Jump to content
  • Sign Up

Balance Update Update - PvP


Recommended Posts

@Ghostof Luzifer.6159 said:

@"Nascull.5842" said:game patches are based on casual players that cannot handle the lose of a battle they complain and complain infinite (instead of studying a counter build setup) until the game is boring and evry class is kinda playable by a kid having down sydrome u will lose veteran players anet but im sure u guys do not care about that as long the new 1nes stream in that buy blindfolded gems anet just follows the gembuyers like a man follows his thing in pants

these patches are achieving quite the opposite actually. All pvp veterans are comming back. The current meta carries worse players more than good players apparently.

And you know that how exactly? Cuz you and your buddy though some of these changes are cool or something.

"The current meta carries worse players more than good players apparently." No ** statement was ever said.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 185
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

@bravan.3876 said:I am not sure i understand why deleting pet swap leads to more diversity. Isn't the reason why only few pets get used no matter what build is played (range pew pew dmg or axe spam tanky boonbeast or whatever) atm because few pets are simply much stronger than other pets overall? If anything the nerfs to pets bringing them more in line to each other will lead to more diversity in terms of what pets will be used, not the limitation to use only one pet.

You're misunderstanding the reason behind the diversity problem Soulbeast has. It's not that the pets were ever the problem, it's that Soulbeast had all the advantages of Base Ranger, but better overall damage. There was no reason to run Base Ranger anymore. By removing the pet swapping the Devs are forcing players to chose between:

2 petsor1 Pet and Merging.

Those that want more pet options for utility would drop Soulbeast, and those that want direct bonuses while merged would take Soulbeast. Thus leading to more build diversity.

Link to post
Share on other sites

@YTKafka.4681 said:

@bravan.3876 said:I am not sure i understand why deleting pet swap leads to more diversity. Isn't the reason why only few pets get used no matter what build is played (range pew pew dmg or axe spam tanky boonbeast or whatever) atm because few pets are simply much stronger than other pets overall? If anything the nerfs to pets bringing them more in line to each other will lead to more diversity in terms of what pets will be used, not the limitation to use only one pet.

You're misunderstanding the reason behind the diversity problem Soulbeast has. It's not that the pets were ever the problem, it's that Soulbeast had all the advantages of Base Ranger, but better overall damage. There was no reason to run Base Ranger anymore. By removing the pet swapping the Devs are forcing players to chose between:

2 petsor1 Pet and Merging.

Those that want more pet options for utility would
drop Soulbeast
, and those that want direct bonuses while merged would
take Soulbeast
. Thus leading to more build diversity.

Ah yes i missunderstood you. But I saw even Boyce running core Ranger over Soulbeast. It already had different strengths compared to Soulbeast and was picked for that. Also you already have to choose between merging and losing pet during merge vs better use pet depending on situation infight, that is the inherent trade off since release. A trade off that clearly adds skill ceiling/ floor and tactical complexity compared to an pretty easy core Ranger playstyle. I am not saying Soulbeast didn't need nerfs on his insane kit of a lot of skills, i just say normal nerfs to Soulbeast skills would do that too without deleting active and skill ceiling parts of the Soulbeast mechanic. And core Ranger would be picked even more often over Soulbeast.

Link to post
Share on other sites

@hotte in space.2158 said:

@"bravan.3876" said:You rly should consider to rethink balance planes about Obsidian Flesh on Ele

Thx bravan for mentioning OBSIDIAN FLESH.Nerfing this skill was intended to reduce tankyness of weaver. But as many weavers didnt even use focus, they will be able to compensate this change and still be viable in the future.For all core eles and tempests its the end. Obsidian Flesh is the one and only, most essential, indispensable defensive skill for them. Core ele and tempest were the weakest specs in PvP the last years, and the plan to nerf Obsidian Flesh means to bring them down from useless to absolutely useless.Playing tempest with a damage build (sage amulet/fire-stone traitline) I made it even up to P2 a few times (when lucky with matchmaking), but realistically P1 was the maximum possible to achieve the last seasons. There had been just a few core ele and tempest specialists left in PvP, but if this change on Obsidian Flesh should be realised, there will be non of them anymore. In the name of balance and diversity : DONT NERF OBSIDIAN FLESH !As there are not many playing core ele or tempest, there is also no lobby, no major feedback for them. Thats why I am happy about everybody who puts his finger on that problem. So thx again bravan^^

Except the problem with Obsidian Flesh was that it was one of the only true invuln skills (things like Elixir S, Renewed Focus, skills like that) that allowed the character to be invulnerable and use all of their skills at the same time. Distortion is another one and I think that needs to get looked at as well and potentially get the same treatment considering the duration you can stack on it being pretty similar in length.

Now I know Endure Pain and Signet of Stone will get tossed into this particular discussion but what many people seem to forget is that Endure Pain and Signet of Stone only negate power damage and thats it. Conditions can still be applied and deal damage and CC effects can also still be applied. Which means you can still successfully lock down someone using Endure Pain or Signet of Stone for its duration whereas with other true invuln skills this was not possible and Obsidian Flesh just essentially gave the Ele free opportunities for damage. Obsidian Flesh essentially got the benefit of both worlds, the ability to still use skills as well as be completely immune to literally everything for 4 seconds.

