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WvW Participation needs Massive overhaul


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This system discriminated roamers and small defending groups.

Let me explain what is wrong with it:Today a large group attacked our Keep (succesfully). We were only with like 10 people defending, nothing we could do really, but we tried.I died several times trying to contest and stall time to get more in, but it didn't work.The enemy group was too tight to even kill a single person.

Now while that happened, my participation bleeded from full tier 6 to tier 3.I am here to fully agrue this system. What I did was according to ArenaNet NOT participating.I was being punished as if I was AFK.

Run a Yak in save place where it makes NO impact "Ow you are participating! Look at you go!!"Drop a few supply in a wall that's 99% "Wow, you are working so hard! Here! you are save from Participation bleeding for 5 whole minutes!"

Fight hard to defend an objective but fail to get a kill in: "Get out of here, Slacker! Here is a punishment! You don't deserve Participation!"

Before we talk about Balance, let's talk about a FAIR system for Participation.

Untill then... I will report this time and time again as a BUG that BLOCKS PROGRESS because looking at it logically...THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT THIS IS!

Edited Title to fix Spell issueMayor changed into Massive (since Major is also a militairy rank - sorry for the error)

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The situation is quite problematic, because let´s assume the system is changed in a way that you only have to damage an enemy or prticipate in the defense of an objective.Upon participation you would get a 5 min timer until your participation decreases again. Now such a system would be fine but also be open for abuse. All one has to do is show up once or become afk near the objective.

The whole reason why participation even depletes is to impede going afk and encourage participating in events around the map, ergo killing opposing players, taking keeps/camps and interrupt supply-lines through killing yaks. Now, activities like scouting, defending are not properly rewarded with participation because these activities can be abused quite easily and are nigh impossible to monitor , so that abuse wouldn´t happen.

So far, the current system has a lot of room for improvement and we can only wait what anet comes up with in the near future with alliances and stuff.

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Pure a hit would indeed be open to exploit. I do see that problem. But this is massive participation.In this case, the wall they got in to, actually was guarded with a lot of red. Going there - specially on a glass deadeye - was instant death.

The problem is, during such fight, you should not be thinking "Oww need put supply in wall to keep up participation"

I also think it should not be a matter of 1 factor to see that one was participating in such a defense.Purely hitting would be abused by botters, yes. But during this fight I got measurable things in:

  • Hit enemy, multiple of them
  • got hit and killed multiple times
  • waypointed and ran back
  • was inside the ring trying to contest.

Maybe a 2 factor system.Take the endless bot fight as example:What if the conditions were 2 fold:

  1. I hit the enemy (not that I GOT hit)
  2. I died during the fight.

on 1: Actively hit an enemy, if I would say "took damage" and "died" that would reward AFKers that get killed.

There must be some better solution, because this makes me want to port out, which feels like abandoning my team.

The fact I dropped 3 tiers defending a keep in a quite intensive fight, is just wrong. You're punisheing the wrong people this way.

off topic: I checked and saw the fault after googling it.Sorry for the mistake between Mayor and Major.English is not my first language. Not even 2nd lol

I'll fix the title

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@Swagger.1459 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:@Tuna Bandit.3786 Great idea to have an elected representative govern the mists!!!

Hey @Strider Pj.2193, think we should ask @EremiteAngel.9765 to whip up a poll so we could start the voting process for wvw mayor? :)

Dude, it’s all you and Diku.

I was thinking that you should run for office too!

Yeah.. but my office is in the basement.. you know.. with the boiler?

I’ve got my mop ready!!

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@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:@Tuna Bandit.3786 Great idea to have an elected representative govern the mists!!!

Hey @Strider Pj.2193, think we should ask @EremiteAngel.9765 to whip up a poll so we could start the voting process for wvw mayor? :)

Dude, it’s all you and Diku.

I was thinking that you should run for office too!

Yeah.. but my office is in the basement.. you know.. with the boiler?

Sounds like you're ready for the systems team alright. How are you with living story lunch leftovers for pay?

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@LetoII.3782 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:@Tuna Bandit.3786 Great idea to have an elected representative govern the mists!!!

Hey @Strider Pj.2193, think we should ask @EremiteAngel.9765 to whip up a poll so we could start the voting process for wvw mayor? :)

Dude, it’s all you and Diku.

I was thinking that you should run for office too!

Yeah.. but my office is in the basement.. you know.. with the boiler?

Sounds like you're ready for the systems team alright. How are you with living story lunch leftovers for pay?

I don’t even think we get THAT much..

But I figure I need to bring a sleeping pad an a shelter half..

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@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:@Tuna Bandit.3786 Great idea to have an elected representative govern the mists!!!

Hey @Strider Pj.2193, think we should ask @EremiteAngel.9765 to whip up a poll so we could start the voting process for wvw mayor? :)

Dude, it’s all you and Diku.

I was thinking that you should run for office too!

Yeah.. but my office is in the basement.. you know.. with the boiler?

I’ve got my mop ready!!

That could be your slogan!

Vote Strider PJ for WvW Mayor in 2020!

“(S)he’s got the mop ready!”

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I like the system, as a defender, it's less stressful when you throw 10 supply on a broken outer wall (after inner has fallen, but before the contest timer resets) and then just sit back and cheer for the hard working horde as they're capping your T1 Bay with 40 people at midnight on a Sunday in T4 against the 3 people that were silly enough to think it'd actually make it to T3.

