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So everyone is getting their mobility CD's nerfed


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@Kovu.7560 said:

@RedShark.9548 said:You have like 3 or 4 ppl talking against you and
nobody really arguing for you
Oh, we're here. We're just tired of rehashing the same arguments over and over again year-in-and-year-out. In the end, 8-out-of-9 players approve of ranger nerfs.

As a ranger main, warrior is basically my kryptonite, but as it seems like warrior, ranger and elementalist saw the biggest nerfs and I'm not actually all that bummed about cooldown increases to the swoops. Those cooldowns are still fairly short, it is what it is. Honestly, its the continued nerfs to druid healing, core ranger, as well as weapons and utilities never seen in this gamemode that gets me.

Like, if Druid healing is overpowered in pve, nerf it in pve -- not here. ¯\
(ツ)

~ Kovu

In what world is warrior your kryptonite???Im serious, are we playing the same effing game? Sure you might not play a optimal build to fight warriors, but there sure as kitten are ranger builds that stomp warrior and laugh at him while doing it, in no world in warrior the counter to ranger kitten.

Yea, here we are again, multiple ppl trying to tell him why ranger has certain advantages over warrior, that justify longer cds on swoop, because they simply exist, no questions asked.

He has literally no argument, always just repeats "what about mesmer or thief" or "core war wrecks my build" no real explanation given and no understanding of the fact that other builds can wreck that core warrior.

Warrior mobility is only somewhat weaker than ranger's and generally good enough to catch rangers that initially commit to a fight, they have several tools to slow down rangers trying to run away via cripple, their damage in melee pre-patch dwarfs anything a ranger can put, much of that damage (pre-patch) coming attached to stuns, they have enough uptime on projectile reflection to counter ranged spam until they close the gap, arguably more damage mitigation, a larger health pool, higher base armor/defense, better stun break access and prevention, passive and active regeneration, the ability to be immune to critical hits (which they can cycle into their other immunities for nice power-damage mitigation for a longer duration) and some of the larger damage coefficients in the game (whereas rangers have lower coefficients due to their pets supposedly significantly contributing to the fight).

I'm not saying warriors are universally better at everything, but there are certainly things they
are
better at.

~ Kovu

You said warrior is the kryptonite to ranger which highly indicates a hard counter, which warrior just isnt.

A hardcounter to warrior would be like dragon hunter vs warrior, which definately isnt the case in a warrior vs ranger.

My
kryptonite, as in me personally for the build
I
run. If I rolled condi I'd probably have better odds, or I could tank up on boonbeast and force a stalemate.

~ Kovu

Eveb if you rolled a propet longbiw build youd probably have much better odds

The main comparison of this thread seems to be how the OP's concerns with regard to mobility are invalid because they're "comparing apples to oranges", and while that may or may not be true everyone is busy talking about the strengths of the apple (ranger) and not of that of the orange (warrior). I thought I'd pipe in and talk about the orange for a little bit.But sure, disregard everything I mentioned in a previous post about how warriors can literally tank and regen power damage for days and reflect projectiles and assume pewpew to be a suitable counter. If you want to think that rangers are somehow omnipotent, I honestly can't stop you.

You guys can continue discussing the whole swoop nerf with Anput, I couldn't be kitten about that particular change.

~ Kovu

Since you believe that warrior is an omnipotent god, let me my religion that ranger is one. Sounds just as kitten as it is.

In what world can warrior tank power dmg for days? They have pretty much no source of protection (which ranger btw has)The reflect has to be traited and then still has traited 20sec cd its on 1 weapon, wowi, ranger gs even has a knockdown tied to their block.They have barely any source for regeneration (the boon).The biggest sustain comes from traits that are tied to hitting their burst skills, dodge those and they wont have that.

And dont get me started on endure pain, ranger has stone sig, just saying.

And yes, longbow ranger hits hard enough to pressure a warrior, especially if they use unblockables. Not that hard to slot such thing in. Also helps vs guards btw.Warrior is in no world a counter to ranger, thats just kitten.

@Anput.4620 said:

@RedShark.9548 said:You have like 3 or 4 ppl talking against you and
nobody really arguing for you
Oh, we're here. We're just tired of rehashing the same arguments over and over again year-in-and-year-out. In the end, 8-out-of-9 players approve of ranger nerfs.

As a ranger main, warrior is basically my kryptonite, but as it seems like warrior, ranger and elementalist saw the biggest nerfs and I'm not actually all that bummed about cooldown increases to the swoops. Those cooldowns are still fairly short, it is what it is. Honestly, its the continued nerfs to druid healing, core ranger, as well as weapons and utilities never seen in this gamemode that gets me.

Like, if Druid healing is overpowered in pve, nerf it in pve -- not here. ¯\
(ツ)

~ Kovu

In what world is warrior your kryptonite???Im serious, are we playing the same effing game? Sure you might not play a optimal build to fight warriors, but there sure as kitten are ranger builds that stomp warrior and laugh at him while doing it, in no world in warrior the counter to ranger kitten.

Yea, here we are again, multiple ppl trying to tell him why ranger has certain advantages over warrior, that justify longer cds on swoop, because they simply exist, no questions asked.

He has literally no argument, always just repeats "what about mesmer or thief" or "core war wrecks my build" no real explanation given and no understanding of the fact that other builds can wreck that core warrior.

Warrior mobility is only somewhat weaker than ranger's and generally good enough to catch rangers that initially commit to a fight, they have several tools to slow down rangers trying to run away via cripple, their damage in melee pre-patch dwarfs anything a ranger can put, much of that damage (pre-patch) coming attached to stuns, they have enough uptime on projectile reflection to counter ranged spam until they close the gap, arguably more damage mitigation, a larger health pool, higher base armor/defense, better stun break access and prevention, passive and active regeneration, the ability to be immune to critical hits (which they can cycle into their other immunities for nice power-damage mitigation for a longer duration) and some of the larger damage coefficients in the game (whereas rangers have lower coefficients due to their pets supposedly significantly contributing to the fight).

I'm not saying warriors are universally better at everything, but there are certainly things they
are
better at.

~ Kovu

You said warrior is the kryptonite to ranger which highly indicates a hard counter, which warrior just isnt.

A hardcounter to warrior would be like dragon hunter vs warrior, which definately isnt the case in a warrior vs ranger.

My
kryptonite, as in me personally for the build
I
run. If I rolled condi I'd probably have better odds, or I could tank up on boonbeast and force a stalemate.

~ Kovu

Eveb if you rolled a propet longbiw build youd probably have much better odds

@RedShark.9548 said:You have like 3 or 4 ppl talking against you and
nobody really arguing for you
Oh, we're here. We're just tired of rehashing the same arguments over and over again year-in-and-year-out. In the end, 8-out-of-9 players approve of ranger nerfs.

As a ranger main, warrior is basically my kryptonite, but as it seems like warrior, ranger and elementalist saw the biggest nerfs and I'm not actually all that bummed about cooldown increases to the swoops. Those cooldowns are still fairly short, it is what it is. Honestly, its the continued nerfs to druid healing, core ranger, as well as weapons and utilities never seen in this gamemode that gets me.

Like, if Druid healing is overpowered in pve, nerf it in pve -- not here. ¯\
(ツ)

~ Kovu

In what world is warrior your kryptonite???Im serious, are we playing the same effing game? Sure you might not play a optimal build to fight warriors, but there sure as kitten are ranger builds that stomp warrior and laugh at him while doing it, in no world in warrior the counter to ranger kitten.

Yea, here we are again, multiple ppl trying to tell him why ranger has certain advantages over warrior, that justify longer cds on swoop, because they simply exist, no questions asked.

He has literally no argument, always just repeats "what about mesmer or thief" or "core war wrecks my build" no real explanation given and no understanding of the fact that other builds can wreck that core warrior.

Warrior mobility is only somewhat weaker than ranger's and generally good enough to catch rangers that initially commit to a fight, they have several tools to slow down rangers trying to run away via cripple, their damage in melee pre-patch dwarfs anything a ranger can put, much of that damage (pre-patch) coming attached to stuns, they have enough uptime on projectile reflection to counter ranged spam until they close the gap, arguably more damage mitigation, a larger health pool, higher base armor/defense, better stun break access and prevention, passive and active regeneration, the ability to be immune to critical hits (which they can cycle into their other immunities for nice power-damage mitigation for a longer duration) and some of the larger damage coefficients in the game (whereas rangers have lower coefficients due to their pets supposedly significantly contributing to the fight).

I'm not saying warriors are universally better at everything, but there are certainly things they
are
better at.

~ Kovu

You said warrior is the kryptonite to ranger which highly indicates a hard counter, which warrior just isnt.

A hardcounter to warrior would be like dragon hunter vs warrior, which definately isnt the case in a warrior vs ranger.

My
kryptonite, as in me personally for the build
I
run. If I rolled condi I'd probably have better odds, or I could tank up on boonbeast and force a stalemate.

~ Kovu

Eveb if you rolled a propet longbiw build youd probably have much better odds

@RedShark.9548 said:You have like 3 or 4 ppl talking against you and
nobody really arguing for you
Oh, we're here. We're just tired of rehashing the same arguments over and over again year-in-and-year-out. In the end, 8-out-of-9 players approve of ranger nerfs.

As a ranger main, warrior is basically my kryptonite, but as it seems like warrior, ranger and elementalist saw the biggest nerfs and I'm not actually all that bummed about cooldown increases to the swoops. Those cooldowns are still fairly short, it is what it is. Honestly, its the continued nerfs to druid healing, core ranger, as well as weapons and utilities never seen in this gamemode that gets me.

Like, if Druid healing is overpowered in pve, nerf it in pve -- not here. ¯\
(ツ)

~ Kovu

In what world is warrior your kryptonite???Im serious, are we playing the same effing game? Sure you might not play a optimal build to fight warriors, but there sure as kitten are ranger builds that stomp warrior and laugh at him while doing it, in no world in warrior the counter to ranger kitten.

Yea, here we are again, multiple ppl trying to tell him why ranger has certain advantages over warrior, that justify longer cds on swoop, because they simply exist, no questions asked.

He has literally no argument, always just repeats "what about mesmer or thief" or "core war wrecks my build" no real explanation given and no understanding of the fact that other builds can wreck that core warrior.

Warrior mobility is only somewhat weaker than ranger's and generally good enough to catch rangers that initially commit to a fight, they have several tools to slow down rangers trying to run away via cripple, their damage in melee pre-patch dwarfs anything a ranger can put, much of that damage (pre-patch) coming attached to stuns, they have enough uptime on projectile reflection to counter ranged spam until they close the gap, arguably more damage mitigation, a larger health pool, higher base armor/defense, better stun break access and prevention, passive and active regeneration, the ability to be immune to critical hits (which they can cycle into their other immunities for nice power-damage mitigation for a longer duration) and some of the larger damage coefficients in the game (whereas rangers have lower coefficients due to their pets supposedly significantly contributing to the fight).

I'm not saying warriors are universally better at everything, but there are certainly things they
are
better at.

~ Kovu

You said warrior is the kryptonite to ranger which highly indicates a hard counter, which warrior just isnt.

A hardcounter to warrior would be like dragon hunter vs warrior, which definately isnt the case in a warrior vs ranger.

My
kryptonite, as in me personally for the build
I
run. If I rolled condi I'd probably have better odds, or I could tank up on boonbeast and force a stalemate.

~ Kovu

Eveb if you rolled a propet longbiw build youd probably have much better odds

Why is LB literally the only valid build to you lol.

I also mainly care about my mobility relative to a Warclaw as that is important to not get ganked, 15s cd on swoop would be fine if Warclaw didn't exist.

@Anput.4620 said:Reading again, why is Soulbeast Swoop getting almost double the cooldown while other classes mobility cooldowns are barely touched? Warrior has no increased cooldowns on GS mobility while Rangers GS swoop also got nerfed.

What leap has 18s cd?!

Because double swoop is a thing, both of which are on relatively short CDs. Also, Bull's Charge is a leap with a 30s CD, but then it is also a hard CC so it has a higher CD. Rush, the skill you are referring to is 20s CD untraited. So what is happening is Ranger (Soulbeast really) is getting their OP mobility brought more in line with others. Now if only thieves got more of their mobility nerfed...

How is that more in line at all? Rush is 20s because the weapon has 2 mobility skills on 1 weapon. Whirlwind attack has a whopping 10s cd which is the same as old meld Swoop.

Both swoops will now have an 15 and 18s cd respectively which is way longer than any other mobility profession, Thief can still spam SB5, Mesmer got 5 more seconds on Blink, nothing else, so can still teleport 4k range away in 3 seconds.

Thief, Mesmer and Ranger are known as the mobility professions, and only one of them got their mobility CD's gutted, i don't care about all the other changes which other classes got too with the lower damage etc, i do not like the higher CD's though, but just hitting Swoops and no one elses?

Whats double Swoop going to do when you are in combat with a Thief and their 2 ganking buddies on Warclaws charge at you in the distance? We need to drastically reduce Warclaw speed so you can still escape those ganking groups.

Warrior is often full melee class, outside of troll killshot builds, they need mobility to stay with a target. This is a bit OP right now because of warrior sustain and hard CC still hitting like a truck, however after the patch those hard CCs will be doing more or less 0 dmg and sustain will be going down as well. Soulbeast isn't hurting for mobility, they have some of the highest in the game for a class that can kite at 1,800 range, warrior can't do that. Mobility across the board was nerfed, guard GS LoF which is only 600 range, not 1,000 like soulbeast GS, is also seeing a CD increase to 15s.

You might want to read the patch notes about OTHER classes as well. Soulbeast does indeed right now have to much mobility, after the patch with nerfs to hard CC, mobility and kiting are going to be just that much more powerful. And looking at everything else, the nerfs look inline with most others, we will have to wait for live to see how it all plays out in the game.

How are the nerfs inline with Thieves and Mesmers which are the other mobile classes? I don't see any nerfs for them except 5 more seconds on Mes blink.

The problem is that the Warclaw still has the same speed, going OOC when you see 3 poeple on cats going towards you while fighting a mob will be that much harder and this only helps ganking groups.

Staff on mes saw an increased CD on Phase Retreat, increased CD on Blink, Mirage loses a dodge and as such doubles the CD of sword leap. For Thief, Death's Retreat saw a initiative cost increase, Withdraw saw a CD increase, along with other things and other initiative cost increases that effect all skill use on thief.

So I will ask again, did you read the patch notes for any of the other classes?

Warclaw was already talked about in the balance threads, they agree it is to powerful, and that a dodge will probably end up getting removed, and run speed will be the same across all areas with a possible over all reduction, people were asking for swiftness speed only. If that happens, then you would still be able to out run them. You also should not just be guaranteed escape because you are on soulbeast.

Mirage loses a dodge which is true, but most i see don't use staff, the oneshot builds or condi builds, the Thiefs abilities can still be spammed to run away, the initiative increases only hurt when you actually want to use the mobility while fighting, if you play defensive for a bit you can still shortbow out of there right after, i say this as someone that plays staff Thief and doesn't get the vault nerf because i literally see no other staff thiefs, the rifle nerf only affects DE and i am more worried about shortbow.

I don't play Mesmer so my knowledge on skill names is limmited but as someone that also plays Thief a lot the only nerfs that hurt a lot is vault to 6 and some cd increases like roll, nothing as bad as Swoop almost getting double the CD, heck, make it 15s, but 18 is just way too much on something that is just a dash.

@Anput.4620 said:Reading again, why is Soulbeast Swoop getting almost double the cooldown while other classes mobility cooldowns are barely touched? Warrior has no increased cooldowns on GS mobility while Rangers GS swoop also got nerfed.

What leap has 18s cd?!

Because double swoop is a thing, both of which are on relatively short CDs. Also, Bull's Charge is a leap with a 30s CD, but then it is also a hard CC so it has a higher CD. Rush, the skill you are referring to is 20s CD untraited. So what is happening is Ranger (Soulbeast really) is getting their OP mobility brought more in line with others. Now if only thieves got more of their mobility nerfed...

How is that more in line at all? Rush is 20s because the weapon has 2 mobility skills on 1 weapon. Whirlwind attack has a whopping 10s cd which is the same as old meld Swoop.

Both swoops will now have an 15 and 18s cd respectively which is way longer than any other mobility profession, Thief can still spam SB5, Mesmer got 5 more seconds on Blink, nothing else, so can still teleport 4k range away in 3 seconds.

Thief, Mesmer and Ranger are known as the mobility professions, and only one of them got their mobility CD's gutted, i don't care about all the other changes which other classes got too with the lower damage etc, i do not like the higher CD's though, but just hitting Swoops and no one elses?

Whats double Swoop going to do when you are in combat with a Thief and their 2 ganking buddies on Warclaws charge at you in the distance? We need to drastically reduce Warclaw speed so you can still escape those ganking groups.

Warrior is often full melee class, outside of troll killshot builds, they need mobility to stay with a target. This is a bit OP right now because of warrior sustain and hard CC still hitting like a truck, however after the patch those hard CCs will be doing more or less 0 dmg and sustain will be going down as well. Soulbeast isn't hurting for mobility, they have some of the highest in the game for a class that can kite at 1,800 range, warrior can't do that. Mobility across the board was nerfed, guard GS LoF which is only 600 range, not 1,000 like soulbeast GS, is also seeing a CD increase to 15s.

You might want to read the patch notes about OTHER classes as well. Soulbeast does indeed right now have to much mobility, after the patch with nerfs to hard CC, mobility and kiting are going to be just that much more powerful. And looking at everything else, the nerfs look inline with most others, we will have to wait for live to see how it all plays out in the game.

