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@Fueki.4753 said:

@"Dante.1763" said:hence why the tengu have a city near LA.

Is there any proof for this to be related to the Canthan politics?I remember Tengu being in Kryta before Factions was a thing.

"In 1127 AE, Kisu's successor, Usoku, finished what the Ministry had started and annexed the vassal states of Kurzick and Luxon back into the empire, before beginning a campaign to drive out non-humans such as tengu and dredge. Against the might of the Canthan military, the tengu had no choice but to flee north, to Tyria and Elona. "

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I'm not going to judge until the Season is over, for several reasons. But I will say that honestly, I think the maps themselves are turning out to be expansion-level.

Set aside eilte specs and other features and such and just compare the now-complete Bjora Marches to Crystal Oasis and Verdant Brink, the first maps of their respective expansions (I'm taking the idea of Grothmar Valley as a prologue at face value, so we'll call Bjora the "first" map of the season). Honestly, I think it holds up pretty well.

Compared to Crystal Oasis, I think it has a lot more happening event-wise, the metas are better than the Casino, it has more jumping puzzles, and the world building/storytelling is pretty comparable.

On the other hand, Verdant Brink might edge it out event-wise, but I think it's definitely in the same league. The blizzard meta was a bit bland before, but now that the population is spread between the two metas it's actually much more engaging with fewer people. And Drakkar is definitely one of the better world bosses, even if it doesn't quite present the TT-level challenge people were hoping for. And storytelling/lore-wise I think Bjora is much better.

If HoT was the "intense farmable map-meta" expansion and PoF was the "exploration" expansion, I think the Icebrood Saga so far is striking a good balance between the two. Which naturally maybe doesn't please people who wanted one or the other.

Bjora Marches also has, in my opinion, better rewards in terms of armor/weapon skins than either of the others, at least through the collections (Verdant Brink wins for meta loot). And if you think of Strike Missions as part of the map, they seem to be a lot more popular than things like Adventures ever were.

So map-wise, I honestly think this is expansion-level. Not every expansion map was mind-blowing, and I think Bjora Marches is, while not leading the pack, definitely a solid entry. We'll have to wait and see if Anet has any plans to produce other expansion-level features like e-specs or radically game-changing masteries like mounts/gliding. But map-wise, I think the Icebrood Saga so far is a step above the usual Living Story maps.

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It's too early to judge, we'll have to at lest wait till the next 2 chapters or so.Fornitnto be considered expansion level content IMO, we would need to have :-a new character selection screen and music, hot and pof had it.-a game play change, like gliders in hot and mounts in pof.-New specs, both expacs had them.-strikes would be the equivalent of pof bounties and hot raids I guess so that's covered.I'm okay with them doing this slowly during the chapters. But we've had a prologue and chapters 1 and 2 and the only expac level content are strikes so far. So I'm worried "expansion level" content was just a marketing tool to have people calm down because we don't have any planned expac and it's just a living world season.We'll have to wait and see

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"Obtena.7952" said:What even IS expansion level content?

I kinda feel like this is the most important aspect to consider.

Most complaints about "not expansion level content" is about the lack of raids/fractals, updates to PvP and WvW, legendary gear, new type of PvE content, masteries, and elite specializations.

But neither expansion actually provided fractals
or
raids (our first raid came out a full month after HoT). Same with legendary gear. Those two were always primarily Living World content types. PoF didn't update PvP or WvW either, while we're expecting such for Icebrood Saga in Q1 in theory. Icebrood Saga
has
provided new type of PvE content (Strikes) and masteries (while the current one's aren't the best things ever, neither were 90% of HoT's, and we're also 4x as many masteries per episode as S3 or S4). Thus, the only thing we're lacking from complaints, is elite specializations.

We're 3 releases in, and I'd say we got half of an expansion's worth already, personally.

I think this is off the mark or deliberately trying to tie expacs to smth they arent. It was a complain that expwcs didnt drop with fractals and raids not a feature ppl smth got the idea of.

What makes expacs expacs is pmuch 2 things: 1 quantity: simply pu 4, 5 maps of story and event is almost a lw season on its own. 2 the features: 5 mounts for pof and gliding for hot, ghs and elite specs along with a new class.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Inculpatus cedo.9234" said:I'll judge after the Season/Saga is over.

Keep in mind that the developers said that we are -already- getting expansion level content, saying that cooking at 500 and build templates are expansion level features. Even though the cooking update came before the Saga started.

