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@Ghos.1326 said:

@NecroSummonsMors.7816 said:Dmg reduction is fine and corruption too(if and only if we see a real decline of boon spam, otherwise you'll see even more boonspam without anything keeping it in check).Now here are the things I really do not understand:
  • Executioners Scythe: why remove the dmg component when it's clear it was meanth as killer hit since even its dmg scales with the percentage of enemy's health. In my opinion you should remove the cc and keep the dmg, not do the opposite.
  • Spectral walk and armor didn't deserve a nerf since you already removed a key component for core necro survivability (foot in the grave). You now force any necromancer to basically run with always 2 or 3 breakstuns, not to talk about the fact that the breakstun on entering shroud, actually grants the ability to instantly react to a cc lock down.
  • Doom: the usefull part of this ability was the fact it was instant, most of all a lot of people complain about the fear duration not the fact it was instant. Infact doom being instant is crucial to actually try to stop a burst while in core shroud.
  • Infusing Terror: really you nerf stability on reaper shroud which needs it to stay in melee without being cc locked? Reduce it to 2 stacks instead of 3 but keep the duration. Because stab on reaper shroud is crucial, to be able to cast something that it is not autoattack since every skill has a 1.25s cast time or more. You expect a melee shroud mode with long cast times to actually be usefull without the ability to cast its slow abilities without any protection vs CCs?

You can't nerf dmg and corruption on necro and at the same time increase its weakness to CC too, in my opinion is too much. You say you want less stab on necro and that's fine but even going hammer on breakstuns? Like 15s increase on trail of anguish? Is any necro spec supposed to have 1 breakstun each 40s, when every other class in game can spam all the cc they have, which btw are more than just 1 or 2, and keep doing damage with every other skill in the kit while they cc lock a necro?

With the damage lower across the board, though, and the cc doing low damage, you don't need to worry about breaking stun as much, so you may not need to continue to run stunbreaks. Just wait it out and see.

What you are suggesting is the most uninterractive way of playing one could ever imagine. Losing control over your character without the possibility of doing anything is the worst possible experience you can give.

I don't find having 15 million stab, on top of 2 health bars, and a high natural health pool, making you tanky by default "interactive" and "fun". Especially after these damage nerfs. You want the best of all worlds. Too bad.

They only thing that will be tanky is core necro which will have 0 access to stability(except lich form, which nobody takes ever as elite). Reaper needs the stability to even be able to cast something, considering its long cast times. And if you compare reaper's stability access and duration to other classes it actually pales in comparison to them.And yes I consider getting your character cc locked while you can't do anything about it uninterractive and not fun, you should try it and see how an awfull experience it is, especially while the entire enemy team gets on you, because you are a sitting duck, and you can't even try to escape it.

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@Chaith.8256 said:

@bravan.3876 said:Yes and as i described the rebalance that happend was overall still a power creep also for Engi.

It was not. We can agree to disagree but I'm not sure why, you've said multiple times you don't know about the effect that Core Specs did to Engi in 2015. Core specs brought the performance of Engineer down relative to other classes. Adding an F5 skill off-set the sizable PvP nerfs by a bit to where it was middle of the pack, in an overall pretty balanced meta. You'll have to just trust me on this one, I was a full-time competitive Engi main, it was literally my job from Dec 2014-August 2016 to know.

How got Engi then power creeped from back then to now outside of elite specs? When you say everything that happend pre HoT in clear preparation of HoT didn't power creep Engi at all and was fully compensated by nerfs on other places back then? I can't remember any remarkable buffs to core traitlines from Engi since HoT release what might be rooted in me not rly looking at Engi balance history.

I rly like to believe you and i know you are a knowledgable and good player (and it is actually my bad to not get into the archive and do the complete research myslf, no doubt) but just one post before you tried to sell me the kit lockout from Holomode as trade off, how can i be sure you didn't mistake other pre HoT buffs as nerf?

Anyway all i wanted to say is, that i don't even understand the need to add a second or even triple trade off to specs like Holo or Soulbeast. I also don't understand why in opposite specs which didn't get additional skills from elite (like Necro) don't need another trade off even though the new replacing skills are clearly an upgrade from the core skills (and pls don't say Scourge lost shroud, that was compensated with barrier mechanic, it is just a mechanic switch not a downgrade). I just find the whole trade off wave confusing and in comparision between elite specs unfair (Mesmer specs, Soulbeast) and bad (Daredevil) implemented.

As you say yourself, a lot of elite specs that got stuff on top of core (either more skills/cds or a stronger mechanic) had at least one or even more inherent trade offs implemented right from the start. Trade offs that make sense and higher the skillneed to play the spec (also compared to core, higher skill ceiling is an additional trade off already). If some of the builds using elite lines are still op then in my view it is more then enough to make adjustments to dmg and other rewards of skills/traits (like condi clone ambush skills and normal autoattacks from clones on Mesmer which need nerfs) and/ or higher cds from stuff that causes the problems (without slowing down the playstyle too hard). Means just doing normal nerfs to builds instead giving additional trade offs taking away parts of the elite mechanic itself.

Trade offs, like the Soulbeast one, which delete active gameplay mechanics in additon to the already existing inherent trade offs are self-defeating, they make specs more clunky and less skilled. In case of Mesmer even completely unplayable. That is rly all i am saying. Holo has one trade off (Head) and it is enough. If the Holospec is still overperforming then you can adjust by stat penalty higher cds and lower dmg and such kitten, there is no need to kill the Holomechanic with another not needed trade off (like giving Holomode only 3 skills aside from autoattack instead of 4, means simply deleting skills and mechanics you are already used to, would you like that? Feels bad when you also could just higher the cds or nerf the dmg of Holoskills a little bit to make them balanced). But that is what happened to other specs.

