Balance Patch Preview - WvW

[cobbah.3102]

Hmmm will wait till the 25th and possibly have a new game on the 27th, eternal optimist maybe just maybe it will fix this utter garbage that WvW has become. but then again maybe time to move on.

[Nunya.4920]

...deleted...

[Nunya.4920]

...deleted...

[Nunya.4920]

deleted...

[Burnfall.9573]

@"cobbah.3102" said:Hmmm will wait till the 25th and possibly have a new game on the 27th, eternal optimist maybe just maybe it will fix this utter garbage that WvW has become. but then again maybe time to move on.

I am actually looking forward to Amazon-New World, It has a system called War Territory, similar to guild wars 2 wvw(no subscription fee)

[Laurencius.9258]

Of particular note is how Anet is falling all over themselves to make rangers as useless as possible. They're, quite literally, saying to all us folks who like to play rangers, "Ranger has been made garbage - we don't want you to play anymore - please take your money elsewhere."

[Dawdler.8521]

@Burnfall.9573 said:

@"cobbah.3102" said:Hmmm will wait till the 25th and possibly have a new game on the 27th, eternal optimist maybe just maybe it will fix this utter garbage that WvW has become. but then again maybe time to move on.

I am actually looking forward to Amazon-New World, It has a system called War Territory, similar to guild wars 2 wvw(no subscription fee)

Its not like GW2 at all since GW2 has contained WvW in its own perpetual bubble of completely free-form content. Its much more similar to how Archeage and BDO tried to do it and unfortunetly... that system was shit. The problem is that it dumps way to much power and control over to organized guilds. Basicly only guilds are "allowed" to take part in war because for everyone else, its just prohibitive. It will probably work for a while, it'll be exciting and new... until the guilds start to leave. To say that such a system is good for newcomers is a complete backwards notion to me.

I still have hope that it'll be something good, but I have doubts.

[bluberblasen.9684]

@DeceiverX.8361 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:

@"Vayne.8563" said:Almost feels more like a reboot than a balance patch. I'm okay with that. Sometimes if the house needs enough work, tearing it down and starting over is more efficient.

^^ Words of wisdom folks!

Problem is we're not tearing it down. Not even close.The designers are building atop a dilapidated old house but leaving a significant chunk of its crumbling foundation and framing, and then trying to build off that, effectively removing a lot of what is and was good in the process, while still leaving some major problems for the future.

Warclaw is still here. Expansion gearsets are still here. T7 food is still massively OP and based on what basically amounts to a fetch quest dependent on elements of map completion. The DBL still has bad mechanics. Boonballing/AoE spamming is still not beatable with alternative strategies. Condi was barely affected and its burst was literally made stronger for some builds/classes, especially with the cleanse nerfs. Stuff like my off-meta yet hilariously-overpowered (in WvW) 4k+ armor condi ranger that I can already 1v2/1v3 glass burst builds with had almost no changes at all made to it, and its primary "skillset" is to mash 1. Skill expression for a lot of builds based on kit design didn't actually improve or really change much. Any given dominant build is going to just be better than the others by massive margins, but not as powerful by the numbers as today.

ANet addressed one thing: TTK, which wasn't a problem AT ALL with weapon skill coefficients

EXCEPT

for elite spec weapons. We literally played for years with the same numbers lol. TTK

could

have been even lower than today at several points in the game's history. And you know what? Nobody cared, because there were only a few mechanics that caused unfair fast deaths. And none of them were based on coefficients and stats

EXCEPT

for the condi ones, because those cheese builds happened to always be brainless AF.

This isn't starting anew. This is taking a "safe route" to protect elite spec relative powercreep and not make anyone in PvE upset because the strong builds/rotations aren't going to change with skill redesigns, and not make anyone in the PvP modes upset that they actually introduced design changes to kits and trait lines that desperately need it, to ensure people don't get literally outplayed.

Passives are the best example here. They boosted cooldowns to 5 minutes, effectively making the traits dead traits. The mere idea of a potent passive triggered effect being unpredictable and completely throwing calculated play out of whack is not changing. Instead of addressing that issue - combat system visibility and power in passive triggered traits, they're nerfing their frequency to obscurity so they're not longer a no-skill staple in combat and just leaving them, broken mechanics attached.

