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No elite specs = no expansion worthy content, for me.

With every episode, we get all the same stuff. The only thing, that didn't appear, but is a part of previous two expansios, are elite specs.Like I said in my posts before - it's my main drive to complete the map, to do stuff, to play the game, to be dragged kicking and screaming into it. Nothing else.

Hell, I don't care about the story that much anymore.

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an expansion pack adds something entirely new, the masteries are extremely map exclusive and beyond that we see nothing we could normally not do.it's still to early to judge but if they truly are trying to make expansion worthy LS content then i expect a elite spec in the future with something groundbreaking like gliders and mounds have done, it's that or a truly big xpac in the near future.

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@sorudo.9054 said:an expansion pack adds something entirely new, the masteries are extremely map exclusive and beyond that we see nothing we could normally not do.it's still to early to judge but if they truly are trying to make expansion worthy LS content then i expect a elite spec in the future with something groundbreaking like gliders and mounds have done, it's that or a truly big xpac in the near future.

Visons of the past seem to be something entierly new so we might get it soonish.

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@Zok.4956 said:

@"maddoctor.2738" said:The real question on the topic: "What is expansion level content?" and would most likely have many many different answers depending on the player asked.

We can look at what Anet itself defined in the past as expansion level content: It is the content that is included in the past expansions HoT and PoF, but it is not the content of Season 3 or Season 4.

Anet last year also said, that build templates should be considered also expansion level content. Sure, why not. But it would be a very small part of all the items of an expansion and it would be fully included in that expansion, that you completely would buy with 30-80 bucks.

But with the greedy F2P-monetization of the "build loadouts" they are not "expansion level", instead they are F2P-level. Because for the price of the full loadouts/slots for all my characters , I could (in the past) buy at least 5-10 expansions.

Wait ... WHY is it not the content of season 3 or 4 allowed 'in'? You're saying what Anet defines but I haven't seen anywhere Anet excluded that kind of content from expansions. Sounds like someone wanting to justify their opinion with their own twisted interpretation of "What Anet Says".

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"Donari.5237" said:the question is about the
current
content.

Then the question remains meaningless for the same reasons: Not enough to judge it by.Nah, it just means that all the people saying "we shouldn't judge it yet" feel that what has been shown so far wasn't expansion level yet.

That's the same thing ... anyone that thinks they are going to see an expansions-amount of expansion level content in 3 episodes is being very unreasonable indeed.
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This isn't so simple as yes / no. It provides a level of expansion like content in the current iteration, however it is still missing some major components that would put it on "expansion" or paid box level of depth. There are two major things that the saga is going to need to really start putting it on the radar of those that are currently not playing the game. Not to say that what we have had is not good or not high quality enough, but that it does not bring in nearly as many new players which are the lifeblood of any online game. The two things this saga needs to really turn it into an "expansion" is a new starting point and another gameplay layer.

Starting PointsIn MMOs this often comes in the form of new races, new professions and new starting regions for new players to begin their adventure. In the case of Guild Wars 2, this is likely going to have to come in the form of Elite Specializations. We might not have to add new starting zones or races for this game as much as others and the only reason I mention the need of a starting point is because this is a 7 year old game. It's intimidating getting started in a title like this if you are a true new player that knows nothing about the game and the world it inhabits.

"How do I play?" "What kind of profession should I play?" " Are there roles I need or should fulfill?" "What is the endgame like?"

Giving new players and veterans alike something new to start from and work towards functions as both new content as well as a welcome mat for new players.

Gameplay LayerWe found this in Heart of Thorns in the form of gliding, exploration and the Mastery System. Path of Fire we found this in mounts and a further expansion of the Mastery System. We need that same idea in the Icebrood Saga, something that adds another layer of depth or a brand new way for players to interact with the content we have. Arenanet continues to expand on the Mastery System as it usually does through Living World episodes, which is good and provides content and goals to work towards however, it is not another layer of depth nor is it a new way to play the game.

Without a new hook for current, former and new players these new masteries are unlikely to draw anyone in that isn't already logging in regularly and playing.

Bond with swift and clever Raven, a Spirit of the Wild, and use his blessing to open locks, pass through gates, and shield yourself with his light.Learn to collect the essences of resilience, valor, and vigilance, then target enemies’ weaknesses and hit them where it hurts.

