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WvW Participation needs Massive overhaul


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@Tuna Bandit.3786 said:This system discriminated roamers and small defending groups.

I am sorry to disagree with you.

The reward system is well intended to create a fair experience for all and you are not understanding it.

  1. Contesting and stalling slows progress of the attacking side and making the game less rewarding for them and your small group defenders of 10 could easily group together and go offense to capture some undefined objects.
  2. As you mentioned, dropping supplies and escorting for roamers are rewarded, roaming is not punished. If a roamer tried to stall a group of 30 attackers of another server from capturing, the roamer is creating a less rewarding experience for maybe 25 of those players assuming the other 5 tagged the roamer and got a bag or something.
  3. The message is clear. Stalling offense makes the game less rewarding as a result defenders are equally less rewarded to create a fair system.
  4. This is very fair and not a bug.
  5. Players could say this makes the game more like a PVE game, rewarding contactless playing style and this only true if you are only interested in maximizing rewards. If you found it is fun to contest and stall, you can still do it but because your delays others from receiving their rewards, your rewards are stalled, just to be fair.
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@Lord of Rings.5371 said:

@Tuna Bandit.3786 said:This system discriminated roamers and small defending groups.

I am sorry to disagree with you.

The reward system is well intended to create a fair experience for all and you are not understanding it.
  1. Contesting and stalling slows progress of the attacking side and making the game less rewarding for them and your small group defenders of 10 could easily group together and go offense to capture some undefined objects.
  2. As you mentioned, dropping supplies and escorting for roamers are rewarded, roaming is not punished. If a roamer tried to stall a group of 30 attackers of another server from capturing, the roamer is creating a less rewarding experience for maybe 25 of those players assuming the other 5 tagged the roamer and got a bag or something.
  3. The message is clear. Stalling offense makes the game less rewarding as a result defenders are equally less rewarded to create a fair system.
  4. This is very fair and not a bug.
  5. Players could say this makes the game more like a PVE game, rewarding contactless playing style and this only true if you are only interested in maximizing rewards. If you found it is fun to contest and stall, you can still do it but because your delays others from receiving their rewards, your rewards are stalled, just to be fair.

Or in other words, don't bother defending anything or getting in the way of the karma train and just go flip something else. .............................................................

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@Baldrick.8967 said:

@Tuna Bandit.3786 said:This system discriminated roamers and small defending groups.

I am sorry to disagree with you.

The reward system is well intended to create a fair experience for all and you are not understanding it.
  1. Contesting and stalling slows progress of the attacking side and making the game less rewarding for them and your small group defenders of 10 could easily group together and go offense to capture some undefined objects.
  2. As you mentioned, dropping supplies and escorting for roamers are rewarded, roaming is not punished. If a roamer tried to stall a group of 30 attackers of another server from capturing, the roamer is creating a less rewarding experience for maybe 25 of those players assuming the other 5 tagged the roamer and got a bag or something.
  3. The message is clear. Stalling offense makes the game less rewarding as a result defenders are equally less rewarded to create a fair system.
  4. This is very fair and not a bug.
  5. Players could say this makes the game more like a PVE game, rewarding contactless playing style and this only true if you are only interested in maximizing rewards. If you found it is fun to contest and stall, you can still do it but because your delays others from receiving their rewards, your rewards are stalled, just to be fair.

Or in other words, don't bother defending anything or getting in the way of the karma train and just go flip something else. .............................................................

If all you want is rewards? Then yes.

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Be smarter about your activities and pick your fights. You can waste your time, participation, and whatever xp/loot buff you might have on a pointless unwinnable battle to save the keep for zero rewards or you can forget about the keep go to a different map and do something constructive that will keep your participation up and give you loot. The choice is yours. If you are outnumbered 5 to one and there isn't a hope in hell that you can save the keep, why stay? All you are doing is giving them one more kill.

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@"Lord of Rings.5371" said:

  1. The message is clear. Stalling offense makes the game less rewarding as a result defenders are equally less rewarded to create a fair system.

