gens are built), basic area cleanse (which allows your support tempest to start on earth and/or remain on earth longer), staff 5, 3 blasts for smoke/heal/cleanse midfight and a small aoe pull on F1-3.

All of which you get by having a fb in your party, doesn't need to be you driving on it. Driving on a fb still means wasted forward cones man =/

How exactly do you think you're applying g stab to 20 targets anyways? You get 10 with SYG but it'll prioritize the same people you would apply stab to with your mantra or f3 tome so you aren't going to get extra targets

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@RisenHowl.2419 said:

@RisenHowl.2419 said:You can run anything as a tag, but preferably you should run a dps/cc class. If you're at the front of the group and your healing/boon skills are mostly forwards facing (heal firebrand, scrapper) then you aren't helping the group at all. Whereas if you're a dps class (dps fb, dps scrapper, spb, chrono, reaper, etc) you can generate downs or CC so your group always has people to run over and generate rallies.

Your duty first and foremost as comm is surviving and directing your squad. There is a reason why no commander runs full zerker for long (let's not even consider scum tactics like commander focus which happens seldom enough on EU).

Firebrand excells at personal cooldowns in areas of reflect, aegis, stability, resistance and stability as well as condi cleanse. More than half his skills are area effects and not necessary forward facing, that's only the mantras and even there, the elite stunbreak is invaluable. Unless you have your personal firebrand for your commander group, which would still be even stronger as double firebrand. Your personal damage or cc of a single person means sqwat in a 50 people squad (and is even more hilarious when running minstrel).

If you have to rely on the commanders cc or damage, your squad is trash and/or you have literally 0 wvw guild players. Which is the equivalent of of comparing open world pve content to fractal CMs. Sure, you can play anything you want, at some point though you need to have at least some people who know what their job is.

Mesmer/mirage/chrono commanders sacrifice a ton of utility skills in favor of more personal invul (way less with the changed F4 on chrono) with access to some utility skills (veil/portal) which are only needed on 1-2 members in squad. More doable now that scourge has lost its 10 player cap, still less than ideal unless you get focused very hard (again, absolute scum tactic) and have a reliable backup support fb player.

You can very comfortably drive with a zerker spb, if you're dying on one it's a l2p issue =/. If anything it's easier to drive on zerker than play one in the group since most of the healing and boons are directed at you if you're tagged.

cleanse mantra provides most of your condi clear while both shield and heal mantra are forward facing aegis applications. the pbaoe radius on the mantras is pretty small, so unless your group is right on top of you at all times (which they wont be, since you move and they follow) then you're not applying half of your kit to your subgroup.

Tome skills (especially F1-3, F2-2,4,5 and F3-3,4), MI (if used as comm), Stand your ground, shield 5, Staff 2 are all not forward facing area skills. Most of those skills are insanely useful when dropped by the commander who is leading the charge like an area resistance field so following players have an easier time.

Opening F2 and using F2-5 ar the correct time will outperform your clense mantra, not to mention that F2-2 and repeat use of F2-5 will put you far ahead of any mantra you have, IF you are absolutely unable to use aboutface.

Warrior is literally the only class which can lead on zerker, and that's due to it's over the top self sustain and auto proc stability. So yes, if you can make yourself immune or unkillable for 30 seconds before gear and require only 1 skill on your skill bar (WoD), then you can lead. A warrior directed by the commander will still be way more useful since he can more freely engage.

@RisenHowl.2419 said:Driving on a mes means you always have veil, portal, focus pull, shield stun, stab, and several invulns available whenever you want them. Driving on a spb means you will always have a bubble and CC where and when you want it, along with personal invulns out the kitten so your group is never without a tag.

Driving on a Firebrand you will always have stability for 20 people at the start (if we consider a Firebrand is dedicated to the comm group in all scenarios. Good luck leading on any class beside fb without one), area resitance field, reflects (to protect siege from blockers ubtil gens are built), basic area cleanse (which allows your support tempest to start on earth and/or remain on earth longer), staff 5, 3 blasts for smoke/heal/cleanse midfight and a small aoe pull on F1-3.

All of which you get by having a fb in your party, doesn't need to be you driving on it. Driving on a fb still means wasted forward cones man =/

I've already explained how the mantras are not the only skills in a firebrands arsenal. Also only applies if you can absolutely not aboutface your squad AND no one is walking inside your hitbox.

