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@bravan.3876 said:

@"viquing.8254" said:Longer cast time and animation will make mesmer less reactive while his gameplay is currently most passive based...

I am confused, how does a good visible animation and a fair cast time on that skill make Mesmer less reactive? From my point of view it makes the whole interaction from both sides more reactive. For the target it now is able to reactively dodge that skill on purpose and the Mesmer is able to bait dodges with it by stowing casts. Also i think the reduced quickness and slow is fair (even outside of the big patch) but a better animation and a 0,5s casttime would have been the more important changes to that skill.Because one of the main purpose is to condiclear. It will not be used if you have to fake cast = being hurt by condi during this time. Or has a +50% chances of fail because opponent counter it. If you can't efficiencly remove a 5 burn tick or 12 bleed etc, it will just lose his utility trait to more reliable condi clear like null field or MoR.I mean if this skill100% give 3 sec resistance instead of quickness, you could make it 1 sec cast, I don't care because the main use case will be filled but in this current state a more visible animation or longer cast time make it being unused like it was during 6 years.But in general the
passive playstyle from Condimesmer
(not only Mirage, the problem starts with too much condi dmg on normal autoattacks from clones already, then that core problem gets just doubled by Mirage, because condi clone ambushes are also more powerful than the power weapon clone ambushes for no reason) is the big problem, not this utility.And this problem of too passive playstyle of Condimirage because of op autoattacks and ambushes of condi clones doesn't even get solved by the one dodge change (ofc clone dmg gets reduced indirectly by that and also by the bleeding trait nerf but that hurts the actives ways of condi application and the in general more active and skilled power builds way more than it solves the root of the problem = the op condi ambushes and condi autoattacks from condi clones). Instead of destroying the whole spec with an unneeded 4. trade off and make Mirage more passive, they should have reduced condi clone autoattacks to nearly zero condi dmg and directly nerf/ change condi clone ambushes. I have no idea why they prefer nerfs which also affect not op and skilled power builds and active condi gameplay even more than the actually op and passive condistyle...Imo the main problem is more that they nerf all active way to do damage to hell because players can't manage a mesmer with active play, than the auto who does high damage (currently a condi mirage has a ~10 sec setup before start hurting with his passive play...).Also
Chaosline
what is clearly the most problematic traitlines from Mesmer (followed by Inspiration), op and noobfriendly as hell no matter what spec, is not nerfed enough. Barely enough inside of the overall nerfs from the big balance patch, for certain not compensating for the current overperforming lvl compared to everything that will get nerfed on other classes too.Crap you with your chaosline hate, really.Chaosline is the only gameplay defining traitline where the choice you does impact your gameplay.It's required because if you didn't play a one shot mesmer with all damaging trait in a 1 fail I die fashion, you must need the survival tools it provide.If tomorrow you gut this line, we will all endup playing
non-viable
"skilled" one-shot ponytrick.Inspiration is dead since PoF.The Mirage or Coremesmer builds we will see in PvP after patch will be just as braindead and annoying to fight or even more cancer then the current condimeta build. And skilled Mirage builds, not carried by Chaos or Inspiration (or probably even both) will not be seen anymore, they are overnerfed as a spin off from "not meta but usable hardmode for masochists" to "absolutely unplayable".1) No because on condi core chances are high you will choose illusion and you will land more shatter condi application instead of using ambush.2) I want more diversity than one power one-shot build, thanks. (Who will probably not be viable with CS suppression.)

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@viquing.8254 said:

@viquing.8254 said:Longer cast time and animation will make mesmer less reactive while his gameplay is currently most passive based...

I am confused, how does a good visible animation and a fair cast time on that skill make Mesmer less reactive? From my point of view it makes the whole interaction from both sides more reactive. For the target it now is able to reactively dodge that skill on purpose and the Mesmer is able to bait dodges with it by stowing casts. Also i think the reduced quickness and slow is fair (even outside of the big patch) but a better animation and a 0,5s casttime would have been the more important changes to that skill.Because one of the main purpose is to condiclear. It will not be used if you have to fake cast = being hurt by condi during this time. Or has a +50% chances of fail because opponent counter it. If you can't efficiencly remove a 5 burn tick or 12 bleed etc, it will just lose his utility trait to more reliable condi clear like null field or MoR.I mean if this skill100% give 3 sec resistance instead of quickness, you could make it 1 sec cast, I don't care because the main use case will be filled but in this current state a more visible animation or longer cast time make it being unused like it was during 6 years.

I see, you are right. The resistance instead quickness would be a good change to then give it a bit higher casttime. 1s cast would be to much, i don't want my grandma during sleep being able to play this game either. 0,5-0,7s should be more than enough.

But in general the
passive playstyle from Condimesmer
(not only Mirage, the problem starts with too much condi dmg on normal autoattacks from clones already, then that core problem gets just doubled by Mirage, because condi clone ambushes are also more powerful than the power weapon clone ambushes for no reason) is the big problem, not this utility.And this problem of too passive playstyle of Condimirage because of op autoattacks and ambushes of condi clones doesn't even get solved by the one dodge change (ofc clone dmg gets reduced indirectly by that and also by the bleeding trait nerf but that hurts the actives ways of condi application and the in general more active and skilled power builds way more than it solves the root of the problem = the op condi ambushes and condi autoattacks from condi clones). Instead of destroying the whole spec with an unneeded 4. trade off and make Mirage more passive, they should have reduced condi clone autoattacks to nearly zero condi dmg and directly nerf/ change condi clone ambushes. I have no idea why they prefer nerfs which also affect not op and skilled power builds and active condi gameplay even more than the actually op and passive condistyle...Imo the main problem is more that they nerf all active way to do damage to hell because players can't manage a mesmer with active play, than the auto who does high damage (currently a condi mirage has a ~10 sec setup before start hurting with his passive play...).That is what i said, Anet nerfs active ways of condi application more than the passive one because they are for whatever reason afraid to touch what rly is overperforming: Condi clones normal autoattacks and condi clone ambush skills. That would be enough. In return you don't need to nerf shatter condi traits and bleed traits that hard again. The funny thing is, that the one dodge change doesn't make Condimirage more skilled or less passive. It makes it even more passive and makes other builds with active ambush gameplay passive too (by deleting the possibility to dodge pure offensive for outplay reasons).

Also
Chaosline
what is clearly the most problematic traitlines from Mesmer (followed by Inspiration), op and noobfriendly as hell no matter what spec, is not nerfed enough. Barely enough inside of the overall nerfs from the big balance patch, for certain not compensating for the current overperforming lvl compared to everything that will get nerfed on other classes too.kitten you with your chaosline hate, really.Chaosline is the only gameplay defining traitline where the choice you does impact your gameplay.It's required because if you didn't play a one shot mesmer with all damaging trait in a 1 fail I die fashion, you must need the survival tools it provide.If tomorrow you gut this line, we will all endup playing
non-viable
"skilled" one-shot ponytrick.Inspiration is dead since PoF.

We will never agree on that.^^But there are playstyles in between of non reactive oneshot carried by all existing passive dmg mulitplier and stealthabuse (what also is carried by Chaos btw., during oneshot without PU stealthabuse, superspeed and passive boonsustain isn't even a problem and for certain more skilled than any build using Chaos or Inspiration) and a carried by low skill ceiling sustain semibunker (from Chaos or Inspiration) or full bunker (Chaos+Inspiration) playstyle. The Signet Powermirage build and the interrupt Powermirage build are only 2 out of several examples. Ofc all most likely unplayable after patch.Inspiration is not dead because bad or because it needs any skill to use. It is not used because Chaos is just much better in general (more op) and better in a meta with less condi than power meta builds. The Distortion spam variants from Inspiration signet builds are also not rly good for side node point holder (no point contest during Distortion). And Chaos has a little bit better synergy with Mirage. If you nerf Chaos enough you will see Inspiration again immediately and it will be cancer to fight that too. After patch i expect Chaos+Inspiration use anyway and abuse of detargeting skills on Mirage (axe, Illusionary Ambush) to compensate for the loss in active dodge sustain. Or Core with only one of those maybe but then stacking block-evade chain weapons like scepter, sword offhand and stealthskills in additon. We will face Mesmers can facetank everything inbetween the long periods they aren't even attackable (detargeting, blocking with high counter dmg, weaponskill evade chaining or in stealth, overall unattackable for 70% of the fight and that even on Core, i can't wait to face that).In my view they should have nerfed Chaos and Inspiration into the ground and not Mirage tbh. Those traitlines always caused the balance problems, they do it on core builds, they did it on each Chronobuild that was broken and for that meta and they did it on Mirage. They overperform and make Mesmer way easier to play no matter what spec. They are the root of all evil ever coming from Mesmermeta and always were. Not even Mirage is op without Chaoline used, during Chaosline can turn even a power core build into brainless noobfriendly stuff that also i can play.

The Mirage or Coremesmer builds we will see in PvP after patch will be just as braindead and annoying to fight or even more cancer then the current condimeta build. And skilled Mirage builds, not carried by Chaos or Inspiration (or probably even both) will not be seen anymore, they are overnerfed as a spin off from "not meta but usable hardmode for masochists" to "absolutely unplayable".

1) No because on condi core chances are high you will choose illusion and you will land more shatter condi application instead of using ambush.

You can choose illusions because on core you can take Inspiration+Chaos in addition during Mirage needs Duelling (Deceptive Evasion) to work with IH. And funny but 99% of the player in this game cannot play current "beyond broken Condimirage" with 2 dodges without Chaosline and even less can play Powermirage. It might be more active in the way it applies condis (not rly the normal autoattacks from clones are still op) but it will be way waaaay more braindead in terms of surviving. Also there will be no opportunity costs for dodges what exacerbates the dodge management in Mirage. No matter if Mirage or Core, it will be more of a bunker build than a condi build. Maybe a hybrid or power bunker amulet will be choosen over that (condishatter gets nerfs again, rofl). I bet both legs that we will not see a skilled Coremesmer or Mirage build in meta after patch.

2) I want more diversity than one power one-shot build, thanks.Sure sadly that diversity on power builds is exactly what will be killed by the next patch. Or do you expect to see any Powermirage using only Domination/Duelling or Illusion aside from Mirageline after patch? With only one dodge available? I doubt that.

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@"bravan.3876" said:Inspiration is not dead because bad or because it needs any skill to use.Inspiration is dead because it is bad...Main reason to take inspiration was for the condiclear. Now even if you remove chaos, people will choose just one utility instead of this line.It's supposed to be a line around heal and sustain.Just look at the traits :

  • Mender's purity is only good with Mantra of recovery which isn't used since they revome the 3rd charge and nerf centaures rune proc on cast.
  • Medic's feedback is average.
  • Restorative Mantras is meh, even with full healing power.
  • Sympathetic Visage is average but not reliable. (Basically it remove the passive auto-proc of poison and weakness from other class.).
  • Inspiring distortion is bad.
  • Warden's feedback is meh (more link to focus being so-so.).
  • Restorative illusions is good at heal/condi clear but destroy your damage output or you live better by putting pressure on opponent than with healing skills use.
  • Protected phantasms is bad.
  • Healing prism is bad.
  • Mental defense is very bad.
  • Illusionary inspiration is bad.
  • Blurred inscriptions is good on half signet, bad on the other half.

Basically the main reason to take inspiration is if you want to play around signet because they move the trait in this line.Mean at it's core it's supposed to be a line which main orientations are around phantasms and healing allies. Phantasm play is dead and healing allies is... Call me the day you see a mesmer healing in PvP instead of FB/ele.

In my view they should have nerfed Chaos and Inspiration into the ground and not Mirage tbh. Those traitlines always caused the balance problems, they do it on core builds, they did it on each Chronobuild that was broken and for that meta and they did it on Mirage. They overperform and make Mesmer way easier to play no matter what spec. They are the root of all evil ever coming from Mesmermeta and always were. Not even Mirage is op without Chaoline used, during Chaosline can turn even a power core build into brainless noobfriendly stuff that also i can play.

The Mirage or Coremesmer builds we will see in PvP after patch will be just as braindead and annoying to fight or even more cancer then the current condimeta build. And skilled Mirage builds, not carried by Chaos or Inspiration (or probably even both) will not be seen anymore, they are overnerfed as a spin off from "not meta but usable hardmode for masochists" to "absolutely unplayable".

1) No because on condi core chances are high you will choose illusion and you will land more shatter condi application instead of using ambush.

You can choose illusions because on core you can take Inspiration+Chaos in addition during Mirage needs Duelling (Deceptive Evasion) to work with IH. And funny but 99% of the player in this game cannot play current "beyond broken Condimirage" with 2 dodges without Chaosline and even less can play Powermirage. It might be more active in the way it applies condis (not rly the normal autoattacks from clones are still op) but it will be way waaaay more braindead in terms of surviving. Also there will be no opportunity costs for dodges what exacerbates the dodge management in Mirage. No matter if Mirage or Core, it will be more of a bunker build than a condi build. Maybe a hybrid or power bunker amulet will be choosen over that (condishatter gets nerfs again, rofl). I bet both legs that we will not see a skilled Coremesmer or Mirage build in meta after patch.If you choose Inspiration+Chaos you will do too little damage to do something. Because contrary to what people think, choosing utility or sustain traitline cost you damage. And I don't think pure mesmer tank will be viable post patch. Condi core will more likely be around duelling/chaos/illusions.And stop considering core mesmer has only and should have 3 traitline please.

2) I want more diversity than one power one-shot build, thanks.Sure sadly that diversity on power builds is exactly what will be killed by the next patch. Or do you expect to see any Powermirage using only Domination/Duelling or Illusion aside from Mirageline after patch? With only one dodge available? I doubt that.Powermirage isn't viable currently in a thief meta, like power mesmer in general when in this kind of meta and chances are high that the meta around thief will continue post patch so I don't see glasscanon mesmer being well represented in game.
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@viquing.8254 said:

@"bravan.3876" said:Inspiration is not dead because bad or because it needs any skill to use.Inspiration is dead because it is bad...Main reason to take inspiration was for the condiclear. Now even if you remove chaos, people will choose just one utility instead of this line.It's supposed to be a line around heal and sustain.Just look at the traits :
  • Mender's purity is only good with Mantra of recovery which isn't used since they revome the 3rd charge and nerf centaures rune proc on cast.
  • Medic's feedback is average.
  • Restorative Mantras is meh, even with full healing power.
  • Sympathetic Visage is average but not reliable. (Basically it remove the passive auto-proc of poison and weakness from other class.).
  • Inspiring distortion is bad.
  • Warden's feedback is meh (more link to focus being so-so.).
  • Restorative illusions is good at heal/condi clear but destroy your damage output or you live better by putting pressure on opponent than with healing skills use.
  • Protected phantasms is bad.
  • Healing prism is bad.
  • Mental defense is very bad.
  • Illusionary inspiration is bad.
  • Blurred inscriptions is good on half signet, bad on the other half.

Basically the main reason to take inspiration is if you want to play around signet because they move the trait in this line.Mean at it's core it's supposed to be a line which main orientations are around phantasms and healing allies. Phantasm play is dead and healing allies is... Call me the day you see a mesmer healing in PvP instead of FB/ele.

In my view they should have nerfed Chaos and Inspiration into the ground and not Mirage tbh. Those traitlines always caused the balance problems, they do it on core builds, they did it on each Chronobuild that was broken and for that meta and they did it on Mirage. They overperform and make Mesmer way easier to play no matter what spec. They are the root of all evil ever coming from Mesmermeta and always were. Not even Mirage is op without Chaoline used, during Chaosline can turn even a power core build into brainless noobfriendly stuff that also i can play.

The Mirage or Coremesmer builds we will see in PvP after patch will be just as braindead and annoying to fight or even more cancer then the current condimeta build. And skilled Mirage builds, not carried by Chaos or Inspiration (or probably even both) will not be seen anymore, they are overnerfed as a spin off from "not meta but usable hardmode for masochists" to "absolutely unplayable".

1) No because on condi core chances are high you will choose illusion and you will land more shatter condi application instead of using ambush.

You can choose illusions because on core you can take Inspiration+Chaos in addition during Mirage needs Duelling (Deceptive Evasion) to work with IH. And funny but 99% of the player in this game cannot play current "beyond broken Condimirage" with 2 dodges without Chaosline and even less can play Powermirage. It might be more active in the way it applies condis (not rly the normal autoattacks from clones are still op) but it will be way waaaay more braindead in terms of surviving. Also there will be no opportunity costs for dodges what exacerbates the dodge management in Mirage. No matter if Mirage or Core, it will be more of a bunker build than a condi build. Maybe a hybrid or power bunker amulet will be choosen over that (condishatter gets nerfs again, rofl). I bet both legs that we will not see a skilled Coremesmer or Mirage build in meta after patch.If you choose Inspiration+Chaos you will do too little damage to do something. Because contrary to what people think, choosing utility or sustain traitline cost you damage. And I don't think pure mesmer tank will be viable post patch. Condi core will more likely be around duelling/chaos/illusions.And stop considering core mesmer has only and should have 3 traitline please.

2) I want more diversity than one power one-shot build, thanks.Sure sadly that diversity on power builds is exactly what will be killed by the next patch. Or do you expect to see any Powermirage using only Domination/Duelling or Illusion aside from Mirageline after patch? With only one dodge available? I doubt that.Powermirage isn't viable currently in a thief meta, like power mesmer in general when in this kind of meta and chances are high that the meta around thief will continue post patch so I don't see glasscanon mesmer being well represented in game.

Inspiration is not a good line for conquest, i always agreed to that, it is only good in carrying low skilled player to survive longer than they should. And for that the line is still pretty good. Just that Chaos can do both: Carry the player and being useful for the side node job and for that useful for the team as well. And because of the main problem in GW2, the unbalance between sustain and dmg (all the builds that have high sustain but still way too much dmg, and yes Mesmer too on builds with either Chaos or Inspiration or even with both traitlines), we always had semi bunker or even full bunker Mesmerbuilds in Meta still doing good dmg, condi or power, compared to high risk no reward builds. As said we will never agree about Chaos and Inspiration, but for me from an inside and outside perspective (playing vs Mesmer on other classes and playing Metamesmer myself) i hate those 2 traitlines (just as i hate defense traitline on Warrior etc.), not only is it annoying to play vs Mesmers using one or even two of these traitlines, they make Mesmer that easy and mistake resistent to play, that even i can play them on high PvP lvl. Nothing i ever will have respect for. Just my view and we should agree to disagree here because that view i will never change.

Chaos is too passive and forgiving, Inspiration is too non reactive spammy and from that too forgiving in my view and both should be reworked into more active and/ or skillbased sustain but i say that to most defensive core traitlines from most classes, not only Mesmers. Since the traitline rework pre HoT defensive core traitlines are power creeped as hell and have too less opportunity costs in dmg and they are too passively or too low skill ceiling designed. I cannot rly say if the planned patch will change that basic problem with the opportunity costs (i doubt it, because it seems everyhting will get same treatment without dealing with currently more or less op stuff differently), and as long as this basic problem with defensive core traitlines will not be fixed, you can be sure that the dmg will be more than enough even when using both defense lines and unfair higher compared to high risk builds (and for that GW2 rewards noobfriedlier builds more that high skilled builds without tons of mistake covers).

Yes Core Duelling/Illusion/Chaos will be a thing played with Scepter/ sword offhand or pistol and sword/torch for the block-evade and stealthspam in addition. Most likely hybrid over full condi, because the block counters, just as pistol do insane dmg on power and hybrid builds (during pistol dmg from bleeds and shatter condi dmg is nerfed again, too much nerfed for a full condi playstyle i think). Condi dmg from Clone autoattacks will still be an important and for that passive part of the condi or hybrid style. During Powermes builds will dissappear most likely completely, in particular on Mirage due to the overnerf with the trade of nonsense, and strong Thief builds in general.How can anyone be happy about that trend? All these wrong nerfs so many ppl asked for just lower our chances to meet a Mesmer not carried by a braindead build, just by deleting skillful builds with unnecessary and wrong directed overnerfs during trying to balance condibuilds at wrong places. Enjoy :joy:

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@bravan.3876 said:

@bravan.3876 said:Inspiration is not dead because bad or because it needs any skill to use.Inspiration is dead because it is bad...Main reason to take inspiration was for the condiclear. Now even if you remove chaos, people will choose just one utility instead of this line.It's supposed to be a line around heal and sustain.Just look at the traits :
  • Mender's purity is only good with Mantra of recovery which isn't used since they revome the 3rd charge and nerf centaures rune proc on cast.
  • Medic's feedback is average.
  • Restorative Mantras is meh, even with full healing power.
  • Sympathetic Visage is average but not reliable. (Basically it remove the passive auto-proc of poison and weakness from other class.).
  • Inspiring distortion is bad.
  • Warden's feedback is meh (more link to focus being so-so.).
  • Restorative illusions is good at heal/condi clear but destroy your damage output or you live better by putting pressure on opponent than with healing skills use.
  • Protected phantasms is bad.
  • Healing prism is bad.
  • Mental defense is very bad.
  • Illusionary inspiration is bad.
  • Blurred inscriptions is good on half signet, bad on the other half.

