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Balance Patch Preview - WvW


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So sad to see WvW walked off the plank because of some ill-conceived notions of what balance should look like. After all the feedback that you STILL intend to ship this patch tells us you DON'T care about player feedback or intend to keep the game mode alive in a meaningful way. People have lost like all trust in you as a developer, and there is NO coming back from any egregious mistakes that drive people away. The only good choice is to just throw out this patch and make reasonable small changes like you've done before. You are LITERALLY taking what fun we have left in WvW and are throwing it into a dumpster fire.

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@Nunya.4920 said:This update seems to have broken my ranger and wvw siege for me. My barrage skill on LB wont snap to the enemy, it just rains down on my head, and in wvw I can no longer use arrow carts or cannons, but I can still use trebs and catas. Wow, I just looked at what they did to ranger. I could barely kill anything b4, now I'm a dead duck. So much for loving this game. Anet really does not care, do they ?

The patch hasn’t hit. Likely sometime after the 24th.

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@Strider Pj.2193 said:

(P.S There are only like 10 support to a group of 60 as opposed to 1 support for 5 in PvP)

Because a 1:6 ratio is so different from a 1:5 ratio?

It is when one person becomes a rally bot it its. If a train ccs all but one guy and he is downed and that have 5 downs hitting your one, they can all rally and it doesn't feel nice. Not to mention being the 1 man out who cant support themselves as stab is now niche and less common. But this is constructive and thank you for the reply!

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@Gage.4920 said:

(P.S There are only like 10 support to a group of 60 as opposed to 1 support for 5 in PvP)

Because a 1:6 ratio is so different from a 1:5 ratio?

It is when one person becomes a rally bot it its. If a train ccs all but one guy and he is downed and that have 5 downs hitting your one, they can all rally and it doesn't feel nice.

No... they can’t all rally. Only one rally for one defeated.

Not to mention being the 1 man out who cant support themselves as stab is now niche and less common. But this is constructive and thank you for the reply!

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Going over this balance patch, i believe that its going to bring the game back to a decent power creep. My only concern really is splitting damage from CC abilities. They were in the game since launch and it wasn't broken or unbalanced back then. I would suggest that you nerf the damage heavily to make the skill more focused on the CC aspect but dont gut the damage from the skill entirely. Using a hammer on warrior and 2 of your skills only do damage will feel pretty bad especially in this state of how slow the animation are. Most of the skill animations can be dodger quiet easily by skilled players. But overall i agree that we needed a power squish for a very long time. The power/condi damage had been rising for a long time with zero growth from the Defensive side. When a full tank can still get 1 shot there are some balancing issues. Much love and keep up the great work with the changes. P.S The updates and communicating with us really helps.

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Warnings: This whole thing is a wall of text. ;) This is meant as general "feedback", usually for both PvP and WvW. Will use your own titles for easy browsing. Do excuse possible errors, my eyes are dancing over the text now as it took a while to write this.

I’m not an ancient or a decent player, I’m simply a player, someone who studied Psychology in university and lead or been part of Staff for many online projects for more than a decade, and I may very well be wrong about some aspects/everything I say but mayhaps, this is helpful. I leave number crunching or a zoomed-in analysis to those knowledgeable about such matters. I am all for balance, should said balance make sense. A game should be fun and challenging, with the smallest bit of frustration sprinkled in there and there as the cherry on top, to keep people coming back, not as the whole cake. Also, the “how humans work” part should be the foremost consideration, especially in those game modes, but not only there.The tone is intended to be along the lines of a conversation, observation, questions, and advice-giving (hopefully not coming across as cold, aggressive or anything remotely negative), but text has it’s limitations, especially if we don’t want it to break Guinness records of text length, so please bear with me if something comes across otherwise, as that wasn’t the intent.

I do advise (and expect) multiple test phases before anything is implemented, with sufficiently sized samples of different statistical populations to be considered when making any radical changes. Example: varying knowledge levels of the class, of the game, of PvP, of WvW, of the opponent’s classes, varying levels of gear and of gear and co. combinations, varying levels of execution speed, varying levels of decision making and thought process and reaction to stress stimuli, etc).TL:DR: Consult with everyone on the spectrum, from newbies to pros, in a specific game mode and the game itself and test any changes in varied contexts before releasing anything onto the live servers. Better yet, hands-on tests and video showcases should come before any implementation talk is touched upon as all this would be quite the shift, indeed.