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@Chaith.8256 said:

@bravan.3876 said:As said i don't think Scrapper needs more trade off than vita penalty
maybe some dmg reduction on hammer skills or whatever (outside of the coming big patch)

@bravan.3876 said:Ofc i would not nerf hammer skills further outside of the big patch.

You just contradict yourself

@bravan.3876 said:I t was just an example on how to balance Scrapper when NEEDED

You kind of backpeddle and are all over the place but yeah I can see now you don't actually believe holo trade offs are the lightest, or Scrapper needs more hammer nerfs. We agree

How is it a backpeddle when i just correct your missunderstanding? I just mean in case Scrapper would be op, you would not add another trade off on top of what Scrapper already has (-200 vita), you would just nerf skills or trades which are too strong, you would not delete one or two Hammerskills and make it a 3 skill weapon as a trade off.The part with "outside of the big balance patch" was just to make sure you understand that i mean nerfs/trade offs to Scrapper which are directed at the elite and not just normal nerfs we now get with the patch anyway.

Again, pls stop tunnelvisioning. I feel like you read more inbetween lines trying to find something that is not there and being feared to find a hidden nerf request from me to your main class. That is not my point. I just talk about the trade off kitten and that other classes got unfairly harder trade offed than other classes. During i don't want the less harder trade offed classes to get more trade offed, i want that the harder tradeoffed class to get a fair and balance trade off too.Holo got what it deserved right from start of PoF, it doesn't need a second trade off. It rly doesn't (the only thing could be considered after patch and in case Holo even cause any problems as spec would be to higher the head penalty a LITTLE BIT IF NEEDED, that is the only thing directly addressed at the elite mechanic that could be adjusted IF NEEDED. But never ever add another trade off to Holo, only normal nerfs IF NEEDED.

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@NecroSummonsMors.7816 said:

@NecroSummonsMors.7816 said:Dmg reduction is fine and corruption too(if and only if we see a real decline of boon spam, otherwise you'll see even more boonspam without anything keeping it in check).Now here are the things I really do not understand:
  • Executioners Scythe: why remove the dmg component when it's clear it was meanth as killer hit since even its dmg scales with the percentage of enemy's health. In my opinion you should remove the cc and keep the dmg, not do the opposite.
  • Spectral walk and armor didn't deserve a nerf since you already removed a key component for core necro survivability (foot in the grave). You now force any necromancer to basically run with always 2 or 3 breakstuns, not to talk about the fact that the breakstun on entering shroud, actually grants the ability to instantly react to a cc lock down.
  • Doom: the usefull part of this ability was the fact it was instant, most of all a lot of people complain about the fear duration not the fact it was instant. Infact doom being instant is crucial to actually try to stop a burst while in core shroud.
  • Infusing Terror: really you nerf stability on reaper shroud which needs it to stay in melee without being cc locked? Reduce it to 2 stacks instead of 3 but keep the duration. Because stab on reaper shroud is crucial, to be able to cast something that it is not autoattack since every skill has a 1.25s cast time or more. You expect a melee shroud mode with long cast times to actually be usefull without the ability to cast its slow abilities without any protection vs CCs?

You can't nerf dmg and corruption on necro and at the same time increase its weakness to CC too, in my opinion is too much. You say you want less stab on necro and that's fine but even going hammer on breakstuns? Like 15s increase on trail of anguish? Is any necro spec supposed to have 1 breakstun each 40s, when every other class in game can spam all the cc they have, which btw are more than just 1 or 2, and keep doing damage with every other skill in the kit while they cc lock a necro?

With the damage lower across the board, though, and the cc doing low damage, you don't need to worry about breaking stun as much, so you may not need to continue to run stunbreaks. Just wait it out and see.

What you are suggesting is the most uninterractive way of playing one could ever imagine. Losing control over your character without the possibility of doing anything is the worst possible experience you can give.

I don't find having 15 million stab, on top of 2 health bars, and a high natural health pool, making you tanky by default "interactive" and "fun". Especially after these damage nerfs. You want the best of all worlds. Too bad.

They only thing that will be tanky is core necro which will have 0 access to stability(except lich form, which nobody takes ever as elite). Reaper needs the stability to even be able to cast something, considering its long cast times. And if you compare reaper's stability access and duration to other classes it actually pales in comparison to them.And yes I consider getting your character cc locked while you can't do anything about it uninterractive and not fun, you should try it and see how an awfull experience it is, especially while the entire enemy team gets on you, because you are a sitting duck, and you can't even try to escape it.

Core necro is going to require more support to be effective going forward if 2 people jump on it and no one peels for it then its going to die. Which is likely going to happen alot unless you have a firebrand or tempest sitting on your rump the whole time or your teams damage and focus is good enough to kill more of the enemy team in the time it might take a few of them to kill the necromancer.

Generally speaking its never fun being the first one to be focused but the way i see it is necro will always be that way until untill they give it something that allows it to slip out of a situation thats not "wurm" like the other professions have or untill they take more away from the other professions making them higher potential targets to go for. Necro is generally easy to go for because people know its generally not going to be able to disengage a fight once it goes in. Either it kills you with the team or it dies its rare that you get a chance to escape as necro where people wont chase you down

Keep in mind though

  • Life force gains are not changing as of yet
  • CC skills wont be doing much damage so if the majority of the things that hit you are cc only in quick succession it wont be a ton of damage if any damage at all.
  • Overall damage is going to be lower meaning shroud can do what it was meant to do which is soak damage for sustain right now it fails at doing that because damage is too high shroud melts and you get blown up.
  • We are finally getting out of the kill quick or be killed meta. This meta does not work well for the design of necromancer having no hard defense so this is a good thing.