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You get participation for every 20 supply you use to repair, gives you 5 mins.You get participation for defend objective events, which has been rumored to be bugged sometimes and the more reliable way to get credit for it is by repairing stuff, gives you 10 mins.Player kills gives you 10 mins.Killing siege 5 mins.Not a whole lot else they can give you for defending.

Most of the credit events are towards attacking for captures and defeat of npcs, because they want to reward people for being activate not afking. We already have people that abuse the system by going afk and repairing whenever they need to keep participation up. The biggest problem here is the defend event not properly giving credit, some people have stated they don't get credit for the event even if they've killed players in the area.

All in all I think overall the system is fine as it is, but the defend event needs to be checked out.Don't know why people take participation so seriously, I barely ever check on mines, but then again I'm usually active in defending or attacking so....

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@"XenesisII.1540"Now that you mention it, the fight lasted a good 20 minutes, that "defend this place for your world" should've rolled over several times during that timespan.

I am not constantly checking, after the fight I noticed the red, and hovered over and was quite suprised it dropped all the way back to level 3.

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Not much more they can do with it to give credit other than checking if your character does certain amount of damage to players(which flags you to be in combat which should probably count but can be abused) instead of just kills to get credit, because again they want to make sure they're giving credit to active people, not someone sitting afk in the area being attacked, otherwise that would just promote people to sit afk in like smc all day, which they already do enough of with afk repairing for participation.

Your situation fell into the outliner where your pugs couldn't kill anyone from a boon ball group, only other thing you could do is get a repair off during the defend event or try and kill their siege.

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Constructive feedback... :trollface:

I would like to see active defense reward participation that ties into your average gameplay scenario. Currently, a lot of players simply dump supply into a wall and call it a day. Even if you know you're going to lose said objective to an obviously larger force there's no doubt in worthiness for your dedicated effort against the opposition that should reward participation.

Examples include (while being in the vicinity of objective while its under attack):

  • Shield gen blocking enemy siege
  • Blocking/absorbing enemy disablers
  • Disabling enemy siege
  • Successful activation of Target Painter, Stealth Trap, Supply Trap
  • Reviving NPCs
  • Knocking siege users off siege (with or without use of siege)
  • Ring contesting

Hell, imagine if they brought back bannering lords... would be kinda funny ngl.


Suggested change regarding trebuchet skill Healing Oasis:

  • Healing oasis now massively heals NPCs/objective lords. Include larger radius, pulse heal if applicable would need to be brought in line so as not to be OP, decreased from 60 seconds to 30 seconds.

Suggested addition regarding Mortar siege weapon:

  • Add an extra skill identical function to Healing Oasis, or, allow Concussion Barrage to include massive heal where targeted.

These changes would encourage enemy opposition to commit to siege clearing before heading to lords allowing some time for defender reinforcements etc while giving said siege skills a wider use for skillful gameplay + ability point sink. Let's be real here, no one ever uses Healing Oasis. Give that thing some love.

Take these suggestions with a grain of salt, there's no doubt in my mind that all of the above could well indeed be abused by the larger force as many will fear... at the end of the day WvW will never be truly balanced.

Thoughts, OP?

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I mean the only thing they can do is add if you die you'd get the 10 mins reset of a fight on your participation.

I agree with you that if i fight people and i die i should get participation of the fight.

But to be fair: how would you actually like to see it changed, without having people to mayorly abuse the system

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@L A T I O N.8923 said:I mean the only thing they can do is add if you die you'd get the 10 mins reset of a fight on your participation.

I agree with you that if i fight people and i die i should get participation of the fight.

But to be fair: how would you actually like to see it changed, without having people to mayorly abuse the systemThe question is should you gain participation?

I mean a fairly simple solution to this otherwise that would require coordinated effort across servers to exploit would be to halt participation drop for a short while when you have done damage to an enemy player.

That way players fighting are still technically participating in WvW, unlike how it is now.

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@Dawdler.8521 said:

@L A T I O N.8923 said:I mean the only thing they can do is add if you die you'd get the 10 mins reset of a fight on your participation.

I agree with you that if i fight people and i die i should get participation of the fight.

But to be fair: how would you actually like to see it changed, without having people to mayorly abuse the systemThe question is should you
gain
participation?

I mean a fairly simple solution to this otherwise that would require coordinated effort across servers to exploit would be to halt participation drop for a short while when you have done damage to an enemy player.

That way players fighting are still technically participating in WvW, unlike how it is now.

Technicly 2 Guardians in minstrel gear autoattacking eachother with a mace would grant Them Infinite participation then?

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@L A T I O N.8923 said:

@L A T I O N.8923 said:I mean the only thing they can do is add if you die you'd get the 10 mins reset of a fight on your participation.

I agree with you that if i fight people and i die i should get participation of the fight.

But to be fair: how would you actually like to see it changed, without having people to mayorly abuse the systemThe question is should you
gain
participation?

I mean a fairly simple solution to this otherwise that would require coordinated effort across servers to exploit would be to halt participation drop for a short while when you have done damage to an enemy player.

That way players fighting are still technically participating in WvW, unlike how it is now.

Technicly 2 Guardians in minstrel gear autoattacking eachother with a mace would grant Them Infinite participation then?I dont know about you but I consider two guardians being completely useless a good thing.

Simple to prevent that type of exploit though, just time out after a certain amount of time in combat. Like, you get... 2 minutes of "halt participation drop" after damaging another player, but it wont be refreshed until after you've been out of combat. Now you'd have to do some fancy botting.

Or if you want to be simpler, you could also say that dying to another player counts as participating in WvW. It's a strange concept, I know. Even if that's botted as well, well the bot is participating.

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