New ParadigmWhile the point of the necessity of this balance after the game has been out for so long has been already raised (and I’ll admit finding it an extremely valid point), it seems that you are trying to change how both game modes and all 9*3 Professions and their builds (I’m including Core) actually function outside of PvE, which already has its own splits (the need for different gear and builds for Raids, Fractals, Dungeons), while also lumping PvP and WvW together initially, as a first pass.A word of caution: Spot fixes should be timely, but changing things every month or so wouldn't be advisable, as you would be messing periodically with the very nature of how a Spec is played.

PvP and WvWThe idea is uniformity but still splitting the game modes “radically” different” directions? While “targeted adjustments on a per-mode basis” will be needed, as in one of them we are dealing with larger battles (unless you discount the roamers, scouts, and 1v1ners - yeah, those take shop in the middle of the map in WvW and hurl insults if you mistake them for a teammate in distress instead of mighty heroes-), why is there a need for a drastic “separation”? Are we not fighting vs. other players in both game modes?

The issue: It sounds like the plan is to change the way every spec works, then to also do periodic changes, on top of that, then add separation between PvP and WvW… And yet, we are human. We cannot disregard the effects this has on some very important principles: muscle memory and habits, decision making patterns, conditional behaviors and cause, and effect expectations, class knowledge, gratification, and chemical reactions, and so on.

Possible consequence: People won’t know what and where to “click” how their abilities will act, or if certain things are even going to work the same way tomorrow or in a month, etc.The barrier of entry and re-entry is put in place and it takes a while to jump over it as it currently stands, as not everyone goes in full gear and knowledgeable. I can only imagine it being even worse after the changes, as they would separate game modes and their players further, perhaps forcing them to only play one specific model or to be left in the dust along with the newbies, as all they learned about their class won’t be even 80% valid, and would never reach 100%, as the plan seems to be to make more radical changes every so often.So we are looking at smaller numbers of players interested in fighting other players, players separated by game modes, and with a possible high decline rate of participation, as it will be difficult to adjusting to and keeping up with the radical changes, even when sticking to one game mode.TL:DR: most will pick a game mode and stick with it for however long they can and very little new population would be introduced because expectations won’t even remotely meet their previous realities anymore. It’s the same spec, it’s not supposed to be so radically different just because we’re in another part of the same game now. There’s one thing to do spot adjustment to a specific, restricted number of things, another to require people to relearn a whole spec when switching between game modes.

DamageThe 2.0 criteria.... While all weapons work differently, we also have to factor in additional quickness on top of base attack speed and damage. We also need to talk about the lack of satisfaction when landing a hit and not seeing the enemy’s HP bar move. The brain likes bigger damage numbers. We’re also dealing with big HP pools. Are they scaled properly between each other? I’d expect, say, on Mesmer G5 (which is very low as is) to still do less damage than G3, so skills feel familiar.Marauder amulet and no outside modifiers: There are players that play WvW in Berserker’s or Vipers, with no outside modifiers, not even runes, as most of them are new to the game(mode) and just want to have fun or to build their gear. There are also people out there in full Marauder or Trailblazer with or without runes, sigils, and food. Who has the standing chance? Arguably, skill factors in, but up to what point?I’d say allowing food and enrichments but using a PvP-like system for armor, runes, and sigils will help with the balance and possible issues and to ease the barrier of entry. Or, the option to pick between your own gear and the PvP system-clone, while in WvW.But then again, in time, all the necessary gear can still be acquired, so there wouldn’t be a heavy need for such a change, at the present moment -pre-balance anyway, but afterward...well, good luck to us ungeared folk, we’d be waving at opponents from the floor while they walk away with more than half their health.

Condition damageSo you want to address power creep and add in a long time to kill but also nerf conditions? What about the condi specs? What about people actually using cleanses? Are they not available to them or there are other skills they absolutely need to take instead? Yes, conditions can get out of hand but, considering they are part of the gameplay, even on power specs, shouldn’t they be refined instead of rendered useless?Wouldn’t conditions and buffs help raise the skill level and introduce more variety into the builds? Been hit like a truck by them and hitting back with them like a wet noodle, won’t that push me to be better, get some condi to cleanse and learn how to use it? They are a challenging element (which is a very good thing), a skill level element, not something else to hungrily nerf. Nothing wrong with some balance, as raging frustration should be at a very low level (here I talk like the game didn’t frustrate me to no end even in PvE, the line between challenging and perhaps slightly frustrating content/mechanics/mob scripts, etc should be delicately walked, instead both me and my boyfriend have constantly asked ourselves “Why does this work like this? What was Anet thinking!? You also had an issue with A, B, C….Z element of the game, right?” Anyway, back to the topic at hand), but like DoTs and HoTs are valid things in other games, so should conditions and buffs remain valid in this game.Yes, they can be brutal and yes, they can do almost nothing, in their current state (It takes 1 newb Condi Mirage and 3-5 other newbs to kill a downed player sometimes).By reducing damage, stacks, and duration you are pushing out Condi specs out of the game, which separated GW2 from the generic DoTs and HoTs in other games and gave more variety to the game, even to the power specs, as they also have access to a part of them. Wasn’t variety and the ability to properly customize what you use as a weapon, gear, build-wise to suit your play style preferences and context one of the selling points of this game for so many people? Ah, let's not even start a conversation about marketing here.Question: How does Condi damage scale with the power nerfs (to the ground, I'd assume)? Some people run Viper and the like and that meager power damage helps at times. Would Condi specs still be viable?