Basically the main reason to take inspiration is if you want to play around signet because they move the trait in this line.Mean at it's core it's supposed to be a line which main orientations are around phantasms and healing allies. Phantasm play is dead and healing allies is... Call me the day you see a mesmer healing in PvP instead of FB/ele.

In my view they should have nerfed Chaos and Inspiration into the ground and not Mirage tbh. Those traitlines always caused the balance problems, they do it on core builds, they did it on each Chronobuild that was broken and for that meta and they did it on Mirage. They overperform and make Mesmer way easier to play no matter what spec. They are the root of all evil ever coming from Mesmermeta and always were. Not even Mirage is op without Chaoline used, during Chaosline can turn even a power core build into brainless noobfriendly stuff that also i can play.

The Mirage or Coremesmer builds we will see in PvP after patch will be just as braindead and annoying to fight or even more cancer then the current condimeta build. And skilled Mirage builds, not carried by Chaos or Inspiration (or probably even both) will not be seen anymore, they are overnerfed as a spin off from "not meta but usable hardmode for masochists" to "absolutely unplayable".

1) No because on condi core chances are high you will choose illusion and you will land more shatter condi application instead of using ambush.

You can choose illusions because on core you can take Inspiration+Chaos in addition during Mirage needs Duelling (Deceptive Evasion) to work with IH. And funny but 99% of the player in this game cannot play current "beyond broken Condimirage" with 2 dodges without Chaosline and even less can play Powermirage. It might be more active in the way it applies condis (not rly the normal autoattacks from clones are still op) but it will be way waaaay more braindead in terms of surviving. Also there will be no opportunity costs for dodges what exacerbates the dodge management in Mirage. No matter if Mirage or Core, it will be more of a bunker build than a condi build. Maybe a hybrid or power bunker amulet will be choosen over that (condishatter gets nerfs again, rofl). I bet both legs that we will not see a skilled Coremesmer or Mirage build in meta after patch.If you choose Inspiration+Chaos you will do too little damage to do something. Because contrary to what people think, choosing utility or sustain traitline cost you damage. And I don't think pure mesmer tank will be viable post patch. Condi core will more likely be around duelling/chaos/illusions.And stop considering core mesmer has only and should have 3 traitline please.

2) I want more diversity than one power one-shot build, thanks.Sure sadly that diversity on power builds is exactly what will be killed by the next patch. Or do you expect to see any Powermirage using only Domination/Duelling or Illusion aside from Mirageline after patch? With only one dodge available? I doubt that.Powermirage isn't viable currently in a thief meta, like power mesmer in general when in this kind of meta and chances are high that the meta around thief will continue post patch so I don't see glasscanon mesmer being well represented in game.

Inspiration is not a good line for conquest, i always agreed to that, it is only good in carrying low skilled player to survive longer than they should. And for that the line is still pretty good. Just that Chaos can do both: Carry the player and being useful for the side node job and for that useful for the team as well. And because of the main problem in GW2, the unbalance between sustain and dmg (all the builds that have high sustain but still way too much dmg, and yes Mesmer too on builds with either Chaos or Inspiration or even with both traitlines), we always had semi bunker or even full bunker Mesmerbuilds in Meta still doing good dmg, condi or power, compared to high risk no reward builds. As said we will never agree about Chaos and Inspiration, but for me from an inside and outside perspective (playing vs Mesmer on other classes and playing Metamesmer myself) i hate those 2 traitlines (just as i hate defense traitline on Warrior etc.), not only is it annoying to play vs Mesmers using one or even two of these traitlines, they make Mesmer that easy and mistake resistent to play, that even i can play them on high PvP lvl. Nothing i ever will have respect for. Just my view and we should agree to disagree here because that view i will never change.

Chaos is too passive and forgiving, Inspiration is too non reactive spammy and from that too forgiving in my view and both should be reworked into more active and/ or skillbased sustain but i say that to most defensive core traitlines from most classes, not only Mesmers. Since the traitline rework pre HoT defensive core traitlines are power creeped as hell and have too less opportunity costs in dmg and they are too passively or too low skill ceiling designed. I cannot rly say if the planned patch will change that basic problem with the opportunity costs (i doubt it, because it seems everyhting will get same treatment without dealing with currently more or less op stuff differently), and as long as this basic problem with defensive core traitlines will not be fixed, you can be sure that the dmg will be more than enough even when using both defense lines and unfair higher compared to high risk builds (and for that GW2 rewards noobfriedlier builds more that high skilled builds without tons of mistake covers).

Yes Core Duelling/Illusion/Chaos will be a thing played with Scepter/ sword offhand or pistol and sword/torch for the block-evade and stealthspam in addition. Most likely hybrid than full condi, because the block counters, just as pistol do insane dmg on power and hybrid builds (during pistol dmg from bleeds and shatter condi dmg is nerfed again, too much nerfed for a full condi playstyle i think). Condi dmg from Clone autoattacks will still be an important and for that passive part of the condi or hybrid style. During Powermes builds will dissappear most likely completely, in particular on Mirage due to the overnerf with the trade of nonsense, and strong Thief builds in general.How can anyone be happy about that trend? All these wrong nerfs so many ppl asked for just lower our chances to meet a Mesmer not carried by a braindead build, just by deleting skillful builds with unnecessary and wrong directed overnerfs during trying to balance condibuilds at wrong places. Enjoy :joy:

We will continue to disagree yeah, mean I don't know why you are persuaded that chaos is a passive trailine while duelling and mirage have the same if not more passive traits in them in the current meta :Chaos : Metaphysical Rejuvenation, Illusionary Membrane, Auspicious anguish and Chaotic persistence.Mirage : Renewing oasis, mirage mantle, IH used defensively. Considering the 2 other minor are link to the spec particularity.Duelling : Critical infusion, Sharper images, Evasive mirror, Master Fencer, Deceptive Evasion.So apart basing your chaos crusade on feelings or I don't know what I don't understand a point about your argumentation against the only gameplay defining traitline left we have.

The damage from sword oh on a condi build ins't that good, I will better see sword/torch, scepter/pistol or staff,scepter/x. And condi damage from sword auto is.... null. That's why it should be more active globally.

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So, scrapper has been on the extreme low side of effectiveness for a while... and it's obviously getting hit very hard in this update (along with everything else).... I think the healing turret nerf is overkill directed at nerfing Holo. It is getting nerfed worse than any other heal pretty much. On the other side of this, you all are really forcing scrapper to only be viable by taking the inventions line AND alchemy lines. Please reconsider this. Allow scrapper to be traited for more than tank- because you frankly haven't given it the ability to be a tank in pvp, and this update is just beating a dead horse in that respect.

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@N A T E.3108 said:So, scrapper has been on the extreme low side of effectiveness for a while... and it's obviously getting hit very hard in this update (along with everything else).... I think the healing turret nerf is overkill directed at nerfing Holo. It is getting nerfed worse than any other heal pretty much. On the other side of this, you all are really forcing scrapper to only be viable by taking the inventions line AND alchemy lines. Please reconsider this. Allow scrapper to be traited for more than tank- because you frankly haven't given it the ability to be a tank in pvp, and this update is just beating a dead horse in that respect.

Scrapper is considered to be weak. But I know there are at least two of them in Platin2. One is tanky but the other one plays a cheesy build doing even good dmg.These guys are definetely experianced scrapper-specialists and it might take time to find out how to play scrapper strong, but its possible.

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@viquing.8254 said:

@bravan.3876 said:Inspiration is not dead because bad or because it needs any skill to use.Inspiration is dead because it is bad...Main reason to take inspiration was for the condiclear. Now even if you remove chaos, people will choose just one utility instead of this line.It's supposed to be a line around heal and sustain.Just look at the traits :
  • Mender's purity is only good with Mantra of recovery which isn't used since they revome the 3rd charge and nerf centaures rune proc on cast.
  • Medic's feedback is average.
  • Restorative Mantras is meh, even with full healing power.
  • Sympathetic Visage is average but not reliable. (Basically it remove the passive auto-proc of poison and weakness from other class.).
  • Inspiring distortion is bad.
  • Warden's feedback is meh (more link to focus being so-so.).
  • Restorative illusions is good at heal/condi clear but destroy your damage output or you live better by putting pressure on opponent than with healing skills use.
  • Protected phantasms is bad.
  • Healing prism is bad.
  • Mental defense is very bad.
  • Illusionary inspiration is bad.
  • Blurred inscriptions is good on half signet, bad on the other half.

Basically the main reason to take inspiration is if you want to play around signet because they move the trait in this line.Mean at it's core it's supposed to be a line which main orientations are around phantasms and healing allies. Phantasm play is dead and healing allies is... Call me the day you see a mesmer healing in PvP instead of FB/ele.

In my view they should have nerfed Chaos and Inspiration into the ground and not Mirage tbh. Those traitlines always caused the balance problems, they do it on core builds, they did it on each Chronobuild that was broken and for that meta and they did it on Mirage. They overperform and make Mesmer way easier to play no matter what spec. They are the root of all evil ever coming from Mesmermeta and always were. Not even Mirage is op without Chaoline used, during Chaosline can turn even a power core build into brainless noobfriendly stuff that also i can play.

The Mirage or Coremesmer builds we will see in PvP after patch will be just as braindead and annoying to fight or even more cancer then the current condimeta build. And skilled Mirage builds, not carried by Chaos or Inspiration (or probably even both) will not be seen anymore, they are overnerfed as a spin off from "not meta but usable hardmode for masochists" to "absolutely unplayable".

1) No because on condi core chances are high you will choose illusion and you will land more shatter condi application instead of using ambush.

You can choose illusions because on core you can take Inspiration+Chaos in addition during Mirage needs Duelling (Deceptive Evasion) to work with IH. And funny but 99% of the player in this game cannot play current "beyond broken Condimirage" with 2 dodges without Chaosline and even less can play Powermirage. It might be more active in the way it applies condis (not rly the normal autoattacks from clones are still op) but it will be way waaaay more braindead in terms of surviving. Also there will be no opportunity costs for dodges what exacerbates the dodge management in Mirage. No matter if Mirage or Core, it will be more of a bunker build than a condi build. Maybe a hybrid or power bunker amulet will be choosen over that (condishatter gets nerfs again, rofl). I bet both legs that we will not see a skilled Coremesmer or Mirage build in meta after patch.If you choose Inspiration+Chaos you will do too little damage to do something. Because contrary to what people think, choosing utility or sustain traitline cost you damage. And I don't think pure mesmer tank will be viable post patch. Condi core will more likely be around duelling/chaos/illusions.And stop considering core mesmer has only and should have 3 traitline please.

2) I want more diversity than one power one-shot build, thanks.Sure sadly that diversity on power builds is exactly what will be killed by the next patch. Or do you expect to see any Powermirage using only Domination/Duelling or Illusion aside from Mirageline after patch? With only one dodge available? I doubt that.Powermirage isn't viable currently in a thief meta, like power mesmer in general when in this kind of meta and chances are high that the meta around thief will continue post patch so I don't see glasscanon mesmer being well represented in game.

Inspiration is not a good line for conquest, i always agreed to that, it is only good in carrying low skilled player to survive longer than they should. And for that the line is still pretty good. Just that Chaos can do both: Carry the player and being useful for the side node job and for that useful for the team as well. And because of the main problem in GW2, the unbalance between sustain and dmg (all the builds that have high sustain but still way too much dmg, and yes Mesmer too on builds with either Chaos or Inspiration or even with both traitlines), we always had semi bunker or even full bunker Mesmerbuilds in Meta still doing good dmg, condi or power, compared to high risk no reward builds. As said we will never agree about Chaos and Inspiration, but for me from an inside and outside perspective (playing vs Mesmer on other classes and playing Metamesmer myself) i hate those 2 traitlines (just as i hate defense traitline on Warrior etc.), not only is it annoying to play vs Mesmers using one or even two of these traitlines, they make Mesmer that easy and mistake resistent to play, that even i can play them on high PvP lvl. Nothing i ever will have respect for. Just my view and we should agree to disagree here because that view i will never change.

Chaos is too passive and forgiving, Inspiration is too non reactive spammy and from that too forgiving in my view and both should be reworked into more active and/ or skillbased sustain but i say that to most defensive core traitlines from most classes, not only Mesmers. Since the traitline rework pre HoT defensive core traitlines are power creeped as hell and have too less opportunity costs in dmg and they are too passively or too low skill ceiling designed. I cannot rly say if the planned patch will change that basic problem with the opportunity costs (i doubt it, because it seems everyhting will get same treatment without dealing with currently more or less op stuff differently), and as long as this basic problem with defensive core traitlines will not be fixed, you can be sure that the dmg will be more than enough even when using both defense lines and unfair higher compared to high risk builds (and for that GW2 rewards noobfriedlier builds more that high skilled builds without tons of mistake covers).

Yes Core Duelling/Illusion/Chaos will be a thing played with Scepter/ sword offhand or pistol and sword/torch for the block-evade and stealthspam in addition. Most likely hybrid than full condi, because the block counters, just as pistol do insane dmg on power and hybrid builds (during pistol dmg from bleeds and shatter condi dmg is nerfed again, too much nerfed for a full condi playstyle i think). Condi dmg from Clone autoattacks will still be an important and for that passive part of the condi or hybrid style. During Powermes builds will dissappear most likely completely, in particular on Mirage due to the overnerf with the trade of nonsense, and strong Thief builds in general.How can anyone be happy about that trend? All these wrong nerfs so many ppl asked for just lower our chances to meet a Mesmer not carried by a braindead build, just by deleting skillful builds with unnecessary and wrong directed overnerfs during trying to balance condibuilds at wrong places. Enjoy :joy:

We will continue to disagree yeah, mean I don't know why you are persuaded that chaos is a passive trailine while duelling and mirage have the same if not more passive traits in them in the current meta :Chaos : Metaphysical Rejuvenation, Illusionary Membrane, Auspicious anguish and Chaotic persistence.Mirage : Renewing oasis, mirage mantle, IH used defensively. Considering the 2 other minor are link to the spec particularity.Duelling : Critical infusion, Sharper images, Evasive mirror, Master Fencer, Deceptive Evasion.So apart basing your chaos crusade on feelings or I don't know what I don't understand a point about your argumentation against the only gameplay defining traitline left we have.

The damage from sword oh on a condi build ins't that good, I will better see sword/torch, scepter/pistol or staff,scepter/x. And condi damage from sword auto is.... null. That's why it should be more active globally.

Great now i need to google all those traits :joy:

You put a lot of traits in the same passive category while they are very different.

  1. There are passive traits i would call passive category 1, stuff like stunbreak and stabi proc on warrior defense line when eating a cc or the passive endure pain proc or the passive thief dodge trait or active passive procs like Necros Lesser Spinal Shivers. Those passives all do something automatically and the reward of it procs without the player needs to think about it at all. The game plays itself here.
  2. Then there are passive procs of effects like boons. Here you can differ between an active and a passive continuation. If a trait gives a passive proc of vigor then the vigor itself doesn't carry the player by simply existing. He needs to use this vigor (endurance) for active and reactive plays. He can waste the resource, the game doesn't play for itself. The passive proc of the boon only higher the resources for his active defensive play. That is common and active way of using traits to buff gameplay aspects of a build. If you say these traits are passive and should not exist, then there is no trait type left you can use for a skilled game^^ Other thing is a passive proc of aegis or protection. These boons have reward by themself, just by being active. There is no active gameplay linked to them, they provide facetanking (except of the skillful play to see, that you have aegis and don't need to dodge the next attack). If these boons get generated passive and random by the game, then neither the player nor his target can active work with them. They proc in a good moment and neutralzise a 10k hit and the player survives just by a lucky random proc or they proc in a useless moment. Passive generated and for that not active by player timed protection procs (for example when he expect a burst coming) also have no skillful play included, just by existence it enables the player to facetank more. He can be lucky that it passively procs right before a burst or not. Means there is a big difference between procing active gameplay resources (vigor, might, fury) passive or procing passive gameplay rewards passive providing low skill ceiling non reactive facetank gameplay. Last thing is comparable with the passive traits category no. 1. PU randomly procing aegis is like 100 times more passive and carrying, like passive passive than a passive proc of vigor what is passive active. Vigor proc just creates active gameplay resources and those traits are for that active and not carrying (as long as dodges overall cannot be chained to nearly perma dodging ofc). During a random aegis proc can cover massive player mistakes and slow reaction time and that in a way neither the player nor his opponent can tactical and active work with.
  3. Then there is stuff that happens on dodge. Dodgetraits are not per se passive, you have to use the dodge button. If a reward on dodge trait is mostly active or passive depends on how the reward is designed (i explained that several times with the difference between condi ambushes and power ambushes mostly from sword). Means when the effect is more based on effects the player can active work with (daze for active and reactive interrupts, timed blind on a key burst skill or big cc for active defensive gameplay, timed immob to prepare a burst etc.) to outplay opponents it is not rly passive. The player has to consider to use dodges well timed for the purpose of that reward and not only to defensive avoid attacks. That highers opportunity costs for dodges and makes dodge management harder and adds tactical deepness to the dodge management. Only when the dodge reward is too weak so that offensive dodges only for that reward are not rewarding enough, than it will become just a little passive side effect, no one would active work with. But at least then you can be sure that the effect is not strong enough to be power creeped and heavily carry the player (like Mirages reggen and protection after dodge traits). On the other side when the dodge reward (in particular when the dodge reward is only about dmg and not active effects to outplay opponents) is too strong then it can become passive. When the dmg is too high, that high, that dodging only defensive is rewarding enough it will also only be a passive side effect no one would dodge offensive for ever. The player gets too much rewarded out of the dodge trait with pure defensive dodges and for that doesn't need to think about offensive dodges to maximise rewards from the dodge trait. Means balancing dodge traits to make them mostly active and not carrying bad players and add skill ceiling is a very hard and difficult work. You need to find nearly perfect equilibrium between a not too weak dodge reward (or no one will ever waste a dodge offensive for that) and a too strong dodge reward (no one will ever use a pure offensive dodge because it is simply not needed to get the maximum reward out of the dodge trait as happens on Condimirage). Here on Condimirage the ambushes are only about dmg, no other effects which only have sense when timed well, and the dmg is also too high and for that mostly passive. Also you need to not limit the dodge resource too much so offensive outplay dodges become per se impossible. Then the dodge trait will be used as only passive side effect from pure defensive dodges too and all the skill ceiling and harder dodge management will be gone. Anet managed that balancing act very well for sword and gs on Mirage but not for the condi clone ambushes. And with the one dodge change they will destroy even what they did well on Mirage.
  4. Then you have passive dmg multiplier with different types. One type highers dmg on specific skills or linked to specific player actions. Means they have an element of active gameplay, the player needs to have them in mind and either do some specific action or use specific skills to get a reward from them. Then there are passive dmg traits just higher dmg on all skills. These traits are completely passive because they have no impact on the player behavior/playstyle. The player doesn't need to work with them, they are just there affecting all skills the same. If these rly passive dmg traits on all skills have too high dmg they lower skill ceiling and floor and carry the player who will get rewarded with higher dmg no matter how bad he plays the class in general and he will be rewarded with broken dmg will put the opponent into defense too easy (like instant max range 7k no clone mw with instant blink. A high value combo when using all dmg traits Mesmer has incl. rune and sigils and without any counterplay because full instant no animation from max range). In general passive dmg traits are basic trait types no game can live without and are no problem as long as they are not too strong. The more passive the application and the more skill-universal they are, the weaker they should be. Dmg traits also always have the need to actively hit your skills, they are just a support of your active actions, giving your active actions more value. Without active player actions they do nothing. Means passive dmg traits are not per se a low skill ceiling passive trait which should not exist. If they are too strong you can just nerf their effect and they are balanced and do not lower skill ceiling, not passive like category 1.

