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Ranger, the new Warrior?


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@shadowpass.4236

I think bear stance is already powerful enough (although it offers very little sustain).

@Trevor Boyer.6524

You seem to be suggesting that pet swap quickness is the problem? Is this simply because ranger can activate it? Cause warrior still has almost equivalent quickness access (on paper) they just can't control it...

And ignoring boon share on ranger.

@Ashkew.6584this is the first time marksmanship has been viable since pre HoT. And a big reason for it isn't the synergy with Two handed training giving fury on CC and guaranteeing the crit. I think it's ok, given that you have to give up a lot of sustain to grab it. I know you think core is great (I think it has limitations and is inferior to soulbeast) but I think that nerfing gazelle wouldn't allow core ranger to net kills as effectively and would put it in its place without harming the more risky play of MM & BM.

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@Zexanima.7851 said:Ranger is superior to warrior in a lot of respects, honestly. More boon access, more stun breaks and stability, equal if not greater damage, more range, more CC (than meta spellbreaker, not in general though), passive damage via pet. If building for high burst, ranger can do it better. If building high sustain, ranger can do it better. The main advantage warrior has is superior cleave where ranger is primarily single target. This makes warrior better out fighting outnumbered but ranger can do just as well considering they don't care about holding the point.

More stunbreaks and more CC than warrior? Lul.

Ranger aint broken, it still loses enough matchups 1v1 and it cant rly teamfight.

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@"shadowpass.4236" said:For anyone curious... here's a

demonstrating how much damage output demo Soulbeast has.

And here are some videos/clips of me fighting against rangers on multiple classes:

  1. - Mirror Matchup
  2. - Punishing Maul
  3. - Countering Longbow and Punishing Evade Frames
  4. - Good example on how to avoid/bait out ranger skills whilst simultaneously keeping track of pet attacks in a winning 1v2.

Can you please stop peddling your crap videos in every thread, I watched the engi one and it was a bad joke, some messy 2v2 turning into a 1v2 with a core mes facetanking jump shot on node and getting hit by the biggest crit possible. There is nothing to learn there except how terrible many randoms are.

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People saying both are equivalent or that ranger is superior clearly have no idea how the game works. On the long run warrior is way superior.What rangers do have :

  • A higher burst
  • A faster heal

What warriors do have :

  • A higher sustain
  • More damage source (more skills do damage)

As a ranger you already struggle vs any matchup who have ways to take / mitigate the hit in close combat or can quickly close the distance if you are in range. If you eat burst then yes you lose. If they are running away then it still is a win because this means either they do not capture the point or they do not hit enemies.

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@"shadowpass.4236" said:

  1. Lower the damage on Gazelle's Charge to 1.4k instead of 2k base.
  2. Lower the % damage modifiers on Moment of Clarity and Attack of Opportunity to match Remorseless at 25% (instead of 50%)
  3. Lower the block duration on GS4 to 2s.
  4. Increase the cast time on Troll Unguent to 1s.
  5. Remove Plasma from Siamoth.

Good suggestions, it's pretty obvious what the problem is for "pvp" and I am hoping for unbiased review of those and no the pet AI as far as I've seen it being pulled off is not an issue, there's no reason for so much damage.

With over ~65% of damage reduction which I still take over 13k and there's 4 ways to nullify with things such as CC or Stealth attempts entirely over a period of 10 seconds shows really how busted the damage can be with the added occasional headbutt stacking, 1. and 2. are definitely overboard still with the rest of the kit, there's other things to avoid that are much more important than just the damage, there's too much "Oh he evaded my CC, that's okay I can still burst anyway." with Ranger, not to say other professions don't do that either but there's clearly a big discrepancy in between Ranger and the rest of the game.

Having to fight with full exposure without stealth while they can be dancing and staling with "ease" around indefinitely is indeed because of 3. as it's a pretty big rampant issue that a lot of skills (like PW) have a very very long usage and that buys a lot of time without significant value.

