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@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:Also the Soulbeast tradeoff is dumb.

A similar "tradeoff" would be like removing an attunement from Weaver. You guys are just killing the fluidity of the spec and haven't even changed the pet swap trait timers to match the merge cooldown.

You mention weaver and talk about fluidity but weaver is less fluid than base ele when it comes to attunement swapping due to global cooldown on swap as well as only partial attunement. There is a reason why there have been complaint to make unravel an F5. I mean anyone could have seen this coming a mile off.

His example still makes sense, not in terms of fluid gameplay but in terms of making trade offs which delete skills/ active gameplay options from elite specs for no good reason, even though just normal nerfing/ adjusting the power lvl and cds of the elite skill ensemple that has more skills added over core would do the balance job too.

But people keep misinterpreting what a trade of is supposed to be. At a class mechanical level soul beast only gained additional functionality:Merge. Nothing was lost.

You say no good reason and they are removing options but elite specs are not supposed to be straight upgrades which, due to the lack of trade offs, a lot of then were. They were just class+. That's now mostly gone. Again, before you forget, at a class mechanical level.

Wrong, Soulbeast loses pet f skills and the pet with his passive skills itself while merging already. That is already the needed trade off for Soulbeast that even adds skill ceiling by adding the decision between when to switch to merge skills and when to use the pet.

I don't know if you are missing the point on purpose out of sheer anger at what's happening but you're getting bogged down in effectivenes and playstyle again instead of what is actually there at the class mechanical level.

Ranger class mechanic: 2 pets.Soulbeast class mechanic: 2 pets and merge.

Soul beast has an opportunity cost for merging with the pet as you say. You gain it's stats/skills but lose it etc. But on the level of the mechanic itself it was just a pure functionality gain. This is why it's going down to one pet and merge.

Soulbeast has a playstyle tradeoff but not a class mechanical one. For what the trade offs are supposed to be it didn't have one now it's getting one.

Firebrands, Weavers, and Holosmiths don't have tradeoffs.

Yes they do. Firebrand loses their old virtues for new ones. Weavers lose the ability to single attune for being able to double attune. Holo lose their F5 to get photon forge.

The tradeoff aren't about effectiveness but about the class mechanic itself. You are saying they don't have one because the class mechanic is stronger or the build itself is strong. That's a balance issue not anything to do with the spec having a tradeoff or not.

With respect to their class mechanic soulbeast didn't lose anything to gain beast mode. Mechanically and thematically it makes sense that soul beast would be reduced to one pet. Again, very unsure how people didn't see this coming when Anet said they were looking to add tradeoffs to the specs that didn't have them.

Soulbeast lose all pet skills while being merged. That is a directly to the elite pointed trade off. That Soulbeast still has more buttons compared to core just like FB btw (more skills that can be chained) by being able to switch between 2 different mechanics (it is a SWITCH not an on top addition) has to be adjusted by lowering the overall power lvl of the more button ensemble. That can be done by normal nerfs and not by deleting parts of the elite mechanic itself.

It's not about having more buttons and no part of the elite mechanic is being removed. It's part of all of core that is being removed to make room for the elite mechanic, like every other spec in the game.

Why is it so hard to understand losing skills when merged is not s tradeoff when you have
just gained the option to merge
. At a mechanical level it's s pure gain and now it's not. For the last time :

Core: 2 pets - core mechanic.Slb now: 2 pets and beat mode - pure gain since you still have two pets and a new mode
regardless of if you lose your pet and it's skills during merge
it's the fact nothing is lost to gain the new mode.Slb then: 1 pet and beast mode - something had been lost to gain beast mode. A trade off at a class mechanical level.

It's really so easy to understand.

I am going to give up though since it is clear now you don't really understand what Anet meant by tradeoffs at all.

I think you don't understand and also never played Soulbeast. The trade off is directly pointed to have a decision making about choosing when to use merge skills and when to use pet skills. You don't have both at same time. This is a trade off and when you cannot understand this basic thing than i am the one giving up trying to explain the obvious. The only on top thing Soulbeast factual got over core is some more skills they can chain AFTER ANOTHER, while the fact that they can SWITCH between 2 different mechanics is already trade offed by the need to CHOOSE which one to use at a specific situation in a fight and not being able to use both AT SAME TIME. To make Soulbeast not overperform and for that not being an upgrade compared to core you only need to nerf the power lvl of the more button skill ensemble from Soulbeast to the lower power lvl from the core skill ensemble with less available buttons (what isn't even remarkable lower, thats why there are very strong core Ranger builds completely equally alternatives to Soulbeast and viable on same lvl as Soulbeast). Because more buttons to CHAIN AFTER ANOTHER is all what Soulbeats got over core what was not trade offed already by the inherent trade off with the need to CHOOSE BETWEEN 2 different mechanics which EXCLUDE each other.