Even as a veteran player, there were several words, phrases and things presented here that I did not understand until I actually logged in and played. What is a Spirit of the Wild? Open locks and gates? To what? Shield myself from what? What is an essence exactly and why are they called resilience, valor and vigilance? Are these new stats, new gear? How am I targeting the enemies' weakness? What does any of this mean?

When you actually start playing the content it's not so bad or confusing, but it is not exactly a hook for former or new players that are on the fence about dedicating time and money to this game of ours.

So we need a new starting point for players that feeds into the current saga as well as a new gameplay layer that is either more depth to what we already know and love, or is a brand new thing we haven't seen before.

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@"rrusse.7058" said:This isn't so simple as yes / no. It provides a level of expansion like content in the current iteration, however it is still missing some major components that would put it on "expansion" or paid box level of depth. There are two major things that the saga is going to need to really start putting it on the radar of those that are currently not playing the game. Not to say that what we have had is not good or not high quality enough, but that it does not bring in nearly as many new players which are the lifeblood of any online game. The two things this saga needs to really turn it into an "expansion" is a new starting point and another gameplay layer.

Starting PointsIn MMOs this often comes in the form of new races, new professions and new starting regions for new players to begin their adventure. In the case of Guild Wars 2, this is likely going to have to come in the form of Elite Specializations. We might not have to add new starting zones or races for this game as much as others and the only reason I mention the need of a starting point is because this is a 7 year old game. It's intimidating getting started in a title like this if you are a true new player that knows nothing about the game and the world it inhabits.

"How do I play?" "What kind of profession should I play?" " Are there roles I need or should fulfill?" "What is the endgame like?"

Giving new players and veterans alike something new to start from and work towards functions as both new content as well as a welcome mat for new players.

Gameplay LayerWe found this in Heart of Thorns in the form of gliding, exploration and the Mastery System. Path of Fire we found this in mounts and a further expansion of the Mastery System. We need that same idea in the Icebrood Saga, something that adds another layer of depth or a brand new way for players to interact with the content we have. Arenanet continues to expand on the Mastery System as it usually does through Living World episodes, which is good and provides content and goals to work towards however, it is not another layer of depth nor is it a new way to play the game.

Without a new hook for current, former and new players these new masteries are unlikely to draw anyone in that isn't already logging in regularly and playing.

Bond with swift and clever Raven, a Spirit of the Wild, and use his blessing to open locks, pass through gates, and shield yourself with his light.Learn to collect the essences of resilience, valor, and vigilance, then target enemies’ weaknesses and hit them where it hurts.

Even as a veteran player, there were several words, phrases and things presented here that I did not understand until I actually logged in and played. What is a Spirit of the Wild? Open locks and gates? To what? Shield myself from what? What is an essence exactly and why are they called resilience, valor and vigilance? Are these new stats, new gear? How am I targeting the enemies' weakness? What does any of this mean?

When you actually start playing the content it's not so bad or confusing, but it is not exactly a hook for former or new players that are on the fence about dedicating time and money to this game of ours.

So we need a new starting point for players that feeds into the current saga as well as a new gameplay layer that is either more depth to what we already know and love, or is a brand new thing we haven't seen before.

As a veteran player, how did you not know what a Spirit of the WIld is?I highly doubt the entire lore of one of the five playable races would slip by a veteran.

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The Icebrood Saga has a starting point/region, just as Heart of Thorns did, and just as Path of Fire did. It starts a new story arc and takes place in a new region. So, I'm confused about that statement.As far as a 'tutorial' for either expansion or the Saga, we have core Tyria.Who knows what Masteries may bring us before the Saga is concluded? Could be more of the same, could be something game-changing.

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@Fueki.4753 said:As a veteran player, how did you not know what a Spirit of the WIld is?I highly doubt the entire lore of one of the five playable races would slip by a veteran.Of all the points I brought up, this is the single one that you feel requires discussion and elaboration?

Say it is clear to a veteran player what a Spirit of the Wild is. Great. Why exactly am I supposed to be excited about playing? Because it is a Spirit of the Wild? What does it even mean to bond with raven? The idea is unclear regardless if a player knows or does not know who or what Raven is.

What is inherently exciting about this as a pitch to play the game? What about everything else that Arenanet presents as an advertising point? Opening gates and locks? Shield myself? Use essence?

Does any of that make sense? Does any of it entice a player whether new or a veteran player to log in and start right away? I'd argue that a lot of it is too vague and/or requires a clear understanding of the game already to be interesting. They're all nice things, but this is not what draws people in. Not like gliding. Not like mounts.