As for Tempest and Ele becoming "absolutely useless" in sPvP I honestly think that has less to do with how they worked and more to do with how overtuned Weaver has become as well as many other PoF elite specs were made. Look at how much of a monopoly PoF elite specs have had in sPvP over this span of 3 years, with some obvious exceptions, one of them being Renegade. Mirage being chief among them as it held a monopoly on both Power and Condi builds, regardless of your feelings or others ideas on how hard Mirage has had it over these years there was literally no reason to take Core or Chrono over it because just like every other PoF spec it was horrendously overtuned. The issue also lies in some fundamental issues with Conquest as a game mode and how it functions, as well as Solo/Duo Queue also being a fundamental problem with Ranked but that is an entirely different discussion and not something to dive deep into here.

Link to post
Share on other sites

@KryTiKaL.3125 said:

@"bravan.3876" said:You rly should consider to rethink balance planes about Obsidian Flesh on Ele

Thx bravan for mentioning OBSIDIAN FLESH.Nerfing this skill was intended to reduce tankyness of weaver. But as many weavers didnt even use focus, they will be able to compensate this change and still be viable in the future.For all core eles and tempests its the end. Obsidian Flesh is the one and only, most essential, indispensable defensive skill for them. Core ele and tempest were the weakest specs in PvP the last years, and the plan to nerf Obsidian Flesh means to bring them down from useless to absolutely useless.Playing tempest with a damage build (sage amulet/fire-stone traitline) I made it even up to P2 a few times (when lucky with matchmaking), but realistically P1 was the maximum possible to achieve the last seasons. There had been just a few core ele and tempest specialists left in PvP, but if this change on Obsidian Flesh should be realised, there will be non of them anymore. In the name of balance and diversity : DONT NERF OBSIDIAN FLESH !As there are not many playing core ele or tempest, there is also no lobby, no major feedback for them. Thats why I am happy about everybody who puts his finger on that problem. So thx again bravan^^

Except the problem with Obsidian Flesh was that it was one of the only
true
invuln skills (things like Elixir S, Renewed Focus, skills like that) that allowed the character to be invulnerable
and
use all of their skills at the same time. Distortion is another one and I think that needs to get looked at as well and potentially get the same treatment considering the duration you can stack on it being pretty similar in length.

Now I know Endure Pain and Signet of Stone will get tossed into this particular discussion but what many people seem to forget is that Endure Pain and Signet of Stone only negate power damage and
thats it
. Conditions can still be applied and deal damage and CC effects can also still be applied. Which means you can still successfully lock down someone using Endure Pain or Signet of Stone for its duration whereas with other
true
invuln skills this was not possible and Obsidian Flesh just essentially gave the Ele free opportunities for damage. Obsidian Flesh essentially got the benefit of both worlds, the ability to still use skills as well as be completely immune to literally
everything
for 4 seconds.

As for Tempest and Ele becoming "absolutely useless" in sPvP I honestly think that has less to do with how they worked and more to do with how overtuned Weaver has become as well as many other PoF elite specs were made. Look at how much of a monopoly PoF elite specs have had in sPvP over this span of 3 years, with some obvious exceptions, one of them being Renegade. Mirage being chief among them as it held a monopoly on both Power and Condi builds, regardless of your feelings or others ideas on how hard Mirage has had it over these years there was literally no reason to take Core or Chrono over it because just like every other PoF spec it was horrendously overtuned. The issue also lies in some fundamental issues with Conquest as a game mode and how it functions, as well as Solo/Duo Queue also being a fundamental problem with Ranked but that is an entirely different discussion and not something to dive deep into here.

Yeah but such comparisions between classes do not always make sense. Ofc adding a 3-4s invuln without skill lock out to everything a class like Warrior already has, a class that has already insane stat advantage compared to other classes, is facetanky as hell even on glassy speced builds or has still very high dmg on tanky speced builds, has a lot of other out of jail cards etc. would be a bad idea. Just like there are reasons current Warrior specs don't have access to teleports and stealth. There is a reason skills in core game were designed differently and why Engi, Guards and Warriors (classes with simply higher base defense and enough other stuff instead) have different invuln skills than Ele or Mesmer. With other words: Classes are different, they have different mechanics, different strengths and for that need to have different skills.

Mesmer i would take out of this completely anyway, because it is not a just click a button for 4s invuln skill, it consumes all active class resources aside from the cd itself (the skill would cost way too much for the reward it gives when locking out of skills, it would even punish the Mesmer for collecting too many clones for a longer invuln, totally unlogical) and Mesmers are (same as FA Ele just on all builds) from the basic class mechanic build around comboing with instant shatters and cover casts with invuln. It would not make sense and would not be fair to treat their invuln skills like Warriors or Engis invuln skills (for all the bunker Ele specs it might be acceptable but not for glassy Ele specs like FA, a build that is like Mesmer build around comboing with instant stuff and cover casts with invuln. That is why Ele compared to Warrior also has blocks during the Ele can still cast other skills).

Also other invuln skills have other rewards in addition to the invuln. Some are also stunbreaker, some reset other important skills (f skills on Guard). There is no logic behind making all invuln skills the same when classes are differently designed what creates the need for different designed invuln skills, classes have different need of using invuln time for other actions and when the invuln skills itself are not the same (as said other invuln skills have addition rewards). Mesmer once again would be doomed the most by this change. 1. the invuln skill doesn't have addition rewards (no stunbreak, no reset of other skills) and it has already double costs by cd itself and consuming all active class resources in addition. And it would be totally contrary to the class shatter mechanic, Mesmer would be clunky as hell. Maybe even unplayable on glassy specs, just like FA Ele because it contradicts the whole playstyle of the build/ class.