Cooldowns and durationsNo. They are already felt. They work a certain way in other game modes already. You are messing with the human element of the game here (all the muscle memory, habits, class knowledge, etc bit mentioned earlier). By greatly reducing damage and deleting Condi options (2 secs of vulnerability or 1 second of quickness or whatever, won’t help me in a fight that would take 2+ minutes, with or without that Condi), you would already be making people feel like their efforts aren’t rewarded or fruitful. I strongly oppose the extension of cooldowns in only certain game modes (and find some skills on too long of a cooldown already. but hey). There’s simply no reason to touch them, considering we will feel the cooldown anyway, as our attacks aren’t as powerful.I may be agreeable to a reasonable damage reduction, provided the cooldowns don’t increase across the board in such manner, and are kept in line across all game modes.What about trait separation? Should a change be considered necessary in one game mode only, cooldowns shouldn’t be the place to look for the game mode specific changes. In general, keeping skills and traits as aligned as possible, across different contexts, should be the main goal of a game and trait separation or whatever it’s called should only be used as a balancing factor only if there’s no other alternative. I know people cry for new elite specs but transforming the existing ones into new ones for PvP and WvW is not, in my opinion, a good idea, for reasons already detailed.

SustainThe first statement makes sense, and longer cooldowns (again, I advise against the longer CDs) should make people less likely to need stronger heals as they would be unfair. In the current meta tho, that ~300-1.5k heal already does nothing for the ~15-20k + health people have tho, nor would lower damage help there either.Here’s where it gets confusing (and applies to PvE as well, especially in LW5 or similar situations, where the enemy ping pongs all over): pulsating heals? You mean stationary heals in a dynamic combat game? Things like pulsating Chrono Wells never really made sense outside of chokepoints (which one should obviously try to avoid)/PvP nodes/tight spaces.

Instant skills and passive traitsI do not feel like I have enough understanding of them or the consequences of those changes to formulate a proper opinion until I see hands-on what those would or could be. Therefore, I will refrain from formulating a proper judgment, but will still say this: counterplay has the possibility to be a great introduction to those game modes, as long as the skills and traits still work in a very familiar way. The change of internal cooldowns on traits - no, leave as is, it will throw people off. I am not against the tweak of a handful of changes across the whole board of specs, but we’re again talking about changing the fundamental way professions work and play. Switching the focus on the secondary effects would be a good way to implement it, as long as they skill work similarly to what a player was conditioned to expect (Example: I still expect Shatters to do some damage, if that’s how their PvE counterparts work, even if it’s reduced in PvP/WvW - and for that meager damage to be compensated somewhere else, as to not hinder the class, but then again, while changing it then?).Should there actually be a need to modify “traits that provide automatic defensive triggers” I would again bypass the CD changes altogether and may agree to a properly executed reduced effectiveness, albeit that would still need careful testing before implementation.

Duration (conditions and boons)In general, I’m worried about the reduction on the boon duration is quite much. There’s barely anything to do in a split second and the CD tradeoff for most skills won’t really make us want to even use something for “it’s secondary effect”, as you called it in the first post. I’m also not quite seeing the focus on them either, unless the focus is to nerf them, for which I would advise careful balancing instead, if necessary, but not taking them out of the game modes completely, either for the Power or the Condi specs. I’d argue boons and conditions are good to be felt, not at a condicreep level, but as a balance to power. Also, some CD increases in some classes are just too high!