How are the nerfs inline with Thieves and Mesmers which are the other mobile classes? I don't see any nerfs for them except 5 more seconds on Mes blink.

The problem is that the Warclaw still has the same speed, going OOC when you see 3 poeple on cats going towards you while fighting a mob will be that much harder and this only helps ganking groups.

@Anput.4620 said:Reading again, why is Soulbeast Swoop getting almost double the cooldown while other classes mobility cooldowns are barely touched? Warrior has no increased cooldowns on GS mobility while Rangers GS swoop also got nerfed.

What leap has 18s cd?!

Because double swoop is a thing, both of which are on relatively short CDs. Also, Bull's Charge is a leap with a 30s CD, but then it is also a hard CC so it has a higher CD. Rush, the skill you are referring to is 20s CD untraited. So what is happening is Ranger (Soulbeast really) is getting their OP mobility brought more in line with others. Now if only thieves got more of their mobility nerfed...

How is that more in line at all? Rush is 20s because the weapon has 2 mobility skills on 1 weapon. Whirlwind attack has a whopping 10s cd which is the same as old meld Swoop.

Both swoops will now have an 15 and 18s cd respectively which is way longer than any other mobility profession, Thief can still spam SB5, Mesmer got 5 more seconds on Blink, nothing else, so can still teleport 4k range away in 3 seconds.

Thief, Mesmer and Ranger are known as the mobility professions, and only one of them got their mobility CD's gutted, i don't care about all the other changes which other classes got too with the lower damage etc, i do not like the higher CD's though, but just hitting Swoops and no one elses?

Whats double Swoop going to do when you are in combat with a Thief and their 2 ganking buddies on Warclaws charge at you in the distance? We need to drastically reduce Warclaw speed so you can still escape those ganking groups.

Double swoop is 2400 range. Whirlwind attack+rush is 1650 range. Double swoop is more mobility per CD than WWA+Rush.

Swoop is 2200 range, Warriors still have another weapon set in Dagger for spellbreaker to have a small dash too, Warrior was also never considered a mobility class and has other things, like stupid damage in core.

@Anput.4620 said:Reading again, why is Soulbeast Swoop getting almost double the cooldown while other classes mobility cooldowns are barely touched? Warrior has no increased cooldowns on GS mobility while Rangers GS swoop also got nerfed.

What leap has 18s cd?!

Because double swoop is a thing, both of which are on relatively short CDs. Also, Bull's Charge is a leap with a 30s CD, but then it is also a hard CC so it has a higher CD. Rush, the skill you are referring to is 20s CD untraited. So what is happening is Ranger (Soulbeast really) is getting their OP mobility brought more in line with others. Now if only thieves got more of their mobility nerfed...

How is that more in line at all? Rush is 20s because the weapon has 2 mobility skills on 1 weapon. Whirlwind attack has a whopping 10s cd which is the same as old meld Swoop.

Both swoops will now have an 15 and 18s cd respectively which is way longer than any other mobility profession, Thief can still spam SB5, Mesmer got 5 more seconds on Blink, nothing else, so can still teleport 4k range away in 3 seconds.

Thief, Mesmer and Ranger are known as the mobility professions, and only one of them got their mobility CD's gutted, i don't care about all the other changes which other classes got too with the lower damage etc, i do not like the higher CD's though, but just hitting Swoops and no one elses?

Whats double Swoop going to do when you are in combat with a Thief and their 2 ganking buddies on Warclaws charge at you in the distance? We need to drastically reduce Warclaw speed so you can still escape those ganking groups.

Where are these thieves with unlimited initiative you speak of?

I am saying that they can still spam the same amount so their relative mobility goes up.

The same amount isn't all that much and they're still left with the exact same options after they've blown that initiative. Except after the patch, turning and unloading a burst won't be an option. Shortbow mobility isn't what's wrong with thief.

Soulbeast lasted the longest out of any class with a killer tool kit at their disposal. Cutting their mobility and sustain, especially relative to all the other class changes, on paper, doesn't seem bad imo. Looking at it with blinders on before you can even play it is just unnecessary stress.

Im just imagining ganking groups on cats running me down and i have no mobility to not get chased and corpse jumped on. If Warclaw had swiftness speed i wouldn't mind as much, 18 seconds on just a dash is insane though, 15 would be more fair.

@Anput.4620 said:Reading again, why is Soulbeast Swoop getting almost double the cooldown while other classes mobility cooldowns are barely touched? Warrior has no increased cooldowns on GS mobility while Rangers GS swoop also got nerfed.

What leap has 18s cd?!

because ranger has very good ranged options, has access to stealth, and overall good mobility.while warrior is mostly full melee, has no way to stealth without others and has to be able to stick to their target, because thats the only way to apply pressure.you are comparing oranges with apples

Except core warrior is way more broken atm.

Stealth is also very limited, i don't use either smokescale or longbow.

And what about thieves and mesmers?

@Anput.4620 said:Reading again, why is Soulbeast Swoop getting almost double the cooldown while other classes mobility cooldowns are barely touched? Warrior has no increased cooldowns on GS mobility while Rangers GS swoop also got nerfed.

What leap has 18s cd?!

because ranger has very good ranged options, has access to stealth, and overall good mobility.while warrior is mostly full melee, has no way to stealth without others and has to be able to stick to their target, because thats the only way to apply pressure.you are comparing oranges with apples

Very much this^This post is a good example of why simply comparing one classes skill to ur own and thinking cuz their similar they should follow the same parameters is never a good way to try and argue a nerf or for a buff.

Core war is infinitely better. And what about thieves and mesmers?

In what regard is core war infinitely better than soulbeast? Ranger cant kite warriors so hard and have more or same amount of sustain atm.

Its not my fault you dont play the strong stuff, longbow and smokescale are definately very very viable and just because YOU dont play those doesnt mean your mobility should get buffed, lol.

Use the tools the game gives you. And if you dont use them, dont cry for buffs, seriously. Anet wont buff mobility, just because you dont like your stealth options.Imagine someone dares to like longbow AND smallscale and gets mobility buffs ontop, just because you need that with your special snowflake build. Oof. Nightmares.

I was just answering about warrior, because i know warrior best and i do agree that thief, mesmer and warclaw mobility need to be toned down as they are right now.

You are telling me that right now in the game you can outrun a warclaw? Well there you have your answer, mobility nerf WELL deserved, cant do that on warrior.

Core warriors have way more sustain while being able to use Zerker gear and spike for stupid amounts of damage.

I play Boonbeast with a greatsword axe and warhorn, how is that a bad build by any means? Not everyone plays glass damage builds. I easilly beat most glass rangers with this build as this build excells against glass builds, but any build that also has simillar sustain but way more damage, like core warrior, just wrecks it, all i can do is be on the defensive, kite, and not die as i don't get a chance to do enough damage.

So u play soulbeast who has a way more effective and versatile ranged weapon with lb than any other class and for sure warrior and ur complaining that ur melee builds are also not superior to the class who SHOULD be the king of melee (warrior) as rangers are king of range. Cmon man u serious? I donno if I'd even put warrior ahead in melee compared to ranger though it definitely should be. With that said soulbeast as a whole has great mobility and the fact u chose to play a build that runs with less mobility than comparing it to classes running higher mobility builds is funny. If a warrior isnt running gs or bullscharge what crazy mobility does it have? Yeah.

How am i running less mobility? My build still has double swoop.

I "literally" never said that longbow is the only valid build for ranger. I said that you cant just have everything in one build, jesus, and thats what you exactly want, you want insane mobility, you want stealth and big damages.

You have to make decisions, take one and leave something else, its not hard to understand that concept.You already said, you destroy other builds with your boonbeast, so why do you think it should destroy EVERY build out there?

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@RedShark.9548 I started typing a post and then realized I was literally rehashing the same stuff I said three posts ago.We're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

The patch will hit, we'll see how things play out with the nerfs.

~ Kovu

edit- @"Anput.4620" You're right, nobody should have to deal with "warclaw BS", but that speaks more to the necessity of a nerf to warclaw than it does to not nerfing the mobility on high-mobility professions.

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@Anput.4620 said:

@Anput.4620 said:Reading again, why is Soulbeast Swoop getting almost double the cooldown while other classes mobility cooldowns are barely touched? Warrior has no increased cooldowns on GS mobility while Rangers GS swoop also got nerfed.

What leap has 18s cd?!

Because double swoop is a thing, both of which are on relatively short CDs. Also, Bull's Charge is a leap with a 30s CD, but then it is also a hard CC so it has a higher CD. Rush, the skill you are referring to is 20s CD untraited. So what is happening is Ranger (Soulbeast really) is getting their OP mobility brought more in line with others. Now if only thieves got more of their mobility nerfed...

How is that more in line at all? Rush is 20s because the weapon has 2 mobility skills on 1 weapon. Whirlwind attack has a whopping 10s cd which is the same as old meld Swoop.

Both swoops will now have an 15 and 18s cd respectively which is way longer than any other mobility profession, Thief can still spam SB5, Mesmer got 5 more seconds on Blink, nothing else, so can still teleport 4k range away in 3 seconds.

Thief, Mesmer and Ranger are known as the mobility professions, and only one of them got their mobility CD's gutted, i don't care about all the other changes which other classes got too with the lower damage etc, i do not like the higher CD's though, but just hitting Swoops and no one elses?

Whats double Swoop going to do when you are in combat with a Thief and their 2 ganking buddies on Warclaws charge at you in the distance? We need to drastically reduce Warclaw speed so you can still escape those ganking groups.

Where are these thieves with unlimited initiative you speak of?

I am saying that they can still spam the same amount so their relative mobility goes up.

what is the problem exactly? in core no1 could keep up with thief either..people still cant keep up with me on thief so what exactly is the problem? the amount of leaps and mobility in the game got so overbuffed in HoT and PoF that thief was actually close to losing it just cus we can do it more often we still had the upper hand but w/e nerf thief its nothing new :D

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@KryTiKaL.3125 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:So if ur running double swoop then ur mobility is more than sufficient with ur effective range.

At the moment, but with 18s CD it will be bad, i already have trouble catching Thieves with their shadowsteps, after this Warrior will easilly outmobility Ranger and Ranger won't even want to try to keep up with Thieves, also range totally depends on the build, my highest range comes from my throwing axe in the build i play.

It won't be bad with an 18 second cooldown on Bird Swoop, and with you still being able to get a 12 second CD on GS Swoop when traited, which is still an evade, your mobility will be
just fine
. If you're running Boonbeast there was more that needed to be done to bring it in line and not have it be the overtuned nonsense that it was. Which it did see. Moa Stance nerfed, boon durations nerfed, CD increases on your Stability, Bambi saw nerfs to damage, reduction to Concentration from your taits, etc. Boonbeast was literally one of
the
examples as to why Boons have been a prime contributor to the power creep in the game.

I assume you're running some variant of the Boonbeast build, or just rather the standard axe-axe/sword-warhorn and yes you have more limited range compared to Longbow, but it isn't like Boonbeast lacks in sustain, even with boon rip, the frequency in which Soulbeast can reapply boons has been
excessive
and their ability to hard disengage as much as they have been, either with double swoop or just the one swoop, easily allows them to buy more than enough time for cooldowns to reset. Their Might gen, constant Protection and Regeneration on top of the large stacks of Stability that last for well over 30 seconds. Moa Stance, pop Dolyak Stance, pop Strength of the Pack, and merge with pet (to then gain all of the boons you
just
gave it) you can very easily achieve around 45 seconds of Stability and it is a
large
stack of it. That is all with Mara/Zerk gear or just full Mara gear with Dura runes. Not even building Concentration, in fact the 240 Concentration you
do
get from Lingering Magic gives you another 16% Boon Duration, thats why they cut that down.

With the build you say you run, at least what I can somewhat assume it is, your swoop right now has a 10 second cooldown. That is
short
and by no means do you need it every
10 seconds
if you're properly managing cooldowns. You still have evades off of your mainhand sword skills, some of which are also mobility, on top of the egregious amount of boons you're able to apply to yourself. Unless said Core Warrior you're fighting is somehow running more boon rip than a Spellbreaker...that isn't exactly a scenario that is very easy for the Core Warrior as the only boon rip they can possible get is from sigils, which either have cooldowns or are completely contingent upon a CC skill actually causing an interrupt and not just hitting.

The most this update will do is cause you to be smarter about when you use your merge swoop as opposed to just pressing it every 10 seconds purely because you can.

@Kovu.7560 I wouldn't dispute that Core Warrior is strong, however thats a moot point considering pretty much
everything
right now is overtuned which was why such a wide sweeping patch like this needs to happen. Warrior in general did need to get touched on, but not nearly as much as other classes and truthfully the things they needed to hit on Warrior in general they did hit. Might generation, sustain off of that insane Might generation, the passives being a massive crutch mechanic that were very widely used, Bull's Charge getting its damage reduced because it was still able to nuke people, Rampage skills seeing damage reductions, and Reckless Dodge getting its damage reduced as well. Most of the problems got hit. The only lingering one I'd say is Adrenal Health and similar Burst related traits still proccing even if Full Counter doesn't actually hit, which is a contrary function compared to other burst skills (Longbow burst being the only exception) where if Eviscerate or Arcing Slice either miss or are otherwise negated (dodged, blinded, invuln'd, blocked) they do not proc those traits.

Like i said, i am not complaining about anything else, just the swoop CD, if it was 15s i wouldn't even have complained, 18 is just outrageous.

Also, core warrior does way more damage to me while i can't scratch them, i can force a stalemate yes, but mainly by swooping around.

@Voltekka.2375 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:So if ur running double swoop then ur mobility is more than sufficient with ur effective range.

At the moment, but with 18s CD it will be bad, i already have trouble catching Thieves with their shadowsteps, after this Warrior will easilly outmobility Ranger and Ranger won't even want to try to keep up with Thieves, also range totally depends on the build, my highest range comes from my throwing axe in the build i play.

I get that it sucks ur losing a bit of mobility but with rangers ability to hit a target for decent damage at 1200+ range should u really have been able to catch a thief or warrior using mobility skills in the first place?

Why do you assume everyone runs glassbow? Why shouldn't a ranger have mobility?

@Voltekka.2375 said:It is almost as if like certain people jump from a nerfed broken build to the next broken build, and QQ when said broken build will get rightly nerfed, cause they get classcarried. Almost.

I have mained ranger for a long time now, boonbeast specifically.

@Anput.4620 said:I also mainly care about my mobility relative to a Warclaw as that is important to not get ganked, 15s cd on swoop would be fine if Warclaw didn't exist.For what its worth I'm pretty sure the warclaw movement is being reduced to not-in-your-territory movement and (possibly?) the dodges will be affected as well. I can't find an Anet post on the matter, but folks around the forum seem to indicate that's a thing that's been discussed. Longbow on ranger is still one of the better tools for dealing with mounted players and the brief knockdown off their pet often allows an extra free shot or two. Plus if they're running away they're probably starting the fight some distance from you so you can pew pew to your heart's content. If they're a thief, mesmer or a bunker build they may still escape, but
everyone
has to deal with this fact.

It is true some of the other professions escaped minor mobility nerfs but rangers are still arguably in the best position to deal with mounted runners. So there's that at least.

~ Kovu

@Anput.4620 said:I also mainly care about my mobility relative to a Warclaw as that is important to not get ganked, 15s cd on swoop would be fine if Warclaw didn't exist.For what its worth I'm pretty sure the warclaw movement is being reduced to not-in-your-territory movement and (possibly?) the dodges will be affected as well. I can't find an Anet post on the matter, but folks around the forum seem to indicate that's a thing that's been discussed. Longbow on ranger is still one of the better tools for dealing with mounted players and the brief knockdown off their pet often allows an extra free shot or two. Plus if they're running away they're probably starting the fight some distance from you so you can pew pew to your heart's content. If they're a thief, mesmer or a bunker build they may still escape, but
everyone
has to deal with this fact.

It is true some of the other professions escaped minor mobility nerfs but rangers are still arguably in the best position to deal with mounted runners. So there's that at least.

~ Kovu

Movement speed normalization everywhere will just make it so you can't chase someone/escape someone ever anymore depending on what range you spot them.

I don't play Longbow but boonbeast. You are telling me that everyone has to deal with this warclaw BS, but no one should have to, make the darn thing swiftness speed.

You used to main permastealth deadeye prenerf, and jumped to boonbeast after.

I mained Spellbreaker and Thief was my alt, after that i swapped to Boonbeast when that became a thing as it was the most fun thing ever.

@RedShark.9548 said:

@RedShark.9548 said:You have like 3 or 4 ppl talking against you and
nobody really arguing for you
Oh, we're here. We're just tired of rehashing the same arguments over and over again year-in-and-year-out. In the end, 8-out-of-9 players approve of ranger nerfs.

As a ranger main, warrior is basically my kryptonite, but as it seems like warrior, ranger and elementalist saw the biggest nerfs and I'm not actually all that bummed about cooldown increases to the swoops. Those cooldowns are still fairly short, it is what it is. Honestly, its the continued nerfs to druid healing, core ranger, as well as weapons and utilities never seen in this gamemode that gets me.

Like, if Druid healing is overpowered in pve, nerf it in pve -- not here. ¯\
(ツ)

~ Kovu

In what world is warrior your kryptonite???Im serious, are we playing the same effing game? Sure you might not play a optimal build to fight warriors, but there sure as kitten are ranger builds that stomp warrior and laugh at him while doing it, in no world in warrior the counter to ranger kitten.