Currently it seems the balance philosophy it to tar all with the same brush. To treat different stuff not different and even try to make different stuff equal without them being equal by basic nature (means there are reasons they are different and should stay different). Doesn't always make sense. Some stuff the origin def team did during creating and balancing the core game rly makes sense and should be retained for several reasons.

Link to post
Share on other sites

@"bravan.3876"I member playing axe/torch + scepter/pistol illu/domi/mirage.bloody hell its uphill battle against everything.not alot of healing, no weakness, no protectionyou deal good chunk of damage, you take SHIT TON of damage, I liked axe, becouse even classes that usually lose to condi mes like warrior or rev have chance, good burst and im gonzo. but I for example cant immagine playing this build with.1 pistol damage halved2 sharper immages reduced by 90-95%3 all evasive skills nerfed, scepter 2 axe 3 and1 less dodge.to yall, MESMER IS NOT MENT TO HAVE PROTECTION. its illusionist, the reason why cmirage is toxic is becouse weakness+prot means that even if we get hit it doesnt matter most of the times.ambush damage isnt even strong anymore, there is no more "passive" damage.axe ambush is a joke, half the times clones dont use it, hit wrong targets, axes hit walls, etc etc + clones die.scepter ambush is 100% sharper img dmg and its nerfed into nothingand staff ambush never hits, unless point blank and then its 1,8k dmg anyways.Funny world we live in, where power mirage ambushes deal more dmg then condi. will 180 flip right there :D

Link to post
Share on other sites

@Ghostof Luzifer.6159 said:

@Nascull.5842 said:game patches are based on casual players that cannot handle the lose of a battle they complain and complain infinite (instead of studying a counter build setup) until the game is boring and evry class is kinda playable by a kid having down sydrome u will lose veteran players anet but im sure u guys do not care about that as long the new 1nes stream in that buy blindfolded gems anet just follows the gembuyers like a man follows his thing in pants

these patches are achieving quite the opposite actually. All pvp veterans are comming back. The current meta carries worse players more than good players apparently.

maybe ure right im just afraid that anet wil make wrong choices like in the past and the game will die at the end

Link to post
Share on other sites

@bravan.3876 said:

@bravan.3876 said:You rly should consider to rethink balance planes about Obsidian Flesh on Ele

Thx bravan for mentioning OBSIDIAN FLESH.Nerfing this skill was intended to reduce tankyness of weaver. But as many weavers didnt even use focus, they will be able to compensate this change and still be viable in the future.For all core eles and tempests its the end. Obsidian Flesh is the one and only, most essential, indispensable defensive skill for them. Core ele and tempest were the weakest specs in PvP the last years, and the plan to nerf Obsidian Flesh means to bring them down from useless to absolutely useless.Playing tempest with a damage build (sage amulet/fire-stone traitline) I made it even up to P2 a few times (when lucky with matchmaking), but realistically P1 was the maximum possible to achieve the last seasons. There had been just a few core ele and tempest specialists left in PvP, but if this change on Obsidian Flesh should be realised, there will be non of them anymore. In the name of balance and diversity : DONT NERF OBSIDIAN FLESH !As there are not many playing core ele or tempest, there is also no lobby, no major feedback for them. Thats why I am happy about everybody who puts his finger on that problem. So thx again bravan^^

Except the problem with Obsidian Flesh was that it was one of the only
true
invuln skills (things like Elixir S, Renewed Focus, skills like that) that allowed the character to be invulnerable
and
use all of their skills at the same time. Distortion is another one and I think that needs to get looked at as well and potentially get the same treatment considering the duration you can stack on it being pretty similar in length.

Now I know Endure Pain and Signet of Stone will get tossed into this particular discussion but what many people seem to forget is that Endure Pain and Signet of Stone only negate power damage and
thats it
. Conditions can still be applied and deal damage and CC effects can also still be applied. Which means you can still successfully lock down someone using Endure Pain or Signet of Stone for its duration whereas with other
true
invuln skills this was not possible and Obsidian Flesh just essentially gave the Ele free opportunities for damage. Obsidian Flesh essentially got the benefit of both worlds, the ability to still use skills as well as be completely immune to literally
everything
for 4 seconds.

As for Tempest and Ele becoming "absolutely useless" in sPvP I honestly think that has less to do with how they worked and more to do with how overtuned Weaver has become as well as many other PoF elite specs were made. Look at how much of a monopoly PoF elite specs have had in sPvP over this span of 3 years, with some obvious exceptions, one of them being Renegade. Mirage being chief among them as it held a monopoly on both Power and Condi builds, regardless of your feelings or others ideas on how hard Mirage has had it over these years there was literally no reason to take Core or Chrono over it because just like every other PoF spec it was horrendously overtuned. The issue also lies in some fundamental issues with Conquest as a game mode and how it functions, as well as Solo/Duo Queue also being a fundamental problem with Ranked but that is an entirely different discussion and not something to dive deep into here.

Yeah but such comparisions between classes do not always make sense. Ofc adding a 3-4s invuln without skill lock out to everything a class like Warrior already has, a class that has already insane stat advantage compared to other classes, is facetanky as hell even on glassy speced builds or has still very high dmg on tanky speced builds, has a lot of other out of jail cards etc. would be a bad idea. Just like there are reasons current Warrior specs don't have access to teleports and stealth. There is a reason skills in core game were designed differently and why Engi, Guards and Warriors (classes with simply higher base defense and enough other stuff instead) have different invuln skills than Ele or Mesmer. Mesmer i would take out of this completely anyway, because it is not a just click a button for 4s invuln skill, it consumes all active class resources aside from the cd itself (the skill would cost way too much for the reward it gives when locking out of skills, it would even punish the Mesmer for collecting too many clones for a longer invuln, totally unlogic) and Mesmers are (same as FA Ele just on all builds) from the basic class mechanic build around comboing with instant shatters and cover casts with invuln. It would not make sense and would not be fair to treat their invuln skills like Warriors or Engis invuln skills (for all the bunker Ele specs it might be acceptable but not for glassy Ele specs like FA, a build that is like Mesmer build around comboing with instant stuff and cover casts with invuln. That is why Ele compared to Warrior also has blocks during the Ele can still cast other skills).