Gliding is very clear, interesting and exciting. I know what I am getting whether I am new or not. I can enjoy it regardless of how much I know about the game world.

Mounts are offer a new, clear and interesting way of moving through the world. This too does not affect my experience whether I am new or an old player. It is fun no matter how involved I am in the game.

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@Zok.4956 said:

@"maddoctor.2738" said:The real question on the topic: "What is expansion level content?" and would most likely have many many different answers depending on the player asked.

We can look at what Anet itself defined in the past as expansion level content: It is the content that is included in the past expansions HoT and PoF, but it is not the content of Season 3 or Season 4.

Anet last year also said, that build templates should be considered also expansion level content. Sure, why not. But it would be a very small part of all the items of an expansion and it would be fully included in that expansion, that you completely would buy with 30-80 bucks.

But with the greedy F2P-monetization of the "build loadouts" they are not "expansion level", instead they are F2P-level. Because for the price of the full loadouts/slots for all my characters , I could (in the past) buy at least 5-10 expansions.

Wait ... WHY is it not the content of season 3 or 4 allowed 'in'? You're saying what Anet defines but I haven't seen anywhere Anet excluded that kind of content from expansions.

It has nothing to do with what is allowed and what not, or if content of a season is not also allowed in an expansion. I was just stating the obvious.

HoT and PoF are expansions. Season 3 and Season 4 are not expansions, they are seasons (before/after expansions).

So, if you want to look at what "expansion level" could mean, look at all the content/things that Anet in the past already included in an expansion.

If Anet wants to include "expansion level" content and also "season level" content in the Saga (Season 5), that would be fine by me, but that was not the original question.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@coso.9173 said:Well if they keep adding raven gates to future maps then the mastery would be useful in the future. Like with those spring mushrooms.

For it to truly reach the level of iconic expansion masteries, they'd have to retroactively add them to core maps as well. Which we all know is not going to happen.

The didn't do that with the mushrooms and still they're used often as an example of a good mastery till today.

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@coso.9173 said:

@coso.9173 said:Well if they keep adding raven gates to future maps then the mastery would be useful in the future. Like with those spring mushrooms.

For it to truly reach the level of iconic expansion masteries, they'd have to retroactively add them to core maps as well. Which we all know is not going to happen.

The didn't do that with the mushrooms and still they're used often as an example of a good mastery till today.They are, but only as a secondary mastery for HoT. The primary one being
gliding
. For raven portals to be a good mastery, they'd not only need to be used in future episodes, but also would need to play a second fiddle to some primary mastery of comparable usefulness as gliding or mounts. Or they'd need to be useful everywhere, including core and past expansions.
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@Zok.4956 said:

@Zok.4956 said:

@"maddoctor.2738" said:The real question on the topic: "What is expansion level content?" and would most likely have many many different answers depending on the player asked.

We can look at what Anet itself defined in the past as expansion level content: It is the content that is included in the past expansions HoT and PoF, but it is not the content of Season 3 or Season 4.

Anet last year also said, that build templates should be considered also expansion level content. Sure, why not. But it would be a very small part of all the items of an expansion and it would be fully included in that expansion, that you completely would buy with 30-80 bucks.

But with the greedy F2P-monetization of the "build loadouts" they are not "expansion level", instead they are F2P-level. Because for the price of the full loadouts/slots for all my characters , I could (in the past) buy at least 5-10 expansions.

Wait ... WHY is it not the content of season 3 or 4 allowed 'in'? You're saying what Anet defines but I haven't seen anywhere Anet excluded that kind of content from expansions.

It has nothing to do with what is allowed and what not, or if content of a season is not also allowed in an expansion. I was just stating the obvious.

HoT and PoF are expansions. Season 3 and Season 4 are not expansions, they are seasons (before/after expansions).

So, if you want to look at what "expansion level" could mean, look at all the content/things that Anet in the past already included in an expansion.

If Anet wants to include "expansion level" content and also "season level" content in the Saga (Season 5), that would be fine by me, but that was not the original question.

Hold on here. The question is WHAT is expansion level content and your answer is that Anet defined it as what was in expansions and NOT what was in seasonal content. I'm asking you how you come to that conclusion when Anet has never said what was in seasonal content can't be in expansions.

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@"Xenon.4537" said:No, because no elite specs, no new "mount-esque" features, maps are on par with living world, story is extremely short, reward structures are bad, etc.