Lets now look at the traits you mentioned:For example Critical infusion, the application of vigor is passive true but you have to use that vigor active. That is nothing carrying compared to a random aegis block from PU can mean the difference between being killed by a 10k hit or not get hit at all or compared to a passive protection proc. That is not a trait forces passive (and non reactive facetank) gameplay, it is not a trait carrying the player by making the game play itself. This is a trait supports active defensive gameplay. it is active overall.Sharper images not passive. The player at least has to play the game and produce hits (it is not like every 10s bleed gets proced on the target as soons as player is infight even when the player itself is afk). This is just a dmg multiplier, it could be designed more active but in the end just a condi dmg mulitplier. When not too strong nothing will carry the player by itself.Evasive Mirror is a dodge trait and for that not passive category 1. It is also something a player can active work with (for example it can have more value to waste a dodge into nothing or for a low dmg attack to then reflect and not dodge a high dmg projectile for the extra dmg). You also can waste it by panic dodging a projectile effect while having reflect up. But because that reflect has a big delay (procs after the dodge is finished) you barely can use it that reactive and most projectile classes like Ranger have spammy combos make it worth to dodge one projectile and reflect the next attack automatically (like the longbow 2+3 combo). This trait is overall more on the passive side but far away from being as passive and broken as category 1 skills (for example PU random aegis proc or thief auto-dodge trait). I never was a fan of that trait, still not such an universal carry and with more counterplay (not randomly proced) like aegis from PU.Master Fencer is not passive aside from the boon proc. Good player knows when they get fury and will use big skills or burst combos timed during that fury uptime. Means a good player will get way more reward out of that than a bad player. It influences gameplay behavior and in general fury has no falue without the player actively pressing buttons. Its more or less a dmg multiplier linked to a specific situation a player can active work with and will get more rewarded when he actively work with it and change his gameplay depending on having fury up or not.Deceptive Evasion is pretty much the most active dodge trait in the game. You get a reward on an active button use, adds opportunity costs and harder dodge management and then the reward even needs to be used for something impactful by another button use (shatters). Superiority Complex is way more passive and lower skill ceiling than Deceptive Evasion. But both are far away from being as passive and player carrying than anything in Chaosline, both are just simple dmg multiplier with DE being way more active and tactical and more utility based than dmg based compared to Superiority Complex.

I agree to Mirage mantle is a more passive dodge trait, not a fan of it, but duration is kind of short, means not that power creeped. Mirage as traitline overall has way less access to boons than Chaosline with way less boonduration. IH is a dodge trait, per se not passive, depends on the ambush skills what comes out of it. Condi ambushes are passive and op not IH. The majority of skills in Mirage are active. You have no category 1 passives in it. No random aegis blocks no boonspam on buttons you spam for different reasons (except the short reggen or protection after each dodge). Renewing Oasis is also more of a passive dodge trait (no one would waste a dodge only for the reggen proc, at least barely, could save your life when running around with a burn stack on low hp it can mean live or die when you dodge only for the reggen and condi dmg reduction). But not powercreeped. Also reggen barely will carry low reaction time and facetanking key burst skills. Passive reggen procts are the least problem in terms of passive carry and needs to be accompanied by a lot of other passive facetank sustain to carry bad players remarkable. That is only given when combining Mirage with Chaosline. Mirage whole nature is build around active dodging and getting dmg and sustain from hat. You can spec it kind of passive and noobcarry when going for reggen and prot on dodge and stunbreak on dodge. This would be a similar passive low skill ceiling way of playing Mirage but still not powercreeped in the boon access (EM stunbreak is broken tho). But the most common traitchoice with Desert Distortion and IH is pretty active and high skill ceiling (at least on power). During Chaos is per se simple passive or at least low skill ceiling facetank sustain with boon procs by either braindead spamming skills for other purposes or simple passive random procs category 1 worthy.

Chaosline: Minor traits passive procs category 1 at specific points, adept traits not rly passive just op in its rewards or low skill ceiling facetank sustain, not used (Illusionary Defense). Auspicious Anguish half of it completely passive category 1, the distortion part is active and kind of skillful the whole trait overall just op in its reward and eleminates the last weakness Chaosline had (condis). Chaotic Transference low skill ceiling facetank sustain, Chaotic Dampening one totally passive and one active part. Overall low skill ceiling facetank sustain from protection and lower cds for less punishment of skillwaste on a sustainy facetank weapon for even more boon spam carry. Chaotic Interruption, active basic mechanic highly skillbased but either broken in its reward deleting all skilled aspect of that trait (old CI) or unused now (and too random in its reward will prevent active and tactical uses from the player and his opponent). PU completely passive procs during stealthspam abuse, by design a broken low skill ceiling trait rewarding a per se low skillceiling defense mechanic (stealth) even more, also provides low effort bait mechanic by simply staelthstacking instead active outplaying opponents defensive skills, random procs means neither the player nor opponents can work with it tactical. Random Aegis and protection are passive passive procs near category 1. Bountiful Disillusionment boons on click so not category 1 passive but still non of the boons have impact on the shatter behavior, they become a passive side effect from shattering for other purposes (or you just spam the shatters on cd for the boons because shatters are useless on condibuilds for their main purpose of applying condi dmg), either way it is just stacking and spamming boons without the player needs to think about it (just like heal on shatter in Inspiration btw). The only boon you would waste a shatter for to actively and reactive counter opponents moves is stabi to cover a stomp or rezz or a cast of a skill to avoid a cc. Funny that the strongest boon on that trait is the only one can lead into active and reactive uses from shatters just to proc that boon as reaction to opponents behavior. Aside form that: just braindead spam to stack boons with a power creeped long duration. Means during you can spec Mirage active and high skill ceiling you can't do that by using Chaosline at all, not even if you would want to. The only skillful and active things in Chaos are half of Auspicious Anguish but it is overall op and you have a massive passive carry included or CI what could be active and skilled but the reward is shit and too random for active and skilled uses and tactical plays from the Mesmer or his opponent. No matter what traits you pick in Chaos, the moment you use that traitline you are carried and the build has lower skill ceiling. During traits in Duelling/ Mirage are per se less passive or less power creeped and the few you could consider more passive and lower skill ceiling can be completely avoided by using other clearly active trait alternatives in the traitline (like using blind on f3 instead reflect after dodge, using Desert Distortion over protection on dodge, using IH over EM on power builds).

Chaos beats Duelling and Mirage in its passive and noobcarry low skillceiling nature by far. Is also power creeped in its boonspam defense/offense (why even offensive boons in a defensive traitline?) and the overall rewards the traitline gives. It provides way more non reactive facetank sustain even on active skill activation, and brainless spam from skills for non reactive perma self buffs with boons by simple on-cd-spam of skills, means even the active traits in Chaos have still low skill ceiling.

One thought about Arcane Thievery i had: I think you are right with what you say, when you imply that Arcane Thievery is meant as condi remove in the first place. But i don't think it is meant like that. It is an on hit skill for the most parts, to selfbuff with boons also by on hit boonsteal and doing dmg by condi transfer. For a good condiremove it would be way to strong with all the side rewards. If you want a simple and effective condi remove Arcane should not be your choice. And for that i think it would be fair to give this on hit skill, that is meant to be a reactive skill, a longer cast time and dodgeable animation. Defensive condi remove is not the purpose of the skill i think, it is more an offensive skill and for that should be dodgeable by animation and casttime. If Anet thinks, they want Mesmer to have such a strong skill as useful condi remove they could change quickness into resistance and give it casttime as you suggested but maybe would be power creeped op then. No clue...

We maybe should start to use pm, no one except you and me will read our wall of text discussion anyway i guess.

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@hotte in space.2158 said:

@N A T E.3108 said:So, scrapper has been on the extreme low side of effectiveness for a while... and it's obviously getting hit very hard in this update (along with everything else)....
I think the healing turret nerf is overkill
directed at nerfing Holo. It is getting nerfed worse than any other heal pretty much. On the other side of this,
you all are really forcing scrapper to only be viable by taking the inventions line AND alchemy lines
. Please reconsider this.
Allow scrapper to be traited for more than tank- because you frankly haven't given it the ability to be a tank in pvp
, and this update is just beating a dead horse in that respect.

Scrapper is considered to be weak. But I know there are at least two of them in Platin2. One is tanky but the other one plays a cheesy build doing even good dmg.These guys are definetely experianced scrapper-specialists and it might take time to find out how to play scrapper strong, but its possible.

I understand that it’s possible to do some damage currently with scrapper. I main a berserk/demo damage scrapper and have played into legend on it a couple times in the past on similar builds... my argument is not so much at the current state of scrapper (even though it is currently “underpowered” in terms of the class performance-to-skill ratio) but instead what the state of scrapper will be after this patch. Tank scrapper, regardless of how you look at it, is not at all viable right now in the current meta. It does little to no damage with virtually non-existent party support, and it is easily forced off point by any damage-focused class or CC (and it’s easily killed 1v2, especially with so little access to stab/stunbreaks). It isn’t capable of effectively filling the tank role in the way ele and guard can. Heck, Holo can tank better and heal more! After this next patch, they will have effectively forced all scrappers into bringing both the alchemy and inventions traitlines just to survive. Scrapper has no alternative method of healing outside of the heal skill (because impact savant is a joke until you are hitting 3+people/second with aoe)... so, without f5 med pack drop, to deal with condi and any damage all, we now are going to be forced into always bringing bulwark gyro (waste of space) along with the retarded medic gyro (to try and utilize anti corrosion plating). If you slot ANY OTHER TRAITLINE you will have to bring purge gyro (supreme waste of space) just to deal with condi- and that, of course, will be in the place of a necessary stunbreak or utility. For a melee class that is supposed to be mid-range damage + tanky, these changes will make it the equivalent of a thief minus the damage, mobility, and stealth. Scrapper is not exactly tanky in terms of handling damage... How is this supposed to compete with a war or rev... or anything for that matter.

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@bravan.3876 said:We maybe should start to use pm, no one except you and me will read our wall of text discussion anyway i guess.I think it's interesting to everyone to see other points of views.

@bravan.3876 said:Inspiration is not dead because bad or because it needs any skill to use.Inspiration is dead because it is bad...Main reason to take inspiration was for the condiclear. Now even if you remove chaos, people will choose just one utility instead of this line.It's supposed to be a line around heal and sustain.Just look at the traits :
  • Mender's purity is only good with Mantra of recovery which isn't used since they revome the 3rd charge and nerf centaures rune proc on cast.
  • Medic's feedback is average.
  • Restorative Mantras is meh, even with full healing power.
  • Sympathetic Visage is average but not reliable. (Basically it remove the passive auto-proc of poison and weakness from other class.).
  • Inspiring distortion is bad.
  • Warden's feedback is meh (more link to focus being so-so.).
  • Restorative illusions is good at heal/condi clear but destroy your damage output or you live better by putting pressure on opponent than with healing skills use.
  • Protected phantasms is bad.
  • Healing prism is bad.
  • Mental defense is very bad.
  • Illusionary inspiration is bad.
  • Blurred inscriptions is good on half signet, bad on the other half.

Basically the main reason to take inspiration is if you want to play around signet because they move the trait in this line.Mean at it's core it's supposed to be a line which main orientations are around phantasms and healing allies. Phantasm play is dead and healing allies is... Call me the day you see a mesmer healing in PvP instead of FB/ele.

In my view they should have nerfed Chaos and Inspiration into the ground and not Mirage tbh. Those traitlines always caused the balance problems, they do it on core builds, they did it on each Chronobuild that was broken and for that meta and they did it on Mirage. They overperform and make Mesmer way easier to play no matter what spec. They are the root of all evil ever coming from Mesmermeta and always were. Not even Mirage is op without Chaoline used, during Chaosline can turn even a power core build into brainless noobfriendly stuff that also i can play.

The Mirage or Coremesmer builds we will see in PvP after patch will be just as braindead and annoying to fight or even more cancer then the current condimeta build. And skilled Mirage builds, not carried by Chaos or Inspiration (or probably even both) will not be seen anymore, they are overnerfed as a spin off from "not meta but usable hardmode for masochists" to "absolutely unplayable".

1) No because on condi core chances are high you will choose illusion and you will land more shatter condi application instead of using ambush.

You can choose illusions because on core you can take Inspiration+Chaos in addition during Mirage needs Duelling (Deceptive Evasion) to work with IH. And funny but 99% of the player in this game cannot play current "beyond broken Condimirage" with 2 dodges without Chaosline and even less can play Powermirage. It might be more active in the way it applies condis (not rly the normal autoattacks from clones are still op) but it will be way waaaay more braindead in terms of surviving. Also there will be no opportunity costs for dodges what exacerbates the dodge management in Mirage. No matter if Mirage or Core, it will be more of a bunker build than a condi build. Maybe a hybrid or power bunker amulet will be choosen over that (condishatter gets nerfs again, rofl). I bet both legs that we will not see a skilled Coremesmer or Mirage build in meta after patch.If you choose Inspiration+Chaos you will do too little damage to do something. Because contrary to what people think, choosing utility or sustain traitline cost you damage. And I don't think pure mesmer tank will be viable post patch. Condi core will more likely be around duelling/chaos/illusions.And stop considering core mesmer has only and should have 3 traitline please.

2) I want more diversity than one power one-shot build, thanks.Sure sadly that diversity on power builds is exactly what will be killed by the next patch. Or do you expect to see any Powermirage using only Domination/Duelling or Illusion aside from Mirageline after patch? With only one dodge available? I doubt that.Powermirage isn't viable currently in a thief meta, like power mesmer in general when in this kind of meta and chances are high that the meta around thief will continue post patch so I don't see glasscanon mesmer being well represented in game.

Inspiration is not a good line for conquest, i always agreed to that, it is only good in carrying low skilled player to survive longer than they should. And for that the line is still pretty good. Just that Chaos can do both: Carry the player and being useful for the side node job and for that useful for the team as well. And because of the main problem in GW2, the unbalance between sustain and dmg (all the builds that have high sustain but still way too much dmg, and yes Mesmer too on builds with either Chaos or Inspiration or even with both traitlines), we always had semi bunker or even full bunker Mesmerbuilds in Meta still doing good dmg, condi or power, compared to high risk no reward builds. As said we will never agree about Chaos and Inspiration, but for me from an inside and outside perspective (playing vs Mesmer on other classes and playing Metamesmer myself) i hate those 2 traitlines (just as i hate defense traitline on Warrior etc.), not only is it annoying to play vs Mesmers using one or even two of these traitlines, they make Mesmer that easy and mistake resistent to play, that even i can play them on high PvP lvl. Nothing i ever will have respect for. Just my view and we should agree to disagree here because that view i will never change.

Chaos is too passive and forgiving, Inspiration is too non reactive spammy and from that too forgiving in my view and both should be reworked into more active and/ or skillbased sustain but i say that to most defensive core traitlines from most classes, not only Mesmers. Since the traitline rework pre HoT defensive core traitlines are power creeped as hell and have too less opportunity costs in dmg and they are too passively or too low skill ceiling designed. I cannot rly say if the planned patch will change that basic problem with the opportunity costs (i doubt it, because it seems everyhting will get same treatment without dealing with currently more or less op stuff differently), and as long as this basic problem with defensive core traitlines will not be fixed, you can be sure that the dmg will be more than enough even when using both defense lines and unfair higher compared to high risk builds (and for that GW2 rewards noobfriedlier builds more that high skilled builds without tons of mistake covers).

Yes Core Duelling/Illusion/Chaos will be a thing played with Scepter/ sword offhand or pistol and sword/torch for the block-evade and stealthspam in addition. Most likely hybrid than full condi, because the block counters, just as pistol do insane dmg on power and hybrid builds (during pistol dmg from bleeds and shatter condi dmg is nerfed again, too much nerfed for a full condi playstyle i think). Condi dmg from Clone autoattacks will still be an important and for that passive part of the condi or hybrid style. During Powermes builds will dissappear most likely completely, in particular on Mirage due to the overnerf with the trade of nonsense, and strong Thief builds in general.How can anyone be happy about that trend? All these wrong nerfs so many ppl asked for just lower our chances to meet a Mesmer not carried by a braindead build, just by deleting skillful builds with unnecessary and wrong directed overnerfs during trying to balance condibuilds at wrong places. Enjoy :joy:

We will continue to disagree yeah, mean I don't know why you are persuaded that chaos is a passive trailine while duelling and mirage have the same if not more passive traits in them in the current meta :Chaos : Metaphysical Rejuvenation, Illusionary Membrane, Auspicious anguish and Chaotic persistence.Mirage : Renewing oasis, mirage mantle, IH used defensively. Considering the 2 other minor are link to the spec particularity.Duelling : Critical infusion, Sharper images, Evasive mirror, Master Fencer, Deceptive Evasion.So apart basing your chaos crusade on feelings or I don't know what I don't understand a point about your argumentation against the only gameplay defining traitline left we have.

The damage from sword oh on a condi build ins't that good, I will better see sword/torch, scepter/pistol or staff,scepter/x. And condi damage from sword auto is.... null. That's why it should be more active globally.

Great now i need to google all those traits :joy:

You put a lot of traits in the same passive category while they are very different.
  1. There are passive traits i would call passive category 1, stuff like stunbreak and stabi proc on warrior defense line when eating a cc or the passive endure pain proc or the passive thief dodge trait or active passive procs like Necros Lesser Spinal Shivers. Those passives all do something automatically and the reward of it procs without the player needs to think about it at all. The game plays itself here.
  2. Then there are passive procs of effects like boons. Here you can differ between an active and a passive continuation. If a trait gives a passive proc of vigor then the vigor itself doesn't carry the player by simply existing. He needs to use this vigor (endurance) for active and reactive plays. He can waste the resource, the game doesn't play for itself. The passive proc of the boon only higher the resources for his active defensive play. That is common and active way of using traits to buff gameplay aspects of a build. If you say these traits are passive and should not exist, then there is no trait type left you can use for a skilled game^^ Other thing is a passive proc of aegis or protection. These boons have reward by themself, just by being active. There is no active gameplay linked to them, they provide facetanking (except of the skillful play to see, that you have aegis and don't need to dodge the next attack). If these boons get generated passive and random by the game, then neither the player nor his target can active work with them. They proc in a good moment and neutralzise a 10k hit and the player survives just by a lucky random proc or they proc in a useless moment. Passive generated and for that not active by player timed protection procs (for example when he expect a burst coming) also have no skillful play included, just by existence it enables the player to facetank more. He can be lucky that it passively procs right before a burst or not. Means there is a big difference between procing active gameplay resources (vigor, might, fury) passive or procing passive gameplay rewards passive providing low skill ceiling non reactive facetank gameplay. Last thing is comparable with the passive traits category no. 1. PU randomly procing aegis is like 100 times more passive and carrying, like passive passive than a passive proc of vigor what is passive active. Vigor proc just creates active gameplay resources and those traits are for that active and not carrying (as long as dodges overall cannot be chained to nearly perma dodging ofc). During a random aegis proc can cover massive player mistakes and slow reaction time and that in a way neither the player nor his opponent can tactical and active work with.
  3. Then there is stuff that happens on dodge. Dodgetraits are not per se passive, you have to use the dodge button. If a reward on dodge trait is mostly active or passive depends on how the reward is designed (i explained that several times with the difference between condi ambushes and power ambushes mostly from sword). Means when the effect is more based on effects the player can active work with (daze for active and reactive interrupts, timed blind on a key burst skill or big cc for active defensive gameplay, timed immob to prepare a burst etc.) to outplay opponents it is not rly passive. The player has to consider to use dodges well timed for the purpose of that reward and not only to defensive avoid attacks. That highers opportunity costs for dodges and makes dodge management harder and adds tactical deepness to the dodge management. Only when the dodge reward is too weak so that offensive dodges only for that reward are not rewarding enough, than it will become just a little passive side effect, no one would active work with. But at least then you can be sure that the effect is not strong enough to be power creeped and heavily carry the player (like Mirages reggen and protection after dodge traits). On the other side when the dodge reward (in particular when the dodge reward is only about dmg and not active effects to outplay opponents) is too strong then it can become passive. When the dmg is too high, that high, that dodging only defensive is rewarding enough it will also only be a passive side effect no one would dodge offensive for ever. The player gets too much rewarded out of the dodge trait with pure defensive dodges and for that doesn't need to think about offensive dodges to maximise rewards from the dodge trait. Means balancing dodge traits to make them mostly active and not carrying bad players and add skill ceiling is a very hard and difficult work. You need to find nearly perfect equilibrium between a not too weak dodge reward (or no one will ever waste a dodge offensive for that) and a too strong dodge reward (no one will ever use a pure offensive dodge because it is simply not needed to get the maximum reward out of the dodge trait as happens on Condimirage). Here on Condimirage the ambushes are only about dmg, no other effects which only have sense when timed well, and the dmg is also too high and for that mostly passive. Also you need to not limit the dodge resource too much so offensive outplay dodges become per se impossible. Then the dodge trait will be used as only passive side effect from pure defensive dodges too and all the skill ceiling and harder dodge management will be gone. Anet managed that balancing act very well for sword and gs on Mirage but not for the condi clone ambushes. And with the one dodge change they will destroy even what they did well on Mirage.
  4. Then you have passive dmg multiplier with different types. One type highers dmg on specific skills or linked to specific player actions. Means they have an element of active gameplay, the player needs to have them in mind and either do some specific action or use specific skills to get a reward from them. Then there are passive dmg traits just higher dmg on all skills. These traits are completely passive because they have no impact on the player behavior/playstyle. The player doesn't need to work with them, they are just there affecting all skills the same. If these rly passive dmg traits on all skills have too high dmg they lower skill ceiling and floor and carry the player who will get rewarded with higher dmg no matter how bad he plays the class in general and he will be rewarded with broken dmg will put the opponent into defense too easy (like instant max range 7k no clone mw with instant blink. A high value combo when using all dmg traits Mesmer has incl. rune and sigils and without any counterplay because full instant no animation from max range). In general passive dmg traits are basic trait types no game can live without and are no problem as long as they are not too strong. The more passive the application and the more skill-universal they are, the weaker they should be. Dmg traits also always have the need to actively hit your skills, they are just a support of your active actions, giving your active actions more value. Without active player actions they do nothing. Means passive dmg traits are not per se a low skill ceiling passive trait which should not exist. If they are too strong you can just nerf their effect and they are balanced and do not lower skill ceiling, not passive like category 1.