If you are focused and cc locked its not the end of the world. ITs not going to be fun but if the whole team focuses you and cant kill you in a reasonable time and your team can destory them because they are so dead set on focusing you then do what you can trading one death for 2-3 deaths on the enemy team is actually a better outcome a match overall which would mean you played your role effectively.

Short term/ in the moment and or perhaps roaming in wvw though yes it might feel pretty crappy. :C

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@NecroSummonsMors.7816 said:

@NecroSummonsMors.7816 said:Dmg reduction is fine and corruption too(if and only if we see a real decline of boon spam, otherwise you'll see even more boonspam without anything keeping it in check).Now here are the things I really do not understand:
  • Executioners Scythe: why remove the dmg component when it's clear it was meanth as killer hit since even its dmg scales with the percentage of enemy's health. In my opinion you should remove the cc and keep the dmg, not do the opposite.
  • Spectral walk and armor didn't deserve a nerf since you already removed a key component for core necro survivability (foot in the grave). You now force any necromancer to basically run with always 2 or 3 breakstuns, not to talk about the fact that the breakstun on entering shroud, actually grants the ability to instantly react to a cc lock down.
  • Doom: the usefull part of this ability was the fact it was instant, most of all a lot of people complain about the fear duration not the fact it was instant. Infact doom being instant is crucial to actually try to stop a burst while in core shroud.
  • Infusing Terror: really you nerf stability on reaper shroud which needs it to stay in melee without being cc locked? Reduce it to 2 stacks instead of 3 but keep the duration. Because stab on reaper shroud is crucial, to be able to cast something that it is not autoattack since every skill has a 1.25s cast time or more. You expect a melee shroud mode with long cast times to actually be usefull without the ability to cast its slow abilities without any protection vs CCs?

You can't nerf dmg and corruption on necro and at the same time increase its weakness to CC too, in my opinion is too much. You say you want less stab on necro and that's fine but even going hammer on breakstuns? Like 15s increase on trail of anguish? Is any necro spec supposed to have 1 breakstun each 40s, when every other class in game can spam all the cc they have, which btw are more than just 1 or 2, and keep doing damage with every other skill in the kit while they cc lock a necro?

With the damage lower across the board, though, and the cc doing low damage, you don't need to worry about breaking stun as much, so you may not need to continue to run stunbreaks. Just wait it out and see.

What you are suggesting is the most uninterractive way of playing one could ever imagine. Losing control over your character without the possibility of doing anything is the worst possible experience you can give.

I don't find having 15 million stab, on top of 2 health bars, and a high natural health pool, making you tanky by default "interactive" and "fun". Especially after these damage nerfs. You want the best of all worlds. Too bad.

They only thing that will be tanky is core necro which will have 0 access to stability(except lich form, which nobody takes ever as elite). Reaper needs the stability to even be able to cast something, considering its long cast times. And if you compare reaper's stability access and duration to other classes it actually pales in comparison to them.And yes I consider getting your character cc locked while you can't do anything about it uninterractive and not fun, you should try it and see how an awfull experience it is, especially while the entire enemy team gets on you, because you are a sitting duck, and you can't even try to escape it.

Well of power also grants a second of stability, so your claim that core necro will have 0 is already false.While traited to Reaper, your shroud skill 3 grants a few stacks of stab. There's another source.As well, while in Reaper, Chilled to the Bone grants 2? stacks of stability.While traited with Scourge, you get Stability from Trail of Anguish.Lets also mention one of your minions, though not sure if that minion gets the stab, or if the necro itself gets the stab, when you use the command skill for it.There's also Feed From Corruption in Scourge, that allows you to gain the boon you corrupted on the enemy.

Now here's a word from our sponsors, ArenaNet:Necromancer has always been designed to be a resilient profession that was light on Stability. Since this update specifically is removing some stability from their traits we made sure to buff their stunbreak skills appropriately in response. Additionally we've fixed a few issues with minion responsiveness and buffed a few of the weaker minion command skills.Lets zoom in on that part. LIGHT on stability.LIGHT.

Any other questions?

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@ZDragon.3046 said:

@NecroSummonsMors.7816 said:Dmg reduction is fine and corruption too(if and only if we see a real decline of boon spam, otherwise you'll see even more boonspam without anything keeping it in check).Now here are the things I really do not understand:
  • Executioners Scythe: why remove the dmg component when it's clear it was meanth as killer hit since even its dmg scales with the percentage of enemy's health. In my opinion you should remove the cc and keep the dmg, not do the opposite.
  • Spectral walk and armor didn't deserve a nerf since you already removed a key component for core necro survivability (foot in the grave). You now force any necromancer to basically run with always 2 or 3 breakstuns, not to talk about the fact that the breakstun on entering shroud, actually grants the ability to instantly react to a cc lock down.
  • Doom: the usefull part of this ability was the fact it was instant, most of all a lot of people complain about the fear duration not the fact it was instant. Infact doom being instant is crucial to actually try to stop a burst while in core shroud.
  • Infusing Terror: really you nerf stability on reaper shroud which needs it to stay in melee without being cc locked? Reduce it to 2 stacks instead of 3 but keep the duration. Because stab on reaper shroud is crucial, to be able to cast something that it is not autoattack since every skill has a 1.25s cast time or more. You expect a melee shroud mode with long cast times to actually be usefull without the ability to cast its slow abilities without any protection vs CCs?

You can't nerf dmg and corruption on necro and at the same time increase its weakness to CC too, in my opinion is too much. You say you want less stab on necro and that's fine but even going hammer on breakstuns? Like 15s increase on trail of anguish? Is any necro spec supposed to have 1 breakstun each 40s, when every other class in game can spam all the cc they have, which btw are more than just 1 or 2, and keep doing damage with every other skill in the kit while they cc lock a necro?

