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Firebrands, the most enigmatic class. Do they need a nerf?


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It should be simple as this

1)You want to do damage?-Fine but then you can't tank 5 players whole game without getting below 30% hp in 10 minutes while being able to melt down every single build there is

2)You want to be a support?-You can't kill people within seconds,as simple as that.

3)You wan't to teleport all over the map and decap nodes?-No problem at all,but you can't oneshot people from stealth

You want to be a bunker?-That's fine too,but you should be master at Survivability,not master at doing 900 k dmg in one game.

Instead of diversity,1000 different amulets and runes gave us nothing but a nightmare.

Long time ago,people were happy with having certain boons even for a 3-4 seconds every 30-40 seconds

These days,everyone is running around having 100% boon uptime.

Just look at the ability called Consume Plasma...

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:@Shao.7236I wonder how many games this necro threw becouse he had signet of undeath instead of corrupt boon for example.Why do people pretend that if you strip fb boons they suddenly die,its not true at all.as I said before, boon removal hurts classes with less boons more then those with many, becouse they cant insta reapply them, or get the important ones ripped.Most of skills that have unblockable DOESNT MATTER against aegis, hit thats unblockable goes throught and then next hit gets blocked so nothing changes.Lets not preted that the heals is the only way guard survives.they vomit protectionthey vomit aegisthey vomit weaknessthey vomit blindsthey have heavy armourand they heal ALOT.there is nothing enigmatic in FB, they are just broken plain and simple. Broken in pvp, broken in wvw, and broken in pve.

What magical 5 trait-line 7 utility build is this?

Symbolbrand's only sources of Protection are Shield #4 (4s duration, 20s cooldown) and the Symbol of Protection on-heal (1s duration, 20s ICD).

Support-Bunker isn't packing any kind of blind or weakness.

Personal healing for either is less than the likes of Soulbeast or Holosmith.

And heavy-armour as being OP..... just..... rofl.

And while it's true that simply removing boons won't hurt an FB too much, corrupting boons is the biggest counter to FB. The most difficult encounter for FB is core-necro, its basically a guaranteed loss 1v1. Boons are free conditions to the necro, so you're basically permanently crippled, blinded, chilled, feared, and on fire.

@Leonidrex.5649 said:there is a mistconception that boon removal counters FB. It doesnt.IT counters classes that dont have much boons like warrior more then vomit classes like FB.Immagine devoting entire utility to remove 5 boons and they are swiftness,prot,vigor,aegis and regeneratiob.and 2s later all of them are back.then you remove 25stacks of might and fury from warrior, and there is actual difference.

What "actual difference" ? Warrior will be back to 25 might within seconds. Your bias is showing.

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@Shao.7236 said:

@"ZDragon.3046" said:Because not every profession has a plethora of unblockables. Rev has the most common access with its phase transversal and considering the potential damage rev can do in 2 hits its why they counter firebrands. Unblockable skills become considerably less common after this with and dont serve as much value against the majority of other professions.Banish Enchantment, Nothing Can Save You, Swipe + Bountiful Theft + S/D, Signet of Might, Signet of the Wild. Any of those would easily get rid of a FB in the right opportunity with any sort of pressure following.
Banish enchantment
is also on rev but that build is less viable due to it being a condition build its certainly not as common or effective especially when the boons are reapplied faster than they are ripped.
Nothing can save you
.... simply put necro has no room to fit in its kit due to it lacking other defensive tools you cant afford to take it over other tools that help you sustain better against the wide range of builds that can counter necro. Its also got a very unhealthy cast time that makes it hard to use as a reactionary tool and so you have to use it ahead of time assuming when you think the guardian might block which often can result in it being literally not effective at all. If it was instant cast like warrior signet i would maybe give you this one but still... kinda meh....
Swipe
is fairly high cd and only does one strike some times deals no damage depending on the setup it wont be super effective against guards that can pop multi blocks
S/D
is legit and can work but also very risky I often think that in most cases the sustain of FB outperforms thief sustain by a long shot. Considering S/D never instantly kills anything for the most part unless its already super low it can kill FB but only cause unblockable is in its base kit which seems a bit unjust leaving the counterplay still too niche
Signet of might
really does not fit into warrior options its kind of the same as necro "nothing can save you." while warrior does have a bit more more wiggle room than necro its still not something you can expect them to run. Warriors also have the stability to not get cc chained into firebrand symbols or at least cant quickly get out of them lessening their need for an unblock-able utility like signet of might. Not to mention you have options like spell breaker and full counter which can take full advantage of symbols.
Signet of the wild
much of the same thing there really is just no room for it which is why rangers want their free unblockable back. The do much better against the majority by just taking more stability.

