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Balance Patch Preview - PvP


Cal Cohen.2358

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@KryTiKaL.3125 said:

@Acelidon.1358 said:The increased CD to rangers Swoop (both gs3 and soulbeast merge)..why? This is mainly a mobility/kiting skill which has nothing to do with the powercreep you're trying to address here. This reduces counterplay which contradicts what the post says about trying to improve counterplay. Also I don't see any other classes mobility skills getting increased CDs like warriors Rush or guards teleports or thieves shortbow 5/teleports.. this change seems pretty counterintuitive

Because both of those skills, on a 1500 range class (when using Longbow obviously), allowed Soulbeast to disengage
very
far away and that had little counterplay when they could just either reset the fight or just nope away entirely. They were especially problematic when they were used
together
which allowed for 2200 units of movement.

Rush is on a 20 second CD, 16 seconds when traited, and even if it is paired with Bull's Charge that is still less distance traveled than double Swoop and on a longer cooldown. As opposed to Swoop (Greatsword) being a 12 second CD, 9 1/2 seconds when traited, and Swoop (Beast Mode) being a 12 second CD. If anything it brings them in line.

As for shortbow, that is tied behind a resource mechanic. Without Trickery a Thief has 12 Initiative, which means Shortbow 5 can be used twice before they are out of initiative, or
with
Trickery it can be used about 2 and a half times. It leaves about 3 initiative left after its used twice in that scenario.

Guards teleports are all also either on longer cooldowns (Judge's Intervention and Merciful Intervention) or much shorter distances (Sword 2) and all require targets as opposed to the Swoop skills.

Again...if anything it brings them more in line. They were
excessive
.

Looking at the bigger picture here it isn't excessive at all..the only block rangers got is now 25s, and pet swap to smokescale (for stealth in combat) also gone, what other defenses do they have? dodging for 2s prot and 3s stealth on lb3? They need that disengage potential now more than ever. Reduce the movement points if you're desperate about it but leave the CD imo

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@Acelidon.1358 said:

@Acelidon.1358 said:The increased CD to rangers Swoop (both gs3 and soulbeast merge)..why? This is mainly a mobility/kiting skill which has nothing to do with the powercreep you're trying to address here. This reduces counterplay which contradicts what the post says about trying to improve counterplay. Also I don't see any other classes mobility skills getting increased CDs like warriors Rush or guards teleports or thieves shortbow 5/teleports.. this change seems pretty counterintuitive

Because both of those skills, on a 1500 range class (when using Longbow obviously), allowed Soulbeast to disengage
very
far away and that had little counterplay when they could just either reset the fight or just nope away entirely. They were especially problematic when they were used
together
which allowed for 2200 units of movement.

Rush is on a 20 second CD, 16 seconds when traited, and even if it is paired with Bull's Charge that is still less distance traveled than double Swoop and on a longer cooldown. As opposed to Swoop (Greatsword) being a 12 second CD, 9 1/2 seconds when traited, and Swoop (Beast Mode) being a 12 second CD. If anything it brings them in line.

As for shortbow, that is tied behind a resource mechanic. Without Trickery a Thief has 12 Initiative, which means Shortbow 5 can be used twice before they are out of initiative, or
with
Trickery it can be used about 2 and a half times. It leaves about 3 initiative left after its used twice in that scenario.

Guards teleports are all also either on longer cooldowns (Judge's Intervention and Merciful Intervention) or much shorter distances (Sword 2) and all require targets as opposed to the Swoop skills.

Again...if anything it brings them more in line. They were
excessive
.

Looking at the bigger picture here it isn't excessive at all..the only block rangers got is now 25s, and pet swap to smokescale (for stealth in combat) also gone, what other defenses do they have? dodging for 2s prot and 3s stealth on lb3? They need that disengage potential now more than ever. Reduce the movement points if you're desperate about it but leave the CD imo

They really don't need it now more than ever because guess what...power damage got reduced so TTK will be longer. Not to mention every other class got hit with similar changes, maybe not all in the mobility department but Soulbeast had it in excess. The cooldowns aren't that much longer, and when traited GS3 Swoop will be 12 seconds with its new 15 second cooldown.

Will it take some adjusting to it? Sure, but you'll adjust to it. Much like a lot of other changes that will happen when this patch hits...it needed to happen.

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Every other class got hit with similar changes, maybe not all in the mobility department but Soulbeast had it in excess.