With the damage lower across the board, though, and the cc doing low damage, you don't need to worry about breaking stun as much, so you may not need to continue to run stunbreaks. Just wait it out and see.

What you are suggesting is the most uninterractive way of playing one could ever imagine. Losing control over your character without the possibility of doing anything is the worst possible experience you can give.

I don't find having 15 million stab, on top of 2 health bars, and a high natural health pool, making you tanky by default "interactive" and "fun". Especially after these damage nerfs. You want the best of all worlds. Too bad.

They only thing that will be tanky is core necro which will have 0 access to stability(except lich form, which nobody takes ever as elite). Reaper needs the stability to even be able to cast something, considering its long cast times. And if you compare reaper's stability access and duration to other classes it actually pales in comparison to them.And yes I consider getting your character cc locked while you can't do anything about it uninterractive and not fun, you should try it and see how an awfull experience it is, especially while the entire enemy team gets on you, because you are a sitting duck, and you can't even try to escape it.

Core necro is going to require more support to be effective going forward if 2 people jump on it and no one peels for it then its going to die. Which is likely going to happen alot unless you have a firebrand or tempest sitting on your rump the whole time or your teams damage and focus is good enough to kill more of the enemy team in the time it might take a few of them to kill the necromancer.

Generally speaking its never fun being the first one to be focused but the way i see it is necro will always be that way until untill they give it something that allows it to slip out of a situation thats not "wurm" like the other professions have or untill they take more away from the other professions making them higher potential targets to go for. Necro is generally easy to go for because people know its generally not going to be able to disengage a fight once it goes in. Either it kills you with the team or it dies its rare that you get a chance to escape as necro where people wont chase you down

Keep in mind though
  • Life force gains are not changing as of yet
  • CC skills wont be doing much damage so if the majority of the things that hit you are cc only in quick succession it wont be a ton of damage if any damage at all.
  • Overall damage is going to be lower meaning shroud can do what it was meant to do which is soak damage for sustain right now it fails at doing that because damage is too high shroud melts and you get blown up.
  • We are finally getting out of the kill quick or be killed meta. This meta does not work well for the design of necromancer having no hard defense so this is a good thing.

If you are focused and cc locked its not the end of the world. ITs not going to be fun but if the whole team focuses you and cant kill you in a reasonable time and your team can destory them because they are so dead set on focusing you then do what you can trading one death for 2-3 deaths on the enemy team is actually a better outcome a match overall which would mean you played your role effectively.

Short term/ in the moment and or perhaps roaming in wvw though yes it might feel pretty crappy. :C

Every thing you say, I already know since I play necro, and yes roaming on necro will now be even worse. Still the need to be baby sit because Anet doesn't/can't understand how to improve necro, while keeping it in check, leaves me baffled. This patch will nerf necromancer in every aspect dmg, corruption, breakstuns and stability, and the last 2 were not deserved at all in my opinion.

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@"Ghos.1326" said:Well of power also grants a second of stability, so your claim that core necro will have 0 is already false.While traited to Reaper, your shroud skill 3 grants a few stacks of stab. There's another source.As well, while in Reaper, Chilled to the Bone grants 2? stacks of stability.While traited with Scourge, you get Stability from Trail of Anguish.Lets also mention one of your minions, though not sure if that minion gets the stab, or if the necro itself gets the stab, when you use the command skill for it.There's also Feed From Corruption in Scourge, that allows you to gain the boon you corrupted on the enemy.

Now here's a word from our sponsors, ArenaNet:Necromancer has always been designed to be a resilient profession that was light on Stability. Since this update specifically is removing some stability from their traits we made sure to buff their stunbreak skills appropriately in response. Additionally we've fixed a few issues with minion responsiveness and buffed a few of the weaker minion command skills.Lets zoom in on that part. LIGHT on stability.LIGHT.

Any other questions?

The 1 second of stability is there to actually grant the possibility of casting the skill which is a breakstun, otherwise you wouldn't even have the chance of casting it.Chilled to the Bone grants stab only if you actually hit something. And I actually have no problem with a nerf to it since it's a pretty impactfull skill.Trail of Anguish got an increased 15s cd. Really 50s cd for a breakstun and 1 stack of stab for 6s, man such an op skill...The golem activation skill doesn't grant stability to the necromancer.Feed From Corruption until now has seen no use at all, that might change in the future, but I still highly doubt that.The statment of Anet on necro being light on stability has been through for years and it's not new, what is annoying is this: you wanna nerf stability fine, but then don't claim to buff the breakstuns when in reality they nerfed all of them(the most used) except well of power, wurm and "you are all weaklings". Because that's just saying 1 thing than doing another. The point of the patch should have been nerf dmg and corruptions, while freeing the necromancer from the constant need of support to even be able to survive.You clearly do not play necromancer, your lack of knowledge of skills you mentioned proves it. That's why you obviously do not understand my point of view on how necro will become even more weak to cc lock, like it wasn't weak already to that.

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Hello,

Thanks you ArenaNet for all this work about this patch and this new approach to the game balance. A lot of people, including me, is heavily waiting for such a patch, and you can expect us to play your game a lot when this patch will be available.

Even thought most damages/sustain abilities have been decreased by ~33%, there are still some abilities/traits untouched, which can be then considered as those traits get a huge buff. But I am confident that over time, the game will find a great balance.

I have read most of the patch note, and, from my experience I could provide some stuff that could be too strong if this exact patch note is released :

  • I haven't seen elsewhere anything about the retaliation buff, which currently, if my memories are good, reflect 300 damages per hit with a high amount of power, which could become pretty huge (especially against some builds). Hopefully, it seems that the uptime of buffs have been decreased. But I still fear that some builds can keep this buff always up and then have a great advantage (especially guardians and engineers).