Yea, here we are again, multiple ppl trying to tell him why ranger has certain advantages over warrior, that justify longer cds on swoop, because they simply exist, no questions asked.

He has literally no argument, always just repeats "what about mesmer or thief" or "core war wrecks my build" no real explanation given and no understanding of the fact that other builds can wreck that core warrior.

Warrior mobility is only somewhat weaker than ranger's and generally good enough to catch rangers that initially commit to a fight, they have several tools to slow down rangers trying to run away via cripple, their damage in melee pre-patch dwarfs anything a ranger can put, much of that damage (pre-patch) coming attached to stuns, they have enough uptime on projectile reflection to counter ranged spam until they close the gap, arguably more damage mitigation, a larger health pool, higher base armor/defense, better stun break access and prevention, passive and active regeneration, the ability to be immune to critical hits (which they can cycle into their other immunities for nice power-damage mitigation for a longer duration) and some of the larger damage coefficients in the game (whereas rangers have lower coefficients due to their pets supposedly significantly contributing to the fight).

I'm not saying warriors are universally better at everything, but there are certainly things they
are
better at.

~ Kovu

You said warrior is the kryptonite to ranger which highly indicates a hard counter, which warrior just isnt.

A hardcounter to warrior would be like dragon hunter vs warrior, which definately isnt the case in a warrior vs ranger.

My
kryptonite, as in me personally for the build
I
run. If I rolled condi I'd probably have better odds, or I could tank up on boonbeast and force a stalemate.

~ Kovu

Eveb if you rolled a propet longbiw build youd probably have much better odds

The main comparison of this thread seems to be how the OP's concerns with regard to mobility are invalid because they're "comparing apples to oranges", and while that may or may not be true everyone is busy talking about the strengths of the apple (ranger) and not of that of the orange (warrior). I thought I'd pipe in and talk about the orange for a little bit.But sure, disregard everything I mentioned in a previous post about how warriors can literally tank and regen power damage for days and reflect projectiles and assume pewpew to be a suitable counter. If you want to think that rangers are somehow omnipotent, I honestly can't stop you.

You guys can continue discussing the whole swoop nerf with Anput, I couldn't be kitten about that particular change.

~ Kovu

Since you believe that warrior is an omnipotent god, let me my religion that ranger is one. Sounds just as kitten as it is.

In what world can warrior tank power dmg for days? They have pretty much no source of protection (which ranger btw has)The reflect has to be traited and then still has traited 20sec cd its on 1 weapon, wowi, ranger gs even has a knockdown tied to their block.They have barely any source for regeneration (the boon).The biggest sustain comes from traits that are tied to hitting their burst skills, dodge those and they wont have that.

And dont get me started on endure pain, ranger has stone sig, just saying.

And yes, longbow ranger hits hard enough to pressure a warrior, especially if they use unblockables. Not that hard to slot such thing in. Also helps vs guards btw.Warrior is in no world a counter to ranger, thats just kitten.

@RedShark.9548 said:You have like 3 or 4 ppl talking against you and
nobody really arguing for you
Oh, we're here. We're just tired of rehashing the same arguments over and over again year-in-and-year-out. In the end, 8-out-of-9 players approve of ranger nerfs.

As a ranger main, warrior is basically my kryptonite, but as it seems like warrior, ranger and elementalist saw the biggest nerfs and I'm not actually all that bummed about cooldown increases to the swoops. Those cooldowns are still fairly short, it is what it is. Honestly, its the continued nerfs to druid healing, core ranger, as well as weapons and utilities never seen in this gamemode that gets me.

Like, if Druid healing is overpowered in pve, nerf it in pve -- not here. ¯\
(ツ)

~ Kovu

In what world is warrior your kryptonite???Im serious, are we playing the same effing game? Sure you might not play a optimal build to fight warriors, but there sure as kitten are ranger builds that stomp warrior and laugh at him while doing it, in no world in warrior the counter to ranger kitten.

Yea, here we are again, multiple ppl trying to tell him why ranger has certain advantages over warrior, that justify longer cds on swoop, because they simply exist, no questions asked.

He has literally no argument, always just repeats "what about mesmer or thief" or "core war wrecks my build" no real explanation given and no understanding of the fact that other builds can wreck that core warrior.

Warrior mobility is only somewhat weaker than ranger's and generally good enough to catch rangers that initially commit to a fight, they have several tools to slow down rangers trying to run away via cripple, their damage in melee pre-patch dwarfs anything a ranger can put, much of that damage (pre-patch) coming attached to stuns, they have enough uptime on projectile reflection to counter ranged spam until they close the gap, arguably more damage mitigation, a larger health pool, higher base armor/defense, better stun break access and prevention, passive and active regeneration, the ability to be immune to critical hits (which they can cycle into their other immunities for nice power-damage mitigation for a longer duration) and some of the larger damage coefficients in the game (whereas rangers have lower coefficients due to their pets supposedly significantly contributing to the fight).

I'm not saying warriors are universally better at everything, but there are certainly things they
are
better at.

~ Kovu

You said warrior is the kryptonite to ranger which highly indicates a hard counter, which warrior just isnt.

A hardcounter to warrior would be like dragon hunter vs warrior, which definately isnt the case in a warrior vs ranger.

My
kryptonite, as in me personally for the build
I
run. If I rolled condi I'd probably have better odds, or I could tank up on boonbeast and force a stalemate.

~ Kovu

Eveb if you rolled a propet longbiw build youd probably have much better odds

@RedShark.9548 said:You have like 3 or 4 ppl talking against you and
nobody really arguing for you
Oh, we're here. We're just tired of rehashing the same arguments over and over again year-in-and-year-out. In the end, 8-out-of-9 players approve of ranger nerfs.

As a ranger main, warrior is basically my kryptonite, but as it seems like warrior, ranger and elementalist saw the biggest nerfs and I'm not actually all that bummed about cooldown increases to the swoops. Those cooldowns are still fairly short, it is what it is. Honestly, its the continued nerfs to druid healing, core ranger, as well as weapons and utilities never seen in this gamemode that gets me.

Like, if Druid healing is overpowered in pve, nerf it in pve -- not here. ¯\
(ツ)

~ Kovu

In what world is warrior your kryptonite???Im serious, are we playing the same effing game? Sure you might not play a optimal build to fight warriors, but there sure as kitten are ranger builds that stomp warrior and laugh at him while doing it, in no world in warrior the counter to ranger kitten.

Yea, here we are again, multiple ppl trying to tell him why ranger has certain advantages over warrior, that justify longer cds on swoop, because they simply exist, no questions asked.

He has literally no argument, always just repeats "what about mesmer or thief" or "core war wrecks my build" no real explanation given and no understanding of the fact that other builds can wreck that core warrior.

Warrior mobility is only somewhat weaker than ranger's and generally good enough to catch rangers that initially commit to a fight, they have several tools to slow down rangers trying to run away via cripple, their damage in melee pre-patch dwarfs anything a ranger can put, much of that damage (pre-patch) coming attached to stuns, they have enough uptime on projectile reflection to counter ranged spam until they close the gap, arguably more damage mitigation, a larger health pool, higher base armor/defense, better stun break access and prevention, passive and active regeneration, the ability to be immune to critical hits (which they can cycle into their other immunities for nice power-damage mitigation for a longer duration) and some of the larger damage coefficients in the game (whereas rangers have lower coefficients due to their pets supposedly significantly contributing to the fight).

I'm not saying warriors are universally better at everything, but there are certainly things they
are
better at.

~ Kovu

You said warrior is the kryptonite to ranger which highly indicates a hard counter, which warrior just isnt.

A hardcounter to warrior would be like dragon hunter vs warrior, which definately isnt the case in a warrior vs ranger.

My
kryptonite, as in me personally for the build
I
run. If I rolled condi I'd probably have better odds, or I could tank up on boonbeast and force a stalemate.

~ Kovu

Eveb if you rolled a propet longbiw build youd probably have much better odds

@RedShark.9548 said:You have like 3 or 4 ppl talking against you and
nobody really arguing for you
Oh, we're here. We're just tired of rehashing the same arguments over and over again year-in-and-year-out. In the end, 8-out-of-9 players approve of ranger nerfs.

As a ranger main, warrior is basically my kryptonite, but as it seems like warrior, ranger and elementalist saw the biggest nerfs and I'm not actually all that bummed about cooldown increases to the swoops. Those cooldowns are still fairly short, it is what it is. Honestly, its the continued nerfs to druid healing, core ranger, as well as weapons and utilities never seen in this gamemode that gets me.

Like, if Druid healing is overpowered in pve, nerf it in pve -- not here. ¯\
(ツ)

~ Kovu

In what world is warrior your kryptonite???Im serious, are we playing the same effing game? Sure you might not play a optimal build to fight warriors, but there sure as kitten are ranger builds that stomp warrior and laugh at him while doing it, in no world in warrior the counter to ranger kitten.

Yea, here we are again, multiple ppl trying to tell him why ranger has certain advantages over warrior, that justify longer cds on swoop, because they simply exist, no questions asked.

He has literally no argument, always just repeats "what about mesmer or thief" or "core war wrecks my build" no real explanation given and no understanding of the fact that other builds can wreck that core warrior.

Warrior mobility is only somewhat weaker than ranger's and generally good enough to catch rangers that initially commit to a fight, they have several tools to slow down rangers trying to run away via cripple, their damage in melee pre-patch dwarfs anything a ranger can put, much of that damage (pre-patch) coming attached to stuns, they have enough uptime on projectile reflection to counter ranged spam until they close the gap, arguably more damage mitigation, a larger health pool, higher base armor/defense, better stun break access and prevention, passive and active regeneration, the ability to be immune to critical hits (which they can cycle into their other immunities for nice power-damage mitigation for a longer duration) and some of the larger damage coefficients in the game (whereas rangers have lower coefficients due to their pets supposedly significantly contributing to the fight).

I'm not saying warriors are universally better at everything, but there are certainly things they
are
better at.

~ Kovu

You said warrior is the kryptonite to ranger which highly indicates a hard counter, which warrior just isnt.

A hardcounter to warrior would be like dragon hunter vs warrior, which definately isnt the case in a warrior vs ranger.

My
kryptonite, as in me personally for the build
I
run. If I rolled condi I'd probably have better odds, or I could tank up on boonbeast and force a stalemate.

~ Kovu

Eveb if you rolled a propet longbiw build youd probably have much better odds

Why is LB literally the only valid build to you lol.

I also mainly care about my mobility relative to a Warclaw as that is important to not get ganked, 15s cd on swoop would be fine if Warclaw didn't exist.

@Anput.4620 said:Reading again, why is Soulbeast Swoop getting almost double the cooldown while other classes mobility cooldowns are barely touched? Warrior has no increased cooldowns on GS mobility while Rangers GS swoop also got nerfed.

What leap has 18s cd?!

Because double swoop is a thing, both of which are on relatively short CDs. Also, Bull's Charge is a leap with a 30s CD, but then it is also a hard CC so it has a higher CD. Rush, the skill you are referring to is 20s CD untraited. So what is happening is Ranger (Soulbeast really) is getting their OP mobility brought more in line with others. Now if only thieves got more of their mobility nerfed...

How is that more in line at all? Rush is 20s because the weapon has 2 mobility skills on 1 weapon. Whirlwind attack has a whopping 10s cd which is the same as old meld Swoop.

Both swoops will now have an 15 and 18s cd respectively which is way longer than any other mobility profession, Thief can still spam SB5, Mesmer got 5 more seconds on Blink, nothing else, so can still teleport 4k range away in 3 seconds.

Thief, Mesmer and Ranger are known as the mobility professions, and only one of them got their mobility CD's gutted, i don't care about all the other changes which other classes got too with the lower damage etc, i do not like the higher CD's though, but just hitting Swoops and no one elses?

Whats double Swoop going to do when you are in combat with a Thief and their 2 ganking buddies on Warclaws charge at you in the distance? We need to drastically reduce Warclaw speed so you can still escape those ganking groups.

Warrior is often full melee class, outside of troll killshot builds, they need mobility to stay with a target. This is a bit OP right now because of warrior sustain and hard CC still hitting like a truck, however after the patch those hard CCs will be doing more or less 0 dmg and sustain will be going down as well. Soulbeast isn't hurting for mobility, they have some of the highest in the game for a class that can kite at 1,800 range, warrior can't do that. Mobility across the board was nerfed, guard GS LoF which is only 600 range, not 1,000 like soulbeast GS, is also seeing a CD increase to 15s.

You might want to read the patch notes about OTHER classes as well. Soulbeast does indeed right now have to much mobility, after the patch with nerfs to hard CC, mobility and kiting are going to be just that much more powerful. And looking at everything else, the nerfs look inline with most others, we will have to wait for live to see how it all plays out in the game.

How are the nerfs inline with Thieves and Mesmers which are the other mobile classes? I don't see any nerfs for them except 5 more seconds on Mes blink.

The problem is that the Warclaw still has the same speed, going OOC when you see 3 poeple on cats going towards you while fighting a mob will be that much harder and this only helps ganking groups.

Staff on mes saw an increased CD on Phase Retreat, increased CD on Blink, Mirage loses a dodge and as such doubles the CD of sword leap. For Thief, Death's Retreat saw a initiative cost increase, Withdraw saw a CD increase, along with other things and other initiative cost increases that effect all skill use on thief.

So I will ask again, did you read the patch notes for any of the other classes?

Warclaw was already talked about in the balance threads, they agree it is to powerful, and that a dodge will probably end up getting removed, and run speed will be the same across all areas with a possible over all reduction, people were asking for swiftness speed only. If that happens, then you would still be able to out run them. You also should not just be guaranteed escape because you are on soulbeast.

Mirage loses a dodge which is true, but most i see don't use staff, the oneshot builds or condi builds, the Thiefs abilities can still be spammed to run away, the initiative increases only hurt when you actually want to use the mobility while fighting, if you play defensive for a bit you can still shortbow out of there right after, i say this as someone that plays staff Thief and doesn't get the vault nerf because i literally see no other staff thiefs, the rifle nerf only affects DE and i am more worried about shortbow.

I don't play Mesmer so my knowledge on skill names is limmited but as someone that also plays Thief a lot the only nerfs that hurt a lot is vault to 6 and some cd increases like roll, nothing as bad as Swoop almost getting double the CD, heck, make it 15s, but 18 is just way too much on something that is just a dash.

@Anput.4620 said:Reading again, why is Soulbeast Swoop getting almost double the cooldown while other classes mobility cooldowns are barely touched? Warrior has no increased cooldowns on GS mobility while Rangers GS swoop also got nerfed.

What leap has 18s cd?!

Because double swoop is a thing, both of which are on relatively short CDs. Also, Bull's Charge is a leap with a 30s CD, but then it is also a hard CC so it has a higher CD. Rush, the skill you are referring to is 20s CD untraited. So what is happening is Ranger (Soulbeast really) is getting their OP mobility brought more in line with others. Now if only thieves got more of their mobility nerfed...

How is that more in line at all? Rush is 20s because the weapon has 2 mobility skills on 1 weapon. Whirlwind attack has a whopping 10s cd which is the same as old meld Swoop.

Both swoops will now have an 15 and 18s cd respectively which is way longer than any other mobility profession, Thief can still spam SB5, Mesmer got 5 more seconds on Blink, nothing else, so can still teleport 4k range away in 3 seconds.

Thief, Mesmer and Ranger are known as the mobility professions, and only one of them got their mobility CD's gutted, i don't care about all the other changes which other classes got too with the lower damage etc, i do not like the higher CD's though, but just hitting Swoops and no one elses?

Whats double Swoop going to do when you are in combat with a Thief and their 2 ganking buddies on Warclaws charge at you in the distance? We need to drastically reduce Warclaw speed so you can still escape those ganking groups.

Warrior is often full melee class, outside of troll killshot builds, they need mobility to stay with a target. This is a bit OP right now because of warrior sustain and hard CC still hitting like a truck, however after the patch those hard CCs will be doing more or less 0 dmg and sustain will be going down as well. Soulbeast isn't hurting for mobility, they have some of the highest in the game for a class that can kite at 1,800 range, warrior can't do that. Mobility across the board was nerfed, guard GS LoF which is only 600 range, not 1,000 like soulbeast GS, is also seeing a CD increase to 15s.

You might want to read the patch notes about OTHER classes as well. Soulbeast does indeed right now have to much mobility, after the patch with nerfs to hard CC, mobility and kiting are going to be just that much more powerful. And looking at everything else, the nerfs look inline with most others, we will have to wait for live to see how it all plays out in the game.

How are the nerfs inline with Thieves and Mesmers which are the other mobile classes? I don't see any nerfs for them except 5 more seconds on Mes blink.

The problem is that the Warclaw still has the same speed, going OOC when you see 3 poeple on cats going towards you while fighting a mob will be that much harder and this only helps ganking groups.

@Anput.4620 said:Reading again, why is Soulbeast Swoop getting almost double the cooldown while other classes mobility cooldowns are barely touched? Warrior has no increased cooldowns on GS mobility while Rangers GS swoop also got nerfed.

What leap has 18s cd?!

Because double swoop is a thing, both of which are on relatively short CDs. Also, Bull's Charge is a leap with a 30s CD, but then it is also a hard CC so it has a higher CD. Rush, the skill you are referring to is 20s CD untraited. So what is happening is Ranger (Soulbeast really) is getting their OP mobility brought more in line with others. Now if only thieves got more of their mobility nerfed...