Lets now look at the traits you mentioned:For example Critical infusion, the application of vigor is passive true but you have to use that vigor active. That is nothing carrying compared to a random aegis block from PU can mean the difference between being killed by a 10k hit or not get hit at all or compared to a passive protection proc. That is not a trait forces passive (and non reactive facetank) gameplay, it is not a trait carrying the player by making the game play itself. This is a trait supports active defensive gameplay. it is active overall.Sharper images not passive. The player at least has to play the game and produce hits (it is not like every 10s bleed gets proced on the target as soons as player is infight even when the player itself is afk). This is just a dmg multiplier, it could be designed more active but in the end just a condi dmg mulitplier. When not too strong nothing will carry the player by itself.Evasive Mirror is a dodge trait and for that not passive category 1. It is also something a player can active work with (for example it can have more value to waste a dodge into nothing or for a low dmg attack to then reflect and not dodge a high dmg projectile for the extra dmg). You also can waste it by panic dodging a projectile effect while having reflect up. But because that reflect has a big delay (procs after the dodge is finished) you barely can use it that reactive and most projectile classes like Ranger have spammy combos make it worth to dodge one projectile and reflect the next attack automatically (like the longbow 2+3 combo). This trait is overall more on the passive side but far away from being as passive and broken as category 1 skills (for example PU random aegis proc or thief auto-dodge trait). I never was a fan of that trait, still not such an universal carry and with more counterplay (not randomly proced) like aegis from PU.Master Fencer is not passive aside from the boon proc. Good player knows when they get fury and will use big skills or burst combos timed during that fury uptime. Means a good player will get way more reward out of that than a bad player. It influences gameplay behavior and in general fury has no falue without the player actively pressing buttons. Its more or less a dmg multiplier linked to a specific situation a player can active work with and will get more rewarded when he actively work with it and change his gameplay depending on having fury up or not.Deceptive Evasion is pretty much the most active dodge trait in the game. You get a reward on an active button use, adds opportunity costs and harder dodge management and then the reward even needs to be used for something impactful by another button use (shatters). Superiority Complex is way more passive and lower skill ceiling than Deceptive Evasion. But both are far away from being as passive and player carrying than anything in Chaosline, both are just simple dmg multiplier with DE being way more active and tactical and more utility based than dmg based compared to Superiority Complex.

I agree to Mirage mantle is a more passive dodge trait, not a fan of it, but duration is kind of short, means not that power creeped. Mirage as traitline overall has way less access to boons than Chaosline with way less boonduration. IH is a dodge trait, per se not passive, depends on the ambush skills what comes out of it. Condi ambushes are passive and op not IH. The majority of skills in Mirage are active. You have no category 1 passives in it. No random aegis blocks no boonspam on buttons you spam for different reasons (except the short reggen or protection after each dodge). Renewing Oasis is also more of a passive dodge trait (no one would waste a dodge only for the reggen proc, at least barely, could save your life when running around with a burn stack on low hp it can mean live or die when you dodge only for the reggen and condi dmg reduction). But not powercreeped. Also reggen barely will carry low reaction time and facetanking key burst skills. Passive reggen procts are the least problem in terms of passive carry and needs to be accompanied by a lot of other passive facetank sustain to carry bad players remarkable. That is only given when combining Mirage with Chaosline. Mirage whole nature is build around active dodging and getting dmg and sustain from hat. You can spec it kind of passive and noobcarry when going for reggen and prot on dodge and stunbreak on dodge. This would be a similar passive low skill ceiling way of playing Mirage but still not powercreeped in the boon access (EM stunbreak is broken tho). But the most common traitchoice with Desert Distortion and IH is pretty active and high skill ceiling (at least on power). During Chaos is per se simple passive or at least low skill ceiling facetank sustain with boon procs by either braindead spamming skills for other purposes or simple passive random procs category 1 worthy.

Chaosline: Minor traits passive procs category 1 at specific points, adept traits not rly passive just op in its rewards or low skill ceiling facetank sustain, not used (Illusionary Defense). Auspicious Anguish half of it completely passive category 1, the distortion part is active and kind of skillful the whole trait overall just op in its reward and eleminates the last weakness Chaosline had (condis). Chaotic Transference low skill ceiling facetank sustain, Chaotic Dampening one totally passive and one active part. Overall low skill ceiling facetank sustain from protection and lower cds for less punishment of skillwaste on a sustainy facetank weapon for even more boon spam carry. Chaotic Interruption, active basic mechanic highly skillbased but either broken in its reward deleting all skilled aspect of that trait (old CI) or unused now (and too random in its reward will prevent active and tactical uses from the player and his opponent). PU completely passive procs during stealthspam abuse, by design a broken low skill ceiling trait rewarding a per se low skillceiling defense mechanic (stealth) even more, also provides low effort bait mechanic by simply staelthstacking instead active outplaying opponents defensive skills, random procs means neither the player nor opponents can work with it tactical. Random Aegis and protection are passive passive procs near category 1. Bountiful Disillusionment boons on click so not category 1 passive but still non of the boons have impact on the shatter behavior, they become a passive side effect from shattering for other purposes (or you just spam the shatters on cd for the boons because shatters are useless on condibuilds for their main purpose of applying condi dmg), either way it is just stacking and spamming boons without the player needs to think about it (just like heal on shatter in Inspiration btw). The only boon you would waste a shatter for to actively and reactive counter opponents moves is stabi to cover a stomp or rezz or a cast of a skill to avoid a cc. Funny that the strongest boon on that trait is the only one can lead into active and reactive uses from shatters just to proc that boon as reaction to opponents behavior. Aside form that: just braindead spam to stack boons with a power creeped long duration. Means during you can spec Mirage active and high skill ceiling you can't do that by using Chaosline at all, not even if you would want to. The only skillful and active things in Chaos are half of Auspicious Anguish but it is overall op and you have a massive passive carry included or CI what could be active and skilled but the reward is kitten and too random for active and skilled uses and tactical plays from the Mesmer or his opponent. No matter what traits you pick in Chaos, the moment you use that traitline you are carried and the build has lower skill ceiling. During traits in Duelling/ Mirage are per se less passive or less power creeped and the few you could consider more passive and lower skill ceiling can be completely avoided by using other clearly active trait alternatives in the traitline (like using blind on f3 instead reflect after dodge, using Desert Distortion over protection on dodge, using IH over EM on power builds).

Chaos beats Duelling and Mirage in its passive and noobcarry low skillceiling nature by far. Is also power creeped in its boonspam defense/offense (why even offensive boons in a defensive traitline?) and the overall rewards the traitline gives. It provides way more non reactive facetank sustain even on active skill activation, and brainless spam from skills for non reactive perma self buffs with boons by simple on-cd-spam of skills, means even the active traits in Chaos have still low skill ceiling.

One thought about Arcane Thievery i had: I think you are right with what you say, when you imply that Arcane Thievery is meant as condi remove in the first place. But i don't think it is meant like that. It is an on hit skill for the most parts, to selfbuff with boons also by on hit boonsteal and doing dmg by condi transfer. For a good condiremove it would be way to strong with all the side rewards. If you want a simple and effective condi remove Arcane should not be your choice. And for that i think it would be fair to give this on hit skill, that is meant to be a reactive skill, a longer cast time and dodgeable animation. Defensive condi remove is not the purpose of the skill i think, it is more an offensive skill and for that should be dodgeable by animation and casttime. If Anet thinks, they want Mesmer to have such a strong skill as useful condi remove they could change quickness into resistance and give it casttime as you suggested but maybe would be power creeped op then. No clue...

I'm loving how you argue that the traitline you consider as skilled contains few passives but it's fine because they are little efficient. While you take care to don't talk about the passives efficiency in the traitline you want to nerf :) .

I disagree about you opinion on cat 2. Particulary about vigor : sure the player have to push a key to active an evade. But you miss the point that there is skills who give vigor when you click it and vigor who auto-proc from whatever. Mean pushing a utility or weapon skill who give x sec vigor is different from having vigor on crit during normal rotation. Note that actually, most meta-build have a good vigor/endurance generation while not having to pop it actively. Mean it's more a "I do normal rotation and I get vigor as a cherry" than a "I use this skill to get vigor". Same for aegis and protection, you have skill and combo who are dedicated to pop it and there is ways to auto-proc it. It's weird to consider that a combo or dedicated skill whose only goal is to get protection is at the same level as an auto-proc protection. (Basically protection on chaos armor combo is different from protection when you reach 75%.)Guys will prefer BD over PU in the current condi mirage meta. Then we can discuss about the efficiency of having 1/5 chance of auto-proc aegis for a GM. (And about rng in general.).

I disagree about cat 3 too. Of course dodgetraits are passive, they remove clone death trait just because of that... Mean with or without the on dodge effect, you will push your dodge button defensively. The question is not how strong it is but the fact that with or without it you will dodge. There is only plus to have effect on this because all the combat system is around it. Mean look at war evade, look at pre-nerf Holo bomb evade, look at mesmer old clone death, look at current IH & miragecloak. Than when the effect become really important it start to be interesting to burn evade offensively and we go to the active effect but it's only a little part of the base concept of evades. You will normally do way more defensive evade than offensive (as long as you haven't god positionning with +1ing everytimes.). Even considering your sword evade, it will be more used defensively to evade big attacks than to rupt the big attacks because you have more value evading something launching than trying to anticipate an attack that the opponent can fake, particulary considering the 1 sec delay before the CC. Basically using offensively sword ambush is in a situation where you want to pressure a low health target or you are +1 someone.So there is 2 view to consider about dodgetraits but most of time I put them in passive style.One more example : the protection on mirage dodge : you really think that a player will think "I will dodge to get protection during 1 sec to mitigate next incoming damage.". No the true is : "I take this trait because other are bad and it give me little more sustain on dodge".Mirages reggen and protection after dodge traits are ok because they have a bad duration while 3 sec protection on a 15 sec CD is passively op in chaos... cough cough. you know that Mirage traitline give near the same passive regen and protection than chaos ? under vigor during 15 sec : 3 sec protection on mirage, 8 sec regen. Versus 3 and 10 for chaos. And the more the fight duration increase, the more mirage go ahead chaos.

How can you find the GS ambush balancing fine while saying the Staff ambush is passive while they work exactly the same : you evade, your illusions does damage. The only difference is between the non-ambush phases where staff clone auto put condi. Moreover, Staff ambush are way easier to evade than GS ambush in this regard GS ambush can be considered more viable than Staff ambush.

Agree about cat4. Egostim is lazy concept like superiority complex. While we have glamour untraited since....

So about what I mentionned :Critical infusion is IMO passive like explained in the what I don't agree with your cat2. (that said it's an overnerf trait compared to other class.)Sharper image is, you will not use a skill to inflict bleed particulary, you will pop illusions btw and it come like a cherry That"s the difference with duelist's discipline where you have to use pistol skill.Evasive mirror is too much random to really be active mean you evade the first key skill from the opponent, it proc, then he just have to pewpewting you. It's basically what happend in a condi mrage mirror duel : the bad one will engaging on pistol, making the opponent to proc the mirror. While the good one will engaging in staff, then swap pistol to bursting the opponent. It's pure passive and opponent dependant, you can't actively use it if you aren't facing an oister.( Joke history : The best part about this trait is that the more it's nerf, the better PU get efficient because before with reflect on manipulation for example you shouldn't proc reflect before casting PU or you should brun an evade to nullify the reflect. Yeah PU was more skilled before :) )Master fencer is passive, you really think even good players will stop pressuring the opponent to not proc it because there will potentially be a windows to more burts later ? No, moreover if the opponent heal or you take damage, it will not proc and it will crap your prepatation. What happen in reality, is that players do their normal rotation and try to maintain the highest fury uptime as they can with this autoproc.Deceptive Evasion is passive, last time is way really used actively was during vanilla to pop clone then F1 shatter more damage. You will never currently offensively pop a clone to shatter. it's just a capital gain of basic mesmer mechanics you give more main ressources when you dodge (and put more pressure with clone auto/IH.).

About mirage vs chaos I already answer in the why I don't agree on the end of cat3 answer but basically I think you are viewing mirage line in pink and chaos line in dark while they are pretty similar (Mean you are contradicting yoursefl on some explanations..). I will add that has you know I consider more PU as a gameplay definind trait (what we lack.) than as a op passive trait. (Mean is mesmer didn't get this passive damage modifier from egotism and superiority complex, core burst should be bad and PU come to a niche again.) I prefer 100 time having a niche trait than one more dead trait.Chaotic dampening is active, come on, because it give protection it's passive ?? Come on it's more active than even most traits in domination in your skilled builds.Bountiful Disillusionment currently is more active than passive currently as you will using f2 to maintain vigor and stab to counter CC (it's not the chronobunker period.).About staff : it does near zero direct damage so hopufully it proc boons and condi. Mean having a weapon used only to positionning with phase retreat isn't fun huh ?

So no, IMO chaos didn't beat duelling and mirage in terms of passive. It's at the same level of mirage and more active than duelling.

About At, sincerely currently it's the only condiclear in the condimirage metabuild and if there weren't weaver and ranger in PvP I prefer way more MoR efficiency. But it's the only tool who can make you win against weaver and give you much help against rangers.

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@viquing.8254 said:

@bravan.3876 said:We maybe should start to use pm, no one except you and me will read our wall of text discussion anyway i guess.I think it's interesting to everyone to see other points of views.

@bravan.3876 said:Inspiration is not dead because bad or because it needs any skill to use.Inspiration is dead because it is bad...Main reason to take inspiration was for the condiclear. Now even if you remove chaos, people will choose just one utility instead of this line.It's supposed to be a line around heal and sustain.Just look at the traits :
  • Mender's purity is only good with Mantra of recovery which isn't used since they revome the 3rd charge and nerf centaures rune proc on cast.
  • Medic's feedback is average.
  • Restorative Mantras is meh, even with full healing power.
  • Sympathetic Visage is average but not reliable. (Basically it remove the passive auto-proc of poison and weakness from other class.).
  • Inspiring distortion is bad.
  • Warden's feedback is meh (more link to focus being so-so.).
  • Restorative illusions is good at heal/condi clear but destroy your damage output or you live better by putting pressure on opponent than with healing skills use.
  • Protected phantasms is bad.
  • Healing prism is bad.
  • Mental defense is very bad.
  • Illusionary inspiration is bad.
  • Blurred inscriptions is good on half signet, bad on the other half.

Basically the main reason to take inspiration is if you want to play around signet because they move the trait in this line.Mean at it's core it's supposed to be a line which main orientations are around phantasms and healing allies. Phantasm play is dead and healing allies is... Call me the day you see a mesmer healing in PvP instead of FB/ele.

In my view they should have nerfed Chaos and Inspiration into the ground and not Mirage tbh. Those traitlines always caused the balance problems, they do it on core builds, they did it on each Chronobuild that was broken and for that meta and they did it on Mirage. They overperform and make Mesmer way easier to play no matter what spec. They are the root of all evil ever coming from Mesmermeta and always were. Not even Mirage is op without Chaoline used, during Chaosline can turn even a power core build into brainless noobfriendly stuff that also i can play.

The Mirage or Coremesmer builds we will see in PvP after patch will be just as braindead and annoying to fight or even more cancer then the current condimeta build. And skilled Mirage builds, not carried by Chaos or Inspiration (or probably even both) will not be seen anymore, they are overnerfed as a spin off from "not meta but usable hardmode for masochists" to "absolutely unplayable".

1) No because on condi core chances are high you will choose illusion and you will land more shatter condi application instead of using ambush.

You can choose illusions because on core you can take Inspiration+Chaos in addition during Mirage needs Duelling (Deceptive Evasion) to work with IH. And funny but 99% of the player in this game cannot play current "beyond broken Condimirage" with 2 dodges without Chaosline and even less can play Powermirage. It might be more active in the way it applies condis (not rly the normal autoattacks from clones are still op) but it will be way waaaay more braindead in terms of surviving. Also there will be no opportunity costs for dodges what exacerbates the dodge management in Mirage. No matter if Mirage or Core, it will be more of a bunker build than a condi build. Maybe a hybrid or power bunker amulet will be choosen over that (condishatter gets nerfs again, rofl). I bet both legs that we will not see a skilled Coremesmer or Mirage build in meta after patch.If you choose Inspiration+Chaos you will do too little damage to do something. Because contrary to what people think, choosing utility or sustain traitline cost you damage. And I don't think pure mesmer tank will be viable post patch. Condi core will more likely be around duelling/chaos/illusions.And stop considering core mesmer has only and should have 3 traitline please.

2) I want more diversity than one power one-shot build, thanks.Sure sadly that diversity on power builds is exactly what will be killed by the next patch. Or do you expect to see any Powermirage using only Domination/Duelling or Illusion aside from Mirageline after patch? With only one dodge available? I doubt that.Powermirage isn't viable currently in a thief meta, like power mesmer in general when in this kind of meta and chances are high that the meta around thief will continue post patch so I don't see glasscanon mesmer being well represented in game.

Inspiration is not a good line for conquest, i always agreed to that, it is only good in carrying low skilled player to survive longer than they should. And for that the line is still pretty good. Just that Chaos can do both: Carry the player and being useful for the side node job and for that useful for the team as well. And because of the main problem in GW2, the unbalance between sustain and dmg (all the builds that have high sustain but still way too much dmg, and yes Mesmer too on builds with either Chaos or Inspiration or even with both traitlines), we always had semi bunker or even full bunker Mesmerbuilds in Meta still doing good dmg, condi or power, compared to high risk no reward builds. As said we will never agree about Chaos and Inspiration, but for me from an inside and outside perspective (playing vs Mesmer on other classes and playing Metamesmer myself) i hate those 2 traitlines (just as i hate defense traitline on Warrior etc.), not only is it annoying to play vs Mesmers using one or even two of these traitlines, they make Mesmer that easy and mistake resistent to play, that even i can play them on high PvP lvl. Nothing i ever will have respect for. Just my view and we should agree to disagree here because that view i will never change.

Chaos is too passive and forgiving, Inspiration is too non reactive spammy and from that too forgiving in my view and both should be reworked into more active and/ or skillbased sustain but i say that to most defensive core traitlines from most classes, not only Mesmers. Since the traitline rework pre HoT defensive core traitlines are power creeped as hell and have too less opportunity costs in dmg and they are too passively or too low skill ceiling designed. I cannot rly say if the planned patch will change that basic problem with the opportunity costs (i doubt it, because it seems everyhting will get same treatment without dealing with currently more or less op stuff differently), and as long as this basic problem with defensive core traitlines will not be fixed, you can be sure that the dmg will be more than enough even when using both defense lines and unfair higher compared to high risk builds (and for that GW2 rewards noobfriedlier builds more that high skilled builds without tons of mistake covers).

Yes Core Duelling/Illusion/Chaos will be a thing played with Scepter/ sword offhand or pistol and sword/torch for the block-evade and stealthspam in addition. Most likely hybrid than full condi, because the block counters, just as pistol do insane dmg on power and hybrid builds (during pistol dmg from bleeds and shatter condi dmg is nerfed again, too much nerfed for a full condi playstyle i think). Condi dmg from Clone autoattacks will still be an important and for that passive part of the condi or hybrid style. During Powermes builds will dissappear most likely completely, in particular on Mirage due to the overnerf with the trade of nonsense, and strong Thief builds in general.How can anyone be happy about that trend? All these wrong nerfs so many ppl asked for just lower our chances to meet a Mesmer not carried by a braindead build, just by deleting skillful builds with unnecessary and wrong directed overnerfs during trying to balance condibuilds at wrong places. Enjoy :joy:

We will continue to disagree yeah, mean I don't know why you are persuaded that chaos is a passive trailine while duelling and mirage have the same if not more passive traits in them in the current meta :Chaos : Metaphysical Rejuvenation, Illusionary Membrane, Auspicious anguish and Chaotic persistence.Mirage : Renewing oasis, mirage mantle, IH used defensively. Considering the 2 other minor are link to the spec particularity.Duelling : Critical infusion, Sharper images, Evasive mirror, Master Fencer, Deceptive Evasion.So apart basing your chaos crusade on feelings or I don't know what I don't understand a point about your argumentation against the only gameplay defining traitline left we have.