IF people are forced to take unblockable against Firebrand my question is why is firebrand not forced to take specific things against other roles/ professions that are way out of its meta zone. Or maybe it always does and just has that much in its kit that its well equipped for the vast majority of professions which would make it unbalanced imo.

I want to back up to the skills you listed one more time before moving on.Almost all of these skills you listed (not s/d or banish enchantments) actually have cooldowns that are moderate and some skills like swipe only acting as a one time hit which will not be effective enough to out perform a firebrands sustain. As i said once you go beyond rev the frequency of unblockable play goes down considerably. Not in sense that the skills dont exists just that either the cds are higher than revs or that they simply dont fit into a build because the loss is so considerably greater than the gain.What good is having an unblockable utility if you are forced to give up your cc resistance on for example. Sure you can hit through block but now you can be stun chained and what about when you fight things that dont have as frequent access to blocks via skills or boon application.

Because some professions dont have a ton of stability that last for long durations. The ones that do are also over performing or stand a much fair chance against them. Warriors, Rangers, Weavers, etc.

Warriors rarely run Stability today, as for the other two I still think Revenant is miles above those two as well as giving it.Rev can give stability but usually revs running jails these days are bunker revs and they wont die to firebrand or get pinned down like most other professions do I cant say when the last time was that i saw a jails rev that was not a bunker build.

Because the best boon hate elite was thrown into the dust with wvw updates back when updates were still tied together. Firebrand can cc combo it to death pretty easily too. Also only 3-4 professions of the entire 9 have the power to rip boons and 2 of them not very commonly. Firebrand also replaces its boons too quickly (uptime is too high)

Necromancer, Revenant and Thief in order would have an easy time making sure that FB doesn't stay for long.Necros are cc'ed to death due to lack of stability in their base kits the little they have is often not enough and FB's can outsustain them. Boons removed are often quickly re-applied.Rev counters them because of the few unblockable procs and the insanely high over-performing burst damage.Theif only if they are not fighting the thief directly again thief as a +1 is what its best at. ITs not as free for thief against them as some people might think unless its literally the one shot build which in some cases might work but that build is unhealthy for the game overall too and also needs to be removed.

This is true and valid and it works on core and DH just not Firebrand which is why you dont see symbol complaints with just core and DH (go back to cc chain issue)

Guardians be Guardians, they are meant to dominate an area, it's in their name. I don't think Symbols should be nerfed at all if they can be free casted from afar.I dont think symbols should be nerfed cause they are not the problem on core and DH its just the firebrand line thats over-performing and the firebrands specific tools mantras / tomes. Its more so the fact that firebrand as boon uptime and sustain that should not exsist on an offensive setup. Also the strengths of the tomes is up there.

Because anet forces you too and its the whole reason why offensive firebrand builds even exists right now.... Offensive power works as a better means of defense than actually investing in defensive stats and in some cases defensive tools (depending on the profession)

Yes all amulets have Power or Condition to keep a degree of combat potential which is also why Magi doesn't exist anymore, but that in regards all amulets fill a niche that one certain profession could excel, even Knights. The game is really complex yet stupidly narrowed down because "meta".

I just think anet has pushed kill potential too high in attempts to get out of the HoT meta that was a tanky bunker nightmare and they kept going to the point that investing in defensive stats are irrelevant. Offensive power is worth more as a means o defense than actual defensive power.

Almost every profession or one of its elites in the game including firebrand

No what I meant there was that everyone runs something predictable and generic because "meta", I'll have you know that there's this Reaper running in ranked with Signet of the Undeath which has turned a lot of games around by just changing one utility slot, some Guardians have finally realized the strength of Save Yourselves pulling /ALL/ conditions around them in a team fight. There's a lot of things to do outside the box that requires just a slightly harder curve, all it takes is daring.