How is that more in line at all? Rush is 20s because the weapon has 2 mobility skills on 1 weapon. Whirlwind attack has a whopping 10s cd which is the same as old meld Swoop.

Both swoops will now have an 15 and 18s cd respectively which is way longer than any other mobility profession, Thief can still spam SB5, Mesmer got 5 more seconds on Blink, nothing else, so can still teleport 4k range away in 3 seconds.

Thief, Mesmer and Ranger are known as the mobility professions, and only one of them got their mobility CD's gutted, i don't care about all the other changes which other classes got too with the lower damage etc, i do not like the higher CD's though, but just hitting Swoops and no one elses?

Whats double Swoop going to do when you are in combat with a Thief and their 2 ganking buddies on Warclaws charge at you in the distance? We need to drastically reduce Warclaw speed so you can still escape those ganking groups.

Double swoop is 2400 range. Whirlwind attack+rush is 1650 range. Double swoop is more mobility per CD than WWA+Rush.

Swoop is 2200 range, Warriors still have another weapon set in Dagger for spellbreaker to have a small dash too, Warrior was also never considered a mobility class and has other things, like stupid damage in core.

@Anput.4620 said:Reading again, why is Soulbeast Swoop getting almost double the cooldown while other classes mobility cooldowns are barely touched? Warrior has no increased cooldowns on GS mobility while Rangers GS swoop also got nerfed.

What leap has 18s cd?!

Because double swoop is a thing, both of which are on relatively short CDs. Also, Bull's Charge is a leap with a 30s CD, but then it is also a hard CC so it has a higher CD. Rush, the skill you are referring to is 20s CD untraited. So what is happening is Ranger (Soulbeast really) is getting their OP mobility brought more in line with others. Now if only thieves got more of their mobility nerfed...

How is that more in line at all? Rush is 20s because the weapon has 2 mobility skills on 1 weapon. Whirlwind attack has a whopping 10s cd which is the same as old meld Swoop.

Both swoops will now have an 15 and 18s cd respectively which is way longer than any other mobility profession, Thief can still spam SB5, Mesmer got 5 more seconds on Blink, nothing else, so can still teleport 4k range away in 3 seconds.

Thief, Mesmer and Ranger are known as the mobility professions, and only one of them got their mobility CD's gutted, i don't care about all the other changes which other classes got too with the lower damage etc, i do not like the higher CD's though, but just hitting Swoops and no one elses?

Whats double Swoop going to do when you are in combat with a Thief and their 2 ganking buddies on Warclaws charge at you in the distance? We need to drastically reduce Warclaw speed so you can still escape those ganking groups.

Where are these thieves with unlimited initiative you speak of?

I am saying that they can still spam the same amount so their relative mobility goes up.

The same amount isn't all that much and they're still left with the exact same options after they've blown that initiative. Except after the patch, turning and unloading a burst won't be an option. Shortbow mobility isn't what's wrong with thief.

Soulbeast lasted the longest out of any class with a killer tool kit at their disposal. Cutting their mobility and sustain, especially relative to all the other class changes, on paper, doesn't seem bad imo. Looking at it with blinders on before you can even play it is just unnecessary stress.

Im just imagining ganking groups on cats running me down and i have no mobility to not get chased and corpse jumped on. If Warclaw had swiftness speed i wouldn't mind as much, 18 seconds on just a dash is insane though, 15 would be more fair.

@Anput.4620 said:Reading again, why is Soulbeast Swoop getting almost double the cooldown while other classes mobility cooldowns are barely touched? Warrior has no increased cooldowns on GS mobility while Rangers GS swoop also got nerfed.

What leap has 18s cd?!

because ranger has very good ranged options, has access to stealth, and overall good mobility.while warrior is mostly full melee, has no way to stealth without others and has to be able to stick to their target, because thats the only way to apply pressure.you are comparing oranges with apples

Except core warrior is way more broken atm.

Stealth is also very limited, i don't use either smokescale or longbow.

And what about thieves and mesmers?

@Anput.4620 said:Reading again, why is Soulbeast Swoop getting almost double the cooldown while other classes mobility cooldowns are barely touched? Warrior has no increased cooldowns on GS mobility while Rangers GS swoop also got nerfed.

What leap has 18s cd?!

because ranger has very good ranged options, has access to stealth, and overall good mobility.while warrior is mostly full melee, has no way to stealth without others and has to be able to stick to their target, because thats the only way to apply pressure.you are comparing oranges with apples

Very much this^This post is a good example of why simply comparing one classes skill to ur own and thinking cuz their similar they should follow the same parameters is never a good way to try and argue a nerf or for a buff.

Core war is infinitely better. And what about thieves and mesmers?

In what regard is core war infinitely better than soulbeast? Ranger cant kite warriors so hard and have more or same amount of sustain atm.

Its not my fault you dont play the strong stuff, longbow and smokescale are definately very very viable and just because YOU dont play those doesnt mean your mobility should get buffed, lol.

Use the tools the game gives you. And if you dont use them, dont cry for buffs, seriously. Anet wont buff mobility, just because you dont like your stealth options.Imagine someone dares to like longbow AND smallscale and gets mobility buffs ontop, just because you need that with your special snowflake build. Oof. Nightmares.

I was just answering about warrior, because i know warrior best and i do agree that thief, mesmer and warclaw mobility need to be toned down as they are right now.

You are telling me that right now in the game you can outrun a warclaw? Well there you have your answer, mobility nerf WELL deserved, cant do that on warrior.

Core warriors have way more sustain while being able to use Zerker gear and spike for stupid amounts of damage.

I play Boonbeast with a greatsword axe and warhorn, how is that a bad build by any means? Not everyone plays glass damage builds. I easilly beat most glass rangers with this build as this build excells against glass builds, but any build that also has simillar sustain but way more damage, like core warrior, just wrecks it, all i can do is be on the defensive, kite, and not die as i don't get a chance to do enough damage.

So u play soulbeast who has a way more effective and versatile ranged weapon with lb than any other class and for sure warrior and ur complaining that ur melee builds are also not superior to the class who SHOULD be the king of melee (warrior) as rangers are king of range. Cmon man u serious? I donno if I'd even put warrior ahead in melee compared to ranger though it definitely should be. With that said soulbeast as a whole has great mobility and the fact u chose to play a build that runs with less mobility than comparing it to classes running higher mobility builds is funny. If a warrior isnt running gs or bullscharge what crazy mobility does it have? Yeah.

How am i running less mobility? My build still has double swoop.

I "literally" never said that longbow is the only valid build for ranger. I said that you cant just have everything in one build, jesus, and thats what you exactly want, you want insane mobility, you want stealth and big damages.

You have to make decisions, take one and leave something else, its not hard to understand that concept.You already said, you destroy other builds with your boonbeast, so why do you think it should destroy EVERY build out there?

Where did i ever say i want stealth and big damages? I was fine with the sustain, boons and mobility, never asked for the other 2.

It doesn't destroy every build out there, it folds to heavy condi builds or bruiser builds like core warrior, where i can only force a stalemate in the latter.

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@Kovu.7560 said:@RedShark.9548 I started typing a post and then realized I was literally rehashing the same stuff I said three posts ago.We're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

The patch will hit, we'll see how things play out with the nerfs.

~ Kovu

edit- @"Anput.4620" You're right, nobody should have to deal with "warclaw BS", but that speaks more to the necessity of a nerf to warclaw than it does to not nerfing the mobility on high-mobility professions.

Sure, lets do that.And i totally agree, warclaw was a bad idea and should be removed from the mode or get reduced to normal walking speed with swiftness, and get dismounted on any dmg done to it

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@Anput.4620 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:So if ur running double swoop then ur mobility is more than sufficient with ur effective range.

At the moment, but with 18s CD it will be bad, i already have trouble catching Thieves with their shadowsteps, after this Warrior will easilly outmobility Ranger and Ranger won't even want to try to keep up with Thieves, also range totally depends on the build, my highest range comes from my throwing axe in the build i play.

It won't be bad with an 18 second cooldown on Bird Swoop, and with you still being able to get a 12 second CD on GS Swoop when traited, which is still an evade, your mobility will be
just fine
. If you're running Boonbeast there was more that needed to be done to bring it in line and not have it be the overtuned nonsense that it was. Which it did see. Moa Stance nerfed, boon durations nerfed, CD increases on your Stability, Bambi saw nerfs to damage, reduction to Concentration from your taits, etc. Boonbeast was literally one of
the
examples as to why Boons have been a prime contributor to the power creep in the game.

I assume you're running some variant of the Boonbeast build, or just rather the standard axe-axe/sword-warhorn and yes you have more limited range compared to Longbow, but it isn't like Boonbeast lacks in sustain, even with boon rip, the frequency in which Soulbeast can reapply boons has been
excessive
and their ability to hard disengage as much as they have been, either with double swoop or just the one swoop, easily allows them to buy more than enough time for cooldowns to reset. Their Might gen, constant Protection and Regeneration on top of the large stacks of Stability that last for well over 30 seconds. Moa Stance, pop Dolyak Stance, pop Strength of the Pack, and merge with pet (to then gain all of the boons you
just
gave it) you can very easily achieve around 45 seconds of Stability and it is a
large
stack of it. That is all with Mara/Zerk gear or just full Mara gear with Dura runes. Not even building Concentration, in fact the 240 Concentration you
do
get from Lingering Magic gives you another 16% Boon Duration, thats why they cut that down.

With the build you say you run, at least what I can somewhat assume it is, your swoop right now has a 10 second cooldown. That is
short
and by no means do you need it every
10 seconds
if you're properly managing cooldowns. You still have evades off of your mainhand sword skills, some of which are also mobility, on top of the egregious amount of boons you're able to apply to yourself. Unless said Core Warrior you're fighting is somehow running more boon rip than a Spellbreaker...that isn't exactly a scenario that is very easy for the Core Warrior as the only boon rip they can possible get is from sigils, which either have cooldowns or are completely contingent upon a CC skill actually causing an interrupt and not just hitting.

The most this update will do is cause you to be smarter about when you use your merge swoop as opposed to just pressing it every 10 seconds purely because you can.

@Kovu.7560 I wouldn't dispute that Core Warrior is strong, however thats a moot point considering pretty much
everything
right now is overtuned which was why such a wide sweeping patch like this needs to happen. Warrior in general did need to get touched on, but not nearly as much as other classes and truthfully the things they needed to hit on Warrior in general they did hit. Might generation, sustain off of that insane Might generation, the passives being a massive crutch mechanic that were very widely used, Bull's Charge getting its damage reduced because it was still able to nuke people, Rampage skills seeing damage reductions, and Reckless Dodge getting its damage reduced as well. Most of the problems got hit. The only lingering one I'd say is Adrenal Health and similar Burst related traits still proccing even if Full Counter doesn't actually hit, which is a contrary function compared to other burst skills (Longbow burst being the only exception) where if Eviscerate or Arcing Slice either miss or are otherwise negated (dodged, blinded, invuln'd, blocked) they do not proc those traits.

Like i said, i am not complaining about anything else, just the swoop CD, if it was 15s i wouldn't even have complained, 18 is just outrageous.

Also, core warrior does way more damage to me while i can't scratch them, i can force a stalemate yes, but mainly by swooping around.

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:So if ur running double swoop then ur mobility is more than sufficient with ur effective range.

At the moment, but with 18s CD it will be bad, i already have trouble catching Thieves with their shadowsteps, after this Warrior will easilly outmobility Ranger and Ranger won't even want to try to keep up with Thieves, also range totally depends on the build, my highest range comes from my throwing axe in the build i play.

I get that it sucks ur losing a bit of mobility but with rangers ability to hit a target for decent damage at 1200+ range should u really have been able to catch a thief or warrior using mobility skills in the first place?

Why do you assume everyone runs glassbow? Why shouldn't a ranger have mobility?

@Voltekka.2375 said:It is almost as if like certain people jump from a nerfed broken build to the next broken build, and QQ when said broken build will get rightly nerfed, cause they get classcarried. Almost.

I have mained ranger for a long time now, boonbeast specifically.

@Anput.4620 said:I also mainly care about my mobility relative to a Warclaw as that is important to not get ganked, 15s cd on swoop would be fine if Warclaw didn't exist.For what its worth I'm pretty sure the warclaw movement is being reduced to not-in-your-territory movement and (possibly?) the dodges will be affected as well. I can't find an Anet post on the matter, but folks around the forum seem to indicate that's a thing that's been discussed. Longbow on ranger is still one of the better tools for dealing with mounted players and the brief knockdown off their pet often allows an extra free shot or two. Plus if they're running away they're probably starting the fight some distance from you so you can pew pew to your heart's content. If they're a thief, mesmer or a bunker build they may still escape, but
everyone
has to deal with this fact.

It is true some of the other professions escaped minor mobility nerfs but rangers are still arguably in the best position to deal with mounted runners. So there's that at least.

~ Kovu

@Anput.4620 said:I also mainly care about my mobility relative to a Warclaw as that is important to not get ganked, 15s cd on swoop would be fine if Warclaw didn't exist.For what its worth I'm pretty sure the warclaw movement is being reduced to not-in-your-territory movement and (possibly?) the dodges will be affected as well. I can't find an Anet post on the matter, but folks around the forum seem to indicate that's a thing that's been discussed. Longbow on ranger is still one of the better tools for dealing with mounted players and the brief knockdown off their pet often allows an extra free shot or two. Plus if they're running away they're probably starting the fight some distance from you so you can pew pew to your heart's content. If they're a thief, mesmer or a bunker build they may still escape, but
everyone
has to deal with this fact.

It is true some of the other professions escaped minor mobility nerfs but rangers are still arguably in the best position to deal with mounted runners. So there's that at least.

~ Kovu

Movement speed normalization everywhere will just make it so you can't chase someone/escape someone ever anymore depending on what range you spot them.

I don't play Longbow but boonbeast. You are telling me that everyone has to deal with this warclaw BS, but no one should have to, make the darn thing swiftness speed.

You used to main permastealth deadeye prenerf, and jumped to boonbeast after.

I mained Spellbreaker and Thief was my alt, after that i swapped to Boonbeast when that became a thing as it was the most fun thing ever.

@RedShark.9548 said:You have like 3 or 4 ppl talking against you and
nobody really arguing for you
Oh, we're here. We're just tired of rehashing the same arguments over and over again year-in-and-year-out. In the end, 8-out-of-9 players approve of ranger nerfs.

As a ranger main, warrior is basically my kryptonite, but as it seems like warrior, ranger and elementalist saw the biggest nerfs and I'm not actually all that bummed about cooldown increases to the swoops. Those cooldowns are still fairly short, it is what it is. Honestly, its the continued nerfs to druid healing, core ranger, as well as weapons and utilities never seen in this gamemode that gets me.

Like, if Druid healing is overpowered in pve, nerf it in pve -- not here. ¯\
(ツ)

~ Kovu

In what world is warrior your kryptonite???Im serious, are we playing the same effing game? Sure you might not play a optimal build to fight warriors, but there sure as kitten are ranger builds that stomp warrior and laugh at him while doing it, in no world in warrior the counter to ranger kitten.

Yea, here we are again, multiple ppl trying to tell him why ranger has certain advantages over warrior, that justify longer cds on swoop, because they simply exist, no questions asked.

He has literally no argument, always just repeats "what about mesmer or thief" or "core war wrecks my build" no real explanation given and no understanding of the fact that other builds can wreck that core warrior.

Warrior mobility is only somewhat weaker than ranger's and generally good enough to catch rangers that initially commit to a fight, they have several tools to slow down rangers trying to run away via cripple, their damage in melee pre-patch dwarfs anything a ranger can put, much of that damage (pre-patch) coming attached to stuns, they have enough uptime on projectile reflection to counter ranged spam until they close the gap, arguably more damage mitigation, a larger health pool, higher base armor/defense, better stun break access and prevention, passive and active regeneration, the ability to be immune to critical hits (which they can cycle into their other immunities for nice power-damage mitigation for a longer duration) and some of the larger damage coefficients in the game (whereas rangers have lower coefficients due to their pets supposedly significantly contributing to the fight).

I'm not saying warriors are universally better at everything, but there are certainly things they
are
better at.

~ Kovu

You said warrior is the kryptonite to ranger which highly indicates a hard counter, which warrior just isnt.

A hardcounter to warrior would be like dragon hunter vs warrior, which definately isnt the case in a warrior vs ranger.

My
kryptonite, as in me personally for the build
I
run. If I rolled condi I'd probably have better odds, or I could tank up on boonbeast and force a stalemate.

~ Kovu

Eveb if you rolled a propet longbiw build youd probably have much better odds

The main comparison of this thread seems to be how the OP's concerns with regard to mobility are invalid because they're "comparing apples to oranges", and while that may or may not be true everyone is busy talking about the strengths of the apple (ranger) and not of that of the orange (warrior). I thought I'd pipe in and talk about the orange for a little bit.But sure, disregard everything I mentioned in a previous post about how warriors can literally tank and regen power damage for days and reflect projectiles and assume pewpew to be a suitable counter. If you want to think that rangers are somehow omnipotent, I honestly can't stop you.

You guys can continue discussing the whole swoop nerf with Anput, I couldn't be kitten about that particular change.

~ Kovu

Since you believe that warrior is an omnipotent god, let me my religion that ranger is one. Sounds just as kitten as it is.