A huge majority of problems in the game are design-level and with boons. That's it. The patch before HoT was the best this game's ever been. Why? People were running berserker/valkyrie gear with way less health and sustain on average. People died even faster. But when you got bursted quickly, you almost always deserved it. It's just not the case now, because very little of the gameplay today as far as dealing damage is concerned is active thanks to the mechanics and higher numbers introduced with expansion content.

You can't just build a house on top of a crumbling foundation and the ruins of the previous home that fell apart. It doesn't matter what you do or even how good of a job you do at building another house. You need to inspect why the old one collapsed and address it directly so it doesn't happen again.

So many people have spoken out as to why they quit. The pro PvP players in their last days had a huge thread directly talking about these issues shortly before they all quit and the scene disbanded explaining the same things. The thread got deleted because it was holding people accountable made by actual experts of the PvP scene. I've said my piece speaking for my guild and a few others I've been in since almost everyone just left quietly to other games.

I'm still here because most people want to come back. The other games aren't as good as peak GW2. But they're not going to come back with gimmicks like nerfing base power.

If TTK is low because of expansion powercreep, the expansion powercreep needs nerfing/changing/removing and nothing else.

only quote for truth / visibility

[Strider Pj.2193]

@Nunya.4920 said:

@Strider Pj.2193 said:Welcome to WvW. It is good to have someone new. Hopefully you’ll see what I write next as constructive and not adversarial.Throughout the thread, multiple people have noted that they are essentially

resetting

every class to one extent or another. It’s much less about nerfing a class, and much more about reducing the significant level of Power creep (which includes Defense as well) that has occurred over the past 4 - 5 years.No. It shouldn’t exclude you from WvW but please understand that a large part of it is PvP.

I would honestly look at your build, and group with one or two others to take camps. As in PvE, the guards do things is very specific rotations. Learn them which will allow you to keep your damage up, thus killing them faster/easier. Also.... Tier 2 and Tier 3 camps can be very challenging to solo.... there is one class that will pull you all over the camp.., annoying as a young cat...If you are talking to people outside of WvW they will ignorantly tell you it is megaservers. For WvW there are ‘worlds’. When you open your WvW entry screen, you will have a ‘house’ icon next to the server you are on (or are attached to because you may be a link).As you know, things like this happen in most games. GW2 at least has three other borderlands and each has three exits from spawn. Usually, they will camp the most likely exit in order to get skirmishes and fights. Often, they know the people that come there are new, making their own level of fun. There are many of us that won’t do this, but a small minority will place people in a bad spot.

Best thing to do is remove their fun. Go to a different exit, or a different Borderlands.

The problem as has been pointed out further down, is many of the classes have been ramped to the point of being able to take people down in short order.

Because someone isn’t good at a class, isn’t a reason to not nerf that class...

Good luck.As for wvw, they camp Every exit, so you must not be on our team, if you don't know that.

My apologies. I didn’t realize they had 12 exits blocked. (4 maps x3 exits.)

And why should I go to a different map ? I paid good money for this game too.

There are 4 WvW maps. You did pay good money for this game and it afforded you 4 WvW maps that count for your team.

Also my 'build' is a wvw build. As I already said, it is NOT about being a good or a bad ranger. If a class is Not OP it doesn't need a nerf. Period >.

Not sure, but I do not believe I ever asked you to change your build nor did I ask if it was a ‘WvW build’..

Maybe if you were less defensive you might be able to read what was written.

[Voltekka.2375]

"They gonna nerf my class! Yes, yes, it may have been a tad overpowered in terms of boons and mobility and damage and disengages and yes, it has carried me for months/years and yes, I jump from broken class plus build to another broken class plus build cause it does give me a sense of superiority, but THEY GONNA NERF MA CLASS! DED GAEM IMA MOVE TO ANOTHER GAEM "Reminds me of the kids we used to play football with as children, those kids who owned the ball and threatened to leave if everyone else didnt so their bidding.Good riddance.

You cry for balance for years. You claim wvw is neglected for years. You feel this mode has been damaged cause of powercreep. But the ONE time a patch of this magnitude comes, everyone suddenly somehow remembers the game was fairly balanced. If the mode is/were in life support, this may kill it or revive it. Why do you cry for change, when you fear it so much?