Also other invuln skills have other rewards in addition to the invuln. Some are also stunbreaker, some reset other important skills (f skills on Guard). There is no logic behind making all invuln skills the same when classes are differently designed what creates the need for different designed invuln skills, classes have different need of using invuln time for other actions and when the invuln skills itself are not the same (as said other invuln skills have addition rewards). Mesmer once again would be doomed the most by this change. 1. the invuln skill doesn't have addition rewards (no stunbreak, no reset of other skills) and it has already double costs by cd itself and consuming all active class resources in addition. And it would be totally contrary to the class shatter mechanic, Mesmer would be clunky as hell. Maybe even unplayable on glassy specs, just like FA Ele because it contradicts the whole playstyle of the build/ class.

Currently it seems the balance philosophy it to tar all with the same brush. To treat different stuff not different and even try to make different stuff equal without them being equal by basic nature (means there are reasons they are different and should stay different). Doesn't always make sense. Some stuff the origin def team did during creating and balancing the core game rly makes sense and should be retained for several reasons.

The philosophy they used in using a wide brush to go over everything with the same changes was meant to establish a base to work from. They even say in this very thread that was the intent, so that they can use it as a point so make iterative changes on based on circumstances and how things might change when the update does hit. Thats likely why they didn't give Distortion the same treatment because of how it works but it could still potentially become a problem but we'll just have to wait and see.

Its possible they do need to add an additional benefit to Obsidian Flesh but currently, even with the change that locks skills, it is still the shortest cooldown invuln skill in the game. When traited its a low 40 second cooldown compared to the 50, 60 and even over 90 second cooldowns other true invuln skills have. I understand Ele is typically seen as squishier than some of the other classes but it was essentially something that allowed things like Weaver to abuse evades and other defenses while running very high damage stats and being able to quite literally just attack people while they are completely immune to everything. Sure it wasn't a problem back in the Core days, but things are very different now and Weaver especially can abuse it.

Link to post
Share on other sites

@KryTiKaL.3125 said:

@bravan.3876 said:You rly should consider to rethink balance planes about Obsidian Flesh on Ele

Thx bravan for mentioning OBSIDIAN FLESH.Nerfing this skill was intended to reduce tankyness of weaver. But as many weavers didnt even use focus, they will be able to compensate this change and still be viable in the future.For all core eles and tempests its the end. Obsidian Flesh is the one and only, most essential, indispensable defensive skill for them. Core ele and tempest were the weakest specs in PvP the last years, and the plan to nerf Obsidian Flesh means to bring them down from useless to absolutely useless.Playing tempest with a damage build (sage amulet/fire-stone traitline) I made it even up to P2 a few times (when lucky with matchmaking), but realistically P1 was the maximum possible to achieve the last seasons. There had been just a few core ele and tempest specialists left in PvP, but if this change on Obsidian Flesh should be realised, there will be non of them anymore. In the name of balance and diversity : DONT NERF OBSIDIAN FLESH !As there are not many playing core ele or tempest, there is also no lobby, no major feedback for them. Thats why I am happy about everybody who puts his finger on that problem. So thx again bravan^^

Except the problem with Obsidian Flesh was that it was one of the only
true
invuln skills (things like Elixir S, Renewed Focus, skills like that) that allowed the character to be invulnerable
and
use all of their skills at the same time. Distortion is another one and I think that needs to get looked at as well and potentially get the same treatment considering the duration you can stack on it being pretty similar in length.

Now I know Endure Pain and Signet of Stone will get tossed into this particular discussion but what many people seem to forget is that Endure Pain and Signet of Stone only negate power damage and
thats it
. Conditions can still be applied and deal damage and CC effects can also still be applied. Which means you can still successfully lock down someone using Endure Pain or Signet of Stone for its duration whereas with other
true
invuln skills this was not possible and Obsidian Flesh just essentially gave the Ele free opportunities for damage. Obsidian Flesh essentially got the benefit of both worlds, the ability to still use skills as well as be completely immune to literally
everything
for 4 seconds.

As for Tempest and Ele becoming "absolutely useless" in sPvP I honestly think that has less to do with how they worked and more to do with how overtuned Weaver has become as well as many other PoF elite specs were made. Look at how much of a monopoly PoF elite specs have had in sPvP over this span of 3 years, with some obvious exceptions, one of them being Renegade. Mirage being chief among them as it held a monopoly on both Power and Condi builds, regardless of your feelings or others ideas on how hard Mirage has had it over these years there was literally no reason to take Core or Chrono over it because just like every other PoF spec it was horrendously overtuned. The issue also lies in some fundamental issues with Conquest as a game mode and how it functions, as well as Solo/Duo Queue also being a fundamental problem with Ranked but that is an entirely different discussion and not something to dive deep into here.