How exactly do you think you're applying g stab to 20 targets anyways? You get 10 with SYG but it'll prioritize the same people you would apply stab to with your mantra or f3 tome so you aren't going to get extra targets

So we are now comparing firebrand driver to other classes+firebrand?

I was keeping it simple (assuming any lead had an extra firebrand at their disposal) but if you want I can explain to you how literally every other squad based class sacrifices more than firebrand (except mesmer who sacrifices group support for utility when leading), most of all warrior who directly benefits from being able to both better engage, harass and cleave when not tag.

EDIT:It comes down to 3 points:A.) firebrand support is needed in every group in the current meta (due to necessity of stability) (this is the big one)B.) firebrand support's job is inside the squad and at the front-line (unlike say warrior who is better of free roaming)C.) firebrand loses directional advantage with mantras IF he can't aboutface and no one is on tag. The remainder of his kit still allows him to operate at full capacity those skills are either meant for frontal use (staff line, F1-3, axe 3, etc) or are targeted around the character (shouts, essential tome skills, blasts, etc)

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@RisenHowl.2419 said:You can run anything as a tag, but preferably you should run a dps/cc class. If you're at the front of the group and your healing/boon skills are mostly forwards facing (heal firebrand, scrapper) then you aren't helping the group at all. Whereas if you're a dps class (dps fb, dps scrapper, spb, chrono, reaper, etc) you can generate downs or CC so your group always has people to run over and generate rallies.

Your duty first and foremost as comm is surviving and directing your squad. There is a reason why no commander runs full zerker for long (let's not even consider scum tactics like commander focus which happens seldom enough on EU).

Firebrand excells at personal cooldowns in areas of reflect, aegis, stability, resistance and stability as well as condi cleanse. More than half his skills are area effects and not necessary forward facing, that's only the mantras and even there, the elite stunbreak is invaluable. Unless you have your personal firebrand for your commander group, which would still be even stronger as double firebrand. Your personal damage or cc of a single person means sqwat in a 50 people squad (and is even more hilarious when running minstrel).

If you have to rely on the commanders cc or damage, your squad is trash and/or you have literally 0 wvw guild players. Which is the equivalent of of comparing open world pve content to fractal CMs. Sure, you can play anything you want, at some point though you need to have at least some people who know what their job is.

Mesmer/mirage/chrono commanders sacrifice a ton of utility skills in favor of more personal invul (way less with the changed F4 on chrono) with access to some utility skills (veil/portal) which are only needed on 1-2 members in squad. More doable now that scourge has lost its 10 player cap, still less than ideal unless you get focused very hard (again, absolute scum tactic) and have a reliable backup support fb player.

You can very comfortably drive with a zerker spb, if you're dying on one it's a l2p issue =/. If anything it's easier to drive on zerker than play one in the group since most of the healing and boons are directed at you if you're tagged.

cleanse mantra provides most of your condi clear while both shield and heal mantra are forward facing aegis applications. the pbaoe radius on the mantras is pretty small, so unless your group is right on top of you at all times (which they wont be, since you move and they follow) then you're not applying half of your kit to your subgroup.

Tome skills (especially F1-3, F2-2,4,5 and F3-3,4), MI (if used as comm), Stand your ground, shield 5, Staff 2 are all not forward facing area skills. Most of those skills are insanely useful when dropped by the commander who is leading the charge like an area resistance field so following players have an easier time.

Opening F2 and using F2-5 ar the correct time will outperform your clense mantra, not to mention that F2-2 and repeat use of F2-5 will put you far ahead of any mantra you have, IF you are absolutely unable to use aboutface.

Warrior is literally the only class which can lead on zerker, and that's due to it's over the top self sustain and auto proc stability. So yes, if you can make yourself immune or unkillable for 30 seconds before gear and require only 1 skill on your skill bar (WoD), then you can lead. A warrior directed by the commander will still be way more useful since he can more freely engage.

@RisenHowl.2419 said:Driving on a mes means you always have veil, portal, focus pull, shield stun, stab, and several invulns available whenever you want them. Driving on a spb means you will always have a bubble and CC where and when you want it, along with personal invulns out the kitten so your group is never without a tag.