This says far more about your tastes than the actual game the rest of us are playing.

Stalling is a built-in necessity; with rare exceptions, nobody has the resources to adequately cover all maps, let alone the keeps and towers on those maps. To have a hope in defending, you must stall. All of us have had our successful defenses, our heroic stands that paid off...this stuff is the meat of the game.

To the OP, I agree there are problems, but I think the other posters are correct that the problems are there to prevent cheating & collusion. The best thing to do is either a) ignore it and have fun, or b) game the system just a bit; use your supply at the right time to extend your participation.

-Jeff

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I have had my participation drop levels just trying to take a lightly defended keep. The enemy harasses but is never killed and I just wait while they run the keep out of supply repairing the door/wall all the while watching my participation drop. I only show up for a keep take if peeps are already on the inside door/wall.

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@Voltekka.2375 said:Step 1: cap sm (be blue or Green for better results)Step 2: have a buddy on Red eb keep treb outer smStep 3: permarepair the wall.This works if you defend any structure, as well. Skip all combat, repair a wall, repeat

See this pretty often. Not saying they know each other at all, just people afk repairing more or less. Some do act like bots, however I have seen one person drain almost 1k supply from SM by repairing walls that were being actively trebbed. Trying to talk to them gets nothing in chat, PMing they are often set to offline mode, and they have a pause each time they go to the supply hut, and then pause again once going to a wall for a second or two and then starts repairing, or it will go to a close wall, pause (but wall is 100%), then move to the next and next until they get to a wall that can be repaired. I have no proof this is not a person, but yeah....Very suspicious.

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I dunno why people would come in here and tell others don't bother to defend, there have been a lot of great moments for me in defending objectives. Then we have vets that sit here and say we don't want eotm ktrain, but then we have vets that also come in here and say defense is too strong it takes too long to run over something, nerf siege and everything defenders have for an advantage, and now it's down to don't bother to defend? No one wants to put in some work for their fun anyone, let's just turn wvw into zombie ktrain mode already.

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They put a lot of work into balancing participation when it was introduced, and I think it has been in a good place ever since. There are occasions like the one described in the OP where players suffer decay when they arguably shouldn't, but they are rare and would be difficult to prevent without introducing significant exploits . . .

To me, legitimate fights are rare enough these days that sacrificing a few ticks of max participation is a tradeoff I'll gleefully accept . . .

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@kratan.4619 said:I have had my participation drop levels just trying to take a lightly defended keep. The enemy harasses but is never killed and I just wait while they run the keep out of supply repairing the door/wall all the while watching my participation drop.Veteran Guards provide 2 minutes of participation. They respawn every 3 minutes. There are also plenty of them. Heck, even Quartermasters provide participation.

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@"Tuna Bandit.3786" said:This system discriminated roamers and small defending groups.

Let me explain what is wrong with it:Today a large group attacked our Keep (succesfully). We were only with like 10 people defending, nothing we could do really, but we tried.I died several times trying to contest and stall time to get more in, but it didn't work.The enemy group was too tight to even kill a single person.

Now while that happened, my participation bleeded from full tier 6 to tier 3.I am here to fully agrue this system. What I did was according to ArenaNet NOT participating.I was being punished as if I was AFK.

Run a Yak in save place where it makes NO impact "Ow you are participating! Look at you go!!"Drop a few supply in a wall that's 99% "Wow, you are working so hard! Here! you are save from Participation bleeding for 5 whole minutes!"

Fight hard to defend an objective but fail to get a kill in: "Get out of here, Slacker! Here is a punishment! You don't deserve Participation!"

Before we talk about Balance, let's talk about a FAIR system for Participation.

Untill then... I will report this time and time again as a BUG that BLOCKS PROGRESS because looking at it logically...THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT THIS IS!

Edited Title to fix Spell issueMayor changed into Massive (since Major is also a militairy rank - sorry for the error)

What is considered participation needs to be reviewed and adjusted. I think overhauled here is a bit much but do agree you shouldn't lose participation while active in WvW.

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