To some extent yes but also no.People didnt bother considering undeath before the buff to it (although ive ran it in alot of games long before the change i used it a good bit since like 2017 lol it was always solid with reaper ((at lest with SoS)).)Going off meta makes you a bit more unpredictable and thats fine and some times it works however, There is a difference in being unpredictable and just having a mechanical advantage that allows something to over-perform.. even more so when its outperforming on roles other than the one it was mainly designed around.

In case 1 with the reaper.... that only happened because the skill got mechanically better as a passive and active (to some extent cast time etc) it mechanically got better as a tool option to take as a part of necromancers kits being so life force dependent in a game mode where you can often be starved for life force as you wont gain as much like you do in pve and wvw.

In case 2 with save yourselves this is a good example of just being purely unpredictable and adapting to try new things.

Overall i hope anet takes the game in a better direction than it is now because right now its literally a hot mess.

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@"Hannelore.8153" said:As I've said before, Firebrands represent what other classes should be. Its not that they're too strong, its that everything else is weak.

I would have agreed with you if you had said "core guardian" represents what all classes should be as core guardian is actually very balanced imo. Ive willinly admit to personally thinking core guardian is the most balanced profession in this game.Every strength it has in a build also has an equal weakness.

Firebrand removes a massive chunk of those weaknesses though so i dont agree.

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@"Hannelore.8153" said:As I've said before, Firebrands represent what other classes should be. Its not that they're too strong, its that everything else is weak.

I think that I've seen every class that has been deemed busted or overpowered make this claim at some point. I've done it myself perhaps.Which is easier? Nerfing one or buffing 8?Even if that was the case, The fact that every class has too much access to everything is why the balance patch has 800+ skill splits.If you don't have an exploitable weakness that is more approachable than "destroy my 10 horticruxes" then you probably need shaving. It doesn't even need to be big, just a drawback that people can game around.We keep coming back here to this argument every time a class becomes rotationally immortal. Like under the surface everyone wants bunker meta again.

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Strange arguments flowing within this thread. Some seem to have merit, others, not so much. I'll state it again for those who maybe new in this thread or just need some clarity. Again, as a Guardian main I'll try my best to be as unbiased as I can.

  • As stated above in a previous post, I think daze on axe 2 and immob on 3rd charge of truth is a bit much.

  • I'd like to see people point out what an argument against this next one: Where are all the strong mechanics attached to Guardian? Where's the stealth, instant invuln's on short cd, evade on skills, condition variation compared to that of a necro or condi-mirage, incredible mobility just to name a few? It doesn't exist. This should be HEAVILY taken into account.

Short, easy-to-read bullet points I hope helps.

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@Arken.3725 said:While I understand the posts above sentiment, condition spread of a fb isn't nearly as insane a most other professions. My issue with that proposed Nerf is that if you do that and all you have again is burning with nothing to keep it ticking (like core and dh) it'll never be useful.

Then what are we looking for, burn stack reduction? I will disagree that the condi spread is more than it should be, but I don't main guard so I am open to being wrong on that.I still think that it does too much to single targets for a support build. Either its boon application should be more support facing(particularly so that it cant cover its mobility weakness with Shining River and most of its non-preservative boon applications, like might, get pushed to allies rather than itself), or the damage it itself can put off should be reduced (in as much as burn stacks and weapon coefficients).

Slow, but immovable is okay in my book. Slow and Strong also is (as long as it can mitigate some damage too). Fast, Strong and Immovable not so much.

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@Arken.3725 said:Strange arguments flowing within this thread. Some seem to have merit, others, not so much. I'll state it again for those who maybe new in this thread or just need some clarity. Again, as a Guardian main I'll try my best to be as unbiased as I can.

  • As stated above in a previous post, I think daze on axe 2 and immob on 3rd charge of truth is a bit much.

  • I'd like to see people point out what an argument against this next one: Where are all the strong mechanics attached to Guardian? Where's the stealth, instant invuln's on short cd, evade on skills, condition variation compared to that of a necro or condi-mirage, incredible mobility just to name a few? It doesn't exist. This should be HEAVILY taken into account.