The damage from sword oh on a condi build ins't that good, I will better see sword/torch, scepter/pistol or staff,scepter/x. And condi damage from sword auto is.... null. That's why it should be more active globally.

Great now i need to google all those traits :joy:

You put a lot of traits in the same passive category while they are very different.
  1. There are passive traits i would call passive category 1, stuff like stunbreak and stabi proc on warrior defense line when eating a cc or the passive endure pain proc or the passive thief dodge trait or active passive procs like Necros Lesser Spinal Shivers. Those passives all do something automatically and the reward of it procs without the player needs to think about it at all. The game plays itself here.
  2. Then there are passive procs of effects like boons. Here you can differ between an active and a passive continuation. If a trait gives a passive proc of vigor then the vigor itself doesn't carry the player by simply existing. He needs to use this vigor (endurance) for active and reactive plays. He can waste the resource, the game doesn't play for itself. The passive proc of the boon only higher the resources for his active defensive play. That is common and active way of using traits to buff gameplay aspects of a build. If you say these traits are passive and should not exist, then there is no trait type left you can use for a skilled game^^ Other thing is a passive proc of aegis or protection. These boons have reward by themself, just by being active. There is no active gameplay linked to them, they provide facetanking (except of the skillful play to see, that you have aegis and don't need to dodge the next attack). If these boons get generated passive and random by the game, then neither the player nor his target can active work with them. They proc in a good moment and neutralzise a 10k hit and the player survives just by a lucky random proc or they proc in a useless moment. Passive generated and for that not active by player timed protection procs (for example when he expect a burst coming) also have no skillful play included, just by existence it enables the player to facetank more. He can be lucky that it passively procs right before a burst or not. Means there is a big difference between procing active gameplay resources (vigor, might, fury) passive or procing passive gameplay rewards passive providing low skill ceiling non reactive facetank gameplay. Last thing is comparable with the passive traits category no. 1. PU randomly procing aegis is like 100 times more passive and carrying, like passive passive than a passive proc of vigor what is passive active. Vigor proc just creates active gameplay resources and those traits are for that active and not carrying (as long as dodges overall cannot be chained to nearly perma dodging ofc). During a random aegis proc can cover massive player mistakes and slow reaction time and that in a way neither the player nor his opponent can tactical and active work with.
  3. Then there is stuff that happens on dodge. Dodgetraits are not per se passive, you have to use the dodge button. If a reward on dodge trait is mostly active or passive depends on how the reward is designed (i explained that several times with the difference between condi ambushes and power ambushes mostly from sword). Means when the effect is more based on effects the player can active work with (daze for active and reactive interrupts, timed blind on a key burst skill or big cc for active defensive gameplay, timed immob to prepare a burst etc.) to outplay opponents it is not rly passive. The player has to consider to use dodges well timed for the purpose of that reward and not only to defensive avoid attacks. That highers opportunity costs for dodges and makes dodge management harder and adds tactical deepness to the dodge management. Only when the dodge reward is too weak so that offensive dodges only for that reward are not rewarding enough, than it will become just a little passive side effect, no one would active work with. But at least then you can be sure that the effect is not strong enough to be power creeped and heavily carry the player (like Mirages reggen and protection after dodge traits). On the other side when the dodge reward (in particular when the dodge reward is only about dmg and not active effects to outplay opponents) is too strong then it can become passive. When the dmg is too high, that high, that dodging only defensive is rewarding enough it will also only be a passive side effect no one would dodge offensive for ever. The player gets too much rewarded out of the dodge trait with pure defensive dodges and for that doesn't need to think about offensive dodges to maximise rewards from the dodge trait. Means balancing dodge traits to make them mostly active and not carrying bad players and add skill ceiling is a very hard and difficult work. You need to find nearly perfect equilibrium between a not too weak dodge reward (or no one will ever waste a dodge offensive for that) and a too strong dodge reward (no one will ever use a pure offensive dodge because it is simply not needed to get the maximum reward out of the dodge trait as happens on Condimirage). Here on Condimirage the ambushes are only about dmg, no other effects which only have sense when timed well, and the dmg is also too high and for that mostly passive. Also you need to not limit the dodge resource too much so offensive outplay dodges become per se impossible. Then the dodge trait will be used as only passive side effect from pure defensive dodges too and all the skill ceiling and harder dodge management will be gone. Anet managed that balancing act very well for sword and gs on Mirage but not for the condi clone ambushes. And with the one dodge change they will destroy even what they did well on Mirage.
  4. Then you have passive dmg multiplier with different types. One type highers dmg on specific skills or linked to specific player actions. Means they have an element of active gameplay, the player needs to have them in mind and either do some specific action or use specific skills to get a reward from them. Then there are passive dmg traits just higher dmg on all skills. These traits are completely passive because they have no impact on the player behavior/playstyle. The player doesn't need to work with them, they are just there affecting all skills the same. If these rly passive dmg traits on all skills have too high dmg they lower skill ceiling and floor and carry the player who will get rewarded with higher dmg no matter how bad he plays the class in general and he will be rewarded with broken dmg will put the opponent into defense too easy (like instant max range 7k no clone mw with instant blink. A high value combo when using all dmg traits Mesmer has incl. rune and sigils and without any counterplay because full instant no animation from max range). In general passive dmg traits are basic trait types no game can live without and are no problem as long as they are not too strong. The more passive the application and the more skill-universal they are, the weaker they should be. Dmg traits also always have the need to actively hit your skills, they are just a support of your active actions, giving your active actions more value. Without active player actions they do nothing. Means passive dmg traits are not per se a low skill ceiling passive trait which should not exist. If they are too strong you can just nerf their effect and they are balanced and do not lower skill ceiling, not passive like category 1.

Lets now look at the traits you mentioned:For example Critical infusion, the application of vigor is passive true but you have to use that vigor active. That is nothing carrying compared to a random aegis block from PU can mean the difference between being killed by a 10k hit or not get hit at all or compared to a passive protection proc. That is not a trait forces passive (and non reactive facetank) gameplay, it is not a trait carrying the player by making the game play itself. This is a trait supports active defensive gameplay. it is active overall.Sharper images not passive. The player at least has to play the game and produce hits (it is not like every 10s bleed gets proced on the target as soons as player is infight even when the player itself is afk). This is just a dmg multiplier, it could be designed more active but in the end just a condi dmg mulitplier. When not too strong nothing will carry the player by itself.Evasive Mirror is a dodge trait and for that not passive category 1. It is also something a player can active work with (for example it can have more value to waste a dodge into nothing or for a low dmg attack to then reflect and not dodge a high dmg projectile for the extra dmg). You also can waste it by panic dodging a projectile effect while having reflect up. But because that reflect has a big delay (procs after the dodge is finished) you barely can use it that reactive and most projectile classes like Ranger have spammy combos make it worth to dodge one projectile and reflect the next attack automatically (like the longbow 2+3 combo). This trait is overall more on the passive side but far away from being as passive and broken as category 1 skills (for example PU random aegis proc or thief auto-dodge trait). I never was a fan of that trait, still not such an universal carry and with more counterplay (not randomly proced) like aegis from PU.Master Fencer is not passive aside from the boon proc. Good player knows when they get fury and will use big skills or burst combos timed during that fury uptime. Means a good player will get way more reward out of that than a bad player. It influences gameplay behavior and in general fury has no falue without the player actively pressing buttons. Its more or less a dmg multiplier linked to a specific situation a player can active work with and will get more rewarded when he actively work with it and change his gameplay depending on having fury up or not.Deceptive Evasion is pretty much the most active dodge trait in the game. You get a reward on an active button use, adds opportunity costs and harder dodge management and then the reward even needs to be used for something impactful by another button use (shatters). Superiority Complex is way more passive and lower skill ceiling than Deceptive Evasion. But both are far away from being as passive and player carrying than anything in Chaosline, both are just simple dmg multiplier with DE being way more active and tactical and more utility based than dmg based compared to Superiority Complex.

I agree to Mirage mantle is a more passive dodge trait, not a fan of it, but duration is kind of short, means not that power creeped. Mirage as traitline overall has way less access to boons than Chaosline with way less boonduration. IH is a dodge trait, per se not passive, depends on the ambush skills what comes out of it. Condi ambushes are passive and op not IH. The majority of skills in Mirage are active. You have no category 1 passives in it. No random aegis blocks no boonspam on buttons you spam for different reasons (except the short reggen or protection after each dodge). Renewing Oasis is also more of a passive dodge trait (no one would waste a dodge only for the reggen proc, at least barely, could save your life when running around with a burn stack on low hp it can mean live or die when you dodge only for the reggen and condi dmg reduction). But not powercreeped. Also reggen barely will carry low reaction time and facetanking key burst skills. Passive reggen procts are the least problem in terms of passive carry and needs to be accompanied by a lot of other passive facetank sustain to carry bad players remarkable. That is only given when combining Mirage with Chaosline. Mirage whole nature is build around active dodging and getting dmg and sustain from hat. You can spec it kind of passive and noobcarry when going for reggen and prot on dodge and stunbreak on dodge. This would be a similar passive low skill ceiling way of playing Mirage but still not powercreeped in the boon access (EM stunbreak is broken tho). But the most common traitchoice with Desert Distortion and IH is pretty active and high skill ceiling (at least on power). During Chaos is per se simple passive or at least low skill ceiling facetank sustain with boon procs by either braindead spamming skills for other purposes or simple passive random procs category 1 worthy.

Chaosline: Minor traits passive procs category 1 at specific points, adept traits not rly passive just op in its rewards or low skill ceiling facetank sustain, not used (Illusionary Defense). Auspicious Anguish half of it completely passive category 1, the distortion part is active and kind of skillful the whole trait overall just op in its reward and eleminates the last weakness Chaosline had (condis). Chaotic Transference low skill ceiling facetank sustain, Chaotic Dampening one totally passive and one active part. Overall low skill ceiling facetank sustain from protection and lower cds for less punishment of skillwaste on a sustainy facetank weapon for even more boon spam carry. Chaotic Interruption, active basic mechanic highly skillbased but either broken in its reward deleting all skilled aspect of that trait (old CI) or unused now (and too random in its reward will prevent active and tactical uses from the player and his opponent). PU completely passive procs during stealthspam abuse, by design a broken low skill ceiling trait rewarding a per se low skillceiling defense mechanic (stealth) even more, also provides low effort bait mechanic by simply staelthstacking instead active outplaying opponents defensive skills, random procs means neither the player nor opponents can work with it tactical. Random Aegis and protection are passive passive procs near category 1. Bountiful Disillusionment boons on click so not category 1 passive but still non of the boons have impact on the shatter behavior, they become a passive side effect from shattering for other purposes (or you just spam the shatters on cd for the boons because shatters are useless on condibuilds for their main purpose of applying condi dmg), either way it is just stacking and spamming boons without the player needs to think about it (just like heal on shatter in Inspiration btw). The only boon you would waste a shatter for to actively and reactive counter opponents moves is stabi to cover a stomp or rezz or a cast of a skill to avoid a cc. Funny that the strongest boon on that trait is the only one can lead into active and reactive uses from shatters just to proc that boon as reaction to opponents behavior. Aside form that: just braindead spam to stack boons with a power creeped long duration. Means during you can spec Mirage active and high skill ceiling you can't do that by using Chaosline at all, not even if you would want to. The only skillful and active things in Chaos are half of Auspicious Anguish but it is overall op and you have a massive passive carry included or CI what could be active and skilled but the reward is kitten and too random for active and skilled uses and tactical plays from the Mesmer or his opponent. No matter what traits you pick in Chaos, the moment you use that traitline you are carried and the build has lower skill ceiling. During traits in Duelling/ Mirage are per se less passive or less power creeped and the few you could consider more passive and lower skill ceiling can be completely avoided by using other clearly active trait alternatives in the traitline (like using blind on f3 instead reflect after dodge, using Desert Distortion over protection on dodge, using IH over EM on power builds).

Chaos beats Duelling and Mirage in its passive and noobcarry low skillceiling nature by far. Is also power creeped in its boonspam defense/offense (why even offensive boons in a defensive traitline?) and the overall rewards the traitline gives. It provides way more non reactive facetank sustain even on active skill activation, and brainless spam from skills for non reactive perma self buffs with boons by simple on-cd-spam of skills, means even the active traits in Chaos have still low skill ceiling.

One thought about Arcane Thievery i had: I think you are right with what you say, when you imply that Arcane Thievery is meant as condi remove in the first place. But i don't think it is meant like that. It is an on hit skill for the most parts, to selfbuff with boons also by on hit boonsteal and doing dmg by condi transfer. For a good condiremove it would be way to strong with all the side rewards. If you want a simple and effective condi remove Arcane should not be your choice. And for that i think it would be fair to give this on hit skill, that is meant to be a reactive skill, a longer cast time and dodgeable animation. Defensive condi remove is not the purpose of the skill i think, it is more an offensive skill and for that should be dodgeable by animation and casttime. If Anet thinks, they want Mesmer to have such a strong skill as useful condi remove they could change quickness into resistance and give it casttime as you suggested but maybe would be power creeped op then. No clue...

I'm loving how you argue that the traitline you consider as skilled contains few passives but it's fine because they are little efficient. While you take care to don't talk about the passives efficiency in the traitline you want to nerf :) .

I disagree about you opinion on cat 2. Particulary about vigor : sure the player have to push a key to active an evade. But you miss the point that there is skills who give vigor when you click it and vigor who auto-proc from whatever. Mean pushing a utility or weapon skill who give x sec vigor is different from having vigor on crit during normal rotation. Note that actually, most meta-build have a good vigor/endurance generation while not having to pop it actively. Mean it's more a "I do normal rotation and I get vigor as a cherry" than a "I use this skill to get vigor". Same for aegis and protection, you have skill and combo who are dedicated to pop it and there is ways to auto-proc it. It's weird to consider that a combo or dedicated skill whose only goal is to get protection is at the same level as an auto-proc protection. (Basically protection on chaos armor combo is different from protection when you reach 75%.)Guys will prefer BD over PU in the current condi mirage meta. Then we can discuss about the efficiency of having 1/5 chance of auto-proc aegis for a GM. (And about rng in general.).

I disagree about cat 3 too. Of course dodgetraits are passive, they remove clone death trait just because of that... Mean with or without the on dodge effect, you will push your dodge button defensively. The question is not how strong it is but the fact that with or without it you will dodge. There is only plus to have effect on this because all the combat system is around it. Mean look at war evade, look at pre-nerf Holo bomb evade, look at mesmer old clone death, look at current IH & miragecloak. Than when the effect become really important it start to be interesting to burn evade offensively and we go to the active effect but it's only a little part of the base concept of evades. You will normally do way more defensive evade than offensive (as long as you haven't god positionning with +1ing everytimes.). Even considering your sword evade, it will be more used defensively to evade big attacks than to rupt the big attacks because you have more value evading something launching than trying to anticipate an attack that the opponent can fake, particulary considering the 1 sec delay before the CC. Basically using offensively sword ambush is in a situation where you want to pressure a low health target or you are +1 someone.So there is 2 view to consider about dodgetraits but most of time I put them in passive style.One more example : the protection on mirage dodge : you really think that a player will think "I will dodge to get protection during 1 sec to mitigate next incoming damage.". No the true is : "I take this trait because other are bad and it give me little more sustain on dodge".Mirages reggen and protection after dodge traits are ok because they have a bad duration while 3 sec protection on a 15 sec CD is passively op in chaos... cough cough. you know that Mirage traitline give near the same passive regen and protection than chaos ? under vigor during 15 sec : 3 sec protection on mirage, 8 sec regen. Versus 3 and 10 for chaos. And the more the fight duration increase, the more mirage go ahead chaos.

How can you find the GS ambush balancing fine while saying the Staff ambush is passive while they work exactly the same : you evade, your illusions does damage. The only difference is between the non-ambush phases where staff clone auto put condi. Moreover, Staff ambush are way easier to evade than GS ambush in this regard GS ambush can be considered more viable than Staff ambush.

Agree about cat4. Egostim is lazy concept like superiority complex. While we have glamour untraited since....

So about what I mentionned :Critical infusion is IMO passive like explained in the what I don't agree with your cat2. (that said it's an overnerf trait compared to other class.)Sharper image is, you will not use a skill to inflict bleed particulary, you will pop illusions btw and it come like a cherry That"s the difference with duelist's discipline where you have to use pistol skill.Evasive mirror is too much random to really be active mean you evade the first key skill from the opponent, it proc, then he just have to pewpewting you. It's basically what happend in a condi mrage mirror duel : the bad one will engaging on pistol, making the opponent to proc the mirror. While the good one will engaging in staff, then swap pistol to bursting the opponent. It's pure passive and opponent dependant, you can't actively use it if you aren't facing an oister.( Joke history : The best part about this trait is that the more it's nerf, the better PU get efficient because before with reflect on manipulation for example you shouldn't proc reflect before casting PU or you should brun an evade to nullify the reflect. Yeah PU was more skilled before :) )Master fencer is passive, you really think even good players will stop pressuring the opponent to not proc it because there will potentially be a windows to more burts later ? No, moreover if the opponent heal or you take damage, it will not proc and it will kitten your prepatation. What happen in reality, is that players do their normal rotation and try to maintain the highest fury uptime as they can with this autoproc.Deceptive Evasion is passive, last time is way really used actively was during vanilla to pop clone then F1 shatter more damage. You will never currently offensively pop a clone to shatter. it's just a capital gain of basic mesmer mechanics you give more main ressources when you dodge (and put more pressure with clone auto/IH.).

About mirage vs chaos I already answer in the why I don't agree on the end of cat3 answer but basically I think you are viewing mirage line in pink and chaos line in dark while they are pretty similar (Mean you are contradicting yoursefl on some explanations..). I will add that has you know I consider more PU as a gameplay definind trait (what we lack.) than as a op passive trait. (Mean is mesmer didn't get this passive damage modifier from egotism and superiority complex, core burst should be bad and PU come to a niche again.) I prefer 100 time having a niche trait than one more dead trait.Chaotic dampening is active, come on, because it give protection it's passive ?? Come on it's more active than even most traits in domination in your skilled builds.Bountiful Disillusionment currently is more active than passive currently as you will using f2 to maintain vigor and stab to counter CC (it's not the chronobunker period.).About staff : it does near zero direct damage so hopufully it proc boons and condi. Mean having a weapon used only to positionning with phase retreat isn't fun huh ?

So no, IMO chaos didn't beat duelling and mirage in terms of passive. It's at the same level of mirage and more active than duelling.

About At, sincerely currently it's the only condiclear in the condimirage metabuild and if there weren't weaver and ranger in PvP I prefer way more MoR efficiency. But it's the only tool who can make you win against weaver and give you much help against rangers.

Some stuff you didn't understand correct from what i said (i ofc made a difference between an active and timed proc of protection or aegis from a player by using a skill and a passive proc from a trait, thats why i said passive passive vs passive active from a passive vigor proc). And my categories are all about skills having different amount of passivity included (means none of them is 100% active) but the lvl of passivity and for that the lvl of skill ceiling/ floor is very different between them. I don't think it makes sense to just explain again and do another wall of text. If you don't understand and don't agree i will just accept that. But i stand by my points why Choas has a way higher amount of category 1 passives than both other lines, as also has a higher lvl of passivity in the traits you have a passive and active part included but are not category 1 and from that a clearly lower skill ceiling/ floor from Chaosline compared to both other lines. And a lower skill ceiling/floor even in the very few active traits of Chaos. Chaos provides noobfriendly facetank sustain on the defensive side and on-cd skill spam less reactive gameplay on the offensive side even on their more active traits. Me playing Mesmer with Chaosline or not makes the difference in skill that is needed to play a Mesmer very clear for me too. Means my practical experience (inside and outside, playing Mesmer myself and playing vs Mesmers) goes very well conform with what i explained in my previous post.

Btw they removed clone death trait because cleaving clones is one basic counter to Mesmer that got completely undermined by that trait, it was completely passive category 1 and not even a dodgetrait, no clue why you mention that at that point. You let clones live you eat condis from 100% passive autoattack of clones and have no counter to shatters by killing them before they get shattered or you kill them and eat the condis they give by dying. This trait was ridiculous nonsense in terms of balance. It was a good decision to kill that trait. One of the best balance moves Anet ever did.