In what world can warrior tank power dmg for days? They have pretty much no source of protection (which ranger btw has)The reflect has to be traited and then still has traited 20sec cd its on 1 weapon, wowi, ranger gs even has a knockdown tied to their block.They have barely any source for regeneration (the boon).The biggest sustain comes from traits that are tied to hitting their burst skills, dodge those and they wont have that.

And dont get me started on endure pain, ranger has stone sig, just saying.

And yes, longbow ranger hits hard enough to pressure a warrior, especially if they use unblockables. Not that hard to slot such thing in. Also helps vs guards btw.Warrior is in no world a counter to ranger, thats just kitten.

@RedShark.9548 said:You have like 3 or 4 ppl talking against you and
nobody really arguing for you
Oh, we're here. We're just tired of rehashing the same arguments over and over again year-in-and-year-out. In the end, 8-out-of-9 players approve of ranger nerfs.

As a ranger main, warrior is basically my kryptonite, but as it seems like warrior, ranger and elementalist saw the biggest nerfs and I'm not actually all that bummed about cooldown increases to the swoops. Those cooldowns are still fairly short, it is what it is. Honestly, its the continued nerfs to druid healing, core ranger, as well as weapons and utilities never seen in this gamemode that gets me.

Like, if Druid healing is overpowered in pve, nerf it in pve -- not here. ¯\
(ツ)

~ Kovu

In what world is warrior your kryptonite???Im serious, are we playing the same effing game? Sure you might not play a optimal build to fight warriors, but there sure as kitten are ranger builds that stomp warrior and laugh at him while doing it, in no world in warrior the counter to ranger kitten.

Yea, here we are again, multiple ppl trying to tell him why ranger has certain advantages over warrior, that justify longer cds on swoop, because they simply exist, no questions asked.

He has literally no argument, always just repeats "what about mesmer or thief" or "core war wrecks my build" no real explanation given and no understanding of the fact that other builds can wreck that core warrior.

Warrior mobility is only somewhat weaker than ranger's and generally good enough to catch rangers that initially commit to a fight, they have several tools to slow down rangers trying to run away via cripple, their damage in melee pre-patch dwarfs anything a ranger can put, much of that damage (pre-patch) coming attached to stuns, they have enough uptime on projectile reflection to counter ranged spam until they close the gap, arguably more damage mitigation, a larger health pool, higher base armor/defense, better stun break access and prevention, passive and active regeneration, the ability to be immune to critical hits (which they can cycle into their other immunities for nice power-damage mitigation for a longer duration) and some of the larger damage coefficients in the game (whereas rangers have lower coefficients due to their pets supposedly significantly contributing to the fight).

I'm not saying warriors are universally better at everything, but there are certainly things they
are
better at.

~ Kovu

You said warrior is the kryptonite to ranger which highly indicates a hard counter, which warrior just isnt.

A hardcounter to warrior would be like dragon hunter vs warrior, which definately isnt the case in a warrior vs ranger.

My
kryptonite, as in me personally for the build
I
run. If I rolled condi I'd probably have better odds, or I could tank up on boonbeast and force a stalemate.

~ Kovu

Eveb if you rolled a propet longbiw build youd probably have much better odds

@RedShark.9548 said:You have like 3 or 4 ppl talking against you and
nobody really arguing for you
Oh, we're here. We're just tired of rehashing the same arguments over and over again year-in-and-year-out. In the end, 8-out-of-9 players approve of ranger nerfs.

As a ranger main, warrior is basically my kryptonite, but as it seems like warrior, ranger and elementalist saw the biggest nerfs and I'm not actually all that bummed about cooldown increases to the swoops. Those cooldowns are still fairly short, it is what it is. Honestly, its the continued nerfs to druid healing, core ranger, as well as weapons and utilities never seen in this gamemode that gets me.

Like, if Druid healing is overpowered in pve, nerf it in pve -- not here. ¯\
(ツ)

~ Kovu

In what world is warrior your kryptonite???Im serious, are we playing the same effing game? Sure you might not play a optimal build to fight warriors, but there sure as kitten are ranger builds that stomp warrior and laugh at him while doing it, in no world in warrior the counter to ranger kitten.

Yea, here we are again, multiple ppl trying to tell him why ranger has certain advantages over warrior, that justify longer cds on swoop, because they simply exist, no questions asked.

He has literally no argument, always just repeats "what about mesmer or thief" or "core war wrecks my build" no real explanation given and no understanding of the fact that other builds can wreck that core warrior.

Warrior mobility is only somewhat weaker than ranger's and generally good enough to catch rangers that initially commit to a fight, they have several tools to slow down rangers trying to run away via cripple, their damage in melee pre-patch dwarfs anything a ranger can put, much of that damage (pre-patch) coming attached to stuns, they have enough uptime on projectile reflection to counter ranged spam until they close the gap, arguably more damage mitigation, a larger health pool, higher base armor/defense, better stun break access and prevention, passive and active regeneration, the ability to be immune to critical hits (which they can cycle into their other immunities for nice power-damage mitigation for a longer duration) and some of the larger damage coefficients in the game (whereas rangers have lower coefficients due to their pets supposedly significantly contributing to the fight).

I'm not saying warriors are universally better at everything, but there are certainly things they
are
better at.

~ Kovu

You said warrior is the kryptonite to ranger which highly indicates a hard counter, which warrior just isnt.

A hardcounter to warrior would be like dragon hunter vs warrior, which definately isnt the case in a warrior vs ranger.

My
kryptonite, as in me personally for the build
I
run. If I rolled condi I'd probably have better odds, or I could tank up on boonbeast and force a stalemate.

~ Kovu

Eveb if you rolled a propet longbiw build youd probably have much better odds

@RedShark.9548 said:You have like 3 or 4 ppl talking against you and
nobody really arguing for you
Oh, we're here. We're just tired of rehashing the same arguments over and over again year-in-and-year-out. In the end, 8-out-of-9 players approve of ranger nerfs.

As a ranger main, warrior is basically my kryptonite, but as it seems like warrior, ranger and elementalist saw the biggest nerfs and I'm not actually all that bummed about cooldown increases to the swoops. Those cooldowns are still fairly short, it is what it is. Honestly, its the continued nerfs to druid healing, core ranger, as well as weapons and utilities never seen in this gamemode that gets me.

Like, if Druid healing is overpowered in pve, nerf it in pve -- not here. ¯\
(ツ)

~ Kovu

In what world is warrior your kryptonite???Im serious, are we playing the same effing game? Sure you might not play a optimal build to fight warriors, but there sure as kitten are ranger builds that stomp warrior and laugh at him while doing it, in no world in warrior the counter to ranger kitten.

Yea, here we are again, multiple ppl trying to tell him why ranger has certain advantages over warrior, that justify longer cds on swoop, because they simply exist, no questions asked.

He has literally no argument, always just repeats "what about mesmer or thief" or "core war wrecks my build" no real explanation given and no understanding of the fact that other builds can wreck that core warrior.

Warrior mobility is only somewhat weaker than ranger's and generally good enough to catch rangers that initially commit to a fight, they have several tools to slow down rangers trying to run away via cripple, their damage in melee pre-patch dwarfs anything a ranger can put, much of that damage (pre-patch) coming attached to stuns, they have enough uptime on projectile reflection to counter ranged spam until they close the gap, arguably more damage mitigation, a larger health pool, higher base armor/defense, better stun break access and prevention, passive and active regeneration, the ability to be immune to critical hits (which they can cycle into their other immunities for nice power-damage mitigation for a longer duration) and some of the larger damage coefficients in the game (whereas rangers have lower coefficients due to their pets supposedly significantly contributing to the fight).

I'm not saying warriors are universally better at everything, but there are certainly things they
are
better at.

~ Kovu

You said warrior is the kryptonite to ranger which highly indicates a hard counter, which warrior just isnt.

A hardcounter to warrior would be like dragon hunter vs warrior, which definately isnt the case in a warrior vs ranger.

My
kryptonite, as in me personally for the build
I
run. If I rolled condi I'd probably have better odds, or I could tank up on boonbeast and force a stalemate.

~ Kovu

Eveb if you rolled a propet longbiw build youd probably have much better odds

Why is LB literally the only valid build to you lol.

I also mainly care about my mobility relative to a Warclaw as that is important to not get ganked, 15s cd on swoop would be fine if Warclaw didn't exist.

@Anput.4620 said:Reading again, why is Soulbeast Swoop getting almost double the cooldown while other classes mobility cooldowns are barely touched? Warrior has no increased cooldowns on GS mobility while Rangers GS swoop also got nerfed.

What leap has 18s cd?!

Because double swoop is a thing, both of which are on relatively short CDs. Also, Bull's Charge is a leap with a 30s CD, but then it is also a hard CC so it has a higher CD. Rush, the skill you are referring to is 20s CD untraited. So what is happening is Ranger (Soulbeast really) is getting their OP mobility brought more in line with others. Now if only thieves got more of their mobility nerfed...

How is that more in line at all? Rush is 20s because the weapon has 2 mobility skills on 1 weapon. Whirlwind attack has a whopping 10s cd which is the same as old meld Swoop.

Both swoops will now have an 15 and 18s cd respectively which is way longer than any other mobility profession, Thief can still spam SB5, Mesmer got 5 more seconds on Blink, nothing else, so can still teleport 4k range away in 3 seconds.

Thief, Mesmer and Ranger are known as the mobility professions, and only one of them got their mobility CD's gutted, i don't care about all the other changes which other classes got too with the lower damage etc, i do not like the higher CD's though, but just hitting Swoops and no one elses?

Whats double Swoop going to do when you are in combat with a Thief and their 2 ganking buddies on Warclaws charge at you in the distance? We need to drastically reduce Warclaw speed so you can still escape those ganking groups.

Warrior is often full melee class, outside of troll killshot builds, they need mobility to stay with a target. This is a bit OP right now because of warrior sustain and hard CC still hitting like a truck, however after the patch those hard CCs will be doing more or less 0 dmg and sustain will be going down as well. Soulbeast isn't hurting for mobility, they have some of the highest in the game for a class that can kite at 1,800 range, warrior can't do that. Mobility across the board was nerfed, guard GS LoF which is only 600 range, not 1,000 like soulbeast GS, is also seeing a CD increase to 15s.

You might want to read the patch notes about OTHER classes as well. Soulbeast does indeed right now have to much mobility, after the patch with nerfs to hard CC, mobility and kiting are going to be just that much more powerful. And looking at everything else, the nerfs look inline with most others, we will have to wait for live to see how it all plays out in the game.

How are the nerfs inline with Thieves and Mesmers which are the other mobile classes? I don't see any nerfs for them except 5 more seconds on Mes blink.

The problem is that the Warclaw still has the same speed, going OOC when you see 3 poeple on cats going towards you while fighting a mob will be that much harder and this only helps ganking groups.

Staff on mes saw an increased CD on Phase Retreat, increased CD on Blink, Mirage loses a dodge and as such doubles the CD of sword leap. For Thief, Death's Retreat saw a initiative cost increase, Withdraw saw a CD increase, along with other things and other initiative cost increases that effect all skill use on thief.

So I will ask again, did you read the patch notes for any of the other classes?

Warclaw was already talked about in the balance threads, they agree it is to powerful, and that a dodge will probably end up getting removed, and run speed will be the same across all areas with a possible over all reduction, people were asking for swiftness speed only. If that happens, then you would still be able to out run them. You also should not just be guaranteed escape because you are on soulbeast.

Mirage loses a dodge which is true, but most i see don't use staff, the oneshot builds or condi builds, the Thiefs abilities can still be spammed to run away, the initiative increases only hurt when you actually want to use the mobility while fighting, if you play defensive for a bit you can still shortbow out of there right after, i say this as someone that plays staff Thief and doesn't get the vault nerf because i literally see no other staff thiefs, the rifle nerf only affects DE and i am more worried about shortbow.

I don't play Mesmer so my knowledge on skill names is limmited but as someone that also plays Thief a lot the only nerfs that hurt a lot is vault to 6 and some cd increases like roll, nothing as bad as Swoop almost getting double the CD, heck, make it 15s, but 18 is just way too much on something that is just a dash.

@Anput.4620 said:Reading again, why is Soulbeast Swoop getting almost double the cooldown while other classes mobility cooldowns are barely touched? Warrior has no increased cooldowns on GS mobility while Rangers GS swoop also got nerfed.

What leap has 18s cd?!

Because double swoop is a thing, both of which are on relatively short CDs. Also, Bull's Charge is a leap with a 30s CD, but then it is also a hard CC so it has a higher CD. Rush, the skill you are referring to is 20s CD untraited. So what is happening is Ranger (Soulbeast really) is getting their OP mobility brought more in line with others. Now if only thieves got more of their mobility nerfed...

How is that more in line at all? Rush is 20s because the weapon has 2 mobility skills on 1 weapon. Whirlwind attack has a whopping 10s cd which is the same as old meld Swoop.

Both swoops will now have an 15 and 18s cd respectively which is way longer than any other mobility profession, Thief can still spam SB5, Mesmer got 5 more seconds on Blink, nothing else, so can still teleport 4k range away in 3 seconds.

Thief, Mesmer and Ranger are known as the mobility professions, and only one of them got their mobility CD's gutted, i don't care about all the other changes which other classes got too with the lower damage etc, i do not like the higher CD's though, but just hitting Swoops and no one elses?

Whats double Swoop going to do when you are in combat with a Thief and their 2 ganking buddies on Warclaws charge at you in the distance? We need to drastically reduce Warclaw speed so you can still escape those ganking groups.

Warrior is often full melee class, outside of troll killshot builds, they need mobility to stay with a target. This is a bit OP right now because of warrior sustain and hard CC still hitting like a truck, however after the patch those hard CCs will be doing more or less 0 dmg and sustain will be going down as well. Soulbeast isn't hurting for mobility, they have some of the highest in the game for a class that can kite at 1,800 range, warrior can't do that. Mobility across the board was nerfed, guard GS LoF which is only 600 range, not 1,000 like soulbeast GS, is also seeing a CD increase to 15s.

You might want to read the patch notes about OTHER classes as well. Soulbeast does indeed right now have to much mobility, after the patch with nerfs to hard CC, mobility and kiting are going to be just that much more powerful. And looking at everything else, the nerfs look inline with most others, we will have to wait for live to see how it all plays out in the game.

How are the nerfs inline with Thieves and Mesmers which are the other mobile classes? I don't see any nerfs for them except 5 more seconds on Mes blink.

The problem is that the Warclaw still has the same speed, going OOC when you see 3 poeple on cats going towards you while fighting a mob will be that much harder and this only helps ganking groups.

@Anput.4620 said:Reading again, why is Soulbeast Swoop getting almost double the cooldown while other classes mobility cooldowns are barely touched? Warrior has no increased cooldowns on GS mobility while Rangers GS swoop also got nerfed.

What leap has 18s cd?!

Because double swoop is a thing, both of which are on relatively short CDs. Also, Bull's Charge is a leap with a 30s CD, but then it is also a hard CC so it has a higher CD. Rush, the skill you are referring to is 20s CD untraited. So what is happening is Ranger (Soulbeast really) is getting their OP mobility brought more in line with others. Now if only thieves got more of their mobility nerfed...

How is that more in line at all? Rush is 20s because the weapon has 2 mobility skills on 1 weapon. Whirlwind attack has a whopping 10s cd which is the same as old meld Swoop.

Both swoops will now have an 15 and 18s cd respectively which is way longer than any other mobility profession, Thief can still spam SB5, Mesmer got 5 more seconds on Blink, nothing else, so can still teleport 4k range away in 3 seconds.

Thief, Mesmer and Ranger are known as the mobility professions, and only one of them got their mobility CD's gutted, i don't care about all the other changes which other classes got too with the lower damage etc, i do not like the higher CD's though, but just hitting Swoops and no one elses?

Whats double Swoop going to do when you are in combat with a Thief and their 2 ganking buddies on Warclaws charge at you in the distance? We need to drastically reduce Warclaw speed so you can still escape those ganking groups.

Double swoop is 2400 range. Whirlwind attack+rush is 1650 range. Double swoop is more mobility per CD than WWA+Rush.

Swoop is 2200 range, Warriors still have another weapon set in Dagger for spellbreaker to have a small dash too, Warrior was also never considered a mobility class and has other things, like stupid damage in core.

@Anput.4620 said:Reading again, why is Soulbeast Swoop getting almost double the cooldown while other classes mobility cooldowns are barely touched? Warrior has no increased cooldowns on GS mobility while Rangers GS swoop also got nerfed.

What leap has 18s cd?!

Because double swoop is a thing, both of which are on relatively short CDs. Also, Bull's Charge is a leap with a 30s CD, but then it is also a hard CC so it has a higher CD. Rush, the skill you are referring to is 20s CD untraited. So what is happening is Ranger (Soulbeast really) is getting their OP mobility brought more in line with others. Now if only thieves got more of their mobility nerfed...

How is that more in line at all? Rush is 20s because the weapon has 2 mobility skills on 1 weapon. Whirlwind attack has a whopping 10s cd which is the same as old meld Swoop.

Both swoops will now have an 15 and 18s cd respectively which is way longer than any other mobility profession, Thief can still spam SB5, Mesmer got 5 more seconds on Blink, nothing else, so can still teleport 4k range away in 3 seconds.

Thief, Mesmer and Ranger are known as the mobility professions, and only one of them got their mobility CD's gutted, i don't care about all the other changes which other classes got too with the lower damage etc, i do not like the higher CD's though, but just hitting Swoops and no one elses?