  • The Base Necromancer and reaper could be MUCH tanker than ever, because their life force recovering seems to not have been modified. It is even highly probable that a bunker meta arround Necromancers happens. I have currently a build that run a 37K HP tank necro with 30K life force, (33K life if going with alteration damage, but the life force recovering is lower) and, with the signet of no-life and signet of vampirish (buffed with a specific trait), you have a tremendous sustain (even in death shroud). Keep an eye on how fast a necromancer can recover his life force... Especially when you adds a new trait that replace "foot in the grave" that fills really great to improve the sustain of the build (but losing a lot of damages, but it's ok, because the "life blast" of the death shroud have been decreased by around 15% instead of 33%).

  • In the same idea, there are also a tank thief build based around high sustain and dodges, which will be nerfed by the "death blossom" cost increased from 4 to 5 and the base heal on dodge diminished from 450 to 150 (huge nerf on this specific sustain btw), but all the others stuff haven't been changed, will it be enough to not make a bunker meta ?

  • I have played the "support", healer warrior with shouts, and currently, it is actually really powerfull how you can heal your team and being pretty usefull, and you know what ? The heal on shouts have not been that much nerfed (around 10% less base heal). This build might be pretty strong after the patch.

Now, I'll respond to some comments in this forum, which I don't understand the reasoning :

  • "This patch will decrease the build diversity of the game" : I just litterally don't agree. Decreasing damage indirectly nerf CCs, because when someone will be CCed, he'll receive less damage during this vulnerability window, and therefore, the game will tend more to a state where the player will not be forced to pick a break-stun in his build, increasing the build diversity by picking other utilities than a breakstun. Currently, running a build without a breakstun probably mean low survivability.

  • "I don't understand reducing to 0 the damages of CCs skills, it is gonna make them useless" : For some rare specific skills which I agree with, because they are either situationnal or have an obvious animation/are hard to hit because it is a close range ability (big Oil bomb, and few other), this idea is really logic and healthy by following this thinking : Imagine 3 players that want to take down one main target pretty, it is then really easy for them to use each of their CCs abilities, without considering what does your mates, which will naturally kill the target by the overwhelming CCs and damages which will chain very easily (aren't you annoyed when you burn your 2 or 3 breakstun in a row, and you end up still CCed to death ?).Now, people will have to see if the target need to be CCed, to help other to hit it, or simply attacked, because the target is vulnerable.

  • "thieves is currently the most dominant pick, and therefore, it is the strongest class of the game, and you are not nerfing his damages as much as other classes + you didn't nerf his mobility + You should better nerf the shadow art tree" :You can say "X in the thief is too strong" or anything else, you'll hardly change my mind : From my experience, what make the thief currently very powerfull is not really one of his weapon set, or perma stealth (or even his mobility which is one of his intented strenght), but mostly because by pressing F1, he have an INSTANT teleport to his target, that interrupt it, rip 3 boons (which make the interrupt and follow up burst/damages stronger against stability/protection users), deal 2K (even more with pulmonary impact), heal the thief for 2K, poison, reducing the ennemy sustain, and since the thief have INSTANTLY teleported to his ennemy which is dazed without buffs, then vulnerable for one second, the thief will naturally auto-attack, increasing the burst potential of the combo. And you know what ? Most meta thief build (at least every popular ones) uses the same specifics traits so that they can achieve this thing.In this patch note, the auto-attack damages have been decreased like other classes, Mug damages (damages on steal) have been halved, pulmonary impact damages have been highly decreased, and the reaping boon is decreased to 2 boons ripped. This is a good nerf to the thief burst potential on stealing.

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@NecroSummonsMors.7816 said:

@NecroSummonsMors.7816 said:Dmg reduction is fine and corruption too(if and only if we see a real decline of boon spam, otherwise you'll see even more boonspam without anything keeping it in check).Now here are the things I really do not understand:
  • Executioners Scythe: why remove the dmg component when it's clear it was meanth as killer hit since even its dmg scales with the percentage of enemy's health. In my opinion you should remove the cc and keep the dmg, not do the opposite.
  • Spectral walk and armor didn't deserve a nerf since you already removed a key component for core necro survivability (foot in the grave). You now force any necromancer to basically run with always 2 or 3 breakstuns, not to talk about the fact that the breakstun on entering shroud, actually grants the ability to instantly react to a cc lock down.
  • Doom: the usefull part of this ability was the fact it was instant, most of all a lot of people complain about the fear duration not the fact it was instant. Infact doom being instant is crucial to actually try to stop a burst while in core shroud.
  • Infusing Terror: really you nerf stability on reaper shroud which needs it to stay in melee without being cc locked? Reduce it to 2 stacks instead of 3 but keep the duration. Because stab on reaper shroud is crucial, to be able to cast something that it is not autoattack since every skill has a 1.25s cast time or more. You expect a melee shroud mode with long cast times to actually be usefull without the ability to cast its slow abilities without any protection vs CCs?

You can't nerf dmg and corruption on necro and at the same time increase its weakness to CC too, in my opinion is too much. You say you want less stab on necro and that's fine but even going hammer on breakstuns? Like 15s increase on trail of anguish? Is any necro spec supposed to have 1 breakstun each 40s, when every other class in game can spam all the cc they have, which btw are more than just 1 or 2, and keep doing damage with every other skill in the kit while they cc lock a necro?

With the damage lower across the board, though, and the cc doing low damage, you don't need to worry about breaking stun as much, so you may not need to continue to run stunbreaks. Just wait it out and see.