Already talked about why its not excessive above, and nope, no other class got hit with mobility changes like that.

The cooldowns aren't that much longer, and when traited GS3 Swoop will be 12 seconds with its new 15 second cooldown.

thats a 6 sec cd increase to gs3 swoop, and an 8 sec cd increase to the soul merged swoop.

Will it take some adjusting to it? Sure, but you'll adjust to it. Much like a lot of other changes that will happen when this patch hits...it needed to happen.

Aye mate, "you'll adjust to it" you can say that about every change they're proposing, doesn't automatically make them good ideas.You can't strip away a classes defenses, not replace them with anything else and then say "hey, atleast when people hit you, they wont hit you that hard!"Either way, i've made my point here, i'm out.

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@Ragnar.4257 said:

@"Hot Boy.7138" said:I'm okay with all the mesmer nerfs, however the change to mirage cloak is gonna take all the fun out of the class for me. I don't enjoy base mes or chronomancer anymore. Cloak was really cool and so much fun. Too strong I guess. But I wish they thought of another solution to keep it interesting and just as fun/cool.

People are massively over-estimating the impact of this change.

Baseline endurance recovers 5 per second. That means with no sigils, runes, vigor, food, traits, etc etc you recover 1 dodge every 10 seconds.

Over a 100 second engagement:

Pre-patch: Mirage can dodge 12 times (2 initial + 10 recovered)Post-patch: Mirage can dodge 11 times (1 initial + 10 recovered)

Again, that's not considering any other sources than base endurance recovery. When you factor in other sources of endurance recovery and mirage-mirror generation, the difference becomes even smaller.

It's not a nerf to endurance recovery. It just means you have 1 less "pre-loaded" up-front. It is
not
a "50% nerf".

Sure, it's a nerf, but it's not as big a nerf as you might think at first glance, and everything is getting nerfed anyway.

@"phokus.8934" said:Mirage needs to have their endurance regen added back and the ambushes need to be greatly buffed if they only get one dodge.

This still feels like a cheap way of balancing Mirage when they should've just looked at the ambushes with IH.

Endurance regen wasn't taken away at all?? You do understand the difference between "endurance" and "endurance regen" right? They even removed the Exhaustion from Elusive Mind!

In one case, you have the ability to time 2 dodge to evade 2 key skills.In other case you have the ability to time 1 dodge to evade 1 key skills.You example is just meh as I never see people in PvP dodge when it's up, they conserve it for key moment and that's basically what distinguish good player from bad.This change will basically mean that mirage couldn't fight more than 10 sec on point and I doubt than the +1 ability will be worth it considering some pressure came from ambush...And you will lose many over endurance as you will conserve your unique dodge for the right moment where other people can just burn one if they have more than half bar.

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@viquing.8254 said:

@"Hot Boy.7138" said:I'm okay with all the mesmer nerfs, however the change to mirage cloak is gonna take all the fun out of the class for me. I don't enjoy base mes or chronomancer anymore. Cloak was really cool and so much fun. Too strong I guess. But I wish they thought of another solution to keep it interesting and just as fun/cool.

People are massively over-estimating the impact of this change.

Baseline endurance recovers 5 per second. That means with no sigils, runes, vigor, food, traits, etc etc you recover 1 dodge every 10 seconds.

Over a 100 second engagement:

Pre-patch: Mirage can dodge 12 times (2 initial + 10 recovered)Post-patch: Mirage can dodge 11 times (1 initial + 10 recovered)

Again, that's not considering any other sources than base endurance recovery. When you factor in other sources of endurance recovery and mirage-mirror generation, the difference becomes even smaller.

It's not a nerf to endurance recovery. It just means you have 1 less "pre-loaded" up-front. It is
not
a "50% nerf".

Sure, it's a nerf, but it's not as big a nerf as you might think at first glance, and everything is getting nerfed anyway.

@"phokus.8934" said:Mirage needs to have their endurance regen added back and the ambushes need to be greatly buffed if they only get one dodge.

This still feels like a cheap way of balancing Mirage when they should've just looked at the ambushes with IH.

Endurance regen wasn't taken away at all?? You do understand the difference between "endurance" and "endurance regen" right? They even removed the Exhaustion from Elusive Mind!