[Nunya.4920]

...deleted..

[Eyduria.6341]

@"Voltekka.2375" said:"They gonna nerf my class! Yes, yes, it may have been a tad overpowered in terms of boons and mobility and damage and disengages and yes, it has carried me for months/years and yes, I jump from broken class plus build to another broken class plus build cause it does give me a sense of superiority, but THEY GONNA NERF MA CLASS! DED GAEM IMA MOVE TO ANOTHER GAEM "Reminds me of the kids we used to play football with as children, those kids who owned the ball and threatened to leave if everyone else didnt so their bidding.Good riddance.

You cry for balance for years. You claim wvw is neglected for years. You feel this mode has been damaged cause of powercreep. But the ONE time a patch of this magnitude comes, everyone suddenly somehow remembers the game was fairly balanced. If the mode is/were in life support, this may kill it or revive it. Why do you cry for change, when you fear it so much?

Wanting a positive change, and having the entire combat system reworked in a way that negatively effects anyone not playing condi on every single class are not the same thing.

In other news, I think whoever decided to nerf the entire game should be fired; this is not a positive change that is going to benefit everyone and make a better supported, more fun gamemode, and there are much better ways they should have gone about doing this. Why break the stuff that works if you're not going to fix the things that are broken?

[Voltekka.2375]

@Eyduria.6341 said:

@"Voltekka.2375" said:"They gonna nerf my class! Yes, yes, it may have been a tad overpowered in terms of boons and mobility and damage and disengages and yes, it has carried me for months/years and yes, I jump from broken class plus build to another broken class plus build cause it does give me a sense of superiority, but THEY GONNA NERF MA CLASS! DED GAEM IMA MOVE TO ANOTHER GAEM "Reminds me of the kids we used to play football with as children, those kids who owned the ball and threatened to leave if everyone else didnt so their bidding.Good riddance.

You cry for balance for years. You claim wvw is neglected for years. You feel this mode has been damaged cause of powercreep. But the ONE time a patch of this magnitude comes, everyone suddenly somehow remembers the game was fairly balanced. If the mode is/were in life support, this may kill it or revive it. Why do you cry for change, when you fear it so much?

Wanting a positive change, and having the entire combat system reworked in a way that negatively effects anyone not playing condi on every single class are not the same thing.

In other news, I think whoever decided to nerf the entire game should be fired; this is not a positive change that is going to benefit everyone and make a better supported, more fun gamemode, and there are much better ways they should have gone about doing this. Why break the stuff that works if you're not going to fix the things that are broken?

Please, I am all ears. What is broken? Thanks for your input!Condi will get affected, as well.

[Eyduria.6341]

@Voltekka.2375 said:Please, I am all ears. What is broken? Thanks for your input!Condi will get affected, as well.

I understand condi will get affected as well, but the majority of condi changes (at least that I've read through) are more in line with moving condis between abilities rather than restricting access to them altogether. For example, looking through the Rev patchnotes with one of my guildies already shows ways to put out a disturbing about of torment that we didn't have access to before.

As far as things that are broken, the first two examples I have off the top of my head of things that are functionally broken are Rev sword 3 / Soulbeast smokescale 2 (I think), you waste jumps on terrain or un-targettable objects like sentry posts, supply depots, and walls. Other things like the auto-proc balanced stance on warrior that negates the move that set it off without charging a stack of stability are plain not fair to other players, in my opinion. Then you run into builds that, granted, I might just not be skilled at fighting, but ones like Mirage that have unlimited evasion/distortion while also doing max condi damage where you have to rely on the player making a mistake more than being able to make an opening for yourself and being able to counterplay.

I'd like to point out just to be clear, I'm by no means an expert on what's broken or isn't, and I've had the idea behind the patch explained to me in a positive way, but I still feel this is skirting the issue of fixing important mechanics or skills that would greatly benefit the QoL in the game mode, while trying to keep the player base from looking at those issues too hard.