Answering the question regarding expansion-tier features:

If you look at the history of what we’ve been doing, cooking 500 was another one of these things. Obviously, built-in gear templates are one of those things that we would want to consider in there.

The real question on the topic: "What is expansion level content?" and would most likely have many many different answers depending on the player asked.

Speaking for myself, I was very disappointed to hear that another expansion was not in the works. I didn't care for the core game, but I loved HoT and PoF. They both brought some real game-changers and a ton of content. There is no question I would have pre-ordered the next expansion plus whatever extras were offered, had there been one.

Now you're telling me that some overpriced food buffs and an amateur-night cash grab is the new definition of "expansion-level" content? I really hope you're wrong about that. He is wrong about that, right, ANet? Please tell me you aren't going to leave build templates in this embarrassing state? That food buffs are not the best you can do after delivering features like mounts, gliders, and elite specializations? That releasing half of a map and about 10 minutes of story every couple of months isn't all this game has left to offer?

You're better than this. Be better than this! Seriously, ANet. How is GW2 not a shining success story? There are so many amazing things about this game I couldn't begin to list them all. It's maddening that it seems to be in such decline. Is it just chronic mismanagement? A lack of commitment from up top? Why can't we do better?

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@zealex.9410 said:

@"Obtena.7952" said:What even IS expansion level content?

I kinda feel like this is the most important aspect to consider.

Most complaints about "not expansion level content" is about the lack of raids/fractals, updates to PvP and WvW, legendary gear, new type of PvE content, masteries, and elite specializations.

But neither expansion actually provided fractals
or
raids (our first raid came out a full month after HoT). Same with legendary gear. Those two were always primarily Living World content types. PoF didn't update PvP or WvW either, while we're expecting such for Icebrood Saga in Q1 in theory. Icebrood Saga
has
provided new type of PvE content (Strikes) and masteries (while the current one's aren't the best things ever, neither were 90% of HoT's, and we're also 4x as many masteries per episode as S3 or S4). Thus, the only thing we're lacking from complaints, is elite specializations.

We're 3 releases in, and I'd say we got half of an expansion's worth already, personally.

I think this is off the mark or deliberately trying to tie expacs to smth they arent. It was a complain that expwcs didnt drop with fractals and raids not a feature ppl smth got the idea of.

What makes expacs expacs is pmuch 2 things: 1 quantity: simply pu 4, 5 maps of story and event is almost a lw season on its own. 2 the features: 5 mounts for pof and gliding for hot, ghs and elite specs along with a new class.

As you say, in the season we'll get the number of maps (and story). As for features, while masteries aren't something grand yet but they're nicely numerous and have the chance to improve, and we also got several features with Icebrood Saga: 500 Chef (to match Scribe's introduction with HoT), Build Loadouts, and dyable backpacks/capes.

It is sad that they decided to so heavily monetize build loadouts (and falsely name them), but in all technicality they are features on par to what HoT and PoF added.

New professions won't ever occur - Anet said they added revenant only to even out the profession numbers per class. At best, we'd get a new race but that seems highly unlikely given all the work that'd be needed.

So, imo, the only thing we're truly missing would be a guild hall and elite specializations.

@"AliamRationem.5172" said:Now you're telling me that some overpriced food buffs and an amateur-night cash grab is the new definition of "expansion-level" content?

Because overpriced crafted decorations and new skinnable items to put up on gemstore are totally expansion level content while overpriced crafted food and a new monetized build feature aren't.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"Obtena.7952" said:What even IS expansion level content?

I kinda feel like this is the most important aspect to consider.

Most complaints about "not expansion level content" is about the lack of raids/fractals, updates to PvP and WvW, legendary gear, new type of PvE content, masteries, and elite specializations.

But neither expansion actually provided fractals
or
raids (our first raid came out a full month after HoT). Same with legendary gear. Those two were always primarily Living World content types. PoF didn't update PvP or WvW either, while we're expecting such for Icebrood Saga in Q1 in theory. Icebrood Saga
has
provided new type of PvE content (Strikes) and masteries (while the current one's aren't the best things ever, neither were 90% of HoT's, and we're also 4x as many masteries per episode as S3 or S4). Thus, the only thing we're lacking from complaints, is elite specializations.

We're 3 releases in, and I'd say we got half of an expansion's worth already, personally.

I think this is off the mark or deliberately trying to tie expacs to smth they arent. It was a complain that expwcs didnt drop with fractals and raids not a feature ppl smth got the idea of.

What makes expacs expacs is pmuch 2 things: 1 quantity: simply pu 4, 5 maps of story and event is almost a lw season on its own. 2 the features: 5 mounts for pof and gliding for hot, ghs and elite specs along with a new class.