What you are suggesting is the most uninterractive way of playing one could ever imagine. Losing control over your character without the possibility of doing anything is the worst possible experience you can give.

I don't find having 15 million stab, on top of 2 health bars, and a high natural health pool, making you tanky by default "interactive" and "fun". Especially after these damage nerfs. You want the best of all worlds. Too bad.

They only thing that will be tanky is core necro which will have 0 access to stability(except lich form, which nobody takes ever as elite). Reaper needs the stability to even be able to cast something, considering its long cast times. And if you compare reaper's stability access and duration to other classes it actually pales in comparison to them.And yes I consider getting your character cc locked while you can't do anything about it uninterractive and not fun, you should try it and see how an awfull experience it is, especially while the entire enemy team gets on you, because you are a sitting duck, and you can't even try to escape it.

Core necro is going to require more support to be effective going forward if 2 people jump on it and no one peels for it then its going to die. Which is likely going to happen alot unless you have a firebrand or tempest sitting on your rump the whole time or your teams damage and focus is good enough to kill more of the enemy team in the time it might take a few of them to kill the necromancer.

Generally speaking its never fun being the first one to be focused but the way i see it is necro will always be that way until untill they give it something that allows it to slip out of a situation thats not "wurm" like the other professions have or untill they take more away from the other professions making them higher potential targets to go for. Necro is generally easy to go for because people know its generally not going to be able to disengage a fight once it goes in. Either it kills you with the team or it dies its rare that you get a chance to escape as necro where people wont chase you down

Keep in mind though
  • Life force gains are not changing as of yet
  • CC skills wont be doing much damage so if the majority of the things that hit you are cc only in quick succession it wont be a ton of damage if any damage at all.
  • Overall damage is going to be lower meaning shroud can do what it was meant to do which is soak damage for sustain right now it fails at doing that because damage is too high shroud melts and you get blown up.
  • We are finally getting out of the kill quick or be killed meta. This meta does not work well for the design of necromancer having no hard defense so this is a good thing.

If you are focused and cc locked its not the end of the world. ITs not going to be fun but if the whole team focuses you and cant kill you in a reasonable time and your team can destory them because they are so dead set on focusing you then do what you can trading one death for 2-3 deaths on the enemy team is actually a better outcome a match overall which would mean you played your role effectively.

Short term/ in the moment and or perhaps roaming in wvw though yes it might feel pretty crappy. :C

Every thing you say, I already know since I play necro, and yes roaming on necro will now be even worse. Still the need to be baby sit because Anet doesn't/can't understand how to improve necro, while keeping it in check, leaves me baffled. This patch will nerf necromancer in every aspect dmg, corruption, breakstuns and stability, and the last 2 were not deserved at all in my opinion.

I think the nerf to spectrals was a bit much considering they took spectral mastery some months back with the idea of making the skills better at their baseline but are now almost undoing that with this patch which is likely a design flaw they didnt consider.

Foot in the grave was a trait players had been either asking to be replaced or outright buffed due to its age and well "be-careful what you wish for?" But in all honestly the trait they added should have been included in necro's kit some place. IS this spot perfect for it... probably not but it needs to be there for sure. I think this trait alone if people opt to use it will be a big game changer on how people start matches as core and reaper seeing as how right now that is the necromancers weakest moment in a match having to start with 0% life force.

I think its less on improving necro and more so on fixing the majority of everyone else who is overperforming while necro was held to "some kind" of standard while the others were not.There is a reason necro over 2 elite specs only mostly gained self might, no extra evasion, no blocks, not much more mobility or stability.

I personally would have rather seen foot in the grave buffed sure but Eternal Life aint a bad option on paper.

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Dralor.3701 said:Haven’t had time to read all the comments so I apologize if this has been asked but...

Evade frames? Protection? Aegis? It seems like you are going ham on damage and not even paying attention to other forms of sustain outside of flat healing.

One of the biggest issues this games has with pvp is evade and stealth uptime on thief/Mesmer. I don’t have a nicer way to say it but this sounds like more bad design that hasn’t fully been thought through or tested.

Phase Retreat: Increased cooldown from 10 seconds to 12 secondsIllusionary Counter: Increased cooldown from 8 seconds to 12 seconds.Axes of Symmetry: Increased cooldown from 10 seconds to 15 secondsSand Through Glass: Increased cooldown from 25 seconds to 30 secondsEvasive Mirror: Reduced mirror duration from 2 seconds to 1.5 secondsMirror: Increased cooldown from 15 seconds to 20 secondsMirage Cloak: This trait now reduces the mirage's endurance by 50 in competitive modes

Why in the kitten nugged do you even comment if you wont read the patch ?

EDIT remembered more!Illusionary Membrane: Reduced protection duration from 3 seconds to 2 secondsChaotic Persistence: Reduced bonus boon and condition duration per boon from 2% to 1%Method of Madness: Increased cooldown from 35 seconds to 75 secondsChaotic Dampening: Reduced protection duration from 4 seconds to 2.5 seconds

This was a pretty rude response, I did read the patch you just missed the context of my question. Also defensive much? Thief is probably my first or second most played class but there are still huge balance issues.

Cool downs are well and good but the functionality of certain mechanics are still a big problem at their core. Evades and invulnerability are bad for the game regardless of who has them, the time should be shortened if nothing else.

Protection is going to be even more punishing to power builds and continue to do nothing to rein in conditions.