Time to KillHave any of you played any Shooters? :D People like them because they are fun, they offer instant rewards for their effort, they keep them engaged, they allow them to go beyond the physical limitations of an average person, etc. I can tell you I don’t even jump with my back problems, let alone dash and run around. But the ability to hop on, hop out, have a quick and, seldom, longer fight, and seeing progress or consequences for your actions (aka you land a hit - HP goes down or you defeat them) in a relatively short time span is what keeps people engaged, focused, playing, etc.It sounds like you want to really lengthen the fights and drop the numbers across the board and I would advise against it all, and to just go with spot balancing instead. We already sit there and sometimes fight a while in PvE, WvW and PvP are quick instead. They allow people to feel good, to strive to be better when they are impressed by someone's gameplay, to hone their reflexes and thought process, to learn not to panic in a critical moment, and so on.They provide people with the feeling that they succeeded in doing something, they get pushed further, etc. It also allows them to learn more about their class and other classes without feeling that they are playing a completely different game (even tho it may feel like that at times with the current “meta-builds or bust scenarios” we have now, it’s still not as bad as what it appears it would be like if those changes go through -(there’s skills and weapons or specs we don’t use in certain modes because they don’t work well enough, even tho they should still be viable in that context-).If someone sees that everything works so differently, would they stay around to learn it? Would they not press buttons out of habit and regret it a second later when they see the huge CDs? What if they want to switch between game modes, how would that affect them or newer players to the game or PvP and WvW? In graphic design, and in psychology, we talk about consistency, about Gestalt principles and other human-related things. If we are conditioned to press that skill after we pressed another and now we find out the rotation is different, the timing is different, what it does it differently...It’s the same game, game-modes should be twins (yes, twins are not 100% similar), not adopted siblings. Lower damage (not extreme nerfs to it, just appropriate tweaks to move things more towards a fair realm, but that's my opinion) should be enough to lengthen the time to kill by a bit and we could take it from there, albeit I personally don't prefer extremely long fights. Also, skills are already affected by lag, we don't really need artificial delay build in. By all means, try Blinking out of a blob (click all you want, the skill ain't triggering) or getting illusions to stick in their little dots, with some lag you may find it quite tricky or not durable at certain phases.

But where’s the dynamic gameplay in all this? Am I supposed to look at my opponent and a movie at the same time and hope they misstep off a high ledge to have a chance to defeat them when everything is doing very little damage, has terribly low rewards and very long cooldowns? I’m not saying some fights shouldn’t last a while, and that skill shouldn’t show through (it should!), just not entire minutes or pressing 1 or making googly eyes at each other.

More questions:How would such changes affect the damage dealt and received by mobs and NPCs (some guards also have condis btw, how will this affect those)?Same questions about siege.

Here’s the best recommendation I could possibly give: show us the changes first against targets that don’t and that do hit back and with various complete and incomplete builds and gear, and varying skill levels on both sides, both single and with & against multiple group sizes (Youtube it, and not on PvP dummies as they don’t replicate real scenarios - actually, it would be great if the PvP dummies were adjusted to match reality, but that’s for another topic :D -), get the pulse of the community again, show us some more, let us have some testing phases then implement what the majority of the statistical populations agree upon and spot correct when needed. That is, if you really want to go forth with this.Showing us a few numbers do show some transparency but the change itself feels quite like an ice-cold water bucket to the whole community that may not be actually beneficial to anyone, and careful testing and showcasing will be the best way forward, to hit as close to the sweet spot as possible. “But doing all the showcasing will take too long” If the plan is to flip 2 game modes completely upside down, there’s no such thing as too long to tune that patch.I’m assuming not many people in-game know about this or maybe they feel like it’s a losing battle. But if your goal is to revitalize the game, proper marketing and fixing in-game problems may be a better start, but hey.

Disconnecting PvP and WvW so much, considering they both deal with fighting against the opposing player(s) did always feel weird to me, even tho they both do have a few difference in regards to each other (similar gear selection for PvP and the possibility (roamers and scouts), but not the certainty of encountering a blob in WvW -it would trample you regardless of balance, let’s be real there- and free gear and co. selection, insert other differences here). For all reasons already stated, to allow a fluid motion for the players, between all modes, but PvP and WvW specifically, I would not try to push them apart more than absolutely necessary.