In one case, you have the ability to time 2 dodge to evade 2 key skills.In other case you have the ability to time 1 dodge to evade 1 key skills.You example is just meh as I never see people in PvP dodge when it's up, they conserve it for key moment and that's basically what distinguish good player from bad.This change will basically mean that mirage couldn't fight more than 10 sec on point and I doubt than the +1 ability will be worth it considering some pressure came from ambush...And you will lose many over endurance as you will conserve your unique dodge for the right moment where other people can just burn one if they have more than half bar.

I'm not saying it isn't a nerf.

It is definitely a nerf.

But it isn't the apocalyptic end-of-the-universe nerf that some people are reacting like it as.

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You divide the class mechanics into three different parts (www pve pvp), this is wrong, the class should feel the same in all modes, and not so that in pvp 1 clone in Mesmer, and in pve 2 clone, either do the same in all modes or do not change the class mechanics , the player is difficult to adapt to a completely different behavior of the native class in another game mode and they just stop playing different game modes,I think a lot of people will agree with me.

Arenanet you force to play power builds depriving people of choice, reducing the number of game options, completely destroying the condi builds. Look at the experience of Ncsoft, which broke the balance in lineage 2 made 8 classes instead of 30 +, then the developer regretted it very much, starting to introduce again ridiculous skills so that the classes began to differ, but nothing could be fixed. People simply ran away from such changes, you are now going the same way.

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@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@"Foshizle.9802" said:I don't understand Shadow Arts nerf. It's currently a meta trait on more than 1 build, none of which really uses "Shadow's Rejuvenation" let alone "Merciful ambush".Given the overall nerfs and thief play style remaining the same, SA will be be even better in perspective than it currently is.

Overall stealth was barely touched, heartseeker ignored (it will hit pretty hard after these nerfs), shadow shot went from 4 to 5 innitiative,... thief meta strength received a very gentle slap compared to other specs.

But overall well done, this was needed.

This. If you're going to hit everyone hit thieves in sa harder. The last thing we need is this getting soured by permastealth.

Im usually not one for proposing thief hits because squishy, but by extension all thieves just got less squishy. They can take more shaving to SA in particular. Leeching venoms and siphoning can probably be dialed back.

Also people who wanted exorbitant nerfs getting them but also getting their cheese nerfed
WHEEZE

Siphoning? Like, Shadow Siphoning? The trait so irrelevant its a minor so that people cant skip it? Of all the things to nerf, Im surprised youd nerf the one thing that desperately needed buffs pre-patch.

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@Ziggityzog.7389 said:Ooooh yeah I cant wait for the tears of the kitten birds being class carried by mesmer dodge all and condi trash, teef trash like infinite dodge and spam, or block everything heal everything burn everything guards.

Things are about to be much much better off in this game.

Don't worry, if you are convinced that currently mirage has a 100% dodge uptime, you will still get destroyed after patch. This patch will change nothing for you.

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But it isn't the apocalyptic end-of-the-universe nerf that some people are reacting like it as.

it is! the only trade-off idea that comes close in how bad it is, is chrono. nerfing mirage mechanic and give it trade-off? fine for me but not by killing all the acitve and tactical gameplay parts by overkilling the underlying base resource the spec needs to even function. just make a 2 clone cap instead for example. that nerfs the dmg spam from dmg clones without making skillful combos with ih/ambushes on power mirage impossible.

@viquing.8254 said:

@zoopop.5630 said:hahahaha came here to see all the ranger/mesmer main share some salt :+1:

Don't worry, you will just want to leave the game when they reroll to your main class and kill you in few second. B)

hihihihihi

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Ok, I've had some time to digest the engineer changes, so I'm going to post a few general observations I have:

  • Core engineer, by comparison with other classes, got a buff (with a caveat). Most of the kits were unaffected by the nerfs, meaning that their relative power is much higher than it was before. The problem is that while their damage is now relatively higher, these skills are still mechanically weak compared to elite specs (which often have multiple functions per skill).
  • Scrapper is going to be genuinely worse than it was before. The damage nerfs also mean a sustain nerf in barrier generation. In addition, the cooldown increase on Rocket Leap and reduction in superspeed all around will mean scrapper will have a very difficult time keeping up with enemies, one of its biggest problems to date. See this thread for more details.
  • Holo is more vulnerable to getting ping-ponged now. The stability on corona burst was critical to its ability to remain in melee range. Engineer has a stunbreak/stability problem (as in, most stunbreaks don't prevent an immediate follow-up CC), and this nerf is going to make it all the more apparent.
  • Certain CC's that NEVER saw use (Rocket Turret Overcharge, Big Ol' Bomb, Supply Crate) all face the universal damage nerf to 0.01, making them even less desireable than they were before. These skills are just abhorrent now. Almost all turret skills need serious revisiting, this patch will make them all horrendous.
  • Condi damage on engineer is being drastically nerfed (even core engineer), but I don't see reductions in overall cleansing capabilities for other classes, or engineer. What tiny amount of condi engineer exists got essentially erased. The pistol damage coefficient nerf just made me laugh as the icing on the cake.
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@"Jazz.4639" said:

