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Balance Patch Preview - PvP

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@"Jazz.4639" said:

  • Mirage Cloak: This trait now reduces the mirage's endurance by 50 in competitive modes

@Odik.4587 said:@"Jazz.4639"

im not sure i understand what you want to do to mirage cloak (now reduce endurance by 50??), does that mean as daredevil has 3 dodges mirages now only have one???
oO also why you want to reduce evade uptime on a spec that is build around doing things with his dodges and has already less dodges than most other classes in current state? doesnt rly make sense to me. the times mirage (not using chaosline) can dodge too often are already over. better reduce vigor duration given by chaosline.That was exactly thoughts but its not likely they understand what they are doing or would change it.F for fellow mesmer players (if any left) , the first chrono, now mirage (especially for power ones).

no they cant be serious with that, some early april fool or something? that cant be real, it makes no sense at all... ahahahaha … just no! esp now im forced to dodge no matter if i need to just to not waste endurance reggen when my one dodge bar is full? how does that add skill need and more active gameplay? it is the absolute opposite… dumbed down we go (nick cave) yeah yeah yeah…NO NO NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (cant believe….)

need to sleep but im actually shocked…. crying and laughing at same timeI'm sorry to hear this but I absolutely understand you and your reaction. I couldnt believe as well that this some sort of april fools. Many nerfs are nerfs for the sake of nerfing(that didnt deserve to get even touched in the first place), some stuff that must get a nerf got a free pass or almost not nerfed (L.rod, warrior GS F1, probably more becase it was 3 AM for me and I did read only warrior, also FC got a buff...?).About mirage evade... 1 dodge when daredevil it at 3... Chrono is still would be frustrating,clunky and unfun to play (they did nothing to improve it at any way). Someone dont want to see any mesmers out there.
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Hi Everyone, Today we’re previewing the upcoming balance update. We’re starting with a bit of process and general thoughts, then following up with a pile of patch notes. Note that this post is identic

@Multicolorhipster.9751 said:


  • Defy Pain: Increased cooldown from 90 seconds to 300 seconds
  • Last Stand: Increased cooldown from 90 seconds to 300 seconds

Please consider in the future just removing these two traits and replacing them with something interesting going forward. Auto proc passives are some of the most boring traits in the game anyway and nobody wants them there, not even people playing defense warrior.

300 second cooldowns is just absurd. Nobody in their right mind would take either at that CD. If that's the goal, then those two traits may as well be reworked into something else, as well as all passive saves that still exist.

I can see what they're trying to do since very often those CD's would still be low enough to save someone at an appropriate time very often, I get the same mixed feeling about the cooldown time, but in the bigger picture both of these traits can save you from a certain dead in many different scenarios whether be together or apart.

It's not often said but being immune to critical hits is a big deal with Last Stand, the fact it allows the Warrior to not get CC and survive any Power bursts is a pretty big deal, also all that Vigor that can be obtained.

Defy Pain feels more like a budget Last Stand which looking at the trait position seems to make sense, although this is a double edged suggestion that perhaps it would be better to proc at something lower like 10 or 25% Health instead of 50% since using it with Last Stand feels counter productive right now.

Both these traits can mean an entire team focus could be wasted and turn the fight around given the context of the next patch, this is actual what all those passive traits seems to do in my mind, being immune to a team focus..

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Why were coefficients targeted so heavily instead of base numbers or Amulet Adjustments/nerfs? Wouldn't it be easier and clearer to reduce the overall stats available and maybe normalise/increase health pools, rather than adjusting every skill individually while only addressing real outliers in coefficients and using the opportunity to leave underused weapons as is, even though it would make for a less initially impressive list?

Seems like you would just want to maximise Precision, Condition Damage/Ferocity, Vitality and Toughness now, then spam CC skills and AA's.

No point in building Expertise and Concentration if Condis and Boons last only 1 Second base duration (which are gone as Amulet choices in PvP completely anyway).No point in building healing power if skills have a 0.0015 scaling of it.Power, while still a decent damage increase has significantly lost in value as well, with many skills having their coefficient nerfed from something like 1.5 to 0.1, or even 0.01.

I absolutely agree with tuning the power creep down, but I do have to say, skills like Mantra of Liberation, an elite, granting 1 Stack of Stability for 1 second, every 45 Seconds, or Traits like Defy Pain giving 2 seconds of damage immunity on a 5 Minute CD, just read to be extremely unfun to use, rather than just brought in line.