Patch NotesI do not play every class, therefore feedback cannot be given on each change, nor do I claim to have a deep enough understanding of any particular class. But I’ll state this instead:Considering F2P players and B2P players may still prefer playing the core specs, balancing should be done to make every spec viable, especially for its niche, if applicable.I would expect every spec to have the ability to deal damage and defend themselves in some way. For example, Powerboon Crono or a Druid will not hit like a truck, but they should not be wet noodles if someone does as much as look their way. Obviously, damage specs will do the damage, healers will do the healing, etcetera.I would expect all professions to shine in the contexts they were designed for. A Thief would still be a stealthy assassin, an Ele will still have access to all her elements, a Mesmer will still be confusing (Chrono will spread alacrity and quickness, not rev), etc. Problem is, now profession-specific mechanics aren’t as individual and specific to said profession as they should be, while still having viable, less preferred but still good alternative options. For example: If Druid is to be the best healer, a Chrono or an Ele should still be able to be viable, yet less preferred choices, yet they aren’t able to do that right now. And that profession specificity with the alternative options should be valid across all game modes, if you want everyone to have a piece of the pie, or make sure they are highly individualized with their own pie each, instead of everyone getting confused over crumbs.

A weapon’s power coefficient and speed should be taken into account while making changes, which you do say you will consider, and I’m bad at math so it remains to be seen how the changes affect each weapon. Ideally, we won’t be limited to using only X or Y weapon in a specific game mode, like we are now, and should all be viable, with some of them being better choices depending on the situation (Example: on a Mesmer while on top of a structure in WvW, as to not increase the risk off flinging myself off a structure’s wall...again, one would be using Sword or Scepter or Pistol or GS instead of Axe or Staff, or Shield - the buff will go nowhere -).Still, multiple choices, both in terms of gear, weapons, builds, and co. should be viable in all game modes. It’s the main appeal of the game and something that spices up gameplay and increases one’s skill level and challenge difficulty they are exposed to. The whole “switch to X class or build or spec instead, until next never to happen balance that addresses an issue” should never be a thing one recommends to another!

The Elites seem to go on a 60 second(+) CD. I appreciate the small CD reduction on Gravity Wheel albeit it sounds like it will simply poke people at most, instead, and we are dealing with an Elite Skill here, not AAs...but why do you insist on raising CDs to over 1-2.5 minutes?It’s too long, especially for the classes that got hit with 300-500s CD. On my bar, they’d just collect dust.

Mesmer*There’s nothing that says: On an X gear, Staff 1 will do 100 damage instead of 110 or anything like that so all that Point-something mumbo jumbo flies over my head for all classes. So all that math craziness remains to be seen about.I mostly see an alignment of weapons with their PvP variants in terms of summoned clones. Considering that, as a Mesmer, you don’t really have permanent helpers like a Ranger or a Necro, there’s the worry that our illusion generation will be negatively impacted, but I shall hope that’s not the case. We’re already seeing how badly Chrono behaves with the changes. Also, as a personal opinion, retargeting illusions should be an option for all Mesmer specs, which can be done just by implementing the Mirage utility skill into a guaranteed unlock for all specs, even on it’s on the bit too long CD it has at the present moment - Actually, nevermind, I don’t trust ya near my Mesmer, to quote Jack Sparrow: shoo shoo!).

About some skill changes (the idea applies across the board):Signet of the Ether: Reduced illusion summon base heal from 350 to 297: It did absolutely nothing for Mesmers, and it’s doing even less now -not sure if it even matters that it got nerfed tho, considering everyone's HP pools aren’t 5K or less, but are, instead ~12k to ~30k. Some healing skills on some professions are too low anyway, ungeared anyway.Mantra of Concentration: Increased cooldown from 15 seconds to 60 seconds. Increased ammo recharge from 30 seconds to 45 seconds:.I’d say no unless your aim is to push it out of builds. The thing doesn’t do that much, there’s no point for such a leap in CD. (Most Mirage utilities don’t do that much in certain situations anyway, compared to what they could be, cough but that’s a discussion for another topic perhaps).Power Spike (from Mantra of Pain) - Is...is that a buff or you, sadly, mistyped something? :O Christmas is here! Don’t know how the change will affect things but something to help with the damage, and actually be worth taking into the utility slots, would be quite the welcomed change, even if this one doesn't make it.

Mirage Cloak: This trait now reduces the mirage's endurance by 50 in competitive modesIf it is what I think it is, aka jumping from 48 (or whatever the value is currently) to 50 Endurance, per dodge? That won't be that hard to swallow.Questions: Or do you mean the additional -50 will hit us whenever we gain Mirage Cloak by dodging, utility skill or trait? Or that we only start with 50 endurance?That would be all be a no, as Mirage needs it’s dodge for both mitigating and delivering damage (BTW, a Mirage caught in a tunnel of Siege and Condi AOEs, between SM and the red tower opposite Anzalia, is a very dead Mirage, been there, done that, never again shudder).