You give up a better condi clear for a skill that has more offensive purpose when using Arcane over other condi clear utilities to counter no condi meta builds while still having a chance to use Arcane as condi clear when needed. That is your decision. That is no argument against a better animation and a little bit higher casttime.

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@bravan.3876 said:

@bravan.3876 said:We maybe should start to use pm, no one except you and me will read our wall of text discussion anyway i guess.I think it's interesting to everyone to see other points of views.

@bravan.3876 said:Inspiration is not dead because bad or because it needs any skill to use.Inspiration is dead because it is bad...Main reason to take inspiration was for the condiclear. Now even if you remove chaos, people will choose just one utility instead of this line.It's supposed to be a line around heal and sustain.Just look at the traits :
  • Mender's purity is only good with Mantra of recovery which isn't used since they revome the 3rd charge and nerf centaures rune proc on cast.
  • Medic's feedback is average.
  • Restorative Mantras is meh, even with full healing power.
  • Sympathetic Visage is average but not reliable. (Basically it remove the passive auto-proc of poison and weakness from other class.).
  • Inspiring distortion is bad.
  • Warden's feedback is meh (more link to focus being so-so.).
  • Restorative illusions is good at heal/condi clear but destroy your damage output or you live better by putting pressure on opponent than with healing skills use.
  • Protected phantasms is bad.
  • Healing prism is bad.
  • Mental defense is very bad.
  • Illusionary inspiration is bad.
  • Blurred inscriptions is good on half signet, bad on the other half.

Basically the main reason to take inspiration is if you want to play around signet because they move the trait in this line.Mean at it's core it's supposed to be a line which main orientations are around phantasms and healing allies. Phantasm play is dead and healing allies is... Call me the day you see a mesmer healing in PvP instead of FB/ele.

In my view they should have nerfed Chaos and Inspiration into the ground and not Mirage tbh. Those traitlines always caused the balance problems, they do it on core builds, they did it on each Chronobuild that was broken and for that meta and they did it on Mirage. They overperform and make Mesmer way easier to play no matter what spec. They are the root of all evil ever coming from Mesmermeta and always were. Not even Mirage is op without Chaoline used, during Chaosline can turn even a power core build into brainless noobfriendly stuff that also i can play.

The Mirage or Coremesmer builds we will see in PvP after patch will be just as braindead and annoying to fight or even more cancer then the current condimeta build. And skilled Mirage builds, not carried by Chaos or Inspiration (or probably even both) will not be seen anymore, they are overnerfed as a spin off from "not meta but usable hardmode for masochists" to "absolutely unplayable".

1) No because on condi core chances are high you will choose illusion and you will land more shatter condi application instead of using ambush.

You can choose illusions because on core you can take Inspiration+Chaos in addition during Mirage needs Duelling (Deceptive Evasion) to work with IH. And funny but 99% of the player in this game cannot play current "beyond broken Condimirage" with 2 dodges without Chaosline and even less can play Powermirage. It might be more active in the way it applies condis (not rly the normal autoattacks from clones are still op) but it will be way waaaay more braindead in terms of surviving. Also there will be no opportunity costs for dodges what exacerbates the dodge management in Mirage. No matter if Mirage or Core, it will be more of a bunker build than a condi build. Maybe a hybrid or power bunker amulet will be choosen over that (condishatter gets nerfs again, rofl). I bet both legs that we will not see a skilled Coremesmer or Mirage build in meta after patch.If you choose Inspiration+Chaos you will do too little damage to do something. Because contrary to what people think, choosing utility or sustain traitline cost you damage. And I don't think pure mesmer tank will be viable post patch. Condi core will more likely be around duelling/chaos/illusions.And stop considering core mesmer has only and should have 3 traitline please.

2) I want more diversity than one power one-shot build, thanks.Sure sadly that diversity on power builds is exactly what will be killed by the next patch. Or do you expect to see any Powermirage using only Domination/Duelling or Illusion aside from Mirageline after patch? With only one dodge available? I doubt that.Powermirage isn't viable currently in a thief meta, like power mesmer in general when in this kind of meta and chances are high that the meta around thief will continue post patch so I don't see glasscanon mesmer being well represented in game.

Inspiration is not a good line for conquest, i always agreed to that, it is only good in carrying low skilled player to survive longer than they should. And for that the line is still pretty good. Just that Chaos can do both: Carry the player and being useful for the side node job and for that useful for the team as well. And because of the main problem in GW2, the unbalance between sustain and dmg (all the builds that have high sustain but still way too much dmg, and yes Mesmer too on builds with either Chaos or Inspiration or even with both traitlines), we always had semi bunker or even full bunker Mesmerbuilds in Meta still doing good dmg, condi or power, compared to high risk no reward builds. As said we will never agree about Chaos and Inspiration, but for me from an inside and outside perspective (playing vs Mesmer on other classes and playing Metamesmer myself) i hate those 2 traitlines (just as i hate defense traitline on Warrior etc.), not only is it annoying to play vs Mesmers using one or even two of these traitlines, they make Mesmer that easy and mistake resistent to play, that even i can play them on high PvP lvl. Nothing i ever will have respect for. Just my view and we should agree to disagree here because that view i will never change.

Chaos is too passive and forgiving, Inspiration is too non reactive spammy and from that too forgiving in my view and both should be reworked into more active and/ or skillbased sustain but i say that to most defensive core traitlines from most classes, not only Mesmers. Since the traitline rework pre HoT defensive core traitlines are power creeped as hell and have too less opportunity costs in dmg and they are too passively or too low skill ceiling designed. I cannot rly say if the planned patch will change that basic problem with the opportunity costs (i doubt it, because it seems everyhting will get same treatment without dealing with currently more or less op stuff differently), and as long as this basic problem with defensive core traitlines will not be fixed, you can be sure that the dmg will be more than enough even when using both defense lines and unfair higher compared to high risk builds (and for that GW2 rewards noobfriedlier builds more that high skilled builds without tons of mistake covers).

Yes Core Duelling/Illusion/Chaos will be a thing played with Scepter/ sword offhand or pistol and sword/torch for the block-evade and stealthspam in addition. Most likely hybrid than full condi, because the block counters, just as pistol do insane dmg on power and hybrid builds (during pistol dmg from bleeds and shatter condi dmg is nerfed again, too much nerfed for a full condi playstyle i think). Condi dmg from Clone autoattacks will still be an important and for that passive part of the condi or hybrid style. During Powermes builds will dissappear most likely completely, in particular on Mirage due to the overnerf with the trade of nonsense, and strong Thief builds in general.How can anyone be happy about that trend? All these wrong nerfs so many ppl asked for just lower our chances to meet a Mesmer not carried by a braindead build, just by deleting skillful builds with unnecessary and wrong directed overnerfs during trying to balance condibuilds at wrong places. Enjoy :joy:

We will continue to disagree yeah, mean I don't know why you are persuaded that chaos is a passive trailine while duelling and mirage have the same if not more passive traits in them in the current meta :Chaos : Metaphysical Rejuvenation, Illusionary Membrane, Auspicious anguish and Chaotic persistence.Mirage : Renewing oasis, mirage mantle, IH used defensively. Considering the 2 other minor are link to the spec particularity.Duelling : Critical infusion, Sharper images, Evasive mirror, Master Fencer, Deceptive Evasion.So apart basing your chaos crusade on feelings or I don't know what I don't understand a point about your argumentation against the only gameplay defining traitline left we have.

The damage from sword oh on a condi build ins't that good, I will better see sword/torch, scepter/pistol or staff,scepter/x. And condi damage from sword auto is.... null. That's why it should be more active globally.

Great now i need to google all those traits :joy:

You put a lot of traits in the same passive category while they are very different.
  1. There are passive traits i would call passive category 1, stuff like stunbreak and stabi proc on warrior defense line when eating a cc or the passive endure pain proc or the passive thief dodge trait or active passive procs like Necros Lesser Spinal Shivers. Those passives all do something automatically and the reward of it procs without the player needs to think about it at all. The game plays itself here.
  2. Then there are passive procs of effects like boons. Here you can differ between an active and a passive continuation. If a trait gives a passive proc of vigor then the vigor itself doesn't carry the player by simply existing. He needs to use this vigor (endurance) for active and reactive plays. He can waste the resource, the game doesn't play for itself. The passive proc of the boon only higher the resources for his active defensive play. That is common and active way of using traits to buff gameplay aspects of a build. If you say these traits are passive and should not exist, then there is no trait type left you can use for a skilled game^^ Other thing is a passive proc of aegis or protection. These boons have reward by themself, just by being active. There is no active gameplay linked to them, they provide facetanking (except of the skillful play to see, that you have aegis and don't need to dodge the next attack). If these boons get generated passive and random by the game, then neither the player nor his target can active work with them. They proc in a good moment and neutralzise a 10k hit and the player survives just by a lucky random proc or they proc in a useless moment. Passive generated and for that not active by player timed protection procs (for example when he expect a burst coming) also have no skillful play included, just by existence it enables the player to facetank more. He can be lucky that it passively procs right before a burst or not. Means there is a big difference between procing active gameplay resources (vigor, might, fury) passive or procing passive gameplay rewards passive providing low skill ceiling non reactive facetank gameplay. Last thing is comparable with the passive traits category no. 1. PU randomly procing aegis is like 100 times more passive and carrying, like passive passive than a passive proc of vigor what is passive active. Vigor proc just creates active gameplay resources and those traits are for that active and not carrying (as long as dodges overall cannot be chained to nearly perma dodging ofc). During a random aegis proc can cover massive player mistakes and slow reaction time and that in a way neither the player nor his opponent can tactical and active work with.
  3. Then there is stuff that happens on dodge. Dodgetraits are not per se passive, you have to use the dodge button. If a reward on dodge trait is mostly active or passive depends on how the reward is designed (i explained that several times with the difference between condi ambushes and power ambushes mostly from sword). Means when the effect is more based on effects the player can active work with (daze for active and reactive interrupts, timed blind on a key burst skill or big cc for active defensive gameplay, timed immob to prepare a burst etc.) to outplay opponents it is not rly passive. The player has to consider to use dodges well timed for the purpose of that reward and not only to defensive avoid attacks. That highers opportunity costs for dodges and makes dodge management harder and adds tactical deepness to the dodge management. Only when the dodge reward is too weak so that offensive dodges only for that reward are not rewarding enough, than it will become just a little passive side effect, no one would active work with. But at least then you can be sure that the effect is not strong enough to be power creeped and heavily carry the player (like Mirages reggen and protection after dodge traits). On the other side when the dodge reward (in particular when the dodge reward is only about dmg and not active effects to outplay opponents) is too strong then it can become passive. When the dmg is too high, that high, that dodging only defensive is rewarding enough it will also only be a passive side effect no one would dodge offensive for ever. The player gets too much rewarded out of the dodge trait with pure defensive dodges and for that doesn't need to think about offensive dodges to maximise rewards from the dodge trait. Means balancing dodge traits to make them mostly active and not carrying bad players and add skill ceiling is a very hard and difficult work. You need to find nearly perfect equilibrium between a not too weak dodge reward (or no one will ever waste a dodge offensive for that) and a too strong dodge reward (no one will ever use a pure offensive dodge because it is simply not needed to get the maximum reward out of the dodge trait as happens on Condimirage). Here on Condimirage the ambushes are only about dmg, no other effects which only have sense when timed well, and the dmg is also too high and for that mostly passive. Also you need to not limit the dodge resource too much so offensive outplay dodges become per se impossible. Then the dodge trait will be used as only passive side effect from pure defensive dodges too and all the skill ceiling and harder dodge management will be gone. Anet managed that balancing act very well for sword and gs on Mirage but not for the condi clone ambushes. And with the one dodge change they will destroy even what they did well on Mirage.
  4. Then you have passive dmg multiplier with different types. One type highers dmg on specific skills or linked to specific player actions. Means they have an element of active gameplay, the player needs to have them in mind and either do some specific action or use specific skills to get a reward from them. Then there are passive dmg traits just higher dmg on all skills. These traits are completely passive because they have no impact on the player behavior/playstyle. The player doesn't need to work with them, they are just there affecting all skills the same. If these rly passive dmg traits on all skills have too high dmg they lower skill ceiling and floor and carry the player who will get rewarded with higher dmg no matter how bad he plays the class in general and he will be rewarded with broken dmg will put the opponent into defense too easy (like instant max range 7k no clone mw with instant blink. A high value combo when using all dmg traits Mesmer has incl. rune and sigils and without any counterplay because full instant no animation from max range). In general passive dmg traits are basic trait types no game can live without and are no problem as long as they are not too strong. The more passive the application and the more skill-universal they are, the weaker they should be. Dmg traits also always have the need to actively hit your skills, they are just a support of your active actions, giving your active actions more value. Without active player actions they do nothing. Means passive dmg traits are not per se a low skill ceiling passive trait which should not exist. If they are too strong you can just nerf their effect and they are balanced and do not lower skill ceiling, not passive like category 1.

Lets now look at the traits you mentioned:For example Critical infusion, the application of vigor is passive true but you have to use that vigor active. That is nothing carrying compared to a random aegis block from PU can mean the difference between being killed by a 10k hit or not get hit at all or compared to a passive protection proc. That is not a trait forces passive (and non reactive facetank) gameplay, it is not a trait carrying the player by making the game play itself. This is a trait supports active defensive gameplay. it is active overall.Sharper images not passive. The player at least has to play the game and produce hits (it is not like every 10s bleed gets proced on the target as soons as player is infight even when the player itself is afk). This is just a dmg multiplier, it could be designed more active but in the end just a condi dmg mulitplier. When not too strong nothing will carry the player by itself.Evasive Mirror is a dodge trait and for that not passive category 1. It is also something a player can active work with (for example it can have more value to waste a dodge into nothing or for a low dmg attack to then reflect and not dodge a high dmg projectile for the extra dmg). You also can waste it by panic dodging a projectile effect while having reflect up. But because that reflect has a big delay (procs after the dodge is finished) you barely can use it that reactive and most projectile classes like Ranger have spammy combos make it worth to dodge one projectile and reflect the next attack automatically (like the longbow 2+3 combo). This trait is overall more on the passive side but far away from being as passive and broken as category 1 skills (for example PU random aegis proc or thief auto-dodge trait). I never was a fan of that trait, still not such an universal carry and with more counterplay (not randomly proced) like aegis from PU.Master Fencer is not passive aside from the boon proc. Good player knows when they get fury and will use big skills or burst combos timed during that fury uptime. Means a good player will get way more reward out of that than a bad player. It influences gameplay behavior and in general fury has no falue without the player actively pressing buttons. Its more or less a dmg multiplier linked to a specific situation a player can active work with and will get more rewarded when he actively work with it and change his gameplay depending on having fury up or not.Deceptive Evasion is pretty much the most active dodge trait in the game. You get a reward on an active button use, adds opportunity costs and harder dodge management and then the reward even needs to be used for something impactful by another button use (shatters). Superiority Complex is way more passive and lower skill ceiling than Deceptive Evasion. But both are far away from being as passive and player carrying than anything in Chaosline, both are just simple dmg multiplier with DE being way more active and tactical and more utility based than dmg based compared to Superiority Complex.

I agree to Mirage mantle is a more passive dodge trait, not a fan of it, but duration is kind of short, means not that power creeped. Mirage as traitline overall has way less access to boons than Chaosline with way less boonduration. IH is a dodge trait, per se not passive, depends on the ambush skills what comes out of it. Condi ambushes are passive and op not IH. The majority of skills in Mirage are active. You have no category 1 passives in it. No random aegis blocks no boonspam on buttons you spam for different reasons (except the short reggen or protection after each dodge). Renewing Oasis is also more of a passive dodge trait (no one would waste a dodge only for the reggen proc, at least barely, could save your life when running around with a burn stack on low hp it can mean live or die when you dodge only for the reggen and condi dmg reduction). But not powercreeped. Also reggen barely will carry low reaction time and facetanking key burst skills. Passive reggen procts are the least problem in terms of passive carry and needs to be accompanied by a lot of other passive facetank sustain to carry bad players remarkable. That is only given when combining Mirage with Chaosline. Mirage whole nature is build around active dodging and getting dmg and sustain from hat. You can spec it kind of passive and noobcarry when going for reggen and prot on dodge and stunbreak on dodge. This would be a similar passive low skill ceiling way of playing Mirage but still not powercreeped in the boon access (EM stunbreak is broken tho). But the most common traitchoice with Desert Distortion and IH is pretty active and high skill ceiling (at least on power). During Chaos is per se simple passive or at least low skill ceiling facetank sustain with boon procs by either braindead spamming skills for other purposes or simple passive random procs category 1 worthy.

Chaosline: Minor traits passive procs category 1 at specific points, adept traits not rly passive just op in its rewards or low skill ceiling facetank sustain, not used (Illusionary Defense). Auspicious Anguish half of it completely passive category 1, the distortion part is active and kind of skillful the whole trait overall just op in its reward and eleminates the last weakness Chaosline had (condis). Chaotic Transference low skill ceiling facetank sustain, Chaotic Dampening one totally passive and one active part. Overall low skill ceiling facetank sustain from protection and lower cds for less punishment of skillwaste on a sustainy facetank weapon for even more boon spam carry. Chaotic Interruption, active basic mechanic highly skillbased but either broken in its reward deleting all skilled aspect of that trait (old CI) or unused now (and too random in its reward will prevent active and tactical uses from the player and his opponent). PU completely passive procs during stealthspam abuse, by design a broken low skill ceiling trait rewarding a per se low skillceiling defense mechanic (stealth) even more, also provides low effort bait mechanic by simply staelthstacking instead active outplaying opponents defensive skills, random procs means neither the player nor opponents can work with it tactical. Random Aegis and protection are passive passive procs near category 1. Bountiful Disillusionment boons on click so not category 1 passive but still non of the boons have impact on the shatter behavior, they become a passive side effect from shattering for other purposes (or you just spam the shatters on cd for the boons because shatters are useless on condibuilds for their main purpose of applying condi dmg), either way it is just stacking and spamming boons without the player needs to think about it (just like heal on shatter in Inspiration btw). The only boon you would waste a shatter for to actively and reactive counter opponents moves is stabi to cover a stomp or rezz or a cast of a skill to avoid a cc. Funny that the strongest boon on that trait is the only one can lead into active and reactive uses from shatters just to proc that boon as reaction to opponents behavior. Aside form that: just braindead spam to stack boons with a power creeped long duration. Means during you can spec Mirage active and high skill ceiling you can't do that by using Chaosline at all, not even if you would want to. The only skillful and active things in Chaos are half of Auspicious Anguish but it is overall op and you have a massive passive carry included or CI what could be active and skilled but the reward is kitten and too random for active and skilled uses and tactical plays from the Mesmer or his opponent. No matter what traits you pick in Chaos, the moment you use that traitline you are carried and the build has lower skill ceiling. During traits in Duelling/ Mirage are per se less passive or less power creeped and the few you could consider more passive and lower skill ceiling can be completely avoided by using other clearly active trait alternatives in the traitline (like using blind on f3 instead reflect after dodge, using Desert Distortion over protection on dodge, using IH over EM on power builds).

Chaos beats Duelling and Mirage in its passive and noobcarry low skillceiling nature by far. Is also power creeped in its boonspam defense/offense (why even offensive boons in a defensive traitline?) and the overall rewards the traitline gives. It provides way more non reactive facetank sustain even on active skill activation, and brainless spam from skills for non reactive perma self buffs with boons by simple on-cd-spam of skills, means even the active traits in Chaos have still low skill ceiling.

One thought about Arcane Thievery i had: I think you are right with what you say, when you imply that Arcane Thievery is meant as condi remove in the first place. But i don't think it is meant like that. It is an on hit skill for the most parts, to selfbuff with boons also by on hit boonsteal and doing dmg by condi transfer. For a good condiremove it would be way to strong with all the side rewards. If you want a simple and effective condi remove Arcane should not be your choice. And for that i think it would be fair to give this on hit skill, that is meant to be a reactive skill, a longer cast time and dodgeable animation. Defensive condi remove is not the purpose of the skill i think, it is more an offensive skill and for that should be dodgeable by animation and casttime. If Anet thinks, they want Mesmer to have such a strong skill as useful condi remove they could change quickness into resistance and give it casttime as you suggested but maybe would be power creeped op then. No clue...

I'm loving how you argue that the traitline you consider as skilled contains few passives but it's fine because they are little efficient. While you take care to don't talk about the passives efficiency in the traitline you want to nerf :) .