Short, easy-to-read bullet points I hope helps.

These things are not the only things needed to be strong, or that can be strong. It feels like some people go 'guardian doesn't have mass evades, stealth, etcetc and therefore can't possibly be OP' but that's...really not the case. Not saying that's what you're saying, but it seems to be alongside the 'strange arguments' you see within the thread.

Now, if I'm interpreting this correctly...you're right. Guardian isn't mechanically powerful, like the way thief's initiative system interacts with stealth and overall class design to create issues with 1-shot from stealth builds. However, I do think it is numerically overpowered

The only two mechanics I really have beef with are the design of symbols, and the interaction Renewed Focus has with tomes. Tomes have hefty amounts of power stored in them that goes beyond what the original virtues had, and resetting the cooldown on tomes is much, much stronger than resetting a virtue. Now, is this a power allocation problem and more power should be taken from tomes and pushed into...elsewhere? Or do tomes need to be nerfed? Etcetc, not gonna get too into that.

Next are symbols - it's like a less annoying version of scourge all over again. I find symbols pretty...uninteractive. Want to fight in melee? Guardian has a vast advantage....which is fine, generally, but they also have extremely powerful projectile denial. How exactly this pans out - is it a lack of availability in unblockables, and other classes have design issues that make acquiring unblockables way too difficult, etcetc - is also for another thread. However, I do like the axe symbol trait that adds daze...that adds interactability to the symbol - it makes it worth dodging the initial cast. Personally, I would rather they give symbols a bit of a redesign - half the initial power, and then attach the other half to people if they get hit, like...turning whoever you hit with the initial hit of the symbol into a moving shade that pulses out your damage. THAT would create far more interaction and counterplay - dodging the first hit of the symbol, vs hitting multiple enemies who then have to coordinate not stacking up and imploding, and so on. This would also allow fine-tuning (how does it scale with multiple opponents, for example) and additional risk/reward (miss the initial hit and you lose benefits versus land the initial hit and get the full benefit + some extra buffs....like mace2 if you hit someone with it, they pulse x benefit to the guardian while in melee range, which creates more range vs melee consideration while still retaining interaction with the enemy...). And for the love of god make mace2 cast faster.

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You're right, It's not mechanically powerful, look at the traits and utilities it has. It's burst has been nerfed via Smite Condition from Core Guard to the trap nerfs on DH that make them irrelevant now.

In terms of the Virtue's, baseline they're such a joke in terms of how weak they are that if you took them away, no one would even notice.

While I agree with symbols being an incredibly annoying and boring, it doesn't hold a candle to a lot of AoE's in this game. Unlike a lot of skills(mark's, scourge sandshades, Chaos Storm and Elemental Blast to name a few) Symbol's are front-loaded. Hell, the VAST majority of them only do physical damage with no way of keeping you in them outside of maybe Axe's since it has cripple.

If you have specific questions, lay it on me so I may shine some light upon the confusion.

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@"ZDragon.3046"Well to simplify the meaning of being forced to take something, it can still go both ways if you compensate for it with something else because despite hearing the "meta' constantly, Anet did (or used to) carefully create skills that can achieve an homogeneous result with different benefits, that's the fun of the game which seems often forgotten about. Some skills "do" have too much at once without many drawbacks and that's where I call a nerf, I can't really see that with Firebrand right now. It got gutted so much I don't know what else could be changed, to me the weakness of any Firebrand is clear and that's if they can't get any CC going, they're good as dead because all they can do is be on the defensive and that in the end of itself is something anyone can achieve with some form of short cooldown utility stunbreak and maybe 1 stack of stability if you really want to scare them, Reaper can definitely do that if it needed to 1v1 with the correct traits while having the advantage of unblockables once said Firebrand has nothing to riposte or evade with.