I've already came to accept that 90% of the time every bursts comes out of stealth, I would like those bursts to not remove half of my health (23k) when I'm nearly at the peak of defenses (Can be as high as 85% and that's not counting the potential Weakness added but let's keep it at 65% for fair odds) because that's all I can do in most situations where LoS isn't an option, Mesmers have a better tell than Maul or Point Plank Shot and they also can't prevent you from evading with no risk like Ranger can, I'm not talking about one shot potential but rather very few big hits with large multipliers (Ranger) rather than multiples hits with multipliers that are weighted well in between classes (Mesmer) are not as unfair, 25% is already a lot, 50% is just overdoing it for PvP standards even for a pet when the damage is upwards of 9k as a CC and can be unblockable.

For me to still get punished playing my cards right against what I should be strong against is not okay, while all people have to do is wait out my short buffs that's a glaring issue which ONLY this specific ranger build has given me, nothing else in the game can do so much, not even Rifle Warrior with the Barrier trait. You can't say it's a weakness to the playstyle itself when the playstyle is meant to deal with this kind of situation, the bonuses obtained are just not fair on the attacker.

You can only LoS so much when foes utility has low CD and can deal with everything close or far.

Edit: For Troll Unguent I also agree, considering for what it does and how the effects overlap the CD, ¾ is not particularly easy to interrupt with no instant cast CC's. That skill is extremely good considering that even at full HP while getting condi bombed, you are likely to heal over it and just be 12 seconds off another one, then you also have node domination with "Lesser" Muddy Terrain but that's for another time.

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@aymnad.9023 said:People saying both are equivalent or that ranger is superior clearly have no idea how the game works. On the long run warrior is way superior.What rangers do have :

  • A higher burst
  • A faster heal

What warriors do have :

  • A higher sustain
  • More damage source (more skills do damage)

As a ranger you already struggle vs any matchup who have ways to take / mitigate the hit in close combat or can quickly close the distance if you are in range. If you eat burst then yes you lose. If they are running away then it still is a win because this means either they do not capture the point or they do not hit enemies.

It's totally reasonable that they would compare those.

Rangers have access to high sustain too, in the form of stealth access, higher duration and lower cooldown blocks, and more plentiful evades.They also have more damage modifiers than warrior does, so while they may not have as many buttons to press to do damage, the buttons they do press do heavy damage. Further, the ones that do damage, like smoke assault on soulbeast and rapid fire, create situations where you would need to dodge just as effectively as warrior does now. They have just as much mobility as warrior, but they can damage you more aggressively from range and hide their repositioning, so their mobility is oftentimes more dangerous.

Having more buttons to press to do damage is not a factor that makes any kind of balancing okay. It really doesn't matter how many keys you need to hit if the end result is oppressive levels of damage coupled with oppressive levels of sustain. No matter what route you take to get there, it's bad.

I'm not going to comment here or there regarding ranger. I'm just... -watching- what people have to say about it, and how it lines up with things they have issue with. But people that are claiming ranger is basically just as or more obnoxious than warrior -do- have a point.

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@Eurantien.4632 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524

You seem to be suggesting that pet swap quickness is the problem? Is this simply because ranger can activate it? Cause warrior still has almost equivalent quickness access (on paper) they just can't control it...

And ignoring boon share on ranger.

No, it's everything honestly:

  • Game implemented too much +conc stat on gear stats and traits, + straight boon duration on sigils/runes and even some traits & utilities like Moa Stance.
  • Ranger trait that gains quickness on evade
  • Ranger trait that gains quickness on pet swap
  • Soulbeast trait that gains quickness on merged beast skill use
  • Quick Zephyr
  • Plasma
  • WHAO boon amplification
  • Quickness on Soulbeast dagger 3 with 2x ammo use
  • Then you get sigil of agility upon that

Of course builds don't utilize all of these at once, but even if a build utilizes 1/3rd of these options and has a little bit of + boon duration, it's all the quickness we need for coming in on a burst and landing otherwise slow stuff like Maul/WI, or even to be able to quickly finish a Rapid FIre cast, so the damage lands in half the amount of time that it normally would, which gives players less time to LOS and gtfo of the way.