@"viquing.8254" said:

But it isn't the apocalyptic end-of-the-universe nerf that some people are reacting like it as.

it is! the only trade-off idea that comes close in its unlogically "nonsenseness" by contradicting the whole base mechanic of the spec is chrono. nerfing mirage mechanic and give it trade-off? fine for me but not by killing all the acitve and tactical gameplay parts by overkilling the underlying base resource the spec needs to even function. just make a 2 clone cap instead for example. that nerfs the dmg spam from dmg clones without making skillful combos with ih/ambushes on power mirage impossible.

In my opinion, it'd have made more sense to give Mirage regular dodges and having Mirage cloak + it's evade only applied via those purple mirrors or skills that grant it.But the first part of Desert Distortion would be better as a minor trait with such a change.

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@Vagrant.7206 said:

  • Scrapper is going to be genuinely worse than it was before. The damage nerfs also mean a sustain nerf in barrier generation.

but damage nerfs also mean you don't need as much barrier to block a hit. so it's a null change

Certain CC's that NEVER saw use (Rocket Turret Overcharge, Big Ol' Bomb, Supply Crate) all face the universal damage nerf to 0.01, making them even less desireable than they were before. These skills are just abhorrent now.agree on bomb and turret, but supply crate was never about the damage. it's actually getting buffed. the CC is bigger and the cooldown is shorter. It looks like a better skill than before to me

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Not gonna nitpick any particulars, just repeat what I already said in the WvW thread: I'm loving the direction this takes.

One of my main gripes with competitive game modes is that when you don't have the time to train very hard and just play the game occasionally as a hobby, the difference in skill means that a good player can kill you in 5 seconds or less, and you have no time window during that in which you can in any way observe what they're doing and learn from the mistakes in your reaction. You just panic and spam your dodge, heal, condi clear and stun break moves. A general increase in the TTK, a clearer separation of CC and damage skills, and less reliance on passive skills are all good ways to treat that problem.

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@Fueki.4753 said:

@"Jazz.4639" said:

@"viquing.8254" said:

But it isn't the apocalyptic end-of-the-universe nerf that some people are reacting like it as.

it is! the only trade-off idea that comes close in its unlogically "nonsenseness" by contradicting the whole base mechanic of the spec is chrono. nerfing mirage mechanic and give it trade-off? fine for me but not by killing all the acitve and tactical gameplay parts by overkilling the underlying base resource the spec needs to even function. just make a 2 clone cap instead for example. that nerfs the dmg spam from dmg clones without making skillful combos with ih/ambushes on power mirage impossible.

In my opinion, it'd have made more sense to give Mirage regular dodges and having Mirage cloak + it's evade only applied via those purple mirrors or skills that grant it.But the first part of Desert Distortion would be better as a minor trait with such a change.

indeed, since mirrors are not good enough to replace normal dodges this would have been another idea for mirage redesign right from start. this way mirage would have still some sort of instant dodges (that is lit all mirage is about, having an instant dodge, you cannot take this away totally) by mirrors while having normal endurance dodges like everyone else. but i doubt that at this point anet can or will do such a change. you would need to totally rework how clones ambushes and ih function (at least you need to make them function on normal dodges then too) because if they do not give reward for each dodge they are way too weak as dodge trait and as spec mechanic compared to other dodge traits and other classes mechanics in the game. also it would be a spec redesign and not a trade-off and this redesign maybe would make another trade-off even unnecessary but other classes still would cry about mirage doesnt get anything called trade-off, no matter if it would make sense or not anymore. anet started with that, uuuhmm lets say unlucky, trade-off idea and can most likely not step back from it. so we have to deal with that mess and try to at least suggest trade-offs that are not unlogical and not contradicting to and for that destroying the base nature of the spec. nerfs are fine, destruction is not, esp when it destroys skillful gameplay more than nerfing the lame stuff.