Things like the Necro Sceper power coefficient being tuned down (or Dagger MH and other unsued weapons for that matter), just make me scratch my head in confusion if this was just supposed to be a long list of "changes", or what the goal there was.

Scourge was promised further adjustments and redesigns of Necro following the Shade changes, making it a fairly terrible spec. Now this patch brings the removal of the Deadshot Amulet, essentially nailing the coffin of Necro shut completely, on top of nerfing already increasingly lacklustre feeling (grandmaster) Traits like Dhumfire to 1/3 of what they were, further reducing corruption capabilities, even on already underwhelming and unused weapons like Dagger MH, etc., while nerfing some key damage skills and Traits to 1/12 th of their original value, while keeping their atrociously slow cast times in cases like Reaper Shroud 5.I just don't see what this profession is supposed to do in PvP (or anywhere else really) anymore.

With reduced Stability access as well as durations and increased Stunbreak Cooldowns while often doubled disable durations, it seems like the game will revolve around coordinating perma CC's while staring at almost minute long CD's.

It's most likely overall another "step in the right direction", but how many of those did we have over the last 7+ years, with lacklustre or completely missing follow ups..

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@Project exa.3204 said:

@"Alphonia.5731" said:It's nice to see boon intensive builds and builds that run bunker but still get insane dps mostly getting eviscerated from the meta game. Even better is to see boon soulbeast be (hopefully) entirely removed from the meta game (probably wont be with the change to stunbreak into protection and vigor). However with the pushes to lower power level, it means that bunker builds that exist just to stall are getting an insane buff. Most builds that are affected by this have their power reduced (which didn't matter on some of them as they had virtually no killing potential in the first place) while the healing/survivability of the builds remain mostly unaffected as the only thing for them that was significantly nerfed were the healing skills themselves and not the side skills that enhance survivability.As great as it is to see damage reduced so it isn't as much of a 3 second kill fiesta, there are still major problems that haven't really been addressed. Enduring Swing on Ranger should be reverted back to its evasion state rather than endurance state as it only feeds into the overarching problem of the Wilderness Survival tree being a requirement (way too good compared to most options) of playing ranger in PvP. The reasoning behind the nerf never even made sense in the first place as it went something along the lines of "feels luck based" even though it's just a auto chain that is easy to see and respond to. Sword on ranger needs more help than it has needed ever. Almost no one uses sword on ranger anymore as its evasion skill (Serpent Strike) has been locked behind using a suicide leap and the reason to use a main hand generally speaking is the access to off-hand Axe. It also doesn't help that Hornet Sting is way too slow to dodge anything effectively and pretty much is used exclusively for movement.Also feels like some classes were removed from the game while other classes were barely affected. d/p thief still does insane damage on a stat that they already pretty much max on as stealth still remains as a stupid mechanic that is extremely difficult to punish. Would like to see thieves become revealed if they go for a stealth attack and it misses (maybe exclude it to apply reveal when being manually blocked or rolled through) so they don't just keep trying for a stealth attack since they are completely free to do so. Necromancer pretty much just got significantly more health for free as all damage has been reduced for scaling percentages while the necromancer shroud health amount stays the same. There are probably many more things that I wont talk about in this post since it is already too long like blocking for (x) seconds is insanely strong in this meta game as well as rolling becoming closer to being on par as running tank stats.Now as for PvE, there are still things that need changing that people have been complaining about for years. Chronomancer still feels like hot garbage with Well zones being the main drawback of the class as the boons you supply via the wells are the pinnacle of your existance but since they are so small it sometimes makes it really frustrating/not worth it to walk to a smallish zone for like 1 buff. Druid in PvE still is as frustrating as ever as spirits are your main reason for existing but they are inconsistent as to how they work as well as Glyphs don't do enough to be run over 3 side spirits. It'd be nice if spirits were made more consistent as to what they are affected by, because as of this point Spirits sometimes take tons of damage from things and sometimes they don't take like any damage at all. An example of this is like during Fractals of the Mist your spirits die in seconds to flux bomb but take like 0 damage from being inside 5 fire AoEs from Molten Firestorm and it makes little to no sense for the difference between the two. Keeping Spirits alive is really frustrating too as applying regen (generally Healing Spring will be the regen applier) to spirits sometimes just doesn't work even though the game should be prioritizing placing regen onto that spirit as it is at significantly lower health (this happens extremely often/consistently with Spirit of Nature causing it to die unexpectedly). On the same lines of the spirits needing buffs, the trait in Nature Magic called "Nature's Vengeance" is useless/debilitating on ranger as -33% health decay reduces the amount you heal to the spirits as druid and thus makes Celestial Avatar bar regeneration slower as well as the spirit activated skills granting boons is irrelevant as half of them you already provide by yourself and you don't generally want to want to spam cast your activated spirit abilities as it's just a loss in dps and moves them all over the place. A nice fix for this would be making the trait increase the Max Health of the Spirits by like 3x and switching the health loss be a base amount rather being a percent of health (don't remember if this is already how it works or not) as well as making the activated spirit skill part being changed to whenever it reapplies it's passive ability.By the way, changing a triggered cooldown from like 90 seconds to 300 seconds is basically removing the ability entirely. Did you know that PvP matches last on average like 660 seconds? WOW! Not to mention that Stoneform being nerfed extremely hampers the ability of Power Ranger to make decisions for greedy dps or to even go into melee range to try and cleave targets.