There's always gonna be a degree of rock-paper-scissor involved in the game, it's unavoidable yes. However I disagree that there's no space for utility, I've seen it time and time again what more people can do by just kitting with the right traits, hell that's what a lot of people do for some "meta" builds to stay relevant, take turns, hit and run. That's how Power Shiro does it, never do they try to hold anything and where the idea of it being a "high skill cap" comes from, but for me that's different, what needs to be achieved with certain should be the defining rule of skills, Shiro is not exactly what I'd call peak of skill when Riposting Shadows has indeed a lot in one slot but it's not tipping off the scale quite yet compared say Warrior ability to dodge so much, however I hope you can see what I mean by too much focus on damage, I've often been judged for playing Reaper the way I did because I wouldn't do enough damage, yet it would still works, just differently because I have more utility in something else, in fact I don't know how most Reapers can't play without Foot in the Grave and Unholy Martyr, those are such great traits for being a Duelist, my guess is that people don't care about that and just want to kill faster.. But it makes you so vulnerable it's stupid.

There's a lot of things/utility taken for granted where as it was already fine to play without them, people just have become accustomed to it and it's ease of use. No I'm not saying that to pick at straws, we all know how the game is cooldown based and given how really chaotic situations can be and nature of evades can turn around the importance of what was evaded.

There's all the more reasons why playing FOTM's is bad, but you can't change the mentality of those who only care about winning and not getting good with some degree of difficulty.

It's probably my Revenant bias, but I can't see what needs to be nerfed on Firebrand now.

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@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Master Ketsu.4569 said:Well let us take a look at some of the past metas:

-Double Firebrand, Double Scourge-Double Firebrand, Double Mirage-Double Firebrand, Double Holosmith-Double Firebrand, Double Herald

Nothing wrong with Firebrand here folks. ;^)

And at the end of the day, this was all that needed to be said.

Eu has very, very few Firebrands right now. The meta is weavers, thieves, revs and a few mirages.

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@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@Master Ketsu.4569 said:Well let us take a look at some of the past metas:

-Double Firebrand, Double Scourge-Double Firebrand, Double Mirage-Double Firebrand, Double Holosmith-Double Firebrand, Double Herald

Nothing wrong with Firebrand here folks. ;^)

And at the end of the day, this was all that needed to be said.

Eu has very, very few Firebrands right now. The meta is weavers, thieves, revs and a few mirages.

along with a backbone of 1-2 firebrands ofc.there is also difference between what people play and what is best.rev is better then mes but i just dont care, I wont play rev. I like mes.

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@Master Ketsu.4569 said:Well let us take a look at some of the past metas:

-Double Firebrand, Double Scourge-Double Firebrand, Double Mirage-Double Firebrand, Double Holosmith-Double Firebrand, Double Herald

Nothing wrong with Firebrand here folks. ;^)

And at the end of the day, this was all that needed to be said.

Eu has very, very few Firebrands right now. The meta is weavers, thieves, revs and a few mirages.

along with a backbone of 1-2 firebrands ofc.there is also difference between what people play and what is best.rev is better then mes but i just dont care, I wont play rev. I like mes.

The current top 2 consistent teams right now on eu runs:Team 1: 2 SA d/p thieves, mirage, water Weaver and spellbreaker.Team 2: water Weaver, fire Weaver, SA d/p thief, rev and support fb.

So no one is running symbolbrand. Which is the build being complained about. It loses 1v1 to Weaver and mirage, it doesn't have the mobility to stay on rev and thief and it falls over to a +1 unless it's coliseum.

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@Master Ketsu.4569 said:Well let us take a look at some of the past metas:

-Double Firebrand, Double Scourge-Double Firebrand, Double Mirage-Double Firebrand, Double Holosmith-Double Firebrand, Double Herald

Nothing wrong with Firebrand here folks. ;^)

You forgot

-Double Firebrand, Double Firebrand + Weaver

I personally seen/lost to naru & grim running this in AT

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@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@Master Ketsu.4569 said:Well let us take a look at some of the past metas:

-Double Firebrand, Double Scourge-Double Firebrand, Double Mirage-Double Firebrand, Double Holosmith-Double Firebrand, Double Herald

Nothing wrong with Firebrand here folks. ;^)

And at the end of the day, this was all that needed to be said.

Eu has very, very few Firebrands right now. The meta is weavers, thieves, revs and a few mirages.

along with a backbone of 1-2 firebrands ofc.there is also difference between what people play and what is best.rev is better then mes but i just dont care, I wont play rev. I like mes.