As you say, in the season we'll get the number of maps (and story). As for features, while masteries aren't something grand yet but they're nicely numerous and have the chance to improve, and we also got several features with Icebrood Saga: 500 Chef (to match Scribe's introduction with HoT), Build Loadouts, and dyable backpacks/capes.

It is sad that they decided to so heavily monetize build loadouts (and falsely name them), but in all technicality they
are
features on par to what HoT and PoF added.

New professions won't ever occur - Anet said they added revenant
only
to even out the profession numbers per class. At best, we'd get a new race but that seems highly unlikely given all the work that'd be needed.

So, imo, the only thing we're
truly
missing would be a guild hall and elite specializations.

@"AliamRationem.5172" said:Now you're telling me that some overpriced food buffs and an amateur-night cash grab is the new definition of "expansion-level" content?

Because overpriced crafted decorations and new skinnable items to put up on gemstore are
totally
expansion level content while overpriced crafted food and a new monetized build feature aren't.

I moreso meant that all the tings an expansion bring it bring in one update. Se5 will run over the course of a year and a jalf likely.

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@"zealex.9410" said:I moreso meant that all the tings an expansion bring it bring in one update. Se5 will run over the course of a year and a jalf likely.

Then your argument is "it isn't an expansion" not "it doesn't have expansion-like features/content".

Those two are vastly different things, and ArenaNet isn't promising the former. They're promising expansion-like features and content over the course of Season 5. The release cadence should be the only difference when we're done.

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@"maddoctor.2738" said:The real question on the topic: "What is expansion level content?" and would most likely have many many different answers depending on the player asked.

We can look at what Anet itself defined in the past as expansion level content: It is the content that is included in the past expansions HoT and PoF, but it is not the content of Season 3 or Season 4.

Anet last year also said, that build templates should be considered also expansion level content. Sure, why not. But it would be a very small part of all the items of an expansion and it would be fully included in that expansion, that you completely would buy with 30-80 bucks.

But with the greedy F2P-monetization of the "build loadouts" they are not "expansion level", instead they are F2P-level. Because for the price of the full loadouts/slots for all my characters , I could (in the past) buy at least 5-10 expansions.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"zealex.9410" said:I moreso meant that all the tings an expansion bring it bring in one update. Se5 will run over the course of a year and a jalf likely.

Then your argument is "it isn't an expansion" not "it doesn't have expansion-like features/content".

Those two are
vastly
different things, and ArenaNet isn't promising the former. They're promising expansion-like features and content over the course of Season 5. The release cadence
should
be the only difference when we're done.

My arguement is that a living word update doesnt have the quantity of content an expansion has a most of the features, (9 elite specs to none, 5 mounts to 2 and we might not even see a mount this season).

You arguement was that ppl claimed lw aint expansion content because it hasnt had any raids or fractals so far, which honestly hasnt really been the case. It was always about the quantity and the elite specs.

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@zealex.9410 said:

@zealex.9410 said:I moreso meant that all the tings an expansion bring it bring in one update. Se5 will run over the course of a year and a jalf likely.

Then your argument is "it isn't an expansion" not "it doesn't have expansion-like features/content".

Those two are
vastly
different things, and ArenaNet isn't promising the former. They're promising expansion-like features and content over the course of Season 5. The release cadence
should
be the only difference when we're done.

My arguement is that a living word update doesnt have the quantity of content an expansion has a most of the features, (9 elite specs to none, 5 mounts to 2 and we might not even see a mount this season).

You arguement was that ppl claimed lw aint expansion content because it hasnt had any raids or fractals so far, which honestly hasnt really been the case. It was always about the quantity and the elite specs.

That is the common argument I see on reddit, actually; that it isn't expansion-level content because there's no end-game content.

And of course a single episode won't be a full expansion's worth. You cannot honestly expect such ever will be the case. And ArenaNet never even suggested such - it's like being told "we'll give you a full orange in slices" and you get such, but two slices in you complain "but you promised several full apples!"

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@zealex.9410 said:I moreso meant that all the tings an expansion bring it bring in one update. Se5 will run over the course of a year and a jalf likely.

Then your argument is "it isn't an expansion" not "it doesn't have expansion-like features/content".

Those two are
vastly
different things, and ArenaNet isn't promising the former. They're promising expansion-like features and content over the course of Season 5. The release cadence
should
be the only difference when we're done.