Driving on a Firebrand you will always have stability for 20 people at the start (if we consider a Firebrand is dedicated to the comm group in all scenarios. Good luck leading on any class beside fb without one), area resitance field, reflects (to protect siege from blockers ubtil gens are built), basic area cleanse (which allows your support tempest to start on earth and/or remain on earth longer), staff 5, 3 blasts for smoke/heal/cleanse midfight and a small aoe pull on F1-3.

All of which you get by having a fb in your party, doesn't need to be you driving on it. Driving on a fb still means wasted forward cones man =/

I've already explained how the mantras are not the only skills in a firebrands arsenal. Also only applies if you can absolutely not aboutface your squad AND no one is walking inside your hitbox.

How exactly do you think you're applying g stab to 20 targets anyways? You get 10 with SYG but it'll prioritize the same people you would apply stab to with your mantra or f3 tome so you aren't going to get extra targets

So we are now comparing firebrand driver to other classes+firebrand?

I was keeping it simple (assuming any lead had an extra firebrand at their disposal) but if you want I can explain to you how literally every other squad based class sacrifices more than firebrand (except mesmer who sacrifices group support for utility when leading), most of all warrior who directly benefits from being able to both better engage, harass and cleave when not tag.

EDIT:It comes down to 3 points:A.)
firebrand support is needed in every group in the current meta (due to necessity of stability)
(this is the big one)B.) firebrand support's job is inside the squad and at the front-line (unlike say warrior who is better of free roaming)C.) firebrand loses directional advantage with mantras IF he can't aboutface and no one is on tag. The remainder of his kit still allows him to operate at full capacity those skills are either meant for frontal use (staff line, F1-3, axe 3, etc) or are targeted around the character (shouts, essential tome skills, blasts, etc)

Mmmmkay, clearly you don't understand. So you think it's necessary to have 2 fbs in the tag party when really you just need 1 fb dedicated to support. If you were able to drive and support your party effectively on fb you wouldn't need the second one. Do you have any videos of a fb tag that's both driving well and using about face to focus on support?

Why wouldn't you have a fb in your party if you're driving? I'm saying there are better options to drive on so you can focus on the fight itself instead of focusing on the fight+supporting the people behind you with some absurd about face shenanigans.

Still waiting to hear how you're applying stab to 20 people?

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Mesmer commander is superior in basically all situations to a FB except in instances where you are pug tagging and you being a FB can be the difference between having a firebrand in the squad or not.

Mesmer adds several high impact utility skills you generally don't want to add an extra layer of communication to to get utilized. (I'm veiling here, vs Can I get a veil here?) has all the survivability you need in terms of invulns/evades, and a commander generally degrades their play by about 25-50% depending on their experience because of the split focus. This makes a class with a small set of high impact skills that you typically don't want to bring in the squad normally ideal compared to something like firebrand where subpar play can cost party members.

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@RisenHowl.2419 said:

@RisenHowl.2419 said:You can run anything as a tag, but preferably you should run a dps/cc class. If you're at the front of the group and your healing/boon skills are mostly forwards facing (heal firebrand, scrapper) then you aren't helping the group at all. Whereas if you're a dps class (dps fb, dps scrapper, spb, chrono, reaper, etc) you can generate downs or CC so your group always has people to run over and generate rallies.

Your duty first and foremost as comm is surviving and directing your squad. There is a reason why no commander runs full zerker for long (let's not even consider scum tactics like commander focus which happens seldom enough on EU).

Firebrand excells at personal cooldowns in areas of reflect, aegis, stability, resistance and stability as well as condi cleanse. More than half his skills are area effects and not necessary forward facing, that's only the mantras and even there, the elite stunbreak is invaluable. Unless you have your personal firebrand for your commander group, which would still be even stronger as double firebrand. Your personal damage or cc of a single person means sqwat in a 50 people squad (and is even more hilarious when running minstrel).

If you have to rely on the commanders cc or damage, your squad is trash and/or you have literally 0 wvw guild players. Which is the equivalent of of comparing open world pve content to fractal CMs. Sure, you can play anything you want, at some point though you need to have at least some people who know what their job is.

Mesmer/mirage/chrono commanders sacrifice a ton of utility skills in favor of more personal invul (way less with the changed F4 on chrono) with access to some utility skills (veil/portal) which are only needed on 1-2 members in squad. More doable now that scourge has lost its 10 player cap, still less than ideal unless you get focused very hard (again, absolute scum tactic) and have a reliable backup support fb player.