The current top 2 consistent teams right now on eu runs:Team 1: 2 SA d/p thieves, mirage, water Weaver and spellbreaker.Team 2: water Weaver, fire Weaver, SA d/p thief, rev and support fb.

So no one is running symbolbrand. Which is the build being complained about. It loses 1v1 to Weaver and mirage, it doesn't have the mobility to stay on rev and thief and it falls over to a +1 unless it's coliseum.

Stop coming in here with facts, they're not important.

My feelings say that every team is running 6 FB's minimum, and that each of them can 1v5 any other team comp without even equipping an amulet. Because FB is better at absolutely everything than every other class; that's why nobody ever runs anything else. Weavers? Revs? Thieves? Nope, they don't exist.

:/

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@"Master Ketsu.4569" said:Well let us take a look at some of the past metas:

-Double Firebrand, Double Scourge-Double Firebrand, Double Mirage-Double Firebrand, Double Holosmith-Double Firebrand, Double Herald

Nothing wrong with Firebrand here folks. ;^)

And at the end of the day, this was all that needed to be said.

Eu has very, very few Firebrands right now. The meta is weavers, thieves, revs and a few mirages.

along with a backbone of 1-2 firebrands ofc.there is also difference between what people play and what is best.rev is better then mes but i just dont care, I wont play rev. I like mes.

https://twitch.tv/videos/541137801?t=03h02m19s

This was the daily AT finals on EU yesterday. Look at the amount of value the FB got compared to literally every other player in that game.

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@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@"Master Ketsu.4569" said:Well let us take a look at some of the past metas:

-Double Firebrand, Double Scourge-Double Firebrand, Double Mirage-Double Firebrand, Double Holosmith-Double Firebrand, Double Herald

Nothing wrong with Firebrand here folks. ;^)

And at the end of the day, this was all that needed to be said.

Eu has very, very few Firebrands right now. The meta is weavers, thieves, revs and a few mirages.

along with a backbone of 1-2 firebrands ofc.there is also difference between what people play and what is best.rev is better then mes but i just dont care, I wont play rev. I like mes.

This was the daily AT finals on EU yesterday. Look at the amount of value the FB got compared to literally every other player in that game.

I could cherry pick some at where finals were 2 firebrands vs 2 firebrands but im not going to bother.Peeps dont takes AT all that seriously, players win it not builds.

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@"Master Ketsu.4569" said:Well let us take a look at some of the past metas:

-Double Firebrand, Double Scourge-Double Firebrand, Double Mirage-Double Firebrand, Double Holosmith-Double Firebrand, Double Herald

Nothing wrong with Firebrand here folks. ;^)

And at the end of the day, this was all that needed to be said.

Eu has very, very few Firebrands right now. The meta is weavers, thieves, revs and a few mirages.

along with a backbone of 1-2 firebrands ofc.there is also difference between what people play and what is best.rev is better then mes but i just dont care, I wont play rev. I like mes.

This was the daily AT finals on EU yesterday. Look at the amount of value the FB got compared to literally every other player in that game.

I could cherry pick some at where finals were 2 firebrands vs 2 firebrands but im not going to bother.Peeps dont takes AT all that seriously, players win it not builds.

Not cherry picking anything. Look at the EU mAT.

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@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@"Master Ketsu.4569" said:Well let us take a look at some of the past metas:

-Double Firebrand, Double Scourge-Double Firebrand, Double Mirage-Double Firebrand, Double Holosmith-Double Firebrand, Double Herald

Nothing wrong with Firebrand here folks. ;^)

And at the end of the day, this was all that needed to be said.

Eu has very, very few Firebrands right now. The meta is weavers, thieves, revs and a few mirages.

along with a backbone of 1-2 firebrands ofc.there is also difference between what people play and what is best.rev is better then mes but i just dont care, I wont play rev. I like mes.

This was the daily AT finals on EU yesterday. Look at the amount of value the FB got compared to literally every other player in that game.

I could cherry pick some at where finals were 2 firebrands vs 2 firebrands but im not going to bother.Peeps dont takes AT all that seriously, players win it not builds.

Not cherry picking anything. Look at the EU mAT.

I did.1 trick thief on thief1 trick mesmer on mesmer1 trick warrior on warrior

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