My arguement is that a living word update doesnt have the quantity of content an expansion has a most of the features, (9 elite specs to none, 5 mounts to 2 and we might not even see a mount this season).

You arguement was that ppl claimed lw aint expansion content because it hasnt had any raids or fractals so far, which honestly hasnt really been the case. It was always about the quantity and the elite specs.

That is the common argument I see on reddit, actually; that it isn't expansion-level content because there's no end-game content.

And of course a
single
episode won't be a full expansion's worth. You cannot honestly expect such ever will be the case. And ArenaNet never even suggested such - it's like being told "we'll give you a full orange in slices" and you get such, but two slices in you complain "but you promised several full apples!"

I guess i was mostly looking on the forums then? What i saw being complained is that theres too little content and the content itself isnt all that amazing.

Ofc a lw update wont have the quantity so then you should look at the features, so far the masteries dont hold a candle to the expansion ones, we havent seen elite specs and most features outside of those 2 only happened because anet could monetise them.

And on the subject of raids a fractals, no they arent lw or expansion content but they did run before and right after expansions so ppl that liked such content still had them, we havent seen any new ones for months (none during se5 and wont likely see for a while)

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@zealex.9410 said:

@zealex.9410 said:I moreso meant that all the tings an expansion bring it bring in one update. Se5 will run over the course of a year and a jalf likely.

Then your argument is "it isn't an expansion" not "it doesn't have expansion-like features/content".

Those two are
vastly
different things, and ArenaNet isn't promising the former. They're promising expansion-like features and content over the course of Season 5. The release cadence
should
be the only difference when we're done.

My arguement is that a living word update doesnt have the quantity of content an expansion has a most of the features, (9 elite specs to none, 5 mounts to 2 and we might not even see a mount this season).

You arguement was that ppl claimed lw aint expansion content because it hasnt had any raids or fractals so far, which honestly hasnt really been the case. It was always about the quantity and the elite specs.

That is the common argument I see on reddit, actually; that it isn't expansion-level content because there's no end-game content.

And of course a
single
episode won't be a full expansion's worth. You cannot honestly expect such ever will be the case. And ArenaNet never even suggested such - it's like being told "we'll give you a full orange in slices" and you get such, but two slices in you complain "but you promised several full apples!"

I guess i was mostly looking on the forums then? What i saw being complained is that theres too little content and the content itself isnt all that amazing.

Ofc a lw update wont have the quantity so then you should look at the features, so far the masteries dont hold a candle to the expansion ones, we havent seen elite specs and most features outside of those 2 only happened because anet could monetise them.

And on the subject of raids a fractals, no they arent lw or expansion content but they did run before and right after expansions so ppl that liked such content still had them, we havent seen any new ones for months (none during se5 and wont likely see for a while)

They've not monetized chef 500. Unless you're counting the two original garden plots, which would technically be demonetizing them to a degree. As to masteries, I would say the 13 we've gotten in the past two episodes are all far superior to every mastery in the Pact Commander, Legendary Crafting, Fractal Attunement, Exalted, Itzel, and Nuhoch mastery lines - in other words, better than 85% of HoT's masteries.

Hell, I bet most people don't even remember those masteries exist.

The only time raids came "around an expansion" was Spirit Vale. And of the 7 raid wings we have, 4 literally came with, or shortly after, a LW episode. So they are far more "LW content" than "expansion content". Even ignoring that, Strikes have been coming with every episode, and they're meant as a lead-in to raids, with the recent one being said to be nearly raid-boss levels from what I've heard from raiders.

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To my eyes, what we got is even hardly a new LS episode. Main thing is, we have no new area. It's only a zone added to existing area Bjora Marches. It has several - for me - sad consequences:

  • No area completion (if already done before, it doesn't reset with new zone. We can complete additional pois and vistas, but without reward for that).
  • No new home node (because same area so same nodes).

Beside, in term of content, there is again no JP (sorry, for me the lighting puzzles are no JPs), what I personally miss. Also I find the amount of possibilities to earn mastery points quite limited. It's doable of course, but it doesn't let much flexibility to favorize activities we like over those we don't.

So, all in all, for me it's a global disappointment.

Side note: I find the strike mission a lot harder than the meta.

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@"Dreamy Lu.3865" said:To my eyes, what we got is even hardly a new LS episode. Main thing is, we have no new area. It's only a zone added to existing area Bjora Marches. It has several - for me - sad consequences:

  • No area completion (if already done before, it doesn't reset with new zone. We can complete additional pois and vistas, but without reward for that).
  • No new home node (because same area so same nodes).