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We have went though 6 years of skill tree and trait balances under the current system. Some skill has been changed 8 times, or a trait line has been rearranged several times. A trait has been re-written more than once or had its positions in a skill tree changed 3 times. To get to a semblance of balance under the current system. How about utilities that have been changed at least 5 times already and nerfed into the ground to work as they are right now.

A patch like this, maybe not this patch is long over due. However these changes do not take into consideration, that we will need at least another 2-3 years of balances patches under the current release cycle system to fix this patch.

Its a misrepresentation that this is a balance patch. This is not a balance patch it will more than likely reduce the balance in the current game. The is the beginning on an entire re-do of the combat system and I am just not sure if what is left of the player base has the patience for the time its going to take to un-do the negative side effects.

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So what? many games have skills and traits that are changed many times over time to fit with new mechanics in the game. Especially when expansions are launched with new classes. You seem to forget during those "6" years there were two expansions and 19 more specs added to the game on top of the original 8, with power creep of boons, conditions, gear, and stats, and a lot of outliner stuff were allowed to stay around for long periods of time. Each expansion destroyed the balance before it, a giant example was stability.

You're right, this isn't a balance patch, this is a reset patch, lowering most damage down 30% and reducing problem support skills and traits, from there on balance will happen on a faster cadence than previously.

If you don't think terrible power creep and balance didn't play a part in chasing people away from wvw you're deluding yourself.

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@"XenesisII.1540" said:So what? many games have skills and traits that are changed many times over time to fit with new mechanics in the game. Especially when expansions are launched with new classes. You seem to forgot during those "6" years there were two expansions and 19 more specs added to the game on top of the original 8, with power creep of boons, conditions, gear, and stats, and a lot of outliner stuff were allowed to stay around for long periods of time. Each expansion destroyed the balance before it, a giant example was stability.

You're right, this isn't a balance patch, this is a reset patch, lowering most damage down 30% and reducing problem support skills and traits, from there on balance will happen on a faster cadence than previously.

If you don't think terrible power creep and balance didn't play a part in chasing people away from wvw you're deluding yourself.

OP was saying you can’t just apply a 30% nerf across the board and expect it to function correctly with all skills/traits as they were balanced based on the current damage models.

IMO the power creep has sucked but this update could create a complete mess. I would not be so optimistic that they would actually hold themselves to a more aggressive schedule with future balance updates.

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@XenesisII.1540 said:So what? many games have skills and traits that are changed many times over time to fit with new mechanics in the game. Especially when expansions are launched with new classes. You seem to forgot during those "6" years there were two expansions and 19 more specs added to the game on top of the original 8, with power creep of boons, conditions, gear, and stats, and a lot of outliner stuff were allowed to stay around for long periods of time. Each expansion destroyed the balance before it, a giant example was stability.

This is the 1st point I made.

@XenesisII.1540 said:You're right, this isn't a balance patch, this is a reset patch, lowering most damage down 30% and reducing problem support skills and traits, from there on balance will happen on a faster cadence than previously.

The so what part is, the current balance is based on those 6 years of changes. Those changes are based on the current system. They are not based on the new balanced patch system. So the current skills and traits as they are are not designed and balanced to be run on this system. Whats worst is the proposed changes are not balanced to run on the new system. Blanket tone downs should be a red light that they are not becasue not everything is the same. They also didn't touch a lot of things that are just as problematic. Like none of the gear sets are designed to be run on this system either.

I didn't see that balance would happen on a faster cadence. There has been no official change to the balance cycle of every 2 months or whatever it is now.

This patch is a pandoras box, anyone with enough sense should be able to agree with us.

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@Destro.9871 said:However these changes do not take into consideration, that we will need at least another 2-3 years of balances patches under the current release cycle system to fix this patch.

Its a misrepresentation that this is a balance patch. This is not a balance patch it will more than likely reduce the balance in the current game. The is the beginning on an entire re-do of the combat system and I am just not sure if what is left of the player base has the patience for the time its going to take to un-do the negative side effects.

This. I believe this is how most vets who’ve stuck with the game mode for all these years feel.

Let’s face it, that warrior earth shaker isn’t melting you because it’s “doing too much” by doing 1.0 damage coefficient and stunning. What’s melting you is his other 4 friends from his gank squad who follow up with coordinated attacks. This is the nature of the game mode and nothing this patch or anything anet does will “fix” that. Besides, it would be absolutely unfair to that gank squad if they weren’t able to melt you 5v1.