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@Cal Cohen.2358 said:S O S core ele and tempest need help !Obsidian Flesh: This skill now locks the player's skill bar while invulnerable.This nerf targeted on weaver but kills focus core ele and focus tempest forever. Although there had been left just a few of them the past 3 years.IN THE NAME OF DIVERSITY please establish this change just for weaver, at least in PvP.For six years now I`m a passionate dagger/focus tempest player.15000 matches with my beloved character in PvP.And now this one and only essential defense skill gets destroyed?If this change happens I would be very very disappointed PLEASE HELP

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@Ghos.1326 said:

@NecroSummonsMors.7816 said:Dmg reduction is fine and corruption too(if and only if we see a real decline of boon spam, otherwise you'll see even more boonspam without anything keeping it in check).Now here are the things I really do not understand:
  • Executioners Scythe: why remove the dmg component when it's clear it was meanth as killer hit since even its dmg scales with the percentage of enemy's health. In my opinion you should remove the cc and keep the dmg, not do the opposite.
  • Spectral walk and armor didn't deserve a nerf since you already removed a key component for core necro survivability (foot in the grave). You now force any necromancer to basically run with always 2 or 3 breakstuns, not to talk about the fact that the breakstun on entering shroud, actually grants the ability to instantly react to a cc lock down.
  • Doom: the usefull part of this ability was the fact it was instant, most of all a lot of people complain about the fear duration not the fact it was instant. Infact doom being instant is crucial to actually try to stop a burst while in core shroud.
  • Infusing Terror: really you nerf stability on reaper shroud which needs it to stay in melee without being cc locked? Reduce it to 2 stacks instead of 3 but keep the duration. Because stab on reaper shroud is crucial, to be able to cast something that it is not autoattack since every skill has a 1.25s cast time or more. You expect a melee shroud mode with long cast times to actually be usefull without the ability to cast its slow abilities without any protection vs CCs?

You can't nerf dmg and corruption on necro and at the same time increase its weakness to CC too, in my opinion is too much. You say you want less stab on necro and that's fine but even going hammer on breakstuns? Like 15s increase on trail of anguish? Is any necro spec supposed to have 1 breakstun each 40s, when every other class in game can spam all the cc they have, which btw are more than just 1 or 2, and keep doing damage with every other skill in the kit while they cc lock a necro?

With the damage lower across the board, though, and the cc doing low damage, you don't need to worry about breaking stun as much, so you may not need to continue to run stunbreaks. Just wait it out and see.

What you are suggesting is the most uninterractive way of playing one could ever imagine. Losing control over your character without the possibility of doing anything is the worst possible experience you can give.

I don't find having 15 million stab, on top of 2 health bars, and a high natural health pool, making you tanky by default "interactive" and "fun". Especially after these damage nerfs. You want the best of all worlds. Too bad.

They only thing that will be tanky is core necro which will have 0 access to stability(except lich form, which nobody takes ever as elite). Reaper needs the stability to even be able to cast something, considering its long cast times. And if you compare reaper's stability access and duration to other classes it actually pales in comparison to them.And yes I consider getting your character cc locked while you can't do anything about it uninterractive and not fun, you should try it and see how an awfull experience it is, especially while the entire enemy team gets on you, because you are a sitting duck, and you can't even try to escape it.

Well of power also grants a second of stability, so your claim that core necro will have 0 is already false.1 second though i feel i should step in and say this. 1s of stability is exteremly hard to use defensively its more or less there so that the skill will not easily be interupted on cast. Now why might that be? Its because anet has added several stun breaks to the game that also have cast times which are generally bad. In the past well of power might have been your last or only breakstun up at the time so you use it but also need to evade a very high powered incoming attack or a chain of cc. So what happens is that it will break your stun but because you dodged or got hit with another cc immediately it would go on full cooldown and cause the well to not actually be cast on the ground.The 1 second stability was a lazy fix to a skill that should technically be instant with 0 cast time. This happened alot more commonly then you might think. Even the chronomancer stun break well is flawed by this design where you can use it to break a stun but need to dodge or get cced resulting in you breaking the stun but not casting the well and so the same thing was done they added a 1s stab to cover the cast time of the well. Trust me that stability is not there for long term or even modest short term defensive purposes. Try to imagine if one of your go to breakstuns had a cast time on it and the cast started after the stun was broken but if you dodged or got stunned agian the skill would fail to activate and go on full cd. I would literally not count this in the line of "necro has stability" ITs more of a bandaid that covers 50% of a design flaw to a stun break skill.While traited to Reaper, your shroud skill 3 grants a few stacks of stab. There's another source.Yes infusing terror this one is legit but also needed as reaper is going to be in melee range 9 times out of 10 if you have access to that skill. Did it need nerfs maybe, maybe not personally ithink this is one of they few they could have left alone.As well, while in Reaper, Chilled to the Bone grants 2? stacks of stability.Also true but does require on hit effect but to be honest i have no complaints about the changes they did here imo chill to the bone now being a 3s stun with lower cd is on par with other aoe elites that stun like jade winds etc.While traited with Scourge, you get Stability from Trail of Anguish.This is 1 stack easily removed tbh Trail of anguish is literally more about the trail and helping you make distance and the break stun itself more than the stability. I would have rather seen the stability removed and the cooldown modified to a lesser extent pushing it to 50s which is the same cd as spectral walk now does not exactly seem fair.Lets also mention one of your minions, though not sure if that minion gets the stab, or if the necro itself gets the stab, when you use the command skill for it.The minion gets it not the caster by the way the last hit of the golem is suppose to hit very hard and do the blow out effect not the knock down effect but that will almost never happen due to its badly designed code in which it pierces through people. Anet baked the best part of the golem charge into the skill in a way where you almost never see it land even in pve.There's also Feed From Corruption in Scourge, that allows you to gain the boon you corrupted on the enemy.This is not a legit self source as boons corrupted from foes can vary widely base on the profession and there is never always a promise that you will get the boons you intend to with corrupts. Truth be told when was the last time you saw a scourge in pvp let alone a scourge in pvp using this trait? At the moment i dont think you will see a scourge unless a firebrand is tied to it with a rope even after this patch i dont think the number of scourges is going to increase by much its still off the mark imo and likey will require a full rework at this point.