I disagree about you opinion on cat 2. Particulary about vigor : sure the player have to push a key to active an evade. But you miss the point that there is skills who give vigor when you click it and vigor who auto-proc from whatever. Mean pushing a utility or weapon skill who give x sec vigor is different from having vigor on crit during normal rotation. Note that actually, most meta-build have a good vigor/endurance generation while not having to pop it actively. Mean it's more a "I do normal rotation and I get vigor as a cherry" than a "I use this skill to get vigor". Same for aegis and protection, you have skill and combo who are dedicated to pop it and there is ways to auto-proc it. It's weird to consider that a combo or dedicated skill whose only goal is to get protection is at the same level as an auto-proc protection. (Basically protection on chaos armor combo is different from protection when you reach 75%.)Guys will prefer BD over PU in the current condi mirage meta. Then we can discuss about the efficiency of having 1/5 chance of auto-proc aegis for a GM. (And about rng in general.).

I disagree about cat 3 too. Of course dodgetraits are passive, they remove clone death trait just because of that... Mean with or without the on dodge effect, you will push your dodge button defensively. The question is not how strong it is but the fact that with or without it you will dodge. There is only plus to have effect on this because all the combat system is around it. Mean look at war evade, look at pre-nerf Holo bomb evade, look at mesmer old clone death, look at current IH & miragecloak. Than when the effect become really important it start to be interesting to burn evade offensively and we go to the active effect but it's only a little part of the base concept of evades. You will normally do way more defensive evade than offensive (as long as you haven't god positionning with +1ing everytimes.). Even considering your sword evade, it will be more used defensively to evade big attacks than to rupt the big attacks because you have more value evading something launching than trying to anticipate an attack that the opponent can fake, particulary considering the 1 sec delay before the CC. Basically using offensively sword ambush is in a situation where you want to pressure a low health target or you are +1 someone.So there is 2 view to consider about dodgetraits but most of time I put them in passive style.One more example : the protection on mirage dodge : you really think that a player will think "I will dodge to get protection during 1 sec to mitigate next incoming damage.". No the true is : "I take this trait because other are bad and it give me little more sustain on dodge".Mirages reggen and protection after dodge traits are ok because they have a bad duration while 3 sec protection on a 15 sec CD is passively op in chaos... cough cough. you know that Mirage traitline give near the same passive regen and protection than chaos ? under vigor during 15 sec : 3 sec protection on mirage, 8 sec regen. Versus 3 and 10 for chaos. And the more the fight duration increase, the more mirage go ahead chaos.

How can you find the GS ambush balancing fine while saying the Staff ambush is passive while they work exactly the same : you evade, your illusions does damage. The only difference is between the non-ambush phases where staff clone auto put condi. Moreover, Staff ambush are way easier to evade than GS ambush in this regard GS ambush can be considered more viable than Staff ambush.

Agree about cat4. Egostim is lazy concept like superiority complex. While we have glamour untraited since....

So about what I mentionned :Critical infusion is IMO passive like explained in the what I don't agree with your cat2. (that said it's an overnerf trait compared to other class.)Sharper image is, you will not use a skill to inflict bleed particulary, you will pop illusions btw and it come like a cherry That"s the difference with duelist's discipline where you have to use pistol skill.Evasive mirror is too much random to really be active mean you evade the first key skill from the opponent, it proc, then he just have to pewpewting you. It's basically what happend in a condi mrage mirror duel : the bad one will engaging on pistol, making the opponent to proc the mirror. While the good one will engaging in staff, then swap pistol to bursting the opponent. It's pure passive and opponent dependant, you can't actively use it if you aren't facing an oister.( Joke history : The best part about this trait is that the more it's nerf, the better PU get efficient because before with reflect on manipulation for example you shouldn't proc reflect before casting PU or you should brun an evade to nullify the reflect. Yeah PU was more skilled before :) )Master fencer is passive, you really think even good players will stop pressuring the opponent to not proc it because there will potentially be a windows to more burts later ? No, moreover if the opponent heal or you take damage, it will not proc and it will kitten your prepatation. What happen in reality, is that players do their normal rotation and try to maintain the highest fury uptime as they can with this autoproc.Deceptive Evasion is passive, last time is way really used actively was during vanilla to pop clone then F1 shatter more damage. You will never currently offensively pop a clone to shatter. it's just a capital gain of basic mesmer mechanics you give more main ressources when you dodge (and put more pressure with clone auto/IH.).

About mirage vs chaos I already answer in the why I don't agree on the end of cat3 answer but basically I think you are viewing mirage line in pink and chaos line in dark while they are pretty similar (Mean you are contradicting yoursefl on some explanations..). I will add that has you know I consider more PU as a gameplay definind trait (what we lack.) than as a op passive trait. (Mean is mesmer didn't get this passive damage modifier from egotism and superiority complex, core burst should be bad and PU come to a niche again.) I prefer 100 time having a niche trait than one more dead trait.Chaotic dampening is active, come on, because it give protection it's passive ?? Come on it's more active than even most traits in domination in your skilled builds.Bountiful Disillusionment currently is more active than passive currently as you will using f2 to maintain vigor and stab to counter CC (it's not the chronobunker period.).About staff : it does near zero direct damage so hopufully it proc boons and condi. Mean having a weapon used only to positionning with phase retreat isn't fun huh ?

So no, IMO chaos didn't beat duelling and mirage in terms of passive. It's at the same level of mirage and more active than duelling.

About At, sincerely currently it's the only condiclear in the condimirage metabuild and if there weren't weaver and ranger in PvP I prefer way more MoR efficiency. But it's the only tool who can make you win against weaver and give you much help against rangers.

Some stuff you didn't understand correct from what i said (i ofc made a difference between an active and timed proc of protection or aegis from a player by using a skill and a passive proc from a trait, thats why i said passive passive vs passive active from a passive vigor proc). And my categories are all about skills having different amount of passivity included (means none of them is 100% active) but the lvl of passivity and for that the lvl of skill ceiling/ floor is very different between them. I don't think it makes sense to just explain again and do another wall of text. If you don't understand and don't agree i will just accept that. But i stand by my points why Choas has a way higher amount of category 1 passives than both other lines, as also has a higher lvl of passivity in the traits you have a passive and active part included but are not category 1 and from that a clearly lower skill ceiling/ floor from Chaosline compared to both other lines. And a lower skill ceiling/floor even in the very few active traits of Chaos. Chaos provides noobfriendly facetank sustain on the defensive side and on-cd skill spam less reactive gameplay on the offensive side even on their more active traits. Me playing Mesmer with Chaosline or not makes the difference in skill that is needed to play a Mesmer very clear for me too. Means my practical experience (inside and outside, playing Mesmer myself and playing vs Mesmers) goes very well conform with what i explained in my previous post.

Btw they removed clone death trait because cleaving clones is one basic counter to Mesmer that got completely undermined by that trait, it was completely passive category 1 and not even a dodgetrait, no clue why you mention that at that point. You let clones live you eat condis from 100% passive autoattack of clones and have no counter to shatters by killing them before they get shattered or you kill them and eat the condis they give by dying. This trait was ridiculous nonsense in terms of balance. It was a good decision to kill that trait. One of the best balance moves Anet ever did.

What you said wasn't always clear and english isn't my main langage which didn't help yeah.Mean sometimes you write something then put few exception on a bloc.But I maintained that chaos is at the same level as mirage talking about active/passive view. Again look at prot and regen passive application from the two lines. Btw 2 minor mirage traits are used to the spec.On dead clones was a high counter against melee rollfacing which was counterd by single target skills. Moreover on dead never kill someone on their own looking at the damage output. Current war evade is way more lethal than debiliting dissipation ever been. That's another contradiction which have to do with dodgetrait being passive or not.

You give up a better condi clear for a skill that has more offensive purpose when using Arcane over other condi clear utilities to counter no condi meta builds while still having a chance to use Arcane as condi clear when needed. That is your decision. That is no argument against a better animation and a little bit higher casttime.Put this in perspective of other class condiclear access and what sacrifice they does before writting obvious sentences like that please.

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@viquing.8254 said:

@bravan.3876 said:We maybe should start to use pm, no one except you and me will read our wall of text discussion anyway i guess.I think it's interesting to everyone to see other points of views.

@bravan.3876 said:Inspiration is not dead because bad or because it needs any skill to use.Inspiration is dead because it is bad...Main reason to take inspiration was for the condiclear. Now even if you remove chaos, people will choose just one utility instead of this line.It's supposed to be a line around heal and sustain.Just look at the traits :
  • Mender's purity is only good with Mantra of recovery which isn't used since they revome the 3rd charge and nerf centaures rune proc on cast.
  • Medic's feedback is average.
  • Restorative Mantras is meh, even with full healing power.
  • Sympathetic Visage is average but not reliable. (Basically it remove the passive auto-proc of poison and weakness from other class.).
  • Inspiring distortion is bad.
  • Warden's feedback is meh (more link to focus being so-so.).
  • Restorative illusions is good at heal/condi clear but destroy your damage output or you live better by putting pressure on opponent than with healing skills use.
  • Protected phantasms is bad.
  • Healing prism is bad.
  • Mental defense is very bad.
  • Illusionary inspiration is bad.
  • Blurred inscriptions is good on half signet, bad on the other half.

Basically the main reason to take inspiration is if you want to play around signet because they move the trait in this line.Mean at it's core it's supposed to be a line which main orientations are around phantasms and healing allies. Phantasm play is dead and healing allies is... Call me the day you see a mesmer healing in PvP instead of FB/ele.

In my view they should have nerfed Chaos and Inspiration into the ground and not Mirage tbh. Those traitlines always caused the balance problems, they do it on core builds, they did it on each Chronobuild that was broken and for that meta and they did it on Mirage. They overperform and make Mesmer way easier to play no matter what spec. They are the root of all evil ever coming from Mesmermeta and always were. Not even Mirage is op without Chaoline used, during Chaosline can turn even a power core build into brainless noobfriendly stuff that also i can play.

The Mirage or Coremesmer builds we will see in PvP after patch will be just as braindead and annoying to fight or even more cancer then the current condimeta build. And skilled Mirage builds, not carried by Chaos or Inspiration (or probably even both) will not be seen anymore, they are overnerfed as a spin off from "not meta but usable hardmode for masochists" to "absolutely unplayable".

1) No because on condi core chances are high you will choose illusion and you will land more shatter condi application instead of using ambush.

You can choose illusions because on core you can take Inspiration+Chaos in addition during Mirage needs Duelling (Deceptive Evasion) to work with IH. And funny but 99% of the player in this game cannot play current "beyond broken Condimirage" with 2 dodges without Chaosline and even less can play Powermirage. It might be more active in the way it applies condis (not rly the normal autoattacks from clones are still op) but it will be way waaaay more braindead in terms of surviving. Also there will be no opportunity costs for dodges what exacerbates the dodge management in Mirage. No matter if Mirage or Core, it will be more of a bunker build than a condi build. Maybe a hybrid or power bunker amulet will be choosen over that (condishatter gets nerfs again, rofl). I bet both legs that we will not see a skilled Coremesmer or Mirage build in meta after patch.If you choose Inspiration+Chaos you will do too little damage to do something. Because contrary to what people think, choosing utility or sustain traitline cost you damage. And I don't think pure mesmer tank will be viable post patch. Condi core will more likely be around duelling/chaos/illusions.And stop considering core mesmer has only and should have 3 traitline please.

2) I want more diversity than one power one-shot build, thanks.Sure sadly that diversity on power builds is exactly what will be killed by the next patch. Or do you expect to see any Powermirage using only Domination/Duelling or Illusion aside from Mirageline after patch? With only one dodge available? I doubt that.Powermirage isn't viable currently in a thief meta, like power mesmer in general when in this kind of meta and chances are high that the meta around thief will continue post patch so I don't see glasscanon mesmer being well represented in game.

Inspiration is not a good line for conquest, i always agreed to that, it is only good in carrying low skilled player to survive longer than they should. And for that the line is still pretty good. Just that Chaos can do both: Carry the player and being useful for the side node job and for that useful for the team as well. And because of the main problem in GW2, the unbalance between sustain and dmg (all the builds that have high sustain but still way too much dmg, and yes Mesmer too on builds with either Chaos or Inspiration or even with both traitlines), we always had semi bunker or even full bunker Mesmerbuilds in Meta still doing good dmg, condi or power, compared to high risk no reward builds. As said we will never agree about Chaos and Inspiration, but for me from an inside and outside perspective (playing vs Mesmer on other classes and playing Metamesmer myself) i hate those 2 traitlines (just as i hate defense traitline on Warrior etc.), not only is it annoying to play vs Mesmers using one or even two of these traitlines, they make Mesmer that easy and mistake resistent to play, that even i can play them on high PvP lvl. Nothing i ever will have respect for. Just my view and we should agree to disagree here because that view i will never change.

Chaos is too passive and forgiving, Inspiration is too non reactive spammy and from that too forgiving in my view and both should be reworked into more active and/ or skillbased sustain but i say that to most defensive core traitlines from most classes, not only Mesmers. Since the traitline rework pre HoT defensive core traitlines are power creeped as hell and have too less opportunity costs in dmg and they are too passively or too low skill ceiling designed. I cannot rly say if the planned patch will change that basic problem with the opportunity costs (i doubt it, because it seems everyhting will get same treatment without dealing with currently more or less op stuff differently), and as long as this basic problem with defensive core traitlines will not be fixed, you can be sure that the dmg will be more than enough even when using both defense lines and unfair higher compared to high risk builds (and for that GW2 rewards noobfriedlier builds more that high skilled builds without tons of mistake covers).

Yes Core Duelling/Illusion/Chaos will be a thing played with Scepter/ sword offhand or pistol and sword/torch for the block-evade and stealthspam in addition. Most likely hybrid than full condi, because the block counters, just as pistol do insane dmg on power and hybrid builds (during pistol dmg from bleeds and shatter condi dmg is nerfed again, too much nerfed for a full condi playstyle i think). Condi dmg from Clone autoattacks will still be an important and for that passive part of the condi or hybrid style. During Powermes builds will dissappear most likely completely, in particular on Mirage due to the overnerf with the trade of nonsense, and strong Thief builds in general.How can anyone be happy about that trend? All these wrong nerfs so many ppl asked for just lower our chances to meet a Mesmer not carried by a braindead build, just by deleting skillful builds with unnecessary and wrong directed overnerfs during trying to balance condibuilds at wrong places. Enjoy :joy:

We will continue to disagree yeah, mean I don't know why you are persuaded that chaos is a passive trailine while duelling and mirage have the same if not more passive traits in them in the current meta :Chaos : Metaphysical Rejuvenation, Illusionary Membrane, Auspicious anguish and Chaotic persistence.Mirage : Renewing oasis, mirage mantle, IH used defensively. Considering the 2 other minor are link to the spec particularity.Duelling : Critical infusion, Sharper images, Evasive mirror, Master Fencer, Deceptive Evasion.So apart basing your chaos crusade on feelings or I don't know what I don't understand a point about your argumentation against the only gameplay defining traitline left we have.

The damage from sword oh on a condi build ins't that good, I will better see sword/torch, scepter/pistol or staff,scepter/x. And condi damage from sword auto is.... null. That's why it should be more active globally.

Great now i need to google all those traits :joy:

You put a lot of traits in the same passive category while they are very different.
  1. There are passive traits i would call passive category 1, stuff like stunbreak and stabi proc on warrior defense line when eating a cc or the passive endure pain proc or the passive thief dodge trait or active passive procs like Necros Lesser Spinal Shivers. Those passives all do something automatically and the reward of it procs without the player needs to think about it at all. The game plays itself here.
  2. Then there are passive procs of effects like boons. Here you can differ between an active and a passive continuation. If a trait gives a passive proc of vigor then the vigor itself doesn't carry the player by simply existing. He needs to use this vigor (endurance) for active and reactive plays. He can waste the resource, the game doesn't play for itself. The passive proc of the boon only higher the resources for his active defensive play. That is common and active way of using traits to buff gameplay aspects of a build. If you say these traits are passive and should not exist, then there is no trait type left you can use for a skilled game^^ Other thing is a passive proc of aegis or protection. These boons have reward by themself, just by being active. There is no active gameplay linked to them, they provide facetanking (except of the skillful play to see, that you have aegis and don't need to dodge the next attack). If these boons get generated passive and random by the game, then neither the player nor his target can active work with them. They proc in a good moment and neutralzise a 10k hit and the player survives just by a lucky random proc or they proc in a useless moment. Passive generated and for that not active by player timed protection procs (for example when he expect a burst coming) also have no skillful play included, just by existence it enables the player to facetank more. He can be lucky that it passively procs right before a burst or not. Means there is a big difference between procing active gameplay resources (vigor, might, fury) passive or procing passive gameplay rewards passive providing low skill ceiling non reactive facetank gameplay. Last thing is comparable with the passive traits category no. 1. PU randomly procing aegis is like 100 times more passive and carrying, like passive passive than a passive proc of vigor what is passive active. Vigor proc just creates active gameplay resources and those traits are for that active and not carrying (as long as dodges overall cannot be chained to nearly perma dodging ofc). During a random aegis proc can cover massive player mistakes and slow reaction time and that in a way neither the player nor his opponent can tactical and active work with.
  3. Then there is stuff that happens on dodge. Dodgetraits are not per se passive, you have to use the dodge button. If a reward on dodge trait is mostly active or passive depends on how the reward is designed (i explained that several times with the difference between condi ambushes and power ambushes mostly from sword). Means when the effect is more based on effects the player can active work with (daze for active and reactive interrupts, timed blind on a key burst skill or big cc for active defensive gameplay, timed immob to prepare a burst etc.) to outplay opponents it is not rly passive. The player has to consider to use dodges well timed for the purpose of that reward and not only to defensive avoid attacks. That highers opportunity costs for dodges and makes dodge management harder and adds tactical deepness to the dodge management. Only when the dodge reward is too weak so that offensive dodges only for that reward are not rewarding enough, than it will become just a little passive side effect, no one would active work with. But at least then you can be sure that the effect is not strong enough to be power creeped and heavily carry the player (like Mirages reggen and protection after dodge traits). On the other side when the dodge reward (in particular when the dodge reward is only about dmg and not active effects to outplay opponents) is too strong then it can become passive. When the dmg is too high, that high, that dodging only defensive is rewarding enough it will also only be a passive side effect no one would dodge offensive for ever. The player gets too much rewarded out of the dodge trait with pure defensive dodges and for that doesn't need to think about offensive dodges to maximise rewards from the dodge trait. Means balancing dodge traits to make them mostly active and not carrying bad players and add skill ceiling is a very hard and difficult work. You need to find nearly perfect equilibrium between a not too weak dodge reward (or no one will ever waste a dodge offensive for that) and a too strong dodge reward (no one will ever use a pure offensive dodge because it is simply not needed to get the maximum reward out of the dodge trait as happens on Condimirage). Here on Condimirage the ambushes are only about dmg, no other effects which only have sense when timed well, and the dmg is also too high and for that mostly passive. Also you need to not limit the dodge resource too much so offensive outplay dodges become per se impossible. Then the dodge trait will be used as only passive side effect from pure defensive dodges too and all the skill ceiling and harder dodge management will be gone. Anet managed that balancing act very well for sword and gs on Mirage but not for the condi clone ambushes. And with the one dodge change they will destroy even what they did well on Mirage.
  4. Then you have passive dmg multiplier with different types. One type highers dmg on specific skills or linked to specific player actions. Means they have an element of active gameplay, the player needs to have them in mind and either do some specific action or use specific skills to get a reward from them. Then there are passive dmg traits just higher dmg on all skills. These traits are completely passive because they have no impact on the player behavior/playstyle. The player doesn't need to work with them, they are just there affecting all skills the same. If these rly passive dmg traits on all skills have too high dmg they lower skill ceiling and floor and carry the player who will get rewarded with higher dmg no matter how bad he plays the class in general and he will be rewarded with broken dmg will put the opponent into defense too easy (like instant max range 7k no clone mw with instant blink. A high value combo when using all dmg traits Mesmer has incl. rune and sigils and without any counterplay because full instant no animation from max range). In general passive dmg traits are basic trait types no game can live without and are no problem as long as they are not too strong. The more passive the application and the more skill-universal they are, the weaker they should be. Dmg traits also always have the need to actively hit your skills, they are just a support of your active actions, giving your active actions more value. Without active player actions they do nothing. Means passive dmg traits are not per se a low skill ceiling passive trait which should not exist. If they are too strong you can just nerf their effect and they are balanced and do not lower skill ceiling, not passive like category 1.