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First of all my words on this Mark my perspective and not of a balancing dev or arenanet. But of an ex math student and engineer. All i got to say:

If you want to balance a game as complex as this its a good start to lie a solid base and create a framework to work together. Mark all Skills to have one effect and one purpose on the basics.

Secondly id also reduce the damage to have An overall better damage balance. Yeah other skills could still hit 20% more but instead of 10k-12k its 7k-8.4k difference. The skills would, 1 not 2shot most people and ttk would increase and therefor: This makes IT overall better to overview the differences in classes and damages in a gamemode in wvw.

Then i would start zoom out; and decide the specs and specialtys for classes (not traitlines included) and what they do, not in elite spec 'thief-low damage, fast attack speed'. 'warrior weak range strong cc' etc.

Then i would zoom a little in to were the elite specs are: what do/could they add and HOW could IT work with the tools they have now? (Like DH stronger virtues but less support.focussed) and adjust the previous 'role' bases on elite spec.

Then i would let go the elite spec view for a bit and look at utilities: do they do what they have to do? Is it viable(not all skills have to be but its always Nice to pick an option) and then set a limit to were to patch towards on a min-max level. And patch Them a bit.

Then id pick the elite specs and do exactly the same and Just now with the skills/ traits on the utility with that certain elite spec. Like the nerve that had been called to MI: IT syncs perfectly with FB but is useless on DH since they mostly run mobility tools allready. And then balance mi for dh and not fb (this would hit certain skills really hard but Will have a more skill balance for the sake of variety)

And then id zoom (on functional level) to ALL the traitlines and how 'well' certain skills sync and create a framework of rules to work with and how i want Them to sync. Like 'if i do Dodge i get rewarded with skill/boon A' and not put IT in the same traitline as 'if i get skill/boon A i Will also get skill/boon B'. Since these traitlines are really stale and boring. And kills alot of build variety imo.

And from here i can repeat the skills to the traitline. And after that do.the weapons seperatly. I then would have An overview for-class functionality and damage

  • role of that class with the tradeoffs in elite specs
  • usages of traits skills and weapon skills

This is the Basic how i would handle IT.And to be fair ive seen a few basic stuff Being done here and would sure hope so if they would construct it in a simmular level....

So yeah its a process of steps to take and this first one isnt fixing everything. And if this was basicly the only step they'd take i would 'find IT rather a weak patch. But with all the messages given in streams.etc i do have the feeling they work serious with it

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It is a patch that the community has been asking for a long time; reduce power creep, reduce ttk, reduce boon spam. Now again we have qq everywhere (expected no less).Will it bring chaos and meta shifts? Yes, most definitely. Is this bad for the game? Imo no, meta shifts are welcome otherwise the game becomes boring.

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You've missed the part where this patch is just the beginning and they mention follow up balance patches around every 6 weeks following this. It's a very important first step and honestly a large change thatmisses the mark on many, but also hits the mark on many smaller changes is better than not changing anything about the big picture at all.

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@Destro.9871 said:We have went though 6 years of skill tree and trait balances under the current system. Some skill has been changed 8 times, or a trait line has been rearranged several times. A trait has been re-written more than once or had its positions in a skill tree changed 3 times. To get to a semblance of balance under the current system. How about utilities that have been changed at least 5 times already and nerfed into the ground to work as they are right now.

A patch like this, maybe not this patch is long over due. However these changes do not take into consideration, that we will need at least another 2-3 years of balances patches under the current release cycle system to fix this patch.

Its a misrepresentation that this is a balance patch. This is not a balance patch it will more than likely reduce the balance in the current game. The is the beginning on an entire re-do of the combat system and I am just not sure if what is left of the player base has the patience for the time its going to take to un-do the negative side effects.

People are excited because it is infact a paradigm shift, as the devs announced. The devs also stated that from now on we will get more frequent hotfixes and balance patches every 4-6 weeks. I think lots of people would not be ok if the devs just announced to deliver this patch and leave balance as it turns out. I think your worry is unwarranted since it has been adressed by the devs already.Imo a valid concern would rather be whether the devs actually will deliver what they are promising.

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@Destro.9871 said:We have went though 6 years of skill tree and trait balances under the current system. Some skill has been changed 8 times, or a trait line has been rearranged several times. A trait has been re-written more than once or had its positions in a skill tree changed 3 times. To get to a semblance of balance under the current system. How about utilities that have been changed at least 5 times already and nerfed into the ground to work as they are right now.