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@bravan.3876 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:Also the Soulbeast tradeoff is dumb.

A similar "tradeoff" would be like removing an attunement from Weaver. You guys are just killing the fluidity of the spec and haven't even changed the pet swap trait timers to match the merge cooldown.

You mention weaver and talk about fluidity but weaver is less fluid than base ele when it comes to attunement swapping due to global cooldown on swap as well as only partial attunement. There is a reason why there have been complaint to make unravel an F5. I mean anyone could have seen this coming a mile off.

His example still makes sense, not in terms of fluid gameplay but in terms of making trade offs which delete skills/ active gameplay options from elite specs for no good reason, even though just normal nerfing/ adjusting the power lvl and cds of the elite skill ensemple that has more skills added over core would do the balance job too.

But people keep misinterpreting what a trade of is supposed to be. At a class mechanical level soul beast only gained additional functionality:Merge. Nothing was lost.

You say no good reason and they are removing options but elite specs are not supposed to be straight upgrades which, due to the lack of trade offs, a lot of then were. They were just class+. That's now mostly gone. Again, before you forget, at a class mechanical level.

Wrong, Soulbeast loses pet f skills and the pet with his passive skills itself while merging already. That is already the needed trade off for Soulbeast that even adds skill ceiling by adding the decision between when to switch to merge skills and when to use the pet.

I don't know if you are missing the point on purpose out of sheer anger at what's happening but you're getting bogged down in effectivenes and playstyle again instead of what is actually there at the class mechanical level.

Ranger class mechanic: 2 pets.Soulbeast class mechanic: 2 pets and merge.

Soul beast has an opportunity cost for merging with the pet as you say. You gain it's stats/skills but lose it etc. But on the level of the mechanic itself it was just a pure functionality gain. This is why it's going down to one pet and merge.

Soulbeast has a playstyle tradeoff but not a class mechanical one. For what the trade offs are supposed to be it didn't have one now it's getting one.

Firebrands, Weavers, and Holosmiths don't have tradeoffs.

Yes they do. Firebrand loses their old virtues for new ones. Weavers lose the ability to single attune for being able to double attune. Holo lose their F5 to get photon forge.

The tradeoff aren't about effectiveness but about the class mechanic itself. You are saying they don't have one because the class mechanic is stronger or the build itself is strong. That's a balance issue not anything to do with the spec having a tradeoff or not.

With respect to their class mechanic soulbeast didn't lose anything to gain beast mode. Mechanically and thematically it makes sense that soul beast would be reduced to one pet. Again, very unsure how people didn't see this coming when Anet said they were looking to add tradeoffs to the specs that didn't have them.

Soulbeast lose all pet skills while being merged. That is a directly to the elite pointed trade off. That Soulbeast still has more buttons compared to core just like FB btw (more skills that can be chained) by being able to switch between 2 different mechanics (it is a SWITCH not an on top addition) has to be adjusted by lowering the overall power lvl of the more button ensemble. That can be done by normal nerfs and not by deleting parts of the elite mechanic itself.

It's not about having more buttons and no part of the elite mechanic is being removed. It's part of all of core that is being removed to make room for the elite mechanic, like every other spec in the game.

Why is it so hard to understand losing skills when merged is not s tradeoff when you have
just gained the option to merge
. At a mechanical level it's s pure gain and now it's not. For the last time :

Core: 2 pets - core mechanic.Slb now: 2 pets and beat mode - pure gain since you still have two pets and a new mode
regardless of if you lose your pet and it's skills during merge
it's the fact nothing is lost to gain the new mode.Slb then: 1 pet and beast mode - something had been lost to gain beast mode. A trade off at a class mechanical level.

It's really so easy to understand.

I am going to give up though since it is clear now you don't really understand what Anet meant by tradeoffs at all.