Yeah but such comparisions between classes do not always make sense. Ofc adding a 3-4s invuln without skill lock out to everything a class like Warrior already has, a class that has already insane stat advantage compared to other classes, is facetanky as hell even on glassy speced builds or has still very high dmg on tanky speced builds, has a lot of other out of jail cards etc. would be a bad idea. Just like there are reasons current Warrior specs don't have access to teleports and stealth. There is a reason skills in core game were designed differently and why Engi, Guards and Warriors (classes with simply higher base defense and enough other stuff instead) have different invuln skills than Ele or Mesmer. Mesmer i would take out of this completely anyway, because it is not a just click a button for 4s invuln skill, it consumes all active class resources aside from the cd itself (the skill would cost way too much for the reward it gives when locking out of skills, it would even punish the Mesmer for collecting too many clones for a longer invuln, totally unlogic) and Mesmers are (same as FA Ele just on all builds) from the basic class mechanic build around comboing with instant shatters and cover casts with invuln. It would not make sense and would not be fair to treat their invuln skills like Warriors or Engis invuln skills (for all the bunker Ele specs it might be acceptable but not for glassy Ele specs like FA, a build that is like Mesmer build around comboing with instant stuff and cover casts with invuln. That is why Ele compared to Warrior also has blocks during the Ele can still cast other skills).

Also other invuln skills have other rewards in addition to the invuln. Some are also stunbreaker, some reset other important skills (f skills on Guard). There is no logic behind making all invuln skills the same when classes are differently designed what creates the need for different designed invuln skills, classes have different need of using invuln time for other actions and when the invuln skills itself are not the same (as said other invuln skills have addition rewards). Mesmer once again would be doomed the most by this change. 1. the invuln skill doesn't have addition rewards (no stunbreak, no reset of other skills) and it has already double costs by cd itself and consuming all active class resources in addition. And it would be totally contrary to the class shatter mechanic, Mesmer would be clunky as hell. Maybe even unplayable on glassy specs, just like FA Ele because it contradicts the whole playstyle of the build/ class.

Currently it seems the balance philosophy it to tar all with the same brush. To treat different stuff not different and even try to make different stuff equal without them being equal by basic nature (means there are reasons they are different and should stay different). Doesn't always make sense. Some stuff the origin def team did during creating and balancing the core game rly makes sense and should be retained for several reasons.

The philosophy they used in using a wide brush to go over everything with the same changes was meant to establish a base to work from. They even say in this very thread that was the intent, so that they can use it as a point so make iterative changes on based on circumstances and how things might change when the update does hit. Thats likely why they didn't give Distortion the same treatment because of how it works but it could still
potentially
become a problem but we'll just have to wait and see.

They can do that with dmg coefficient, with condi and boon duration etc. these are things ofc can be equally turned down and then get fine adjusted later. But atm some planned changes are compeltely unlogical and bad and make specs clunky if not unplayable by contradicting their mechanics. You can treat stuff equally that is equal, you never should treat stuff equally that is per se different and for that needs different treatment. You can treat the same what is the same type of skill or same type of effect or same type of dmg coefficient but you cannot treat different class mechanics and different skill types the same. It will destroy inherent logic that was build up by the origin def team at game release for several reasons.

Its possible they do need to add an additional benefit to Obsidian Flesh but currently, even with the change that locks skills, it is still the shortest cooldown invuln skill in the game. When traited its a low 40 second cooldown compared to the 50, 60 and even over 90 second cooldowns other true invuln skills have. I understand Ele is typically seen as squishier than some of the other classes but it was essentially something that allowed things like Weaver to abuse evades and other defenses while running very high damage stats and being able to quite literally just attack people while they are completely immune to everything. Sure it wasn't a problem back in the Core days, but things are very different now and Weaver especially can abuse it.

The only invul skill with 90s cd is an elite skill that is not locking out of actions, it just locks out of playerskills while automatically doing something (resetting very strong and long cd f-skills). Means it is not totally dead time for the Guard (he is not doomed into passivity), he is invuln and refreshes his f skill cds and he doesn't even need to do that manually, the game does it for him. That is like triple/ quad the reward from Obsidian. Engi Elixir s has a stunbreak and an additional toolbelt skill (aoe stealth) included for only 60s cd on the invuln. Neither Guard nor Engi have restrictions in the accessibility of the invuln skill (Ele needs to be on right attunement and not have Earth on cd). 50s basic cd and no skill lock out is justified in comparision (also fits the way some Ele builds are suppose to be played way better, doesn't contradict FA mechanic). Maybe better think about replacing the cd reduction trait in Earth with something else instead? FA builds don't even use Earth traitline, if anything then bunker specs only use Earth. Bunker Ele specs can be nerfed on different places to be less tanky (and i suggest to go for passive facetank sustain first before touching active defense that needs to be timed well), no need to kill the very few active defense skills glassy Ele builds have.

It is simple: If you want ppl to play less facetanky and less lame builds on a specific class, then you better do not kill these less lame and more skilled builds as a spin-off while nerfing op and braindead facetanky builds on that class (at least as long as you have other possible ways to nerf op builds without touching not op builds and in most cases you have other ways).

Link to post
Share on other sites

@KryTiKaL.3125if you wanna do blanket stuff like nerfing disort to the level of other classes make sure to go throught every mesmer ability and bring them to the same level.make sure that mesmer runs at perma 15-20 might like all other classes, make sure then heal 300k+/match passively like warrior for example.also make sure that their autoattacks hit for 3-5k for the first 2 hits and 5-8k for the third hit.doing all those things would be stupid BECOUSE mesmer has disort and blink and shatters are insta. but the moment you start messing with those advantages mesmer has, you gonna have to give mesmer same overtuned things other classes enjoy like1 insane damage basic attacks2 insane health recovery3 stupid amount of might generation4 singular skills that have potential of dealing over 20k dmg

Link to post
Share on other sites

@"shadowpass.4236" said:Also the Soulbeast tradeoff is dumb.