I'm certainly not advocating a massive nerf to Ranger Quickness, as this would completely and I do mean completely remove Ranger from viability. It does need to be able to pop a Quickness to even be able to realistically land Maul/WI against competent players. But what it shouldn't have, is Quickness on demand any time it wants it. Even I have to recognize that. It's pretty much the same issue Holo was having before they nerfed Holo Quick uptime.

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@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@aymnad.9023 said:People saying both are equivalent or that ranger is superior clearly have no idea how the game works. On the long run warrior is way superior.What rangers do have :
  • A higher burst
  • A faster heal

What warriors do have :
  • A higher sustain
  • More damage source (more skills do damage)

As a ranger you already struggle vs any matchup who have ways to take / mitigate the hit in close combat or can quickly close the distance if you are in range. If you eat burst then yes you lose. If they are running away then it still is a win because this means either they do not capture the point or they do not hit enemies.

It's totally reasonable that they would compare those.

Rangers have access to high sustain too, in the form of stealth access, higher duration and lower cooldown blocks, and more plentiful evades.They also have more damage modifiers than warrior does, so while they may not have as many buttons to press to do damage, the buttons they
do
press do heavy damage. Further, the ones that do damage, like smoke assault on soulbeast and rapid fire, create situations where you would need to dodge just as effectively as warrior does now. They have just as much mobility as warrior, but they can damage you more aggressively from range and hide their repositioning, so their mobility is oftentimes more dangerous.

Having more buttons to press to do damage is not a factor that makes any kind of balancing okay. It really doesn't matter how many keys you need to hit if the end result is oppressive levels of damage coupled with oppressive levels of sustain. No matter what route you take to get there, it's bad.

I'm not going to comment here or there regarding ranger. I'm just... -watching- what people have to say about it, and how it lines up with things they have issue with. But people that are claiming ranger is basically just as or more obnoxious than warrior -do- have a point.

That is true. Both have strong points. But you cannot say it is stronger because they clearly not designed the same way as I already pointed out.The number of keys does matter in a way because while those skills are highly loaded (rapid fire is not imo since it is long and has a lot of counter) and thus rewarding when they hit, they also have bigger tells and missing means downtime for the opponent. Still is a completely different design.While having multiple sets (range, close combat) makes ranger more adaptable (and perfect for a fully solo queue environment), weapon swapping is more punishing because you they force you into a role that you might not want. If you are instantly focused on lb and swap to gs to get some defense then you still cannot go in the middle of a mid fight or stay forever in close combat. If you swap to get lb stealth while in close combat you still have to move because you will not get as much sustain.

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@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:It's just quickness uptime on the Ranger.

If a Warrior had the quickness uptime of a Ranger, the Warrior would absolutely shred a Ranger in every melee situation.Warrior technically should shread ranger in melee situations even without itThats the whole issue with why ranger is superior because in melee range ranger has the same tools as warrior does in terms of evades and blocks ontop of having a wider boon table.

Even so, you guys who complain about Rangers sincerely need to l2p. That's all I'm saying in this thread. Not going over this again.The next time anet makes something busted thats obviously overperforming thats not ranger should we just mark it off as "L2P?"

No

We already went over this:

its comparable to warrior with a melee weapon in its hand.

But it's not though.

Shadowpass had already well covered in that link how Ranger already gets out brawled on node by just about every other melee class, which is true.

I have no idea what ranking you play at or what your true skill is regardless of your ranking, but if you are truly only a bell-curve player, you can't come in here claiming that Ranger is OP because you're comparing plat 2+ Rangers to what you see gold 2+ Warriors doing. I mean no offense, it's just I often see people play a 100 games man, and in 1 game they see an excellent player who makes a class look busted, and then they're in here in the forum talking about "how strong that class is and it needs nerfs".

Over powered? probably not.... no not many things reach that state

Over performing? Absolutely and to be clear ranger is not the only one so dont take it like its a bias only against ranger but lets not deny that its over performing for where the majority of players are. If you are above that then thats your perspective which is an ok perspective to have but sadly the game is not balanced around the top percentile its balanced around the majority.

im comparing skills to skills not what i see one player doing vs another playerIm talking about built in tools that the profession has which makes it semi comparable to warrior. You are totally twisting this in completely the wrong direction from what im pointing out

Ranger has great ranged pressure and damage with axe and long bow which is fine.Ranger also has great melee pressure and defense with a gs or even with a main hand sword (when the person really wants to master it)

Warriors are great in melee but horrid in range

Again im not comparing plat players to gold playersIm comparing damage, blocks, evades, boon tables, and cc in both kits.].Warriors have an off hand weapon with a weaker block in terms of cooldowns, dont have as wide of a boon table to play with, and evasive power similar to ranger in terms of dodge rolls or other evasive skills.