Whats double Swoop going to do when you are in combat with a Thief and their 2 ganking buddies on Warclaws charge at you in the distance? We need to drastically reduce Warclaw speed so you can still escape those ganking groups.

Where are these thieves with unlimited initiative you speak of?

I am saying that they can still spam the same amount so their relative mobility goes up.

The same amount isn't all that much and they're still left with the exact same options after they've blown that initiative. Except after the patch, turning and unloading a burst won't be an option. Shortbow mobility isn't what's wrong with thief.

Soulbeast lasted the longest out of any class with a killer tool kit at their disposal. Cutting their mobility and sustain, especially relative to all the other class changes, on paper, doesn't seem bad imo. Looking at it with blinders on before you can even play it is just unnecessary stress.

Im just imagining ganking groups on cats running me down and i have no mobility to not get chased and corpse jumped on. If Warclaw had swiftness speed i wouldn't mind as much, 18 seconds on just a dash is insane though, 15 would be more fair.

@Anput.4620 said:Reading again, why is Soulbeast Swoop getting almost double the cooldown while other classes mobility cooldowns are barely touched? Warrior has no increased cooldowns on GS mobility while Rangers GS swoop also got nerfed.

What leap has 18s cd?!

because ranger has very good ranged options, has access to stealth, and overall good mobility.while warrior is mostly full melee, has no way to stealth without others and has to be able to stick to their target, because thats the only way to apply pressure.you are comparing oranges with apples

Except core warrior is way more broken atm.

Stealth is also very limited, i don't use either smokescale or longbow.

And what about thieves and mesmers?

@Anput.4620 said:Reading again, why is Soulbeast Swoop getting almost double the cooldown while other classes mobility cooldowns are barely touched? Warrior has no increased cooldowns on GS mobility while Rangers GS swoop also got nerfed.

What leap has 18s cd?!

because ranger has very good ranged options, has access to stealth, and overall good mobility.while warrior is mostly full melee, has no way to stealth without others and has to be able to stick to their target, because thats the only way to apply pressure.you are comparing oranges with apples

Very much this^This post is a good example of why simply comparing one classes skill to ur own and thinking cuz their similar they should follow the same parameters is never a good way to try and argue a nerf or for a buff.

Core war is infinitely better. And what about thieves and mesmers?

In what regard is core war infinitely better than soulbeast? Ranger cant kite warriors so hard and have more or same amount of sustain atm.

Its not my fault you dont play the strong stuff, longbow and smokescale are definately very very viable and just because YOU dont play those doesnt mean your mobility should get buffed, lol.

Use the tools the game gives you. And if you dont use them, dont cry for buffs, seriously. Anet wont buff mobility, just because you dont like your stealth options.Imagine someone dares to like longbow AND smallscale and gets mobility buffs ontop, just because you need that with your special snowflake build. Oof. Nightmares.

I was just answering about warrior, because i know warrior best and i do agree that thief, mesmer and warclaw mobility need to be toned down as they are right now.

You are telling me that right now in the game you can outrun a warclaw? Well there you have your answer, mobility nerf WELL deserved, cant do that on warrior.

Core warriors have way more sustain while being able to use Zerker gear and spike for stupid amounts of damage.

I play Boonbeast with a greatsword axe and warhorn, how is that a bad build by any means? Not everyone plays glass damage builds. I easilly beat most glass rangers with this build as this build excells against glass builds, but any build that also has simillar sustain but way more damage, like core warrior, just wrecks it, all i can do is be on the defensive, kite, and not die as i don't get a chance to do enough damage.

So u play soulbeast who has a way more effective and versatile ranged weapon with lb than any other class and for sure warrior and ur complaining that ur melee builds are also not superior to the class who SHOULD be the king of melee (warrior) as rangers are king of range. Cmon man u serious? I donno if I'd even put warrior ahead in melee compared to ranger though it definitely should be. With that said soulbeast as a whole has great mobility and the fact u chose to play a build that runs with less mobility than comparing it to classes running higher mobility builds is funny. If a warrior isnt running gs or bullscharge what crazy mobility does it have? Yeah.

How am i running less mobility? My build still has double swoop.

I "literally" never said that longbow is the only valid build for ranger. I said that you cant just have everything in one build, jesus, and thats what you exactly want, you want insane mobility, you want stealth and big damages.

You have to make decisions, take one and leave something else, its not hard to understand that concept.You already said, you destroy other builds with your boonbeast, so why do you think it should destroy EVERY build out there?

Where did i ever say i want stealth and big damages? I was fine with the sustain, boons and mobility, never asked for the other 2.

It doesn't destroy every build out there, it folds to heavy condi builds or bruiser builds like core warrior, where i can only force a stalemate in the latter.

Do you know what most Core Warriors have to do to even stalemate a Boonbeast? Hit all their bursts to maintain Adrenal Health. So that tells me that you're essentially letting them smack you with some of their most telegraphed attacks and you're still not dying all while enabling them to sustain pretty heavily.

Lets also remember that Warrior damage did take a hit with this patch just like every other class so if your concern is that they will do "too much" damage to what will be a nerfed Boonbeast...you're still going to have your Protection, you're still going to have your evades, you're still going to have your Regen, you're still going to have Swoop...its just now merge Swoop will be on an 18 second cooldown and your boons won't be able to get their durations padded as hard by Moa Stance. That nerf to 20% on Moa Stance turns around 45 seconds of about 25 stacks of Stability into about 30 seconds of Stability with that build I outlined earlier. Still quite a lot...but definitely needed to happen and that was all paired with the mobility. Worst case scenario...use your evades better.

It needed to happen...I know you might not like it, I know there is some part of you that is extremely worried now that somehow an 18 second cooldown merge Swoop is going to be the difference between a win and a loss for you and well...good. Every other class got hit in similar ways, it just so happened that the insane mobility and very low cooldown on Soulbeast took a hit. Don't worry, no one is going to be running around with Defense passives anymore if thats a concern as well. A lot of Warriors were pretty carried by those passives and the excessive Might generation, just as Boonbeasts have been pretty carried by their boon uptime and mobility, just as Weaver got pretty carried by Twist of Fate and Obsidian Flesh still allowing them to use skills even while invuln, and so on and so forth with a bunch of other classes.

Again...all needed to happen. You'll be fine if you adapt which I suspect many, many people won't and that will lead to quite a bit of salt flooding these forums, even more than right now.

Oh and also...build were bound to change or get broken or whatever else in any balance shake up ANet did if it was going to be worth anything. If that is the case here...good. Needs it. No one should have expected the builds they have been using for a long time now to just go unchanged, that is not how something like this should work. If you need to alter your Soulbeast build significantly after this patch, and really if most classes need to, then honestly I think the patch will have done its job. Aka establish something different.

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The one good thing about passives with Warrior is that they allowed non-meta builds to "work". You were not forced to take shield, you could take warhorn. You were not forced to take GS, you could take dual axe. You could also take other trait-line's like Arms or Tactics. Were they better choices than the standard meta?, of course not, but at least they were somewhat playable, especially if the player could accept a lesser degree of effectiveness. I feel like this patch will change some of that choice.

If anything there will be a surge of the same cookie-cutter GS/X-SH Warriors, and a resurgence of Trailblazer builds to offset the lack of healing/passives. (frustrated players will grab the latter)

You will not be able to make up for the lack of a Shield, or the mobility and evades of Greatsword as easily post patch.

That is my one criticism of bringing everything down, as you only reinforce the same top end.

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@sneakytails.5629 said:Another thing that passives allowed on Warrior was more space on the utility bar for other skills like Signet of Might, or Frenzy instead of Endure Pain and Balanced Stance. This was very beneficial for off-meta builds.

Funny thing is that all my off meta builds dont use endure pain, most of them wont even run defense traitline.

I think thats a good thing, maybe some ppl get their eyes opened and have to think out of their little full bersi bubble and have to come up with new builds.

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@RedShark.9548 said:

@sneakytails.5629 said:Another thing that passives allowed on Warrior was more space on the utility bar for other skills like Signet of Might, or Frenzy instead of Endure Pain and Balanced Stance. This was very beneficial for off-meta builds.

Funny thing is that all my off meta builds dont use endure pain, most of them wont even run defense traitline.

I think thats a good thing, maybe some ppl get their eyes opened and have to think out of their little full bersi bubble and have to come up with new builds.

I've said before that Defense was a set of crutches, but if it was needed that people should take it. Now? /meh. I'd take for a CC lockdown build, or traiting for reflects, but those would be for niche situations. I think Tactics is the new sustain line. Even with the MMR and MM healing reductions the new Signet of Rage is going to be a spike heal with teammates around. I'm interesting in seeing what the design team does with the gutted 300s CD traits though. I have some high hopes for that.

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@KryTiKaL.3125 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:So if ur running double swoop then ur mobility is more than sufficient with ur effective range.

With the build you say you run, at least what I can somewhat assume it is, your swoop right now has a 10 second cooldown. That is
short
and by no means do you need it every
10 seconds
if you're properly managing cooldowns. You still have evades off of your mainhand sword skills, some of which are also mobility, on top of the egregious amount of boons you're able to apply to yourself. Unless said Core Warrior you're fighting is somehow running more boon rip than a Spellbreaker...that isn't exactly a scenario that is very easy for the Core Warrior as the only boon rip they can possible get is from sigils, which either have cooldowns or are completely contingent upon a CC skill actually causing an interrupt and not just hitting.

The most this update will do is cause you to be smarter about when you use your merge swoop as opposed to just pressing it every 10 seconds purely because you can.

@Kovu.7560 I wouldn't dispute that Core Warrior is strong, however thats a moot point considering pretty much
everything
right now is overtuned which was why such a wide sweeping patch like this needs to happen. Warrior in general did need to get touched on, but not nearly as much as other classes and truthfully the things they needed to hit on Warrior in general they did hit. Might generation, sustain off of that insane Might generation, the passives being a massive crutch mechanic that were very widely used, Bull's Charge getting its damage reduced because it was still able to nuke people, Rampage skills seeing damage reductions, and Reckless Dodge getting its damage reduced as well. Most of the problems got hit. The only lingering one I'd say is Adrenal Health and similar Burst related traits still proccing even if Full Counter doesn't actually hit, which is a contrary function compared to other burst skills (Longbow burst being the only exception) where if Eviscerate or Arcing Slice either miss or are otherwise negated (dodged, blinded, invuln'd, blocked) they do not proc those traits.

Like i said, i am not complaining about anything else, just the swoop CD, if it was 15s i wouldn't even have complained, 18 is just outrageous.

Also, core warrior does way more damage to me while i can't scratch them, i can force a stalemate yes, but mainly by swooping around.

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:So if ur running double swoop then ur mobility is more than sufficient with ur effective range.

At the moment, but with 18s CD it will be bad, i already have trouble catching Thieves with their shadowsteps, after this Warrior will easilly outmobility Ranger and Ranger won't even want to try to keep up with Thieves, also range totally depends on the build, my highest range comes from my throwing axe in the build i play.

I get that it sucks ur losing a bit of mobility but with rangers ability to hit a target for decent damage at 1200+ range should u really have been able to catch a thief or warrior using mobility skills in the first place?

Why do you assume everyone runs glassbow? Why shouldn't a ranger have mobility?

@Voltekka.2375 said:It is almost as if like certain people jump from a nerfed broken build to the next broken build, and QQ when said broken build will get rightly nerfed, cause they get classcarried. Almost.

I have mained ranger for a long time now, boonbeast specifically.

@Anput.4620 said:I also mainly care about my mobility relative to a Warclaw as that is important to not get ganked, 15s cd on swoop would be fine if Warclaw didn't exist.For what its worth I'm pretty sure the warclaw movement is being reduced to not-in-your-territory movement and (possibly?) the dodges will be affected as well. I can't find an Anet post on the matter, but folks around the forum seem to indicate that's a thing that's been discussed. Longbow on ranger is still one of the better tools for dealing with mounted players and the brief knockdown off their pet often allows an extra free shot or two. Plus if they're running away they're probably starting the fight some distance from you so you can pew pew to your heart's content. If they're a thief, mesmer or a bunker build they may still escape, but
everyone
has to deal with this fact.

It is true some of the other professions escaped minor mobility nerfs but rangers are still arguably in the best position to deal with mounted runners. So there's that at least.

~ Kovu

@Anput.4620 said:I also mainly care about my mobility relative to a Warclaw as that is important to not get ganked, 15s cd on swoop would be fine if Warclaw didn't exist.For what its worth I'm pretty sure the warclaw movement is being reduced to not-in-your-territory movement and (possibly?) the dodges will be affected as well. I can't find an Anet post on the matter, but folks around the forum seem to indicate that's a thing that's been discussed. Longbow on ranger is still one of the better tools for dealing with mounted players and the brief knockdown off their pet often allows an extra free shot or two. Plus if they're running away they're probably starting the fight some distance from you so you can pew pew to your heart's content. If they're a thief, mesmer or a bunker build they may still escape, but
everyone
has to deal with this fact.

It is true some of the other professions escaped minor mobility nerfs but rangers are still arguably in the best position to deal with mounted runners. So there's that at least.

~ Kovu

Movement speed normalization everywhere will just make it so you can't chase someone/escape someone ever anymore depending on what range you spot them.

I don't play Longbow but boonbeast. You are telling me that everyone has to deal with this warclaw BS, but no one should have to, make the darn thing swiftness speed.

You used to main permastealth deadeye prenerf, and jumped to boonbeast after.

I mained Spellbreaker and Thief was my alt, after that i swapped to Boonbeast when that became a thing as it was the most fun thing ever.

@RedShark.9548 said:You have like 3 or 4 ppl talking against you and
nobody really arguing for you
Oh, we're here. We're just tired of rehashing the same arguments over and over again year-in-and-year-out. In the end, 8-out-of-9 players approve of ranger nerfs.

As a ranger main, warrior is basically my kryptonite, but as it seems like warrior, ranger and elementalist saw the biggest nerfs and I'm not actually all that bummed about cooldown increases to the swoops. Those cooldowns are still fairly short, it is what it is. Honestly, its the continued nerfs to druid healing, core ranger, as well as weapons and utilities never seen in this gamemode that gets me.

Like, if Druid healing is overpowered in pve, nerf it in pve -- not here. ¯\
(ツ)

~ Kovu

In what world is warrior your kryptonite???Im serious, are we playing the same effing game? Sure you might not play a optimal build to fight warriors, but there sure as kitten are ranger builds that stomp warrior and laugh at him while doing it, in no world in warrior the counter to ranger kitten.

Yea, here we are again, multiple ppl trying to tell him why ranger has certain advantages over warrior, that justify longer cds on swoop, because they simply exist, no questions asked.

He has literally no argument, always just repeats "what about mesmer or thief" or "core war wrecks my build" no real explanation given and no understanding of the fact that other builds can wreck that core warrior.

Warrior mobility is only somewhat weaker than ranger's and generally good enough to catch rangers that initially commit to a fight, they have several tools to slow down rangers trying to run away via cripple, their damage in melee pre-patch dwarfs anything a ranger can put, much of that damage (pre-patch) coming attached to stuns, they have enough uptime on projectile reflection to counter ranged spam until they close the gap, arguably more damage mitigation, a larger health pool, higher base armor/defense, better stun break access and prevention, passive and active regeneration, the ability to be immune to critical hits (which they can cycle into their other immunities for nice power-damage mitigation for a longer duration) and some of the larger damage coefficients in the game (whereas rangers have lower coefficients due to their pets supposedly significantly contributing to the fight).

I'm not saying warriors are universally better at everything, but there are certainly things they
are
better at.

~ Kovu

You said warrior is the kryptonite to ranger which highly indicates a hard counter, which warrior just isnt.

A hardcounter to warrior would be like dragon hunter vs warrior, which definately isnt the case in a warrior vs ranger.

My
kryptonite, as in me personally for the build
I
run. If I rolled condi I'd probably have better odds, or I could tank up on boonbeast and force a stalemate.

~ Kovu

Eveb if you rolled a propet longbiw build youd probably have much better odds

The main comparison of this thread seems to be how the OP's concerns with regard to mobility are invalid because they're "comparing apples to oranges", and while that may or may not be true everyone is busy talking about the strengths of the apple (ranger) and not of that of the orange (warrior). I thought I'd pipe in and talk about the orange for a little bit.But sure, disregard everything I mentioned in a previous post about how warriors can literally tank and regen power damage for days and reflect projectiles and assume pewpew to be a suitable counter. If you want to think that rangers are somehow omnipotent, I honestly can't stop you.

You guys can continue discussing the whole swoop nerf with Anput, I couldn't be kitten about that particular change.

~ Kovu

Since you believe that warrior is an omnipotent god, let me my religion that ranger is one. Sounds just as kitten as it is.

In what world can warrior tank power dmg for days? They have pretty much no source of protection (which ranger btw has)The reflect has to be traited and then still has traited 20sec cd its on 1 weapon, wowi, ranger gs even has a knockdown tied to their block.They have barely any source for regeneration (the boon).The biggest sustain comes from traits that are tied to hitting their burst skills, dodge those and they wont have that.

And dont get me started on endure pain, ranger has stone sig, just saying.

And yes, longbow ranger hits hard enough to pressure a warrior, especially if they use unblockables. Not that hard to slot such thing in. Also helps vs guards btw.Warrior is in no world a counter to ranger, thats just kitten.

@RedShark.9548 said:You have like 3 or 4 ppl talking against you and
nobody really arguing for you
Oh, we're here. We're just tired of rehashing the same arguments over and over again year-in-and-year-out. In the end, 8-out-of-9 players approve of ranger nerfs.