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@reikken.4961 said:

  • Scrapper
    is going to be genuinely worse than it was before. The damage nerfs also mean a sustain nerf in barrier generation.

but damage nerfs also mean you don't need as much barrier to block a hit. so it's a null change

Not exactly. Impact Savant, the trait that permanently lower scrapper's HP, hasn't been altered. So scrapper still has the lower health pool, but even less to show for it.

Certain CC's that NEVER saw use (Rocket Turret Overcharge, Big Ol' Bomb, Supply Crate) all face the universal damage nerf to 0.01, making them even less desireable than they were before. These skills are just abhorrent now.agree on bomb and turret, but supply crate was never about the damage. it's actually getting buffed. the CC is bigger and the cooldown is shorter. It looks like a
better
skill than before to me

Except 90s is still worse than almost all other CC's available to engineer elites. Don't forget to compare to Elixir X and Prime Light Beam. Those two skills alone possess much better CC than Supply Crate on lower cooldowns.

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@Vagrant.7206 said:

  • Scrapper
    is going to be genuinely worse than it was before. The damage nerfs also mean a sustain nerf in barrier generation.

but damage nerfs also mean you don't need as much barrier to block a hit. so it's a null change

Not exactly. Impact Savant, the trait that permanently lower scrapper's HP, hasn't been altered. So scrapper still has the lower health pool, but even less to show for it.

Certain CC's that NEVER saw use (Rocket Turret Overcharge, Big Ol' Bomb, Supply Crate) all face the universal damage nerf to 0.01, making them even less desireable than they were before. These skills are just abhorrent now.agree on bomb and turret, but supply crate was never about the damage. it's actually getting buffed. the CC is bigger and the cooldown is shorter. It looks like a
better
skill than before to me

Except 90s is still worse than almost all other CC's available to engineer elites. Don't forget to compare to Elixir X and Prime Light Beam. Those two skills alone possess much better CC than Supply Crate on lower cooldowns.

I don't see how the health pool has anything to do with the fact that the decrease in sustain is proportional to the decrease in damage received.Lower across the board damage is actually better for characters with a smaller health pool, since it makes them less vulnerable to getting burst down from full. but that's still pretty irrelevant to this point.

And I'm not arguing that the other elites aren't still better. I'm saying that new supply crate is better than old supply crate.

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@"Jazz.4639" said:

@"Jazz.4639" said:

@"viquing.8254" said:

But it isn't the apocalyptic end-of-the-universe nerf that some people are reacting like it as.

it is! the only trade-off idea that comes close in its unlogically "nonsenseness" by contradicting the whole base mechanic of the spec is chrono. nerfing mirage mechanic and give it trade-off? fine for me but not by killing all the acitve and tactical gameplay parts by overkilling the underlying base resource the spec needs to even function. just make a 2 clone cap instead for example. that nerfs the dmg spam from dmg clones without making skillful combos with ih/ambushes on power mirage impossible.

In my opinion, it'd have made more sense to give Mirage regular dodges and having Mirage cloak + it's evade only applied via those purple mirrors or skills that grant it.But the first part of Desert Distortion would be better as a minor trait with such a change.

indeed, since mirrors are not good enough to replace normal dodges this would have been another idea for mirage redesign right from start. this way mirage would have still some sort of instant dodges (that is lit all mirage is about, having an instant dodge, you cannot take this away totally) by mirrors while having normal endurance dodges like everyone else. but i doubt that at this point anet can or will do such a change. you would need to totally rework how clones ambushes and ih function (at least you need to make them function on normal dodges then too) because if they do not give reward for each dodge they are way too weak as dodge trait and as spec mechanic compared to other dodge traits and other classes mechanics in the game. also it would be a spec redesign and not a trade-off and this redesign maybe would make another trade-off even unnecessary but other classes still would cry about mirage doesnt get anything called trade-off, no matter if it would make sense or not anymore. anet started with that, uuuhmm lets say unlucky, trade-off idea and can most likely not step back from it. so we have to deal with that mess and try to at least suggest trade-offs that are not unlogical and not contradicting to and for that destroying the base nature of the spec. nerfs are fine, destruction is not, esp when it destroys skillful gameplay more than nerfing the lame stuff.

I don't think Clones should have Evades at all.I don't think they should have direct damage or conditions either.They should just be there for visual clutter, confusing enemies and shatters.Infinite Horizon could be replaced by one of the minor traits and the first part of Desert Distortion takes that minor's place.

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