A similar "tradeoff" would be like removing an attunement from Weaver. You guys are just killing the fluidity of the spec and haven't even changed the pet swap trait timers to match the merge cooldown.

You mention weaver and talk about fluidity but weaver is less fluid than base ele when it comes to attunement swapping due to global cooldown on swap as well as only partial attunement. There is a reason why there have been complaint to make unravel an F5. I mean anyone could have seen this coming a mile off.

Link to post
Share on other sites

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@"shadowpass.4236" said:Also the Soulbeast tradeoff is dumb.

A similar "tradeoff" would be like removing an attunement from Weaver. You guys are just killing the fluidity of the spec and haven't even changed the pet swap trait timers to match the merge cooldown.

You mention weaver and talk about fluidity but weaver is less fluid than base ele when it comes to attunement swapping due to global cooldown on swap as well as only partial attunement. There is a reason why there have been complaint to make unravel an F5. I mean anyone could have seen this coming a mile off.

His example still makes sense, not in terms of fluid gameplay but in terms of making trade offs which delete skills/ active gameplay options from elite specs for no good reason, even though just normal nerfing/ adjusting the power lvl and cds of the elite skill ensemble that has more skills added over core would do the balance job too.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Malicious Backstab: Reduced power coefficients from 1.2/2.4 to 0.9/1.8FINALLY. granted more of a problem in wvw then here, but still. the deadeye rifle/ dagger +105%/ 70% bonus damage has no place in competitive modes, remove and replace with new functions, buff coefficients if necessary.

UnCWU92.pngkeep at it lads, we can slowly remove teef from gaem.

Link to post
Share on other sites

@bravan.3876 said:

@"shadowpass.4236" said:Also the Soulbeast tradeoff is dumb.

A similar "tradeoff" would be like removing an attunement from Weaver. You guys are just killing the fluidity of the spec and haven't even changed the pet swap trait timers to match the merge cooldown.

You mention weaver and talk about fluidity but weaver is less fluid than base ele when it comes to attunement swapping due to global cooldown on swap as well as only partial attunement. There is a reason why there have been complaint to make unravel an F5. I mean anyone could have seen this coming a mile off.

His example still makes sense, not in terms of fluid gameplay but in terms of making trade offs which delete skills/ active gameplay options from elite specs for no good reason, even though just normal nerfing/ adjusting the power lvl and cds of the elite skill ensemple that has more skills added over core would do the balance job too.

But people keep misinterpreting what a trade of is supposed to be. At a class mechanical level soul beast only gained additional functionality:Merge. Nothing was lost.

You say no good reason and they are removing options but elite specs are not supposed to be straight upgrades which, due to the lack of trade offs, a lot of then were. They were just class+. That's now mostly gone. Again, before you forget, at a class mechanical level.

Link to post
Share on other sites

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@"shadowpass.4236" said:Also the Soulbeast tradeoff is dumb.

A similar "tradeoff" would be like removing an attunement from Weaver. You guys are just killing the fluidity of the spec and haven't even changed the pet swap trait timers to match the merge cooldown.

You mention weaver and talk about fluidity but weaver is less fluid than base ele when it comes to attunement swapping due to global cooldown on swap as well as only partial attunement. There is a reason why there have been complaint to make unravel an F5. I mean anyone could have seen this coming a mile off.

His example still makes sense, not in terms of fluid gameplay but in terms of making trade offs which delete skills/ active gameplay options from elite specs for no good reason, even though just normal nerfing/ adjusting the power lvl and cds of the elite skill ensemple that has more skills added over core would do the balance job too.

But people keep misinterpreting what a trade of is supposed to be. At a class mechanical level soul beast only gained additional functionality:Merge. Nothing was lost.

You say no good reason and they are removing options but elite specs are not supposed to be straight upgrades which, due to the lack of trade offs, a lot of then were. They were just class+. That's now mostly gone. Again, before you forget, at a class mechanical level.

Wrong, Soulbeast loses pet f skills and the pet with his passive skills itself while merging already. That is already the needed trade off for Soulbeast that even adds skill ceiling by adding the decision between when to switch to merge skills and when to use the pet. You would be right if Soulbeast could use merge skills while the normal pet f skills and the pet itself are still active too. All what is needed is too reduce the overall power lvl of the Soulbeast skill ensemble (that can be done by dmg nerfs, increasing cds on single skills and removing double and triple rewards from overloaded skills). There is no need to delete parts of the mechanic itself/ delete active gameplay options to balance Soulbeast with a SECOND trade off.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I always wished I could have experienced sPvP before the powercrept, short TTK, overloaded tool tip, rapid skill spam, high visual clutter era. Like many, I was looking forward to this big shakeup and reduction in global power levels. But I just can't get excited about it or the future of sPvP when the spec I've been loyal to since I started is, without exaggeration, effectively being removed from competitive modes.

It doesn't take encyclopedic game knowledge to realize how ill-advised reducing Mirage to one dodge is. Many excellent points have already been made, by Mirage mains and non-mains alike, as to why this is so, and I will not repeat them.

If ever there was a proposed change that needs to be walked back before it happens, it's this. There have been a number of head-scratchers in the past, and they should definitely be revisited. But making Mirage the only spec in the game with half a standard endurance bar in competitive modes is an entirely different level of WTF. We're talking about a drastic change to the one and only constant across all specs and modes since the beginning (Daredevil notwithstanding): the standard two-dodge endurance bar.