As a ranger main, warrior is basically my kryptonite, but as it seems like warrior, ranger and elementalist saw the biggest nerfs and I'm not actually all that bummed about cooldown increases to the swoops. Those cooldowns are still fairly short, it is what it is. Honestly, its the continued nerfs to druid healing, core ranger, as well as weapons and utilities never seen in this gamemode that gets me.

Like, if Druid healing is overpowered in pve, nerf it in pve -- not here. ¯\
(ツ)

~ Kovu

In what world is warrior your kryptonite???Im serious, are we playing the same effing game? Sure you might not play a optimal build to fight warriors, but there sure as kitten are ranger builds that stomp warrior and laugh at him while doing it, in no world in warrior the counter to ranger kitten.

Yea, here we are again, multiple ppl trying to tell him why ranger has certain advantages over warrior, that justify longer cds on swoop, because they simply exist, no questions asked.

He has literally no argument, always just repeats "what about mesmer or thief" or "core war wrecks my build" no real explanation given and no understanding of the fact that other builds can wreck that core warrior.

Warrior mobility is only somewhat weaker than ranger's and generally good enough to catch rangers that initially commit to a fight, they have several tools to slow down rangers trying to run away via cripple, their damage in melee pre-patch dwarfs anything a ranger can put, much of that damage (pre-patch) coming attached to stuns, they have enough uptime on projectile reflection to counter ranged spam until they close the gap, arguably more damage mitigation, a larger health pool, higher base armor/defense, better stun break access and prevention, passive and active regeneration, the ability to be immune to critical hits (which they can cycle into their other immunities for nice power-damage mitigation for a longer duration) and some of the larger damage coefficients in the game (whereas rangers have lower coefficients due to their pets supposedly significantly contributing to the fight).

I'm not saying warriors are universally better at everything, but there are certainly things they
are
better at.

~ Kovu

You said warrior is the kryptonite to ranger which highly indicates a hard counter, which warrior just isnt.

A hardcounter to warrior would be like dragon hunter vs warrior, which definately isnt the case in a warrior vs ranger.

My
kryptonite, as in me personally for the build
I
run. If I rolled condi I'd probably have better odds, or I could tank up on boonbeast and force a stalemate.

~ Kovu

Eveb if you rolled a propet longbiw build youd probably have much better odds

@RedShark.9548 said:You have like 3 or 4 ppl talking against you and
nobody really arguing for you
Oh, we're here. We're just tired of rehashing the same arguments over and over again year-in-and-year-out. In the end, 8-out-of-9 players approve of ranger nerfs.

As a ranger main, warrior is basically my kryptonite, but as it seems like warrior, ranger and elementalist saw the biggest nerfs and I'm not actually all that bummed about cooldown increases to the swoops. Those cooldowns are still fairly short, it is what it is. Honestly, its the continued nerfs to druid healing, core ranger, as well as weapons and utilities never seen in this gamemode that gets me.

Like, if Druid healing is overpowered in pve, nerf it in pve -- not here. ¯\
(ツ)

~ Kovu

In what world is warrior your kryptonite???Im serious, are we playing the same effing game? Sure you might not play a optimal build to fight warriors, but there sure as kitten are ranger builds that stomp warrior and laugh at him while doing it, in no world in warrior the counter to ranger kitten.

Yea, here we are again, multiple ppl trying to tell him why ranger has certain advantages over warrior, that justify longer cds on swoop, because they simply exist, no questions asked.

He has literally no argument, always just repeats "what about mesmer or thief" or "core war wrecks my build" no real explanation given and no understanding of the fact that other builds can wreck that core warrior.

Warrior mobility is only somewhat weaker than ranger's and generally good enough to catch rangers that initially commit to a fight, they have several tools to slow down rangers trying to run away via cripple, their damage in melee pre-patch dwarfs anything a ranger can put, much of that damage (pre-patch) coming attached to stuns, they have enough uptime on projectile reflection to counter ranged spam until they close the gap, arguably more damage mitigation, a larger health pool, higher base armor/defense, better stun break access and prevention, passive and active regeneration, the ability to be immune to critical hits (which they can cycle into their other immunities for nice power-damage mitigation for a longer duration) and some of the larger damage coefficients in the game (whereas rangers have lower coefficients due to their pets supposedly significantly contributing to the fight).

I'm not saying warriors are universally better at everything, but there are certainly things they
are
better at.

~ Kovu

You said warrior is the kryptonite to ranger which highly indicates a hard counter, which warrior just isnt.

A hardcounter to warrior would be like dragon hunter vs warrior, which definately isnt the case in a warrior vs ranger.

My
kryptonite, as in me personally for the build
I
run. If I rolled condi I'd probably have better odds, or I could tank up on boonbeast and force a stalemate.

~ Kovu

Eveb if you rolled a propet longbiw build youd probably have much better odds

@RedShark.9548 said:You have like 3 or 4 ppl talking against you and
nobody really arguing for you
Oh, we're here. We're just tired of rehashing the same arguments over and over again year-in-and-year-out. In the end, 8-out-of-9 players approve of ranger nerfs.

As a ranger main, warrior is basically my kryptonite, but as it seems like warrior, ranger and elementalist saw the biggest nerfs and I'm not actually all that bummed about cooldown increases to the swoops. Those cooldowns are still fairly short, it is what it is. Honestly, its the continued nerfs to druid healing, core ranger, as well as weapons and utilities never seen in this gamemode that gets me.

Like, if Druid healing is overpowered in pve, nerf it in pve -- not here. ¯\
(ツ)

~ Kovu

In what world is warrior your kryptonite???Im serious, are we playing the same effing game? Sure you might not play a optimal build to fight warriors, but there sure as kitten are ranger builds that stomp warrior and laugh at him while doing it, in no world in warrior the counter to ranger kitten.

Yea, here we are again, multiple ppl trying to tell him why ranger has certain advantages over warrior, that justify longer cds on swoop, because they simply exist, no questions asked.

He has literally no argument, always just repeats "what about mesmer or thief" or "core war wrecks my build" no real explanation given and no understanding of the fact that other builds can wreck that core warrior.

Warrior mobility is only somewhat weaker than ranger's and generally good enough to catch rangers that initially commit to a fight, they have several tools to slow down rangers trying to run away via cripple, their damage in melee pre-patch dwarfs anything a ranger can put, much of that damage (pre-patch) coming attached to stuns, they have enough uptime on projectile reflection to counter ranged spam until they close the gap, arguably more damage mitigation, a larger health pool, higher base armor/defense, better stun break access and prevention, passive and active regeneration, the ability to be immune to critical hits (which they can cycle into their other immunities for nice power-damage mitigation for a longer duration) and some of the larger damage coefficients in the game (whereas rangers have lower coefficients due to their pets supposedly significantly contributing to the fight).

I'm not saying warriors are universally better at everything, but there are certainly things they
are
better at.

~ Kovu

You said warrior is the kryptonite to ranger which highly indicates a hard counter, which warrior just isnt.

A hardcounter to warrior would be like dragon hunter vs warrior, which definately isnt the case in a warrior vs ranger.

My
kryptonite, as in me personally for the build
I
run. If I rolled condi I'd probably have better odds, or I could tank up on boonbeast and force a stalemate.

~ Kovu

Eveb if you rolled a propet longbiw build youd probably have much better odds

Why is LB literally the only valid build to you lol.

I also mainly care about my mobility relative to a Warclaw as that is important to not get ganked, 15s cd on swoop would be fine if Warclaw didn't exist.

@Anput.4620 said:Reading again, why is Soulbeast Swoop getting almost double the cooldown while other classes mobility cooldowns are barely touched? Warrior has no increased cooldowns on GS mobility while Rangers GS swoop also got nerfed.

What leap has 18s cd?!

Because double swoop is a thing, both of which are on relatively short CDs. Also, Bull's Charge is a leap with a 30s CD, but then it is also a hard CC so it has a higher CD. Rush, the skill you are referring to is 20s CD untraited. So what is happening is Ranger (Soulbeast really) is getting their OP mobility brought more in line with others. Now if only thieves got more of their mobility nerfed...

How is that more in line at all? Rush is 20s because the weapon has 2 mobility skills on 1 weapon. Whirlwind attack has a whopping 10s cd which is the same as old meld Swoop.

Both swoops will now have an 15 and 18s cd respectively which is way longer than any other mobility profession, Thief can still spam SB5, Mesmer got 5 more seconds on Blink, nothing else, so can still teleport 4k range away in 3 seconds.

Thief, Mesmer and Ranger are known as the mobility professions, and only one of them got their mobility CD's gutted, i don't care about all the other changes which other classes got too with the lower damage etc, i do not like the higher CD's though, but just hitting Swoops and no one elses?

Whats double Swoop going to do when you are in combat with a Thief and their 2 ganking buddies on Warclaws charge at you in the distance? We need to drastically reduce Warclaw speed so you can still escape those ganking groups.

Warrior is often full melee class, outside of troll killshot builds, they need mobility to stay with a target. This is a bit OP right now because of warrior sustain and hard CC still hitting like a truck, however after the patch those hard CCs will be doing more or less 0 dmg and sustain will be going down as well. Soulbeast isn't hurting for mobility, they have some of the highest in the game for a class that can kite at 1,800 range, warrior can't do that. Mobility across the board was nerfed, guard GS LoF which is only 600 range, not 1,000 like soulbeast GS, is also seeing a CD increase to 15s.

You might want to read the patch notes about OTHER classes as well. Soulbeast does indeed right now have to much mobility, after the patch with nerfs to hard CC, mobility and kiting are going to be just that much more powerful. And looking at everything else, the nerfs look inline with most others, we will have to wait for live to see how it all plays out in the game.

How are the nerfs inline with Thieves and Mesmers which are the other mobile classes? I don't see any nerfs for them except 5 more seconds on Mes blink.

The problem is that the Warclaw still has the same speed, going OOC when you see 3 poeple on cats going towards you while fighting a mob will be that much harder and this only helps ganking groups.

Staff on mes saw an increased CD on Phase Retreat, increased CD on Blink, Mirage loses a dodge and as such doubles the CD of sword leap. For Thief, Death's Retreat saw a initiative cost increase, Withdraw saw a CD increase, along with other things and other initiative cost increases that effect all skill use on thief.

So I will ask again, did you read the patch notes for any of the other classes?

Warclaw was already talked about in the balance threads, they agree it is to powerful, and that a dodge will probably end up getting removed, and run speed will be the same across all areas with a possible over all reduction, people were asking for swiftness speed only. If that happens, then you would still be able to out run them. You also should not just be guaranteed escape because you are on soulbeast.

Mirage loses a dodge which is true, but most i see don't use staff, the oneshot builds or condi builds, the Thiefs abilities can still be spammed to run away, the initiative increases only hurt when you actually want to use the mobility while fighting, if you play defensive for a bit you can still shortbow out of there right after, i say this as someone that plays staff Thief and doesn't get the vault nerf because i literally see no other staff thiefs, the rifle nerf only affects DE and i am more worried about shortbow.

I don't play Mesmer so my knowledge on skill names is limmited but as someone that also plays Thief a lot the only nerfs that hurt a lot is vault to 6 and some cd increases like roll, nothing as bad as Swoop almost getting double the CD, heck, make it 15s, but 18 is just way too much on something that is just a dash.

@Anput.4620 said:Reading again, why is Soulbeast Swoop getting almost double the cooldown while other classes mobility cooldowns are barely touched? Warrior has no increased cooldowns on GS mobility while Rangers GS swoop also got nerfed.

What leap has 18s cd?!

Because double swoop is a thing, both of which are on relatively short CDs. Also, Bull's Charge is a leap with a 30s CD, but then it is also a hard CC so it has a higher CD. Rush, the skill you are referring to is 20s CD untraited. So what is happening is Ranger (Soulbeast really) is getting their OP mobility brought more in line with others. Now if only thieves got more of their mobility nerfed...

How is that more in line at all? Rush is 20s because the weapon has 2 mobility skills on 1 weapon. Whirlwind attack has a whopping 10s cd which is the same as old meld Swoop.

Both swoops will now have an 15 and 18s cd respectively which is way longer than any other mobility profession, Thief can still spam SB5, Mesmer got 5 more seconds on Blink, nothing else, so can still teleport 4k range away in 3 seconds.

Thief, Mesmer and Ranger are known as the mobility professions, and only one of them got their mobility CD's gutted, i don't care about all the other changes which other classes got too with the lower damage etc, i do not like the higher CD's though, but just hitting Swoops and no one elses?

Whats double Swoop going to do when you are in combat with a Thief and their 2 ganking buddies on Warclaws charge at you in the distance? We need to drastically reduce Warclaw speed so you can still escape those ganking groups.

Warrior is often full melee class, outside of troll killshot builds, they need mobility to stay with a target. This is a bit OP right now because of warrior sustain and hard CC still hitting like a truck, however after the patch those hard CCs will be doing more or less 0 dmg and sustain will be going down as well. Soulbeast isn't hurting for mobility, they have some of the highest in the game for a class that can kite at 1,800 range, warrior can't do that. Mobility across the board was nerfed, guard GS LoF which is only 600 range, not 1,000 like soulbeast GS, is also seeing a CD increase to 15s.

You might want to read the patch notes about OTHER classes as well. Soulbeast does indeed right now have to much mobility, after the patch with nerfs to hard CC, mobility and kiting are going to be just that much more powerful. And looking at everything else, the nerfs look inline with most others, we will have to wait for live to see how it all plays out in the game.

How are the nerfs inline with Thieves and Mesmers which are the other mobile classes? I don't see any nerfs for them except 5 more seconds on Mes blink.

The problem is that the Warclaw still has the same speed, going OOC when you see 3 poeple on cats going towards you while fighting a mob will be that much harder and this only helps ganking groups.

@Anput.4620 said:Reading again, why is Soulbeast Swoop getting almost double the cooldown while other classes mobility cooldowns are barely touched? Warrior has no increased cooldowns on GS mobility while Rangers GS swoop also got nerfed.

What leap has 18s cd?!

Because double swoop is a thing, both of which are on relatively short CDs. Also, Bull's Charge is a leap with a 30s CD, but then it is also a hard CC so it has a higher CD. Rush, the skill you are referring to is 20s CD untraited. So what is happening is Ranger (Soulbeast really) is getting their OP mobility brought more in line with others. Now if only thieves got more of their mobility nerfed...

How is that more in line at all? Rush is 20s because the weapon has 2 mobility skills on 1 weapon. Whirlwind attack has a whopping 10s cd which is the same as old meld Swoop.

Both swoops will now have an 15 and 18s cd respectively which is way longer than any other mobility profession, Thief can still spam SB5, Mesmer got 5 more seconds on Blink, nothing else, so can still teleport 4k range away in 3 seconds.

Thief, Mesmer and Ranger are known as the mobility professions, and only one of them got their mobility CD's gutted, i don't care about all the other changes which other classes got too with the lower damage etc, i do not like the higher CD's though, but just hitting Swoops and no one elses?

Whats double Swoop going to do when you are in combat with a Thief and their 2 ganking buddies on Warclaws charge at you in the distance? We need to drastically reduce Warclaw speed so you can still escape those ganking groups.

Double swoop is 2400 range. Whirlwind attack+rush is 1650 range. Double swoop is more mobility per CD than WWA+Rush.

Swoop is 2200 range, Warriors still have another weapon set in Dagger for spellbreaker to have a small dash too, Warrior was also never considered a mobility class and has other things, like stupid damage in core.

@Anput.4620 said:Reading again, why is Soulbeast Swoop getting almost double the cooldown while other classes mobility cooldowns are barely touched? Warrior has no increased cooldowns on GS mobility while Rangers GS swoop also got nerfed.

What leap has 18s cd?!

Because double swoop is a thing, both of which are on relatively short CDs. Also, Bull's Charge is a leap with a 30s CD, but then it is also a hard CC so it has a higher CD. Rush, the skill you are referring to is 20s CD untraited. So what is happening is Ranger (Soulbeast really) is getting their OP mobility brought more in line with others. Now if only thieves got more of their mobility nerfed...

How is that more in line at all? Rush is 20s because the weapon has 2 mobility skills on 1 weapon. Whirlwind attack has a whopping 10s cd which is the same as old meld Swoop.

Both swoops will now have an 15 and 18s cd respectively which is way longer than any other mobility profession, Thief can still spam SB5, Mesmer got 5 more seconds on Blink, nothing else, so can still teleport 4k range away in 3 seconds.

Thief, Mesmer and Ranger are known as the mobility professions, and only one of them got their mobility CD's gutted, i don't care about all the other changes which other classes got too with the lower damage etc, i do not like the higher CD's though, but just hitting Swoops and no one elses?

Whats double Swoop going to do when you are in combat with a Thief and their 2 ganking buddies on Warclaws charge at you in the distance? We need to drastically reduce Warclaw speed so you can still escape those ganking groups.

Where are these thieves with unlimited initiative you speak of?

I am saying that they can still spam the same amount so their relative mobility goes up.

The same amount isn't all that much and they're still left with the exact same options after they've blown that initiative. Except after the patch, turning and unloading a burst won't be an option. Shortbow mobility isn't what's wrong with thief.

Soulbeast lasted the longest out of any class with a killer tool kit at their disposal. Cutting their mobility and sustain, especially relative to all the other class changes, on paper, doesn't seem bad imo. Looking at it with blinders on before you can even play it is just unnecessary stress.