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I don't play ranger much but it's quite refreshing to see mains (shadow and eura) actually comment on nerfs.

These are the type of people anet should listen to when looking at adjustments. It's when those who main a particular profession that are willing to see it nerfed for the betterment of the game that you look at.

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@Arken.3725 said:I don't play ranger much but it's quite refreshing to see mains (shadow and eura) actually comment on nerfs.

These are the type of people anet should listen to when looking at adjustments. It's when those who main a particular profession that are willing to see it nerfed for the betterment of the game that you look at.

I'm also extremely bias in that I want WS (the mainstay for every other ranger but me) nerfed into oblivion and I want to still be able to one-shot people.

My suggested nerfs ultimately help me in someway because while I think they'd make the game more skillful - they would also give me better match ups. There are no saints here.

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Of course Eura but if you, myself or anyone else can maintain a level-head and see past certain unhealthy mechanics paired to our mains and are STILL willing to see it nerfed, that's commendable. I'm always of the impression that if you bring a decent argument to why something specific about a profession that should be nerfed/buffed, I'd listen. Most of the time It's just random rants without any objective information to back it up.

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I am main ranger and its pretty sad that only viable ranger is pew pew in core or slb version. So im not happy with current state and would like to see other options but still pew pew need nerfs which won t affect good players like nerfing gs block for 2 seconds duration, reducing some quickness uptime and attack of oportunity for 25% dmg boost not 50% since same thing is being done to all other classes. Still ppl should start talking of a wider picture since pew pew can be good alternative, but not only viable build for ranger and it shows how kitten is current state of ranger. All these conversations are 80% l2p issue since pew pew is noob friendly build for begginers and yes at end game everybuild is hard but that doesn t mean everybuild is easy and rewarding to start with as pew pew ranger.

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it still holds true that the tankier ranger build should win the 1v1. In a ranger v ranger match up. The gazelle makes this more in favor of the squishy ranger. Plasma also helps a ton too.

The problem is, non lb/gs just is outmatched at the moment numbers-wise by too many other professions. It's actually easier imo, to play glass with a gazelle and just not get hit (to avoid the numbers game) and have really high burst to win all my fights. Instead of trading blows like you have to as a non lb/gs ranger.

Also pew pew dmg is a little too high, sic em just shouldn't be in PvP.

I'm leery of nerfing lb, because projectiles have the most counters and they are very widely available, despite the fact they aren't being run (few people counter build specs anymore). And if they aren't a threat, rev, mesmer, thief, stay top dogs as always.

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Wouldn't surprise me as both don't require any actual skill and are easy to play so that every noob plays them. Ranger might be most prominent among the "noob classes" still. Even in PvP you can just spam everything and still win with that strategy. But wait until they face oponents in higher rank tiers of a league season. Then they'll get what's coming to them and they'll eventually leave. ^^

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@Eurantien.4632 said:it still holds true that the tankier ranger build should win the 1v1. In a ranger v ranger match up. The gazelle makes this more in favor of the squishy ranger. Plasma also helps a ton too.Plasma is not played right now. You see it twice a season and that's it. So yes they can nerf it if they want (for all I care about this skill I never used but stole to enemies multiple times -> aka drawbacks) but it cannot be a “ranger is strong” argument in the current meta.

The problem is, non lb/gs just is outmatched at the moment numbers-wise by too many other professions. It's actually easier imo, to play glass with a gazelle and just not get hit (to avoid the numbers game) and have really high burst to win all my fights. Instead of trading blows like you have to as a non lb/gs ranger.I disagree. I played a bit of berserker slb and a lot more marauder / demolisher core. Core is more tanky and better suited for a close/longer combat fight. Slb has a better mobility and that is where it gets most of its survivability. Also even on slb you have to trade blows if you want to play sides (edit : because people already hide all the time in corners). If you stay mid then sure you can stay lb if no rev goes on you.