Never mind how antithetical this change is to what Mirage is--its offense, defense, and basic design all revolve around Mirage Cloak, and have been allocated around this fact. Never mind how unplayable Mirage will be in competitive modes for all but the godliest players. How is one even to cycle between PvE and PvP/WvW without finding their basic combat rhythm completely upended? Much balancing effort seems to go into not making skill splits too functionally disparate across modes. What happened here? The difference between a one versus two-dodge endurance bar will be palpable, and absolutely jarring going from PvE to competitive.

There have been countless suggestions as to how to balance Mirage, any number of which would be preferable to this change. From reducing the clone cap to two, to reducing clone auto-attack and ambush damage to virtually zero (and ideally moving that damage to the player's own attacks or to shatters), it baffles me why the most draconian of all possible changes, which is all but certain to backfire if the goal is to encourage active, skillful play, is what we're faced with.

Please. Reconsider this.

Link to post
Share on other sites

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@bravan.3876 said:while merging

and outside of merging, are those pet f skills magically gone? no? ok.

No why should they? There is no need to make Rangerplayer lose all class mechanic just because Soulbeast can switch between 2 different types of class mechanics. Important is only that Soulbeast doesn't have both mechanics available at same time. Or do you want to have a Ranger suddently have no f skill and no pet at all anymore after each merge for a specific time? No other elite is forced to lose all class mechanic for a specific time. That makes no sense.

Link to post
Share on other sites

@bravan.3876 said:

@"shadowpass.4236" said:Also the Soulbeast tradeoff is dumb.

A similar "tradeoff" would be like removing an attunement from Weaver. You guys are just killing the fluidity of the spec and haven't even changed the pet swap trait timers to match the merge cooldown.

You mention weaver and talk about fluidity but weaver is less fluid than base ele when it comes to attunement swapping due to global cooldown on swap as well as only partial attunement. There is a reason why there have been complaint to make unravel an F5. I mean anyone could have seen this coming a mile off.

His example still makes sense, not in terms of fluid gameplay but in terms of making trade offs which delete skills/ active gameplay options from elite specs for no good reason, even though just normal nerfing/ adjusting the power lvl and cds of the elite skill ensemple that has more skills added over core would do the balance job too.

But people keep misinterpreting what a trade of is supposed to be. At a class mechanical level soul beast only gained additional functionality:Merge. Nothing was lost.

You say no good reason and they are removing options but elite specs are not supposed to be straight upgrades which, due to the lack of trade offs, a lot of then were. They were just class+. That's now mostly gone. Again, before you forget, at a class mechanical level.

Wrong, Soulbeast loses pet f skills and the pet with his passive skills itself while merging already. That is already the needed trade off for Soulbeast that even adds skill ceiling by adding the decision between when to switch to merge skills and when to use the pet.

I don't know if you are missing the point on purpose out of sheer anger at what's happening but you're getting bogged down in effectivenes and playstyle again instead of what is actually there at the class mechanical level.

Ranger class mechanic: 2 pets.Soulbeast class mechanic: 2 pets and merge.

Soul beast has an opportunity cost for merging with the pet as you say. You gain it's stats/skills but lose it etc. But on the level of the mechanic itself it was just a pure functionality gain. This is why it's going down to one pet and merge.

Soulbeast has a playstyle tradeoff but not a class mechanical one. For what the trade offs are supposed to be it didn't have one now it's getting one.

Link to post
Share on other sites

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@"shadowpass.4236" said:Also the Soulbeast tradeoff is dumb.

A similar "tradeoff" would be like removing an attunement from Weaver. You guys are just killing the fluidity of the spec and haven't even changed the pet swap trait timers to match the merge cooldown.

You mention weaver and talk about fluidity but weaver is less fluid than base ele when it comes to attunement swapping due to global cooldown on swap as well as only partial attunement. There is a reason why there have been complaint to make unravel an F5. I mean anyone could have seen this coming a mile off.

His example still makes sense, not in terms of fluid gameplay but in terms of making trade offs which delete skills/ active gameplay options from elite specs for no good reason, even though just normal nerfing/ adjusting the power lvl and cds of the elite skill ensemple that has more skills added over core would do the balance job too.

But people keep misinterpreting what a trade of is supposed to be. At a class mechanical level soul beast only gained additional functionality:Merge. Nothing was lost.

You say no good reason and they are removing options but elite specs are not supposed to be straight upgrades which, due to the lack of trade offs, a lot of then were. They were just class+. That's now mostly gone. Again, before you forget, at a class mechanical level.

Wrong, Soulbeast loses pet f skills and the pet with his passive skills itself while merging already. That is already the needed trade off for Soulbeast that even adds skill ceiling by adding the decision between when to switch to merge skills and when to use the pet.

I don't know if you are missing the point on purpose out of sheer anger at what's happening but you're getting bogged down in effectivenes and playstyle again instead of what is actually there at the class mechanical level.

Ranger class mechanic: 2 pets.Soulbeast class mechanic: 2 pets and merge.

Soul beast has an opportunity cost for merging with the pet as you say. You gain it's stats/skills but lose it etc. But on the level of the mechanic itself it was just a pure functionality gain. This is why it's going down to one pet and merge.

Soulbeast has a playstyle tradeoff but not a class mechanical one. For what the trade offs are supposed to be it didn't have one now it's getting one.

Firebrands, Weavers, and Holosmiths don't have tradeoffs.