Im just imagining ganking groups on cats running me down and i have no mobility to not get chased and corpse jumped on. If Warclaw had swiftness speed i wouldn't mind as much, 18 seconds on just a dash is insane though, 15 would be more fair.

@Anput.4620 said:Reading again, why is Soulbeast Swoop getting almost double the cooldown while other classes mobility cooldowns are barely touched? Warrior has no increased cooldowns on GS mobility while Rangers GS swoop also got nerfed.

What leap has 18s cd?!

because ranger has very good ranged options, has access to stealth, and overall good mobility.while warrior is mostly full melee, has no way to stealth without others and has to be able to stick to their target, because thats the only way to apply pressure.you are comparing oranges with apples

Except core warrior is way more broken atm.

Stealth is also very limited, i don't use either smokescale or longbow.

And what about thieves and mesmers?

@Anput.4620 said:Reading again, why is Soulbeast Swoop getting almost double the cooldown while other classes mobility cooldowns are barely touched? Warrior has no increased cooldowns on GS mobility while Rangers GS swoop also got nerfed.

What leap has 18s cd?!

because ranger has very good ranged options, has access to stealth, and overall good mobility.while warrior is mostly full melee, has no way to stealth without others and has to be able to stick to their target, because thats the only way to apply pressure.you are comparing oranges with apples

Very much this^This post is a good example of why simply comparing one classes skill to ur own and thinking cuz their similar they should follow the same parameters is never a good way to try and argue a nerf or for a buff.

Core war is infinitely better. And what about thieves and mesmers?

In what regard is core war infinitely better than soulbeast? Ranger cant kite warriors so hard and have more or same amount of sustain atm.

Its not my fault you dont play the strong stuff, longbow and smokescale are definately very very viable and just because YOU dont play those doesnt mean your mobility should get buffed, lol.

Use the tools the game gives you. And if you dont use them, dont cry for buffs, seriously. Anet wont buff mobility, just because you dont like your stealth options.Imagine someone dares to like longbow AND smallscale and gets mobility buffs ontop, just because you need that with your special snowflake build. Oof. Nightmares.

I was just answering about warrior, because i know warrior best and i do agree that thief, mesmer and warclaw mobility need to be toned down as they are right now.

You are telling me that right now in the game you can outrun a warclaw? Well there you have your answer, mobility nerf WELL deserved, cant do that on warrior.

Core warriors have way more sustain while being able to use Zerker gear and spike for stupid amounts of damage.

I play Boonbeast with a greatsword axe and warhorn, how is that a bad build by any means? Not everyone plays glass damage builds. I easilly beat most glass rangers with this build as this build excells against glass builds, but any build that also has simillar sustain but way more damage, like core warrior, just wrecks it, all i can do is be on the defensive, kite, and not die as i don't get a chance to do enough damage.

So u play soulbeast who has a way more effective and versatile ranged weapon with lb than any other class and for sure warrior and ur complaining that ur melee builds are also not superior to the class who SHOULD be the king of melee (warrior) as rangers are king of range. Cmon man u serious? I donno if I'd even put warrior ahead in melee compared to ranger though it definitely should be. With that said soulbeast as a whole has great mobility and the fact u chose to play a build that runs with less mobility than comparing it to classes running higher mobility builds is funny. If a warrior isnt running gs or bullscharge what crazy mobility does it have? Yeah.

How am i running less mobility? My build still has double swoop.

I "literally" never said that longbow is the only valid build for ranger. I said that you cant just have everything in one build, jesus, and thats what you exactly want, you want insane mobility, you want stealth and big damages.

You have to make decisions, take one and leave something else, its not hard to understand that concept.You already said, you destroy other builds with your boonbeast, so why do you think it should destroy EVERY build out there?

Where did i ever say i want stealth and big damages? I was fine with the sustain, boons and mobility, never asked for the other 2.

It doesn't destroy every build out there, it folds to heavy condi builds or bruiser builds like core warrior, where i can only force a stalemate in the latter.

Do you know what most Core Warriors have to do to even stalemate a Boonbeast? Hit all their bursts to maintain Adrenal Health. So that tells me that you're essentially letting them smack you with some of their most telegraphed attacks and you're
still
not dying all while enabling them to sustain pretty heavily.

Lets also remember that Warrior damage did take a hit with this patch just like every other class so if your concern is that they will do "too much" damage to what will be a nerfed Boonbeast...you're still going to have your Protection, you're still going to have your evades, you're still going to have your Regen, you're still going to have Swoop...its just now merge Swoop will be on an 18 second cooldown and your boons won't be able to get their durations padded as hard by Moa Stance. That nerf to 20% on Moa Stance turns around 45 seconds of about 25 stacks of Stability into about 30 seconds of Stability with that build I outlined earlier. Still quite a lot...but definitely needed to happen and that was all paired with the mobility. Worst case scenario...use your evades better.

It needed to happen...I know you might not like it, I know there is some part of you that is extremely worried now that somehow an 18 second cooldown merge Swoop is going to be the difference between a win and a loss for you and well...good. Every other class got hit in similar ways, it just so happened that the insane mobility and
very low
cooldown on Soulbeast took a hit. Don't worry, no one is going to be running around with Defense passives anymore if thats a concern as well. A lot of Warriors were pretty carried by those passives and the excessive Might generation, just as Boonbeasts have been pretty carried by their boon uptime and mobility, just as Weaver got pretty carried by Twist of Fate and Obsidian Flesh still allowing them to use skills even while invuln, and so on and so forth with a bunch of other classes.

Again...all needed to happen. You'll be fine if you adapt which I suspect many, many people won't and that will lead to quite a bit of salt flooding these forums, even more than right now.

Oh and also...build were bound to change or get broken or whatever else in any balance shake up ANet did if it was going to be worth anything. If that is the case here...
good
. Needs it. No one should have expected the builds they have been using for a long time now to just go unchanged, that is not how something like this should work. If you need to alter your Soulbeast build significantly after this patch, and really if most classes need to, then honestly I think the patch will have done its job. Aka establish something different.

I never said a nerf was unfair, just that 18 seconds is ridiculous, 15 would be more fair, i also didn't complain about the other nerfs, my main worry with mobility nerfs is, how will it balance out relative to warclaw balance? What will be done so that when i 1v1 a Thief whom can keep me in combat immobile necro and guard won't be able to speed at me with a cat regardless of their class mobility to come 3v1 me for free and without cost? If class mobility gets nerfed will warclaw mobility also be significantly be nerfed? Mainly base movement speed so we still have the same relative mobility. Seeing as zero care was given when implemented, how much care will be given now? Even with the Spear i believe that every class should have a chance to dismount someone and that the Warclaw shouldn't outspeed a Thief/Mesmer/Ranger.

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@Anput.4620 said:

I never said a nerf was unfair, just that 18 seconds is ridiculous, 15 would be more fair, i also didn't complain about the other nerfs, my main worry with mobility nerfs is, how will it balance out relative to warclaw balance? What will be done so that when i 1v1 a Thief whom can keep me in combat immobile necro and guard won't be able to speed at me with a cat regardless of their class mobility to come 3v1 me for free and without cost? If class mobility gets nerfed will warclaw mobility also be significantly be nerfed? Mainly base movement speed so we still have the same relative mobility. Seeing as zero care was given when implemented, how much care will be given now? Even with the Spear i believe that every class should have a chance to dismount someone and that the Warclaw shouldn't outspeed a Thief/Mesmer/Ranger.

Warclaw is not an excuse for rangers over the top mobility. What people are saying is that ranger mobility nerf should not be fair in relation to other classes due to it's mobility being considered over the top by most in it's current state. The balance here is about class vs class, not one class vs warclaw, because if that's the case, there are so many classes and builds that need huge mobility BUFFS if warclaw is going to be used as the baseline.

This patch is also centered around a new baseline for everything, changes will be made after this patch, but did not include any of the changes to warclaw which they stated they believe offers to much. Most people posting here have also stated they think warclaw is over the top, however that is NOT an excuse or reason to not bring down mobility of just your favorite class. This should be a post about changing warclaw, but it's not because you know what that mobility means in combat as well and just shows your bias.

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@TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:

I never said a nerf was unfair, just that 18 seconds is ridiculous, 15 would be more fair, i also didn't complain about the other nerfs, my main worry with mobility nerfs is, how will it balance out relative to warclaw balance? What will be done so that when i 1v1 a Thief whom can keep me in combat immobile necro and guard won't be able to speed at me with a cat regardless of their class mobility to come 3v1 me for free and without cost? If class mobility gets nerfed will warclaw mobility also be significantly be nerfed? Mainly base movement speed so we still have the same relative mobility. Seeing as zero care was given when implemented, how much care will be given now? Even with the Spear i believe that every class should have a chance to dismount someone and that the Warclaw shouldn't outspeed a Thief/Mesmer/Ranger.

Warclaw is not an excuse for rangers over the top mobility. What people are saying is that ranger mobility nerf should not be fair in relation to other classes due to it's mobility being considered over the top by most in it's current state. The balance here is about class vs class, not one class vs warclaw, because if that's the case, there are so many classes and builds that need huge mobility BUFFS if warclaw is going to be used as the baseline.

This patch is also centered around a new baseline for everything, changes will be made after this patch, but did not include any of the changes to warclaw which they stated they believe offers to much. Most people posting here have also stated they think warclaw is over the top, however that is NOT an excuse or reason to not bring down mobility of just your favorite class. This should be a post about changing warclaw, but it's not because you know what that mobility means in combat as well and just shows your bias.

If it's mobility is over the top then why do Thieves and Mesmers have more, while Warrior is pretty close too.

Warclaw should be taken into consideration in how it affects the natural balance of the game between classes that has been here for years, something theyve only started doing recently.

Whenever i make a warclaw post ktrainers come to the cats rescue and tell me it is fine, damned if i do damned if i don't lol.

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@Anput.4620 said:

I never said a nerf was unfair, just that 18 seconds is ridiculous, 15 would be more fair, i also didn't complain about the other nerfs, my main worry with mobility nerfs is, how will it balance out relative to warclaw balance? What will be done so that when i 1v1 a Thief whom can keep me in combat immobile necro and guard won't be able to speed at me with a cat regardless of their class mobility to come 3v1 me for free and without cost? If class mobility gets nerfed will warclaw mobility also be significantly be nerfed? Mainly base movement speed so we still have the same relative mobility. Seeing as zero care was given when implemented, how much care will be given now? Even with the Spear i believe that every class should have a chance to dismount someone and that the Warclaw shouldn't outspeed a Thief/Mesmer/Ranger.

Warclaw is not an excuse for rangers over the top mobility. What people are saying is that ranger mobility nerf should not be fair in relation to other classes due to it's mobility being considered over the top by most in it's current state. The balance here is about class vs class, not one class vs warclaw, because if that's the case, there are so many classes and builds that need huge mobility BUFFS if warclaw is going to be used as the baseline.

This patch is also centered around a new baseline for everything, changes will be made after this patch, but did not include any of the changes to warclaw which they stated they believe offers to much. Most people posting here have also stated they think warclaw is over the top, however that is NOT an excuse or reason to not bring down mobility of just your favorite class. This should be a post about changing warclaw, but it's not because you know what that mobility means in combat as well and just shows your bias.

If it's mobility is over the top then why do Thieves and Mesmers have more, while Warrior is pretty close too.

Warclaw should be taken into consideration in how it affects the natural balance of the game between classes that has been here for years, something theyve only started doing recently.

Whenever i make a warclaw post ktrainers come to the cats rescue and tell me it is fine, damned if i do damned if i don't lol.

So, unless ranger is top mobility, you have an issue with it?

The fact you think this is telling.

No one in here has said anything about warclaw other than just about everyone agreeing with you, as we have been talking about it since it was released.

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Basing a class balance mobility wise on a OP mount that shouldn't have been added into wvw in the first place will just increase powercreep. It's the mount that needs more nerfs not ranger in need of mobility buffs. Also thiefs and mesmers have more mobility than rangers cuz that's one of their strengths in designs as ranger has it's own strengths that are different than thief or mesmer which is a good thing as it helps create class identity no?

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@Anput.4620 said:

I never said a nerf was unfair, just that 18 seconds is ridiculous, 15 would be more fair, i also didn't complain about the other nerfs, my main worry with mobility nerfs is, how will it balance out relative to warclaw balance? What will be done so that when i 1v1 a Thief whom can keep me in combat immobile necro and guard won't be able to speed at me with a cat regardless of their class mobility to come 3v1 me for free and without cost? If class mobility gets nerfed will warclaw mobility also be significantly be nerfed? Mainly base movement speed so we still have the same relative mobility. Seeing as zero care was given when implemented, how much care will be given now? Even with the Spear i believe that every class should have a chance to dismount someone and that the Warclaw shouldn't outspeed a Thief/Mesmer/Ranger.

Warclaw is not an excuse for rangers over the top mobility. What people are saying is that ranger mobility nerf should not be fair in relation to other classes due to it's mobility being considered over the top by most in it's current state. The balance here is about class vs class, not one class vs warclaw, because if that's the case, there are so many classes and builds that need huge mobility BUFFS if warclaw is going to be used as the baseline.

This patch is also centered around a new baseline for everything, changes will be made after this patch, but did not include any of the changes to warclaw which they stated they believe offers to much. Most people posting here have also stated they think warclaw is over the top, however that is NOT an excuse or reason to not bring down mobility of just your favorite class. This should be a post about changing warclaw, but it's not because you know what that mobility means in combat as well and just shows your bias.

If it's mobility is over the top then why do Thieves and Mesmers have more, while Warrior is pretty close too.

Warclaw should be taken into consideration in how it affects the natural balance of the game between classes that has been here for years, something theyve only started doing recently.

Whenever i make a warclaw post ktrainers come to the cats rescue and tell me it is fine, damned if i do damned if i don't lol.

And I think it has been repeated multiple times now that Warclaw will be getting changes. Cal has directly said that they are looking to reduce the number of evades Warclaw has as well as cut its movement speed down below what it is currently capable of. Both by removing its speed bonus in owned territories as well as cutting down its base speed to that of about what a player can achieve with Swiftness.

As for Thief and Mesmer mobility, both of those classes got touched on as well. I don't know why you keep bringing them up when Thief did see a bit of a nerf to its mobility, it is also a class that requires more active defenses as opposed to the "just pop boons and you're good" general defenses of Boonbeast. Mesmer, specifically Mirage which I assume is more the target, took a big hit to its dodges. As for Warrior it is a primarily melee class, its sustain is generally built off of needing to hit with its skills and while, yes, GS3 has an evade on it as well as Bull's Charge both are significantly limited in range compared to Soulbeast merge swoop and GS swoop, most of which are on longer cooldowns than either of those Swoops right now. The only one shorter is GS3 however it has significantly more limited range than GS swoop, and with Warrior losing its passives as well as having its sustain cut in half, more or less, there isn't much reason to increase the CD on GS3. Also Rush isn't even an evade as opposed to GS Swoop being an evade.

Your concerns, however, seem to be centered on Warclaw or for that matter a general lack of grasping the fact that these other classes you're comparing things to got hit in completely different ways that don't warrant touching their mobility. Soulbeast was overtuned in this sense because it kind of had all of it; tons of Mobility, Boon uptime on things like Protection, Regen, Stability and Might, damage, stealth, tons of sustain on top of several evades on skills.

Now again I will say it, for the third time in this post to make sure you see it. Warclaw is going to get touched on. They have already expressed their intentions, as I stated at the beginning of this post, and we will likely see them ingame at some point. Maybe they will come with this upcoming patch, but don't expect it. The point is that its something that ANet themselves, specifically Cal, have directly mentioned and have confirmed they want to do something with it. So just stop with the straw mans and false equivalencies.

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Good thing that high mobility (in WvW) isn't at all a busted, imbalanced, low skilled, crutch that lets you screw up / get outplayed without getting punished for it. Which doesn't at all break fundamental concepts of good game design like risk vs reward. Seven years of superbly balanced mobility in WvW comes to an end in this patch...

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@Anput.4620 said:What has been put into measure so Thieves can't just laugh in shortbow 5 spam?

Also what about Warclaw movement speed? Chasing you down with 3 poeple while you are in combat, how do you escape that now with the 6000 second cds on every leap? Or rejoining you when taking a camp because killing one of them takes ages?

Nerf Warclaw speed and shortbow 5 plox ty.

EDIT: So it is just Ranger Swoops and nothing Thief, Warrior or Mesmer? Ok then.

Only some professions are truly getting nerfed in the mobility dept, not all. It’s bull.

I didn’t sign up to play WoW. Professions need to have more mobility options, not less

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@Anput.4620 said:So i just tried to chase a rev with curent double swoop 3 times, they got away and remounted all 3 times with assassin stance, top tier mobility my kitten.

Dont u have swiftness and quickness availability on soulbeast? I mean assassin stance can provide 50% movement speed for a duration and staff 5 can gain some ground quick but the rest of their tele's require targets. With 33% movement speed increase via ur swiftness and two swoops u weren't able to catch him? Hmmm if he tele by using npc targets that's skillfull and deserved the disengagement no? Plus ur pew pew range.

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@Junkpile.7439 said:Mesmer have blink. Slow class.

It was mostly a joke but in reality, a class that can't be touched by melee while it pelts you with ranged damage is the same whether it's a mile away or 5 feet away

Difference is you can just about face and run 10 feet in the opposite direction from most rangers and be out of bow range if you don't want to fight.

People tend to start pew pewing the second they get into 1800 range. Take one step back and sniping from the moon stops working.

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