On reward structures: The boreal weapons are fine. There's a nice progression involving new map currency and crafting resources. The final skins look alright. Good stuff. But the new armor? Are you kidding? Why abandon the systems you developed for elegy and mist armors? They weren't perfect, but your solution is to go all the way back to pure RNG? Really? And what if you don't like the boreal weapons? There's really nothing else to go for. I hope you enjoy emotes.

The only redeeming quality is that the story is decent. Short, but interesting. I feel like I'm watching a mini-series. I'm ready for the full show. Come on.

The new strike mission is much closer to a raid boss than previous strike missions. If this escalation continues (and I hope it doesn't because I think that it will cause strike missions to fail) then the combination of all the strike missions together would be like an easier raid, which is expansion level content, as raids came out as part of the HoT expansion.

People hear expansion level content and they think, automatically that it can only really be something like gliding, mounts or elite specs. Bounties were bosses added in an expansion too that didn't exist before that expansion. WHy are ten man versions of bounties in an instance not considered expansion level content?

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@Zok.4956 said:

@Zok.4956 said:

@"maddoctor.2738" said:The real question on the topic: "What is expansion level content?" and would most likely have many many different answers depending on the player asked.

We can look at what Anet itself defined in the past as expansion level content: It is the content that is included in the past expansions HoT and PoF, but it is not the content of Season 3 or Season 4.

Anet last year also said, that build templates should be considered also expansion level content. Sure, why not. But it would be a very small part of all the items of an expansion and it would be fully included in that expansion, that you completely would buy with 30-80 bucks.

But with the greedy F2P-monetization of the "build loadouts" they are not "expansion level", instead they are F2P-level. Because for the price of the full loadouts/slots for all my characters , I could (in the past) buy at least 5-10 expansions.

Wait ... WHY is it not the content of season 3 or 4 allowed 'in'? You're saying what Anet defines but I haven't seen anywhere Anet excluded that kind of content from expansions.

It has nothing to do with what is allowed and what not, or if content of a season is not also allowed in an expansion. I was just stating the obvious.

HoT and PoF are expansions. Season 3 and Season 4 are not expansions, they are seasons (before/after expansions).

So, if you want to look at what "expansion level" could mean, look at all the content/things that Anet in the past already included in an expansion.

If Anet wants to include "expansion level" content and also "season level" content in the Saga (Season 5), that would be fine by me, but that was not the original question.

Hold on here. The question is WHAT is expansion level content and your answer is that Anet defined it as what was in expansions and NOT what was in seasonal content. I'm asking you how you come to that conclusion when Anet has never said what was in seasonal content can't be in expansions.

The content that is included in the two existing expansions equals to "expansion level". If it would not be "expansion level", it would not be included already in expansions.

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@"Astralporing.1957" said:They are, but only as a secondary mastery for HoT. The primary one being gliding. For raven portals to be a good mastery, they'd not only need to be used in future episodes, but also would need to play a second fiddle to some primary mastery of comparable usefulness as gliding or mounts. Or they'd need to be useful everywhere, including core and past expansions.

I just want to comment on this - the problem with masteries, to me, is that the bulk of them are not useful except for one map. Every one of those, from Itzel to Exalted to whatever those single ones were leading up to PoF, are ones I do not care about at all. I have to think they were cool toys at the time, but coming in late they are way too brief to be worth getting. The uselessness of these masteries have soured me on the idea of new masteries in new maps. I'm not excited about catching up to Icebrood because: oh look, more one-off masteries. I just want to use my own skills to do things, I don't want a weird time-gated semi-grind that won't be useful past the one map to proceed with the story.

However, all that said:

  1. the fact that they finally are including HoT with the purchase of PoF makes me hope they are thinking about incorporating old masteries into new maps as well now that they don't have to be content separated.
  2. the fact they've acknowledged content needs to be designed for replayability and not just one-offs makes me hope they will incorporate more past masteries into new content.

I know people who love new masteries no matter what they are. They feel like the masteries are a good substitute "progression" path to having to get new gear and new levels. It's all subjective.

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@LowestTruth.2635 said:

@"Astralporing.1957" said:They are, but only as a secondary mastery for HoT. The primary one being
gliding
. For raven portals to be a good mastery, they'd not only need to be used in future episodes, but also would need to play a second fiddle to some primary mastery of comparable usefulness as gliding or mounts. Or they'd need to be useful everywhere, including core and past expansions.