Now here's a word from our sponsors, ArenaNet:Necromancer has always been designed to be a resilient profession that was light on Stability. Since this update specifically is removing some stability from their traits we made sure to buff their stunbreak skills appropriately in response. Additionally we've fixed a few issues with minion responsiveness and buffed a few of the weaker minion command skills.Lets zoom in on that part. LIGHT on stability.LIGHT.

Any other questions?

Yeah where is the improvement to the stunbreak skills in the pvp side where they are actually more important? Im not trying to be a butt.... however they did...Remove spectral mastery some time ago and adjusted the cds and some effects on spectral skills as a QoL thing it also came with the same patch that removed "last ghasp" which was the necromancers passive proc trait that gave spectral armor when hit at or below 50%.Now they have pretty much reverted cds on spectral skills and strictly limited stability access.While yes in pve they did improve their stunbreak skills in pve they practically did the opposite in the pvp split. so im not sure how valid that post is when it comes to pvp.

To be honest i get that the direction they want to go with the game and where you are looking at it from but i also get why NecroSummons is super annoyed when looking at the notes on paper because they dont make the most sense. The global post you pulled from does not match the changes they performed in the pvp notes at all.

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@Nelson.7485 said:why did you always make same mistake was like HOT released.have you checked that time so many player left because you had reduced warrior before?Right now again? so you will see more ppl leave again. Now , warrior is not powerful and nerf well.Good. So smart.

Everyone got hard nerfs not just warrior.The cc doing no damage should have been thought out a bit more for classes like warrior who rely on them as predictable as they are for their bursts, imagine blades if not being done after hard cc lol. If warrior dps skills are being scaled down like the rest but WERE balanced around hard cc doing damage as well but now are not warrior could be a weak melee class lol imagine warrior the weak melee class of the game especially when u consider how integral hard cc are in that class lol. Classes that dont heavily rely on hard cc to do damage or as being part of their bursts will be loving this patch. With that said with everyone damage getting reduced warrior is definitely fair game for reductions as well.

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@Bazooka.3590 said:It's a nice thing to working on game balance finally. Better late than never.My problem is with this patch it will kill the continuity of the game mechanic between pvp wvw and pve. Pve will be a whole other game with total different traits and skills. It can be misleading and it breaks the consistency even more between the game mods.In spite of that I'm curious of this update but don't forget to read the community posts (what you always do anyway:P) Maybe a beta server and some beta weekends would be good idea before the official release.psPlease keep in mind that the missing damage will make teleporting and resurrecting skills/traits much stronger too.

This is one of my concerns about this patch also. I always felt doing one helped prepare you for the other.

Also, their skills tabs are already nonsense to use, they feel cumbersome and broken. Though it does seem to remember the template you were using for skills, it does not seem to change weapons, probably because it is on a different template. I ended up in pvp with my DH equipped with a staff. If they are going to make such a hard division, they need to make sure their systems work properly and better synergize.

I am also afraid it will be like playing WoW where to cool downs of even skill one were stupid slow. Especially since Anet wants to make cool downs felt. It is unnatural and makes battles feels like stilted. If they nerf mobility, and healing, we might as well just stand their and trade shots like old school Final Fantasy until someone loses.

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@"mrauls.6519" said:

Test of Faith

Please make the protection duration 3 or 4 seconds...
It was originally 6 seconds for a reason
That made me chuckleNot related.Spotter's Shot: Reduced power coefficient from 0.8 to 0.4. Increased immobilize duration from 1 second to 1.5 secondsIts going to be fun to be perma immobilized and blinded, while he pewpew through the smoke wall that blocks projectiles and being all safe :)

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@Avatar.3568 said:

@Nelson.7485 said:why did you always make same mistake was like HOT released.have you checked that time so many player left because you had reduced warrior before?Right now again? so you will see more ppl leave again. Now , warrior is not powerful and nerf well.Good. So smart.

I don't think they left because of war

if you have been through that period that you will know why during that time no one played warrior and players population were really small until they fixed the first version of berserker.Let's see it happens again. I will be the first one left.

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@"allias.1420" said:I like these changes. The shift from incredibly fast-paced, "spammy" combat system to a more thoughtful and tactical combat-based

I feel like people who are using "spammy" to describe gw2 combat don't actually understand what that word means. Not targeting you specifically, there's been quite a few people who've used that in this post and you just happen to be the latest. The only class that spams in combat is thief, because thief skills have no cool down and the class is designed around the initiative mechanic. Hence thieves spam their skills. No other class has skills with no CD and therefore can't spam.

The fast pace of gw2 combat has always been one of its greatest strengths imo. Look at other most other MMOs whose 'combat' is basically you standing still clicking skills and tab targeting in a yawnfest. So I disagree that the pace of the game needed to be slowed down.

The main issue is powercreep atm and again imo I don't think blanket nerfing every class, including to go so far as to nerf useless traits that nobody even uses is the right way to go about it. To address the powercreep they should have looked at each trait/skill individually and asked themselves, is this skill working as intended, and then make adjustments accordingly.

It feels like this patch is more about slowing down the game with a blanket nerf so that more casual players or players who can't keep up with the current pace can cope with PvP, than it is about addressing the actual issues that veteran players have with the classes. To reiterate, the powercreep should not be handled with a blanket nerf shorcut but rather by taking a tailored approach to each class. If a particular skill is overperforming, identify and tone it down. No need to turn over the games whole combat system into final fantasy 14 because thats what makes it unique.

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