[blackgamma.1809]

@SloRules.3560 said:

@blackgamma.1809 said:

@SloRules.3560 said:

@blackgamma.1809 said:

@SloRules.3560 said:

@blackgamma.1809 said:

@Blocki.4931 said:You've missed the part where this patch is just the beginning and they mention follow up balance patches around every 6 weeks following this. It's a very important first step and honestly a large change thatmisses the mark on many, but also hits the mark on many smaller changes is better than not changing anything about the big picture at all.

6 week is a lot to wait on, heck, 3 days is too much if it ends up being a face flop of a patch.It only takes 5 mins to find out if its a good or a bad patch. people wont wait for a hot fix because we are too jaded to know hot fixes dont do anything, nor 6 weeks for something to fix the issues. when you can easily just turn to a simpler game with more fun or rewards.

Because remember, Gw2 is not the only game to play, Gw2 is not in a vacuum. and its not like im trying to advocate people to play other games, its just a simpler option to play something else rather than deal with potential bad patches, which historically, WvW has for the most part had trash patches that created more problems than solutions.

Infact lets throw the Devs integrity under a burning bus, we are dealing with a team, that refused to force reset the matchup when a server had 5 links on its own side when it bugged out. when in the past they were able to reset matchups willingly 2 days in a matchup

6 week window is an god horrible cop out excuse to do less work, when they cant do the bare minimum to make wvw a function game mode

Actually it takes a whole lot longer to see effect of such patch than 5 minutes...

Usually it's 1 to 2 weeks testing different things (3 times a week) and than settling on something, but adapt to what you see than. So yeah, you could push next non-hotfix balance patch in 4 weeks, anything sooner and it's actually too soon to see full effect. 6 weeks is a streach, that i do agree on.

that not entirely true, true in general, but not in regards to gw2 in wvw, you only have to read patch notes to know how bad the patch is, the patch doesn't have to be live for you to know its a bad patch. in fact it can take something as quick as seconds to know a patch can be bad, just by reading the notes.

and generally, i like the idea of dont knock it until you tried it, things should be tested, that the problem, its not, and when it is, its done badly. the statement you have said could very well apply to many things in gw2, but that statement doesnt hold true in WvW in the past year of this game. because there has been times where a patch has been straight up bad before its been implemented

example. when they remove reveal from scrapper, zerg fights became terrible and unplayable, fights became dictated based on became whoever came out from reveal first, lost the fight. people who played wvw that read the patch notes KNEW it was a bad patch for wvw from the get go, regardless of its fixes, devs were completely oblivious to how bad the changes were.

these changes were not fixed for a whole for 2 and a half months. people had to play a toxic zerg meta that no one liked. the devs didnt rectify the situation for the entire duration of that patch

Actually even with reveal it's the same, the one that is revealed first dies, just that it doesn't depend on execution, but luck of scrapper player... Example of terrible patch is chrono and removal of IP.

As for upcoming patch, i can't evaluate it. I can't predict where meta will go in 2 months time. Because every time major balance hits (expansion for example), it's always pirateship first than something else shows up. As for pugs, i couldn't care less. A commander from vanilla could lead and most people wouldn't even know the difference.

thats relatively true in some sense, but the difference is at least you had defensive option when you saw a scrapper coming in with the reveal. you had evades, blocks, aegis. at least a good proportion of gameplay was spread out through the entire fight.

during the scrapper nerf, 90 percent of the gameplay was in setup, ensuring everyone properly blasting smoke fields and waiting it out

Actually you didn't see scrapper, he was also stealthed and aegis(also any other block) was countered by basilisk venom.

you still had options even if they wernt a variable. thats my point. and if it was a variable, it didnt matter during the nerf. yeah, basilisk venom was busted on scrappers, but at least you saw the gyro and you had option to stall out the steath if you knew they had a basilisk venom. you still had option, theif didnt matter nor was it needed during the nerf when you know, it couldnt give the venom to the scrapper

[blackgamma.1809]

@DeceiverX.8361 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:

@"Vayne.8563" said:Almost feels more like a reboot than a balance patch. I'm okay with that. Sometimes if the house needs enough work, tearing it down and starting over is more efficient.

^^ Words of wisdom folks!