All 3 of those builds are way stronger than Soulbeast ever was and yet Soulbeast is losing a huge chunk of it's spec/playstyle.

Soulbeast should get a 20% pet stat reduction imo, same as Druid.

Link to post
Share on other sites

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:Also the Soulbeast tradeoff is dumb.

A similar "tradeoff" would be like removing an attunement from Weaver. You guys are just killing the fluidity of the spec and haven't even changed the pet swap trait timers to match the merge cooldown.

You mention weaver and talk about fluidity but weaver is less fluid than base ele when it comes to attunement swapping due to global cooldown on swap as well as only partial attunement. There is a reason why there have been complaint to make unravel an F5. I mean anyone could have seen this coming a mile off.

His example still makes sense, not in terms of fluid gameplay but in terms of making trade offs which delete skills/ active gameplay options from elite specs for no good reason, even though just normal nerfing/ adjusting the power lvl and cds of the elite skill ensemple that has more skills added over core would do the balance job too.

But people keep misinterpreting what a trade of is supposed to be. At a class mechanical level soul beast only gained additional functionality:Merge. Nothing was lost.

You say no good reason and they are removing options but elite specs are not supposed to be straight upgrades which, due to the lack of trade offs, a lot of then were. They were just class+. That's now mostly gone. Again, before you forget, at a class mechanical level.

Wrong, Soulbeast loses pet f skills and the pet with his passive skills itself while merging already. That is already the needed trade off for Soulbeast that even adds skill ceiling by adding the decision between when to switch to merge skills and when to use the pet.

I don't know if you are missing the point on purpose out of sheer anger at what's happening but you're getting bogged down in effectivenes and playstyle again instead of what is actually there at the class mechanical level.

Ranger class mechanic: 2 pets.Soulbeast class mechanic: 2 pets and merge.

Soul beast has an opportunity cost for merging with the pet as you say. You gain it's stats/skills but lose it etc. But on the level of the mechanic itself it was just a pure functionality gain. This is why it's going down to one pet and merge.

Soulbeast has a playstyle tradeoff but not a class mechanical one. For what the trade offs are supposed to be it didn't have one now it's getting one.

Firebrands, Weavers, and Holosmiths don't have tradeoffs.

Yes they do. Firebrand loses their old virtues for new ones. Weavers lose the ability to single attune for being able to double attune. Holo lose their F5 to get photon forge.

The tradeoff aren't about effectiveness but about the class mechanic itself. You are saying they don't have one because the class mechanic is stronger or the build itself is strong. That's a balance issue not anything to do with the spec having a tradeoff or not.

With respect to their class mechanic soulbeast didn't lose anything to gain beast mode. Mechanically and thematically it makes sense that soul beast would be reduced to one pet. Again, very unsure how people didn't see this coming when Anet said they were looking to add tradeoffs to the specs that didn't have them.

Link to post
Share on other sites

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:Also the Soulbeast tradeoff is dumb.

A similar "tradeoff" would be like removing an attunement from Weaver. You guys are just killing the fluidity of the spec and haven't even changed the pet swap trait timers to match the merge cooldown.

You mention weaver and talk about fluidity but weaver is less fluid than base ele when it comes to attunement swapping due to global cooldown on swap as well as only partial attunement. There is a reason why there have been complaint to make unravel an F5. I mean anyone could have seen this coming a mile off.

His example still makes sense, not in terms of fluid gameplay but in terms of making trade offs which delete skills/ active gameplay options from elite specs for no good reason, even though just normal nerfing/ adjusting the power lvl and cds of the elite skill ensemple that has more skills added over core would do the balance job too.

But people keep misinterpreting what a trade of is supposed to be. At a class mechanical level soul beast only gained additional functionality:Merge. Nothing was lost.

You say no good reason and they are removing options but elite specs are not supposed to be straight upgrades which, due to the lack of trade offs, a lot of then were. They were just class+. That's now mostly gone. Again, before you forget, at a class mechanical level.

Wrong, Soulbeast loses pet f skills and the pet with his passive skills itself while merging already. That is already the needed trade off for Soulbeast that even adds skill ceiling by adding the decision between when to switch to merge skills and when to use the pet.

I don't know if you are missing the point on purpose out of sheer anger at what's happening but you're getting bogged down in effectivenes and playstyle again instead of what is actually there at the class mechanical level.

Ranger class mechanic: 2 pets.Soulbeast class mechanic: 2 pets and merge.

Soul beast has an opportunity cost for merging with the pet as you say. You gain it's stats/skills but lose it etc. But on the level of the mechanic itself it was just a pure functionality gain. This is why it's going down to one pet and merge.

Soulbeast has a playstyle tradeoff but not a class mechanical one. For what the trade offs are supposed to be it didn't have one now it's getting one.

Firebrands, Weavers, and Holosmiths don't have tradeoffs.

Yes they do. Firebrand loses their old virtues for new ones. Weavers lose the ability to single attune for being able to double attune. Holo lose their F5 to get photon forge.

The tradeoff aren't about effectiveness but about the class mechanic itself. You are saying they don't have one because the class mechanic is stronger or the build itself is strong. That's a balance issue not anything to do with the spec having a tradeoff or not.

With respect to their class mechanic soulbeast didn't lose anything to gain beast mode. Mechanically and thematically it makes sense that soul beast would be reduced to one pet. Again, very unsure how people didn't see this coming when Anet said they were looking to add tradeoffs to the specs that didn't have them.

??

The tomes are literally infinitely better than core virtues.

Weavers can still single attune.

Losing a single f5 skill is not a tradeoff.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...