As a Soulbeast this resonates with me. I don't mind admitting that SB has exceeded its original role and needs to be dialed back.The pet meta sucks right now, because rangers pigeonholed themselves into [smokescale, Jacaranda, Siamoth, Gazelle] for maximum dps / sustain.

The only ranger nerf I've ever really disagreed with was the GS evasion swing change to enduring swing.I also agree that mechanically there's something imbalanced about why no ranger in Gold++ does not pack Wilderness Survival.I know I'd love to play with skirmishing again, but I can't because WS is just too useful. Aside from SB that leaves only one trait open. SB/WS/MM or SB/WS/BM-Eros

Same reason warrior runs discipline and mes runs dueling. It's a line that plays to the class' strength and covers their weaknesses. In the case of WS it gives ranger much needed survivability in the form of more dodges, protection, a soft cc on every heal cast, healing over time, cleanse on good utilities with fury added and a get out of jail for 1 cc. It's a solid line.

A war with no discipline is an easy fight

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I can feel the game orientation but i'm surprised to see that Thieves and Ele are looking still pretty strong in this "new game".

Have to see ingame but to me both of these profession will be still verry powerfull even in the context of this new meta.But dont get me wrong, i'm still not to pro enough to see if as thief few initiatives points, withdraw and +10 sec cd on smoke screen is a huge thing or if its still playable. We'll see. Also i dont see elementaliste lesser tanky than it is atm even more with global damage nerfs.

I hope this is the first time i read the texte and i dont see everything but to me the game direction is good, but there is still unbalance things that are obvious to see.

I bet a powerfull team composition :

Guard, Nec, Thief, Thief, Mesmer

Edit : Earthseker ?

Backstab: Reduced base power coefficient from 1.2 to 0.9. Reduced flanking power coefficient from 2.4 to 1.8 (invisible safe and instant skill, pretty impossible to punish even if you guess)

Eviscerate: Reduced power coefficient from 2.0/2.5/3.0 to 1.333/1.666/2.0. (800ms animation pretty easy to punish or dodge)

Full adrenaline eviscerate vs invisible backstab ?‍♀️?‍♀️

What i would like to see would be :

If you miss your backstab beacause enemy dodged, or you didnt aim well → cant stealth for 8 secondes. That would force the thieves to leave or being vulnerable for missing is spike.

Would be more skillfull profession.

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@Shao.7236 said:I can see what they're trying to do since very often those CD's would still be low enough to save someone at an appropriate time very often, I get the same mixed feeling about the cooldown time, but in the bigger picture both of these traits can save you from a certain dead in many different scenarios whether be together or apart.


Personally even when I use those skills, my main experience was defy pain autoproccing from some stray hit from some condi mirage clone; not even breaking CC, or being at all useful for the entirety of its 2 seconds, and then having waiting 88 seconds for it to probably happen again.

Last stand is easier to justify, since it actually does something outside of the passive, but ime; the passive itself would just be tossed away by some opening throw-away CC, or some stray downstate skill.There's cool boon strip/corrupt/steal counterplay to it and balanced stance in general, but really that's just more reason to take RR or Cleansing Ire from the get-go. Or better yet, just forget all that noise and go Strength instead and take rampage because it essentially does the same thing, only infinitely better.And at least there's other viable options on the last row in Defense. If you wanted something in the middle row that wasn't boring and bordering useless you'd be kitten out of luck.

I can see what they're trying to do too, but they don't need to tack on another 298 seconds of nothing to encourage people to play Strength SPB instead.