I think you don't understand and also never played Soulbeast. The trade off is directly pointed to have a decision making about choosing when to use merge skills and when to use pet skills. You don't have both at same time. This is a trade off and when you cannot understand this basic thing than i am the one giving up trying to explain the obvious. The only on top thing Soulbeast factual got over core is some more skills they can chain AFTER ANOTHER, while the fact that they can SWITCH between 2 different mechanics is already trade offed by the need to CHOOSE which one to use at a specific situation in a fight and not being able to use both AT SAME TIME. To make Soulbeast not overperform and for that not being an upgrade compared to core you only need to nerf the power lvl of the more button skill ensemble from Soulbeast to the lower power lvl from the core skill ensemble with less available buttons (what isn't even remarkable lower, thats why there are very strong core Ranger builds completely equally alternatives to Soulbeast and viable on same lvl as Soulbeast). Because more buttons to CHAIN AFTER ANOTHER is all what Soulbeats got over core what was not trade offed already by the inherent trade off with the need to CHOOSE BETWEEN 2 different mechanics which EXCLUDE each other.

It shows in ur first paragraph that u have zero clue the difference of a trade off vs just more options. With soulbeast u GET THE ADDED OPTION to merge and gain 3 extra pet skills AND extra stats if the situation calls for it OR stay un merged or un merge if merged to GAIN access to the ai pet and it's one pet skill. The difference is with a real trade of that choice would not be there. A real trade off would have been u can swap while merged as a soulbeast between two pets but cant un merge.It's not a trade off when u can freely swap between the two whenever(on cd of course). Ur acting like it's a trade off because u dont have the 3 pet skills and stat bonus as a soulbeast while still retaining the ai pet and its skill which is wrong.

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@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:Also the Soulbeast tradeoff is dumb.

A similar "tradeoff" would be like removing an attunement from Weaver. You guys are just killing the fluidity of the spec and haven't even changed the pet swap trait timers to match the merge cooldown.

You mention weaver and talk about fluidity but weaver is less fluid than base ele when it comes to attunement swapping due to global cooldown on swap as well as only partial attunement. There is a reason why there have been complaint to make unravel an F5. I mean anyone could have seen this coming a mile off.

His example still makes sense, not in terms of fluid gameplay but in terms of making trade offs which delete skills/ active gameplay options from elite specs for no good reason, even though just normal nerfing/ adjusting the power lvl and cds of the elite skill ensemple that has more skills added over core would do the balance job too.

But people keep misinterpreting what a trade of is supposed to be. At a class mechanical level soul beast only gained additional functionality:Merge. Nothing was lost.

You say no good reason and they are removing options but elite specs are not supposed to be straight upgrades which, due to the lack of trade offs, a lot of then were. They were just class+. That's now mostly gone. Again, before you forget, at a class mechanical level.

Wrong, Soulbeast loses pet f skills and the pet with his passive skills itself while merging already. That is already the needed trade off for Soulbeast that even adds skill ceiling by adding the decision between when to switch to merge skills and when to use the pet.

I don't know if you are missing the point on purpose out of sheer anger at what's happening but you're getting bogged down in effectivenes and playstyle again instead of what is actually there at the class mechanical level.

Ranger class mechanic: 2 pets.Soulbeast class mechanic: 2 pets and merge.

Soul beast has an opportunity cost for merging with the pet as you say. You gain it's stats/skills but lose it etc. But on the level of the mechanic itself it was just a pure functionality gain. This is why it's going down to one pet and merge.

Soulbeast has a playstyle tradeoff but not a class mechanical one. For what the trade offs are supposed to be it didn't have one now it's getting one.

Firebrands, Weavers, and Holosmiths don't have tradeoffs.

Yes they do. Firebrand loses their old virtues for new ones. Weavers lose the ability to single attune for being able to double attune. Holo lose their F5 to get photon forge.

The tradeoff aren't about effectiveness but about the class mechanic itself. You are saying they don't have one because the class mechanic is stronger or the build itself is strong. That's a balance issue not anything to do with the spec having a tradeoff or not.

With respect to their class mechanic soulbeast didn't lose anything to gain beast mode. Mechanically and thematically it makes sense that soul beast would be reduced to one pet. Again, very unsure how people didn't see this coming when Anet said they were looking to add tradeoffs to the specs that didn't have them.