The current system has not existed for 6 years. The systemic aspects of it has been changed before (adapting the system to PvE raids) and there are alot of new components in the system from what is essentially new classes (in one case even literally a new class) to additions of completely new mechanics like smeld and WoD. Things like balance also tend to come and go in waves. It gets better and worse. The last two years have seen some of the worst of the 7-year balance.

Its a misrepresentation that this is a balance patch. This is not a balance patch it will more than likely reduce the balance in the current game. The is the beginning on an entire re-do of the combat system and I am just not sure if what is left of the player base has the patience for the time its going to take to un-do the negative side effects.

Yep, you're right, it isn't a balance patch, at least not balance in the sense that players tend to perceive it. It is a balance patch from a developer perspective: changing things to make them easier to balance later. I'd say you are somewhat right about your concerns too. It is a controversial move in a situation when the playerbase's patience is already tested. The problem is that they have been so inattentive for such a long time that they have to do something and they have to do something drastic to address problems that they have let ramping up. In that sense it isn't really re-do in the sense of something new, it is more of a re-turn back towards how the game used to be balanced.

The boon spam, is because of raids. The condi spam, is because of raids. The power/crit inflation, is because of raids. Alot of people tend to talk about power creep and use the term very liberally but this stuff is the raw definition of the term: Things have been introduced that forces similar things to be improved causing an upward spiral. PvE does not have to take player-damage into defensive consideration - so they haven't - and have let their PvP modes spiral out of control as a result. As PvP players (in sPvP and WvW) we are very aware of how developer attention between the modes have polarized when it comes to development and content but it has been equally true when it comes to balance. They had one team doing all the balance in the past and while there were some splits they were mostly an afterthought, making some things diverge from the PvE norms. So any balance leading up until a couple of months ago has been PvE balance where PvP has been an afterthought at best.

Also, some people will surely be upset by the changes and, possibly, they represent a growing portion of the community (burst-oriented roamers, damage-oriented pugs) but they are also not representing the most experienced, responsible, productive and long-sighted portions of the community. As always, the biggest loss that WvW has seen over the past, let's say 3 years, is not necessarily in player totals but rather in the form of guilds and organized player groups. Those remaining groups have become disproportionally powerful, impactful, important and indirectly responsible. Single guilds carry servers, single guilds drive content. To not venture too far away from the topic: Those groups tend to play more sides of the system, have longer perspective and generally be positive about the changes. Otherwise the player organisation that has built up over the years will return to the soil. NA has fallen so much further than EU that you can start making a case for that NA already is dead in that sense.

So, if you go from an environment where up to 80% of a 50-man squad plays a single class/build and there are similar trends that are developing at the other extreme with solo players more and more gravitating towards the most popular class/build, then you have a rather alarming problem to adress while you at the same time have a rather sizable portion of the community that you may risk making upset because they have to be the primary target of your changes. They represent the problem but they obviously have trouble understanding that.

It isn't surprising that the majority of the people who complain about these changes play alot of Necros and Thieves while other people who complain are likely to play other classes that rests upon similar mechanics and styles. However, they have been spoiled by being allowed to do things for quite a long time now that they never should have been able to do. At the same time, people who are very experienced on those classes, you don't hear them complaining. They have a more sober understanding of it and know what balance implies. That doesn't mean that they can't have concerns with any changes but they won't leave (some are rather comming back because their own class/style is toned down to balance) and they adress concerns in better ways.

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@Blocki.4931 said:You've missed the part where this patch is just the beginning and they mention follow up balance patches around every 6 weeks following this. It's a very important first step and honestly a large change thatmisses the mark on many, but also hits the mark on many smaller changes is better than not changing anything about the big picture at all.

6 week is a lot to wait on, heck, 3 days is too much if it ends up being a face flop of a patch.It only takes 5 mins to find out if its a good or a bad patch. people wont wait for a hot fix because we are too jaded to know hot fixes dont do anything, nor 6 weeks for something to fix the issues. when you can easily just turn to a simpler game with more fun or rewards.

Because remember, Gw2 is not the only game to play, Gw2 is not in a vacuum. and its not like im trying to advocate people to play other games, its just a simpler option to play something else rather than deal with potential bad patches, which historically, WvW has for the most part had trash patches that created more problems than solutions.

Infact lets throw the Devs integrity under a burning bus, we are dealing with a team, that refused to force reset the matchup when a server had 5 links on its own side when it bugged out. when in the past they were able to reset matchups willingly 2 days in a matchup

6 week window is an god horrible cop out excuse to do less work, when they cant do the bare minimum to make wvw a function game mode

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