Problem is we're not tearing it down. Not even close.The designers are building atop a dilapidated old house but leaving a significant chunk of its crumbling foundation and framing, and then trying to build off that, effectively removing a lot of what is and was good in the process, while still leaving some major problems for the future.

Warclaw is still here. Expansion gearsets are still here. T7 food is still massively OP and based on what basically amounts to a fetch quest dependent on elements of map completion. The DBL still has bad mechanics. Boonballing/AoE spamming is still not beatable with alternative strategies. Condi was barely affected and its burst was literally made stronger for some builds/classes, especially with the cleanse nerfs. Stuff like my off-meta yet hilariously-overpowered (in WvW) 4k+ armor condi ranger that I can already 1v2/1v3 glass burst builds with had almost no changes at all made to it, and its primary "skillset" is to mash 1. Skill expression for a lot of builds based on kit design didn't actually improve or really change much. Any given dominant build is going to just be better than the others by massive margins, but not as powerful by the numbers as today.

ANet addressed one thing: TTK, which wasn't a problem AT ALL with weapon skill coefficients

EXCEPT

for elite spec weapons. We literally played for years with the same numbers lol. TTK

could

have been even lower than today at several points in the game's history. And you know what? Nobody cared, because there were only a few mechanics that caused unfair fast deaths. And none of them were based on coefficients and stats

EXCEPT

for the condi ones, because those cheese builds happened to always be brainless AF.

This isn't starting anew. This is taking a "safe route" to protect elite spec relative powercreep and not make anyone in PvE upset because the strong builds/rotations aren't going to change with skill redesigns, and not make anyone in the PvP modes upset that they actually introduced design changes to kits and trait lines that desperately need it, to ensure people don't get literally outplayed.

Passives are the best example here. They boosted cooldowns to 5 minutes, effectively making the traits dead traits. The mere idea of a potent passive triggered effect being unpredictable and completely throwing calculated play out of whack is not changing. Instead of addressing that issue - combat system visibility and power in passive triggered traits, they're nerfing their frequency to obscurity so they're not longer a no-skill staple in combat and just leaving them, broken mechanics attached.

A huge majority of problems in the game are design-level and with boons. That's it. The patch before HoT was the best this game's ever been. Why? People were running berserker/valkyrie gear with way less health and sustain on average. People died even faster. But when you got bursted quickly, you almost always deserved it. It's just not the case now, because very little of the gameplay today as far as dealing damage is concerned is active thanks to the mechanics and higher numbers introduced with expansion content.

You can't just build a house on top of a crumbling foundation and the ruins of the previous home that fell apart. It doesn't matter what you do or even how good of a job you do at building another house. You need to inspect why the old one collapsed and address it directly so it doesn't happen again.

So many people have spoken out as to why they quit. The pro PvP players in their last days had a huge thread directly talking about these issues shortly before they all quit and the scene disbanded explaining the same things. The thread got deleted because it was holding people accountable made by actual experts of the PvP scene. I've said my piece speaking for my guild and a few others I've been in since almost everyone just left quietly to other games.

I'm still here because most people want to come back. The other games aren't as good as peak GW2. But they're not going to come back with gimmicks like nerfing base power. If TTK is low because of expansion powercreep, the expansion powercreep needs nerfing/changing/removing and nothing else.

i've only got two things to comment about that.

1. server stability will still most likely suck balls. so even if the patch happens to be the bee's knee's, it's still gonna be a struggle to play to milk the fun out of the patch due to lag.
2. pvp players were ignored for the get go a long time ago, when pvp players said how bad it was to have maps that had separate capture points to control to dictate gamemplay, and anet simply ignored it, it was only going to go downhill from there, and is ever so slowly hitting the bottom since launch

so yeah, core game needs to be fixed before balancing the fixes

[blackgamma.1809]

@Burnfall.9573 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:

@Burnfall.9573 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:

@Burnfall.9573 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:We get it, you’re bothered by the state of the game. Lot of us are. But the devs have to start somewhere, and this is where they have chosen. Be grateful something is starting to happen, as opposed to being ignored.

what to be grateful will be from the results from the patch and we will all be given the chance to chose to or not to

(we've put up with years of being ignored, we owe nothing in return)

Listen, I get it, and the devs get it. Bashing them won’t make things better or changes go faster. If you are going to criticize, at least take the time to educate yourself on what the devs have recently communicated. It was already stated that things will be messy, and this isn’t a one and done balance patch, it’s to set in motion the changes that are coming. This patch is to start off a new “paradigm”. For real, watch and absorb bc the bashing and memes aren’t helpful...