Beside, in term of content, there is again no JP (sorry, for me the lighting puzzles are no JPs), what I personally miss. Also I find the amount of possibilities to earn mastery points quite limited. It's doable of course, but it doesn't let much flexibility to favorize activities we like over those we don't.

So, all in all, for me it's a global disappointment.

Side note: I find the strike mission a lot harder than the meta.

There is a map completion reward for the new map. It's just a different kind of exploration.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Chest_of_the_Bjora_Marches_Explorer

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I guess we'll have to wait and see, but I'm not really seeing it yet.

I can't count strike missions because they really just feel like a new iteration of existing systems that have been watered down or reduced. We got Bounties with Path of Fire, and we lost those, seemingly raids and fractals - all in favor of a rotating weekly boss that offers no real incentives or rewards outside of map currency for a weapon set that many people may not even want! They can be fun, but I don't think they're worth coming back to beyond trying to get achievements. Bounties weren't overly fun either, but they were required for getting currency needed to make legendaries. They really aren't the same experience as fractals or raids though.

Visions however have potential, but like they do with many systems they add into the game will likely abandon them. They're also kind of niche from what I can tell right now, but I'll wait and see it before I make a decision. I think out of anything I've seen so far these have the most potential to be expansion-worthy. Especially if they have rewards or benefits to other game modes, i.e. cosmetics/titles/minis/skins etc. If they ever decided to add another elite spec they could even make these as a way of obtaining hero points via achievements or bonus missions or something. Could also be a way to fill in some of the smaller parts of the open world map that aren't really large enough to warrant a standard map. They could explore stories that aren't as connected to the main plot, and could wind up being like fractals in the sense that you could choose particular stories to replay, Malyck, Ryland, Wizard's Tower, Joko, etc.

They could also make Hall of Monuments similar to Sun's Refuge and allow players to obtain certain things within the visions to upgrade their Hall of Monuments instance. Granted that's similar to Sun's Refuge that we got during a living season, but if they find a way to make it relevant in more than just this season or beneficial in more game modes it could be cool. Say, adding rotating unlockable vendors that sell rare items like cosmetics, guild hall decorations, or unique food/utility buffs.

I think people are just tired of having high hopes when they tease that they have something super special coming, and then that day comes and goes and we have a presentation about Funko Pops or living story episodes that deliver the same content as the previous season just split in half. Or the Boneskinner fiasco in which everyone was hyped up for it to wind up being an champ spawned by an escort that dies in three hits and has some pretty uninteresting mechanics to begin with. (The doppleganger in Elon Riverlands was WAY scarier to me.)

Anyway, I'll stop. lol

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:They've not monetized chef 500. Unless you're counting the two original garden plots, which would technically be demonetizing them to a degree.It's the opposite - the whole cooking 500 revolves around the timegate in using garden plots which are a gemstore purchase. Yes, you get one for free, but to reach the full effectiveness, you need all 3 - and that means buying 2 of them. There was no such tie-in to a gemstore purchase for any of the previous level 500 crafting disciplines. There didn;t have to be any such connection for cooking - but they still decided to do it that way. Don't think that the whole system's core functionality being so strongly tied to a gemshop item was accidental. Sure, it might not have been as atrocious as in the case of build templates, but it was monetization nonetheless.

As to masteries, I would say the 13 we've gotten in the past two episodes are all far superior to every mastery in the Pact Commander, Legendary Crafting, Fractal Attunement, Exalted, Itzel, and Nuhoch mastery lines - in other words, better than 85% of HoT's masteries.

Hell, I bet most people don't even remember those masteries exist.People might not remember that Pact Commander or Fractal Attunement masteries exist, but they are still benefitting from them constantly. Each of those lines alone is vastly more useful than all the IBS ones together. I do agree on Exalted, Itzel and Nuhoh ones, though, as they weren;t exactly useful outside HoT, and a lot of mastery tiers in those lines were just used for a few very specific cases. Some of those could have been more useful if they were extended beyond HoT (seeing stealthed mobs, for example), but that never actually happened.

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I will judge when it is over but if you just look at story content it is on track with every other season (6 episodes containing 5 instances each) and xpac, HoT was 4 act and 17 chapters, and PoF 3 acts 16 chapters. Map wise I I think it will be coming up short but I am fine with that. The addition of strikes, rumors of new fractals and a raid wing. Probably won't any elite specs and I'd rather they hold off on that until they get the current game balance under control. I believe that content wise it will be comparable to the xpacs but will it be the content that players were asking for?

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