Also pew pew dmg is a little too high, sic em just shouldn't be in PvP.I'm leery of nerfing lb, because projectiles have the most counters and they are very widely available, despite the fact they aren't being run (few people counter build specs anymore). And if they aren't a threat, rev, mesmer, thief, stay top dogs as always.Current version of sicem is fine and I do not think lb is too strong. They could increase a bit the cd on barrage (4-5s) and that will already make it harder to tag points. While the previous barrage was too weak with a ridiculously long cd, the current one is quite easy to use and made it more viable even vs counter projectiles.

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@Falan.1839 said:

@"shadowpass.4236" said:For anyone curious... here's a
demonstrating how much damage output demo Soulbeast has.

And here are some videos/clips of me fighting against rangers on multiple classes:
  1. - Mirror Matchup
  2. - Punishing Maul
  3. - Countering Longbow and Punishing Evade Frames
  4. - Good example on how to avoid/bait out ranger skills whilst simultaneously keeping track of pet attacks in a winning 1v2.

Can you please stop peddling your kitten videos in every thread, I watched the engi one and it was a bad joke, some messy 2v2 turning into a 1v2 with a core mes facetanking jump shot on node and getting hit by the biggest crit possible. There is nothing to learn there except how terrible many randoms are.

I think you should rewatch it.

  1. Photon Blitz to bait out Point Blank Shot -> Dodged the PBS.
  2. Corona Burst during his Barrage.
  3. Cancelled my Photon Blitz to dodge the Gazelle's Charge after he pet swapped.
  4. Baited out the Hilt Bash with movement.
  5. Predicted the Counterattack.
  6. Dodged the Counterattack Kick.
  7. Corona Burst during his Barrage.
  8. Kept track of the cooldown on Smokescale's Takedown after he pet swapped.
  9. Corona Burst after the evade frame on Swoop.

I can guarantee you if I didn't bait/dodge all of those CCs and ignored the pet swaps and the pets' animations, I would've lost that 1v1. This was post-stab-nerf so instead of just facetanking the CCs like a lot of people do, I just kept track of the cooldowns and dodged/baited appropriately.

All of a sudden you reverse the

and have me being the one playing core ranger and you'll see how many Corona Bursts I interrupted whilst dodging the mantra mesmer's bursts/CC, etc. etc.
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@Dantheman.3589 said:Boonbeast is very very good rn. Beats many classes like fire weaver 1v1, while still having much better mobility and team support than most other side noders

No

In no way does any Ranger build out brawl Fire Weaver, especially Boonbeast like setups that have lower damage output. There is this huge misconception that modern Ranger builds somehow have amazing condi cleanse, which is simply not true at all. They have moderate to low or in some situations no cleanse at all if they are full DPS. Your best bet against a Fire Weaver is to go at it with glass cannon DPS and hope you can land the 2-3 consecutive strikes through evades to down it immediately. If you can't do that you immediately lose the node and have to run. And no, longbow is ineffective against Fire Weaver. Too many reflects & evades.

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@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:Boonbeast is very very good rn. Beats many classes like fire weaver 1v1, while still having much better mobility and team support than most other side noders

No

In no way does any Ranger build out brawl Fire Weaver, especially Boonbeast like setups that have lower damage output. There is this huge misconception that modern Ranger builds somehow have amazing condi cleanse, which is simply not true at all. They have moderate to low or in some situations no cleanse at all if they are full DPS. Your best bet against a Fire Weaver is to go at it with glass cannon DPS and hope you can land the 2-3 consecutive strikes through evades to down it immediately. If you can't do that you immediately lose the node and have to run. And no, longbow is ineffective against Fire Weaver. Too many reflects & evades.

I find glass ranger to be the strongest build I've ever played on ranger. Has no match ups that are guaranteed to be losses, I often can beat fire weavers (but it's a waste of time) and it is one of the if not the best dps class right now. But a lot take gazelle away... and I'm not so sure anymore haha.

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