@Swagger.1459 said:Juicy news starting at 57 minutes! Enjoy!

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/533356676?t=57m

it's not bashing them, it's speaking truth. I said nothing offensive against Anet and had previously stated that i am willing to give Anet the benefit of the doubt to get the game back on track or leave if they continue to make exceptions to Toxicity. In fact; in few previous posts, i responded to posters who had evidence that in fact, exceptions will be made with Toxicity even after the patch releases.

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/98064/nerfing-damage-but-not-touching-evades-this-is-going-to-be-catastrophic#latest

'Refusing to consider multiple other factors (such as burst avoidance) while toning down damage is just going to make the game unfun.'

'in other words, making exceptions by not dealing with the whole problem?'

sure as it seems, there will no longer be instant kills, power creep, others....is that it? will this big patch will do its best to prevent Toxicity from resurfacing again by elimination all its Toxic elements? completely preventing all unhealthy, non-competitive factors from resurfacing again?

Swagger, this is the exact root cause problem i believe the community have with Anet when making any changes and you know it very well, 'they chose what matters as it seems and always leave room for other serious matters being left undone'

In other words, they are not being completely honest to us by giving us the complete changes that we truly need. In the real world, that is called Deception and yet again, we find ourselves being continually being deceived all over again.

It never ends and that is the problem....there's always something else left undone, incomplete and the cycle continues. What is so wrong about this is, there should not be any room left undone or incomplete because it is always the same problems, same ongoing issues that is always at fault to begin with and it clearly evident to everyone to see them.

In close, we will be back on the forum having to deal with the same repetitive unresolved problems all over again. Yeah, it's the typical and will always be

in the end, as always -all we are continually are asking for is Transparency- that's all

--we are just tired and have had it--

Did you even bother to watch the video? Tell me what the devs said in there?

yes i did bother to watch the video and Anet once assured us that actions, not words are what we will see and that, they will give us what we want. Once again Swagger, as i said before, i am willing to give Anet the benefit of doubt to get the game back on track. All the community cares aboutis for Anet 'putting words into action and being transparent ' and if they can do that, than its a go.

the hell do you mean, the entire wvw scene is jaded and bitter based on their actions, and lack their of. we already words dont mean shit, community managers have proved time and time again that words dont mean shit, we have scathing towards the devs based on their actions and lack their of appropriate actions

[Forbidden Virtue.1089]

Firebrand; If you take Weighty Terms as a traitline in WvW. It will add a second Charge Recovery to the tooltip with a higher number? It's a bit weird to be honest.

[Navoe.4283]

after patch I went into wvw without changing anything same toon same build as before patch. I attacked an NPC my damage was so low she woudn't stay aggro'd she turned and walked away LOL

[hayabusafmw.9370]

uninstall night. Instead of wvw night :)

[Melian.5368]

deleted...

[Kronan.6712]

Hello everyone, I found the WvW very, very funny to play from years, same if I'm still a "bad" player, and same if some traits are perhaps unbalanced. But after this patch, I'm just in the game to see the cool guys of my guild, without any desire to make the slightest fight. I'm not sure to keep this game, just for chatting. It is not a nerf problem, It is much more deeper. I simply do not understand what you (Areanet) are trying to do.

[Blaaaa Name.2904]

Ugh t H@ll with this game I'm going Raptor farming and setting up my henches bars after that I'm going to play ELE / Ranger and hold Halls .

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@Blaaaa Name.2904 said:Ugh t H@ll with this game I'm going Raptor farming and setting up my henches bars after that I'm going to play ELE / Ranger and hold Halls .

Lol... Good times.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

@Blaaaa Name.2904 said:Ugh t H@ll with this game I'm going Raptor farming and setting up my henches bars after that I'm going to play ELE / Ranger and hold Halls .

I like double psychic instability mesmer henchies in pve for some reason lol. it actually works pretty well.