I'm not out to argue for or against profession balance because I know this is all likely to change in a few more months. I would just prefer if there was something more interesting to choose from in the Defense line. The middle line/master traits at the very least. Booooring.

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As for the whole "condi didn't get hit much" debate here.While it is true, that the skills themselves didn't see much in terms of less stacks and whatnot. The duration nerfs and CD-increases coupled with the removal of atrocious Condi-duration buffs from runes and amulets, they got hit appropriately imo.

33% expertise amulets are gone.Runes that increase specific condi-durations by 50% (which was nuts to begin with) are gone.And most condi skills saw CD increases.

Primordial stance for weaver (for instance) saw a 50% cut in its burn duration....which IS 50% less damage.Would have liked a similar treatmeant for GoEP, but it's hard to say from just "on paper"-changes.

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warror GS not nerfed enough, still too much dmg or too much mobility/evade, since f1 got reworked into dmg. Bull charge needs evade removed. And in general nerf to endurance regen more.

Thief dagger storm shouldnt cap or even reduced movement speed more while channeling.

Necro more nerf to core bunker spec aka signet-spite/deathmagic/soulreaping build.Quickness reaper trait need nerf- maybe remove crit dmg modifier and totaly remove quickness immediately when you exit shroud.Doom fear casting time will be very unreactive and will feel slugish to play.

Also reducing necro boon removal with dagger/axe while increasing dagger warriors doesnt feel right ?. Axe dagger necro 1 boon removal will be very unreliable if you want to remove specific boon when it poops up. Which will promote just random spam more since it will be less impactfull.

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@Fantasylife.7981 said:WHERE IS THE CONDITION AND TICK DMG NERF????? all I see is power ok where is Condition dmg and tick nerf?????

They are nerfing conditions by nerfing amulets and runes Mr.OvereactionIf you read that part, maybe with your brain, you will understand instead of only reading that parts that interests you.

@Back on topicLoving the wide spread hammer, it's much needed and long overdue. But one thing I resonate with ppl in here is to please take a look at stealth duration, specially thief's Shadow Arts trailine that are still untouched.

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Really looking forward to the patch with its much needed direction to a slower and more skillful gameplay. But seeing the changes raises a few concerns regarding the "spammyness" of certain aspects:

  • Condition effectiveness is tackled very heavily on a general level via runes and amulet changes in PvP, but i spotted very few cd increases regarding condition application. My fear is, that this promotes a "spam even harder" playstyle, instead of a careful use of application skills.
  • It looks to me that the boon play isn't touched very much despite application of might stacks. What about all the other boons like protection, resistance, fury, even swiftness? Besides some small changes to boon durations and boon rips, I fear it will still be as spammy as before.
  • In general I expected to see more cd increases, to make up for all the cd reductions that happened in the past. Right now i am not so sure if "cooldowns will be felt".
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I really like the direction of this patch in general. Its hard to tell what will be strong and what wont be. But looking from my own point of view from my main class, which is druid/ranger: Druid was already weak in pvp and it seems to just get as harsh nerfs as all other classes which will render it to still be quite bad. Scaling down healing cuz dmg is scaled down as well is fine. But why remove the stunbreak on entering CA with Druidic Clarity AND lowering stealth duration from celestial shadow? The removal of that stunbreak is not necesary especially since the amount of CC in this game doesnt seem to get rly nerfed. Nerfs of rugged growth, dolyak stance, etc etc I can live with. But the removal of that stunbreak is unnecesarily harsh for an already underperforming class. Oh, and then the dmg nerfs to all pets, meh... then at least give those pets something in return you know. Only reason to use pets now is for their F2 basically, and only a few pets have a decent F2.

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@c u again.3267 said:why isn't ele rez glyph getting nerfed lol>

@c u again.3267 said:so 2x core dp thief and 2x weaver is ur desired metagame? i'm out :)

idk, you cant really make such assumption when every class has gotten nerfed

core dp got barely touched compared to every other class

Withdraw cooldown increasez weapon damage nerf, smoke screen cooldown increase, initiative increase on shadow shot, damage decrease.

Shadow arts alone is not overperfming.

Does not remove reveal, what the hell do you want?

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@Crab Fear.1624 said:

@Fueki.4753 said:Since you make all the skills that have CC deal next to no damage, can we also have skills that grant Evade deal next to no damage?Also, it looks like you barely touched the biggest pest in PvP, which is Stealth.

Yeah and skills that grant blocks, aegis, and blind should also be next to no damage too.

We should hit skills that do damage after that

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