I just want to comment on this - the problem with masteries, to me, is that the bulk of them are not useful except for one map. Every one of
those
, from Itzel to Exalted to whatever those single ones were leading up to PoF, are ones I do not care about at all. I have to think they were cool toys at the time, but coming in late they are way too brief to be worth getting. The uselessness of these masteries have soured me on the idea of new masteries in new maps. I'm not excited about catching up to Icebrood because: oh look, more one-off masteries. I just want to use my own skills to do things, I don't want a weird time-gated semi-grind that won't be useful past the one map to proceed with the story.

However, all that said:
  1. the fact that they finally are including HoT with the purchase of PoF makes me hope they are thinking about incorporating old masteries into new maps as well now that they don't have to be content separated.
  2. the fact they've acknowledged content needs to be designed for replayability and not just one-offs makes me hope they will incorporate more past masteries into new content.

I know people who love new masteries no matter what they are. They feel like the masteries are a good substitute "progression" path to having to get new gear and new levels. It's all subjective.

But, they've already done that. Bouncing Mushroom, Ley-lines for Gliding, Adrenal Mushrooms, Roller Beetle walls, Updrafts, etc. All found in maps other than the original(s).

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@"Super Hayes.6890" said:I voted yes simply because there is not an option for "I don't knoe yet." We have a prolugue and two episodes and no way of knowing how many episodes will make up a saga. There is, in fact, not enough information to answer this question yet.Saying that "there's not enough information to answer that question yet" is basically the same as admitting that so far this Saga did not, in fact, supplied any expansion level content. Because if it did supply any, then we would have had enough information to answer OP's question.

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@Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:

But, they've already done that. Bouncing Mushroom, Ley-lines for Gliding, Adrenal Mushrooms, Roller Beetle walls, Updrafts, etc. All found in maps other than the original(s).

They have been doing a better job with this. I am always pleasantly surprised when I find a new bouncing mushroom or updraft. Even though so many players already have access to mounts they continue to consider those that do not yet have them.

There are still so many masteries that do not see use or purpose outside of the maps that they are found on though. Arenanet is stuck between a rock and a hard place on this. What if we want to include something like essence manipulation for episodes 3 and 4? What about the players that start after these episodes are out and do not have access to 1 and 2?

What about essence manipulation after the Icebrood Saga is finished? Will we have a function or purpose for it? What about those that don't have Icebrood Saga and we ask players to use such skills in expansion 3?

A lot of time, energy and effort is put into systems that are used for a few months and never touched again and it's a shame.

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@Zok.4956 said:

@Zok.4956 said:

@Zok.4956 said:

@"maddoctor.2738" said:The real question on the topic: "What is expansion level content?" and would most likely have many many different answers depending on the player asked.

We can look at what Anet itself defined in the past as expansion level content: It is the content that is included in the past expansions HoT and PoF, but it is not the content of Season 3 or Season 4.

Anet last year also said, that build templates should be considered also expansion level content. Sure, why not. But it would be a very small part of all the items of an expansion and it would be fully included in that expansion, that you completely would buy with 30-80 bucks.

But with the greedy F2P-monetization of the "build loadouts" they are not "expansion level", instead they are F2P-level. Because for the price of the full loadouts/slots for all my characters , I could (in the past) buy at least 5-10 expansions.

Wait ... WHY is it not the content of season 3 or 4 allowed 'in'? You're saying what Anet defines but I haven't seen anywhere Anet excluded that kind of content from expansions.

It has nothing to do with what is allowed and what not, or if content of a season is not also allowed in an expansion. I was just stating the obvious.

HoT and PoF are expansions. Season 3 and Season 4 are not expansions, they are seasons (before/after expansions).

So, if you want to look at what "expansion level" could mean, look at all the content/things that Anet in the past already included in an expansion.

If Anet wants to include "expansion level" content and also "season level" content in the Saga (Season 5), that would be fine by me, but that was not the original question.

Hold on here. The question is WHAT is expansion level content and your answer is that Anet defined it as what was in expansions and NOT what was in seasonal content. I'm asking you how you come to that conclusion when Anet has never said what was in seasonal content can't be in expansions.

The content that is included in the two existing expansions equals to "expansion level".

OK so .. content is expansions is expansion-level content .. that goes without saying.

If it (you mean content yes?) would not be "expansion level", it would not be included already in expansions.

No that's not true. There isn't some finite amount of expansion-level content that Anet has already exhausted with the last two expansions. They could literally invent whatever content they want, completely unrestricted by what they did in the past, and include it in a future expansion ... IF they were to release one.

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