Lets now look at the traits you mentioned:For example Critical infusion, the application of vigor is passive true but you have to use that vigor active. That is nothing carrying compared to a random aegis block from PU can mean the difference between being killed by a 10k hit or not get hit at all or compared to a passive protection proc. That is not a trait forces passive (and non reactive facetank) gameplay, it is not a trait carrying the player by making the game play itself. This is a trait supports active defensive gameplay. it is active overall.Sharper images not passive. The player at least has to play the game and produce hits (it is not like every 10s bleed gets proced on the target as soons as player is infight even when the player itself is afk). This is just a dmg multiplier, it could be designed more active but in the end just a condi dmg mulitplier. When not too strong nothing will carry the player by itself.Evasive Mirror is a dodge trait and for that not passive category 1. It is also something a player can active work with (for example it can have more value to waste a dodge into nothing or for a low dmg attack to then reflect and not dodge a high dmg projectile for the extra dmg). You also can waste it by panic dodging a projectile effect while having reflect up. But because that reflect has a big delay (procs after the dodge is finished) you barely can use it that reactive and most projectile classes like Ranger have spammy combos make it worth to dodge one projectile and reflect the next attack automatically (like the longbow 2+3 combo). This trait is overall more on the passive side but far away from being as passive and broken as category 1 skills (for example PU random aegis proc or thief auto-dodge trait). I never was a fan of that trait, still not such an universal carry and with more counterplay (not randomly proced) like aegis from PU.Master Fencer is not passive aside from the boon proc. Good player knows when they get fury and will use big skills or burst combos timed during that fury uptime. Means a good player will get way more reward out of that than a bad player. It influences gameplay behavior and in general fury has no falue without the player actively pressing buttons. Its more or less a dmg multiplier linked to a specific situation a player can active work with and will get more rewarded when he actively work with it and change his gameplay depending on having fury up or not.Deceptive Evasion is pretty much the most active dodge trait in the game. You get a reward on an active button use, adds opportunity costs and harder dodge management and then the reward even needs to be used for something impactful by another button use (shatters). Superiority Complex is way more passive and lower skill ceiling than Deceptive Evasion. But both are far away from being as passive and player carrying than anything in Chaosline, both are just simple dmg multiplier with DE being way more active and tactical and more utility based than dmg based compared to Superiority Complex.

I agree to Mirage mantle is a more passive dodge trait, not a fan of it, but duration is kind of short, means not that power creeped. Mirage as traitline overall has way less access to boons than Chaosline with way less boonduration. IH is a dodge trait, per se not passive, depends on the ambush skills what comes out of it. Condi ambushes are passive and op not IH. The majority of skills in Mirage are active. You have no category 1 passives in it. No random aegis blocks no boonspam on buttons you spam for different reasons (except the short reggen or protection after each dodge). Renewing Oasis is also more of a passive dodge trait (no one would waste a dodge only for the reggen proc, at least barely, could save your life when running around with a burn stack on low hp it can mean live or die when you dodge only for the reggen and condi dmg reduction). But not powercreeped. Also reggen barely will carry low reaction time and facetanking key burst skills. Passive reggen procts are the least problem in terms of passive carry and needs to be accompanied by a lot of other passive facetank sustain to carry bad players remarkable. That is only given when combining Mirage with Chaosline. Mirage whole nature is build around active dodging and getting dmg and sustain from hat. You can spec it kind of passive and noobcarry when going for reggen and prot on dodge and stunbreak on dodge. This would be a similar passive low skill ceiling way of playing Mirage but still not powercreeped in the boon access (EM stunbreak is broken tho). But the most common traitchoice with Desert Distortion and IH is pretty active and high skill ceiling (at least on power). During Chaos is per se simple passive or at least low skill ceiling facetank sustain with boon procs by either braindead spamming skills for other purposes or simple passive random procs category 1 worthy.

Chaosline: Minor traits passive procs category 1 at specific points, adept traits not rly passive just op in its rewards or low skill ceiling facetank sustain, not used (Illusionary Defense). Auspicious Anguish half of it completely passive category 1, the distortion part is active and kind of skillful the whole trait overall just op in its reward and eleminates the last weakness Chaosline had (condis). Chaotic Transference low skill ceiling facetank sustain, Chaotic Dampening one totally passive and one active part. Overall low skill ceiling facetank sustain from protection and lower cds for less punishment of skillwaste on a sustainy facetank weapon for even more boon spam carry. Chaotic Interruption, active basic mechanic highly skillbased but either broken in its reward deleting all skilled aspect of that trait (old CI) or unused now (and too random in its reward will prevent active and tactical uses from the player and his opponent). PU completely passive procs during stealthspam abuse, by design a broken low skill ceiling trait rewarding a per se low skillceiling defense mechanic (stealth) even more, also provides low effort bait mechanic by simply staelthstacking instead active outplaying opponents defensive skills, random procs means neither the player nor opponents can work with it tactical. Random Aegis and protection are passive passive procs near category 1. Bountiful Disillusionment boons on click so not category 1 passive but still non of the boons have impact on the shatter behavior, they become a passive side effect from shattering for other purposes (or you just spam the shatters on cd for the boons because shatters are useless on condibuilds for their main purpose of applying condi dmg), either way it is just stacking and spamming boons without the player needs to think about it (just like heal on shatter in Inspiration btw). The only boon you would waste a shatter for to actively and reactive counter opponents moves is stabi to cover a stomp or rezz or a cast of a skill to avoid a cc. Funny that the strongest boon on that trait is the only one can lead into active and reactive uses from shatters just to proc that boon as reaction to opponents behavior. Aside form that: just braindead spam to stack boons with a power creeped long duration. Means during you can spec Mirage active and high skill ceiling you can't do that by using Chaosline at all, not even if you would want to. The only skillful and active things in Chaos are half of Auspicious Anguish but it is overall op and you have a massive passive carry included or CI what could be active and skilled but the reward is kitten and too random for active and skilled uses and tactical plays from the Mesmer or his opponent. No matter what traits you pick in Chaos, the moment you use that traitline you are carried and the build has lower skill ceiling. During traits in Duelling/ Mirage are per se less passive or less power creeped and the few you could consider more passive and lower skill ceiling can be completely avoided by using other clearly active trait alternatives in the traitline (like using blind on f3 instead reflect after dodge, using Desert Distortion over protection on dodge, using IH over EM on power builds).

Chaos beats Duelling and Mirage in its passive and noobcarry low skillceiling nature by far. Is also power creeped in its boonspam defense/offense (why even offensive boons in a defensive traitline?) and the overall rewards the traitline gives. It provides way more non reactive facetank sustain even on active skill activation, and brainless spam from skills for non reactive perma self buffs with boons by simple on-cd-spam of skills, means even the active traits in Chaos have still low skill ceiling.

One thought about Arcane Thievery i had: I think you are right with what you say, when you imply that Arcane Thievery is meant as condi remove in the first place. But i don't think it is meant like that. It is an on hit skill for the most parts, to selfbuff with boons also by on hit boonsteal and doing dmg by condi transfer. For a good condiremove it would be way to strong with all the side rewards. If you want a simple and effective condi remove Arcane should not be your choice. And for that i think it would be fair to give this on hit skill, that is meant to be a reactive skill, a longer cast time and dodgeable animation. Defensive condi remove is not the purpose of the skill i think, it is more an offensive skill and for that should be dodgeable by animation and casttime. If Anet thinks, they want Mesmer to have such a strong skill as useful condi remove they could change quickness into resistance and give it casttime as you suggested but maybe would be power creeped op then. No clue...

I'm loving how you argue that the traitline you consider as skilled contains few passives but it's fine because they are little efficient. While you take care to don't talk about the passives efficiency in the traitline you want to nerf :) .

I disagree about you opinion on cat 2. Particulary about vigor : sure the player have to push a key to active an evade. But you miss the point that there is skills who give vigor when you click it and vigor who auto-proc from whatever. Mean pushing a utility or weapon skill who give x sec vigor is different from having vigor on crit during normal rotation. Note that actually, most meta-build have a good vigor/endurance generation while not having to pop it actively. Mean it's more a "I do normal rotation and I get vigor as a cherry" than a "I use this skill to get vigor". Same for aegis and protection, you have skill and combo who are dedicated to pop it and there is ways to auto-proc it. It's weird to consider that a combo or dedicated skill whose only goal is to get protection is at the same level as an auto-proc protection. (Basically protection on chaos armor combo is different from protection when you reach 75%.)Guys will prefer BD over PU in the current condi mirage meta. Then we can discuss about the efficiency of having 1/5 chance of auto-proc aegis for a GM. (And about rng in general.).

I disagree about cat 3 too. Of course dodgetraits are passive, they remove clone death trait just because of that... Mean with or without the on dodge effect, you will push your dodge button defensively. The question is not how strong it is but the fact that with or without it you will dodge. There is only plus to have effect on this because all the combat system is around it. Mean look at war evade, look at pre-nerf Holo bomb evade, look at mesmer old clone death, look at current IH & miragecloak. Than when the effect become really important it start to be interesting to burn evade offensively and we go to the active effect but it's only a little part of the base concept of evades. You will normally do way more defensive evade than offensive (as long as you haven't god positionning with +1ing everytimes.). Even considering your sword evade, it will be more used defensively to evade big attacks than to rupt the big attacks because you have more value evading something launching than trying to anticipate an attack that the opponent can fake, particulary considering the 1 sec delay before the CC. Basically using offensively sword ambush is in a situation where you want to pressure a low health target or you are +1 someone.So there is 2 view to consider about dodgetraits but most of time I put them in passive style.One more example : the protection on mirage dodge : you really think that a player will think "I will dodge to get protection during 1 sec to mitigate next incoming damage.". No the true is : "I take this trait because other are bad and it give me little more sustain on dodge".Mirages reggen and protection after dodge traits are ok because they have a bad duration while 3 sec protection on a 15 sec CD is passively op in chaos... cough cough. you know that Mirage traitline give near the same passive regen and protection than chaos ? under vigor during 15 sec : 3 sec protection on mirage, 8 sec regen. Versus 3 and 10 for chaos. And the more the fight duration increase, the more mirage go ahead chaos.

How can you find the GS ambush balancing fine while saying the Staff ambush is passive while they work exactly the same : you evade, your illusions does damage. The only difference is between the non-ambush phases where staff clone auto put condi. Moreover, Staff ambush are way easier to evade than GS ambush in this regard GS ambush can be considered more viable than Staff ambush.

Agree about cat4. Egostim is lazy concept like superiority complex. While we have glamour untraited since....

So about what I mentionned :Critical infusion is IMO passive like explained in the what I don't agree with your cat2. (that said it's an overnerf trait compared to other class.)Sharper image is, you will not use a skill to inflict bleed particulary, you will pop illusions btw and it come like a cherry That"s the difference with duelist's discipline where you have to use pistol skill.Evasive mirror is too much random to really be active mean you evade the first key skill from the opponent, it proc, then he just have to pewpewting you. It's basically what happend in a condi mrage mirror duel : the bad one will engaging on pistol, making the opponent to proc the mirror. While the good one will engaging in staff, then swap pistol to bursting the opponent. It's pure passive and opponent dependant, you can't actively use it if you aren't facing an oister.( Joke history : The best part about this trait is that the more it's nerf, the better PU get efficient because before with reflect on manipulation for example you shouldn't proc reflect before casting PU or you should brun an evade to nullify the reflect. Yeah PU was more skilled before :) )Master fencer is passive, you really think even good players will stop pressuring the opponent to not proc it because there will potentially be a windows to more burts later ? No, moreover if the opponent heal or you take damage, it will not proc and it will kitten your prepatation. What happen in reality, is that players do their normal rotation and try to maintain the highest fury uptime as they can with this autoproc.Deceptive Evasion is passive, last time is way really used actively was during vanilla to pop clone then F1 shatter more damage. You will never currently offensively pop a clone to shatter. it's just a capital gain of basic mesmer mechanics you give more main ressources when you dodge (and put more pressure with clone auto/IH.).

About mirage vs chaos I already answer in the why I don't agree on the end of cat3 answer but basically I think you are viewing mirage line in pink and chaos line in dark while they are pretty similar (Mean you are contradicting yoursefl on some explanations..). I will add that has you know I consider more PU as a gameplay definind trait (what we lack.) than as a op passive trait. (Mean is mesmer didn't get this passive damage modifier from egotism and superiority complex, core burst should be bad and PU come to a niche again.) I prefer 100 time having a niche trait than one more dead trait.Chaotic dampening is active, come on, because it give protection it's passive ?? Come on it's more active than even most traits in domination in your skilled builds.Bountiful Disillusionment currently is more active than passive currently as you will using f2 to maintain vigor and stab to counter CC (it's not the chronobunker period.).About staff : it does near zero direct damage so hopufully it proc boons and condi. Mean having a weapon used only to positionning with phase retreat isn't fun huh ?

So no, IMO chaos didn't beat duelling and mirage in terms of passive. It's at the same level of mirage and more active than duelling.

About At, sincerely currently it's the only condiclear in the condimirage metabuild and if there weren't weaver and ranger in PvP I prefer way more MoR efficiency. But it's the only tool who can make you win against weaver and give you much help against rangers.

Some stuff you didn't understand correct from what i said (i ofc made a difference between an active and timed proc of protection or aegis from a player by using a skill and a passive proc from a trait, thats why i said passive passive vs passive active from a passive vigor proc). And my categories are all about skills having different amount of passivity included (means none of them is 100% active) but the lvl of passivity and for that the lvl of skill ceiling/ floor is very different between them. I don't think it makes sense to just explain again and do another wall of text. If you don't understand and don't agree i will just accept that. But i stand by my points why Choas has a way higher amount of category 1 passives than both other lines, as also has a higher lvl of passivity in the traits you have a passive and active part included but are not category 1 and from that a clearly lower skill ceiling/ floor from Chaosline compared to both other lines. And a lower skill ceiling/floor even in the very few active traits of Chaos. Chaos provides noobfriendly facetank sustain on the defensive side and on-cd skill spam less reactive gameplay on the offensive side even on their more active traits. Me playing Mesmer with Chaosline or not makes the difference in skill that is needed to play a Mesmer very clear for me too. Means my practical experience (inside and outside, playing Mesmer myself and playing vs Mesmers) goes very well conform with what i explained in my previous post.

Btw they removed clone death trait because cleaving clones is one basic counter to Mesmer that got completely undermined by that trait, it was completely passive category 1 and not even a dodgetrait, no clue why you mention that at that point. You let clones live you eat condis from 100% passive autoattack of clones and have no counter to shatters by killing them before they get shattered or you kill them and eat the condis they give by dying. This trait was ridiculous nonsense in terms of balance. It was a good decision to kill that trait. One of the best balance moves Anet ever did.

What you said wasn't always clear and english isn't my main langage which didn't help yeah.Mean sometimes you write something then put few exception on a bloc.But I maintained that chaos is at the same level as mirage talking about active/passive view. Again look at prot and regen passive application from the two lines. Btw 2 minor mirage traits are used to the spec.On dead clones was a high counter against melee rollfacing which was counterd by single target skills. Moreover on dead never kill someone on their own looking at the damage output. Current war evade is way more lethal than debiliting dissipation ever been. That's another contradiction which have to do with dodgetrait being passive or not.

You give up a better condi clear for a skill that has more offensive purpose when using Arcane over other condi clear utilities to counter no condi meta builds while still having a chance to use Arcane as condi clear when needed. That is your decision. That is no argument against a better animation and a little bit higher casttime.Put this in perspective of other class condiclear access and what sacrifice they does before writting obvious sentences like that please.

As said i agreed to the protection on dodge trait being kind of passive (not as passive as a completely game generated procs like in Chaos) but for a dodge trait (which can be pretty active when designed well) it is clearly on the more passive side and also has a low skill ceiling similar to Chaosline. I also said that i never was a fan of that trait just for that reasons. But at least you can chose more active alternatives in Mirage during Chaosline is overall more passive and way lower skill ceiling even on active skills compared to Mirage line and even more compared to Duelling what mostly only has (passive) dmg multiplier and not passive mistake cover. A passive vigor proc is way more active in what the player needs to do to capitalize from the passive proc then a passive and even random aegis or protection proc what just enables also noobfriendly facetank gameplay instead active and reactive dodge gameplay.

I don't need to put other classes condi clear in perspective. First it doesn't matter if other skills/traits or classes are more op or more braindead for the analysis if something is unhealthy mechanic or bad designed and too strong compared to the playerskill it needs to be used well. Also i was talking about the basic purpose of that skill, that is "on hit" offensive in the first place and not a condi clear. For that it should have a good animation and a dodgeable casttime. That is rly simple balance logic and it would ofc count for all other classes condi removes the same way. When they have attacking, offensive main purposes they should be dodgeable on purpose not only by lucky random dodges in a game where classes have too many dodges and can random dodge by standard rotations, without even being designed to use dodges for more than just pure defensive attack avoidance. Your argument that it gets lucky random dodged that often doesn't justify that the skill doesn't even give the ability to dodge it reactive on purpose. Justifying one op and bad designed thing with another one is never a good balance argument.

I mean i am for reasons absolutely against that one dodge change on Mirage, because it is obvious unlogic to overlimit a spec that is based on doing more with dodges than all other classes which only need to use dodges pure defensive. I guess Anet did the mistake to think that Mirage has stronger dodges and for that should have less of them. That this is a flawed logic and contrary to the spec design isn't as obvious on the first view (at least at the point where you overnerf the ability to dodge). It gets more obvious when you consider that Mirage ALREADY has less dodge than most classes while being in higher need of that dodge resource to even work in a skillbased and more active way. That was ok in terms of Mirage having stronger dodges while not overnerfing the resource it needs to work. The one dodge change is simple an overnerf that lowers the ability of active plays with the IH mechanic and for that makes Mirage more passive and lower skill ceiling and not more.

Np with your english, it is not like my engish is flawless either and my wall of text might be pretty annoying and confusing to read when you don't know what i want to say.

I still don't get what the clone death trait has to do with dodge traits.

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I don't believe increasing the initiative on thief weapon skills to be the proper solution. It's not very fun to only be able to use 2-3 skills before you're out of initiative. I think in PvP and WvW initiative should be kept at the same value as PvE, however I believe the solution to preventing spammy combos is to give all thief weapon skills (aside from autoattack) a 1 or 2 second cooldown. This could be solely in combat to allow for some form of strategy and setup. This would allow for counterplay like placing aoes to make thieves take longer to traverse the map with shortbow 5 or placing them in combat before you get attacked to keep them from using 2 powerful skills in a row.

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@Eos.4269 said:I don't believe increasing the initiative on thief weapon skills to be the proper solution. It's not very fun to only be able to use 2-3 skills before you're out of initiative. I think in PvP and WvW initiative should be kept at the same value as PvE, however I believe the solution to preventing spammy combos is to give all thief weapon skills (aside from autoattack) a 1 or 2 second cooldown. This could be solely in combat to allow for some form of strategy and setup. This would allow for counterplay like placing aoes to make thieves take longer to traverse the map with shortbow 5 or placing them in combat before you get attacked to keep them from using 2 powerful skills in a row.

It would only make it less fun to play thief without fixing anything, big difference instead of using 3 then 3 then dodge now thiefs will 3 dodge 3 wowsies.also it fixes nothing about sb 5 being what it is, maybe this shit actually should have cooldown. and proper one

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@"Leonidrex.5649" said:It would only make it less fun to play thief without fixing anything, big difference instead of using 3 then 3 then dodge now thiefs will 3 dodge 3 wowsies.It's not like you can say only being able to use a few skills before you run out of initiative is fun either. On top of that the high initiative cost further solidifies trickery's already powerful spot. Dodge is 3/4s so even with a 1 second cooldown 1/4s is a long time, and burning through dodges too quickly is bad.also it fixes nothing about sb 5 being what it is, maybe this kitten actually should have cooldown. and proper oneAdding "proper cooldowns" (assuming you mean cooldowns similar to other weapon sets) would take away from what thief is and likely be incredibly harmful to the viability of thief as a whole in pvp. As for shortbow 5, short skill cooldowns in combat would make it less useful for disengage.

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@Eos.4269 said:

@"Leonidrex.5649" said:It would only make it less fun to play thief without fixing anything, big difference instead of using 3 then 3 then dodge now thiefs will 3 dodge 3 wowsies.It's not like you can say only being able to use a few skills before you run out of initiative is fun either. On top of that the high initiative cost further solidifies trickery's already powerful spot. Dodge is 3/4s so even with a 1 second cooldown 1/4s is a long time, and burning through dodges too quickly is bad.also it fixes nothing about sb 5 being what it is, maybe this kitten actually should have cooldown. and proper oneAdding "proper cooldowns" (assuming you mean cooldowns similar to other weapon sets) would take away from what thief is and likely be incredibly harmful to the viability of thief as a whole in pvp. As for shortbow 5, short skill cooldowns in combat would make it less useful for disengage.

harming viability of thief in pvp is something that should happen, in no teamcomp is thief badand thief spamming dodges is a thing like it or not, sometimes you just gotta dodge 3 times in a row, expecially thief since they cant take as much hit as most other classes.making class unfun and clunky is not the right way.balance class without making them unfun, its not very hard, just little bit of effort.

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