You can very comfortably drive with a zerker spb, if you're dying on one it's a l2p issue =/. If anything it's easier to drive on zerker than play one in the group since most of the healing and boons are directed at you if you're tagged.

cleanse mantra provides most of your condi clear while both shield and heal mantra are forward facing aegis applications. the pbaoe radius on the mantras is pretty small, so unless your group is right on top of you at all times (which they wont be, since you move and they follow) then you're not applying half of your kit to your subgroup.

Tome skills (especially F1-3, F2-2,4,5 and F3-3,4), MI (if used as comm), Stand your ground, shield 5, Staff 2 are all not forward facing area skills. Most of those skills are insanely useful when dropped by the commander who is leading the charge like an area resistance field so following players have an easier time.

Opening F2 and using F2-5 ar the correct time will outperform your clense mantra, not to mention that F2-2 and repeat use of F2-5 will put you far ahead of any mantra you have, IF you are absolutely unable to use aboutface.

Warrior is literally the only class which can lead on zerker, and that's due to it's over the top self sustain and auto proc stability. So yes, if you can make yourself immune or unkillable for 30 seconds before gear and require only 1 skill on your skill bar (WoD), then you can lead. A warrior directed by the commander will still be way more useful since he can more freely engage.

@RisenHowl.2419 said:Driving on a mes means you always have veil, portal, focus pull, shield stun, stab, and several invulns available whenever you want them. Driving on a spb means you will always have a bubble and CC where and when you want it, along with personal invulns out the kitten so your group is never without a tag.

Driving on a Firebrand you will always have stability for 20 people at the start (if we consider a Firebrand is dedicated to the comm group in all scenarios. Good luck leading on any class beside fb without one), area resitance field, reflects (to protect siege from blockers ubtil gens are built), basic area cleanse (which allows your support tempest to start on earth and/or remain on earth longer), staff 5, 3 blasts for smoke/heal/cleanse midfight and a small aoe pull on F1-3.

All of which you get by having a fb in your party, doesn't need to be you driving on it. Driving on a fb still means wasted forward cones man =/

I've already explained how the mantras are not the only skills in a firebrands arsenal. Also only applies if you can absolutely not aboutface your squad AND no one is walking inside your hitbox.

How exactly do you think you're applying g stab to 20 targets anyways? You get 10 with SYG but it'll prioritize the same people you would apply stab to with your mantra or f3 tome so you aren't going to get extra targets

So we are now comparing firebrand driver to other classes+firebrand?

I was keeping it simple (assuming any lead had an extra firebrand at their disposal) but if you want I can explain to you how literally every other squad based class sacrifices more than firebrand (except mesmer who sacrifices group support for utility when leading), most of all warrior who directly benefits from being able to both better engage, harass and cleave when not tag.

EDIT:It comes down to 3 points:A.)
firebrand support is needed in every group in the current meta (due to necessity of stability)
(this is the big one)B.) firebrand support's job is inside the squad and at the front-line (unlike say warrior who is better of free roaming)C.) firebrand loses directional advantage with mantras IF he can't aboutface and no one is on tag. The remainder of his kit still allows him to operate at full capacity those skills are either meant for frontal use (staff line, F1-3, axe 3, etc) or are targeted around the character (shouts, essential tome skills, blasts, etc)

Mmmmkay, clearly you don't understand. So you think it's necessary to have 2 fbs in the tag party when really you just need 1 fb dedicated to support. If you were able to drive and support your party effectively on fb you wouldn't need the second one. Do you have any videos of a fb tag that's both driving well and using about face to focus on support?

Why wouldn't you have a fb in your party if you're driving? I'm saying there are better options to drive on so you can focus on the fight itself instead of focusing on the fight+supporting the people behind you with some absurd about face shenanigans.

Still waiting to hear how you're applying stab to 20 people?

You know what, sure, what ever you say. If you don't care to read what I wrote, put in 1 minute of consideration as to what was meant and how it could affect the team composition, I don't care for this argument. You are free to lead on what ever class you want to lead with. The premise of the topic was that armor is a significant factor for which classes can lead WvW squads, I disagreed and explained why. Feel free to lead on any class you want, meanwhile the vast majority of WvW leads I know lead on Firebrand when fights get difficult, and there is a reason for that.

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