Soulbeast lose all pet skills while being merged. That is a directly to the elite pointed trade off. That Soulbeast still has more buttons compared to core just like FB btw (more skills that can be chained) by being able to switch between 2 different mechanics (it is a SWITCH not an on top addition) has to be adjusted by lowering the overall power lvl of the more button ensemble. That can be done by normal nerfs and not by deleting parts of the elite mechanic itself.

It's not about having more buttons and no part of the elite mechanic is being removed. It's part of all of core that is being removed to make room for the elite mechanic, like every other spec in the game.

Why is it so hard to understand losing skills when merged is not s tradeoff when you have
just gained the option to merge
. At a mechanical level it's s pure gain and now it's not. For the last time :

Core: 2 pets - core mechanic.Slb now: 2 pets and beat mode - pure gain since you still have two pets and a new mode
regardless of if you lose your pet and it's skills during merge
it's the fact nothing is lost to gain the new mode.Slb then: 1 pet and beast mode - something had been lost to gain beast mode. A trade off at a class mechanical level.

It's really so easy to understand.

I am going to give up though since it is clear now you don't really understand what Anet meant by tradeoffs at all.

I think you don't understand and also never played Soulbeast. The trade off is directly pointed to have a decision making about choosing when to use merge skills and when to use pet skills. You don't have both at same time. This is a trade off and when you cannot understand this basic thing than i am the one giving up trying to explain the obvious. The only on top thing Soulbeast factual got over core is some more skills they can chain AFTER ANOTHER, while the fact that they can SWITCH between 2 different mechanics is already trade offed by the need to CHOOSE which one to use at a specific situation in a fight and not being able to use both AT SAME TIME. To make Soulbeast not overperform and for that not being an upgrade compared to core you only need to nerf the power lvl of the more button skill ensemble from Soulbeast to the lower power lvl from the core skill ensemble with less available buttons (what isn't even remarkable lower, thats why there are very strong core Ranger builds completely equally alternatives to Soulbeast and viable on same lvl as Soulbeast). Because more buttons to CHAIN AFTER ANOTHER is all what Soulbeats got over core what was not trade offed already by the inherent trade off with the need to CHOOSE BETWEEN 2 different mechanics which EXCLUDE each other.

It shows in ur first paragraph that u have zero clue the difference of a trade off vs just more options. With soulbeast u GET THE ADDED OPTION to merge and gain 3 extra pet skills AND extra stats if the situation calls for it OR stay un merged or un merge if merged to GAIN access to the ai pet and it's one pet skill. The difference is with a real trade of that choice would not be there. A real trade off would have been u can swap while merged as a soulbeast between two pets but cant un merge.It's not a trade off when u can freely swap between the two whenever(on cd of course). Ur acting like it's a trade off because u dont have the 3 pet skills and stat bonus as a soulbeast while still retaining the ai pet and its skill which is wrong.

And as trade off you LOSE the whole pet mechanic while merging. Simple. Core ranger has 100% pet uptime, Soulbeast has 50% pet uptime and 50% merge skills uptime. Seems not like an upgrade just like a switch compared to core in terms of mechanic. it balance out itself. the only thing that is not balanced out inherently is that Soulbeast gets more skills available and that can be solved with normal nerfing power lvl of skill ensembles.

As said additional stat boni for merging are not necessary and can be removed just as the ability to revive pets with merging. Soulbeast can get stat penalty on pets and stat penalty when merged, that would be no problem and would be just the same than i suggested by nerfing merge and pet skills (nerf dmg, delete double/ triple rewards, higher cds on individual skills).

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@bravan.3876 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:Also the Soulbeast tradeoff is dumb.

A similar "tradeoff" would be like removing an attunement from Weaver. You guys are just killing the fluidity of the spec and haven't even changed the pet swap trait timers to match the merge cooldown.

You mention weaver and talk about fluidity but weaver is less fluid than base ele when it comes to attunement swapping due to global cooldown on swap as well as only partial attunement. There is a reason why there have been complaint to make unravel an F5. I mean anyone could have seen this coming a mile off.

His example still makes sense, not in terms of fluid gameplay but in terms of making trade offs which delete skills/ active gameplay options from elite specs for no good reason, even though just normal nerfing/ adjusting the power lvl and cds of the elite skill ensemple that has more skills added over core would do the balance job too.

But people keep misinterpreting what a trade of is supposed to be. At a class mechanical level soul beast only gained additional functionality:Merge. Nothing was lost.

You say no good reason and they are removing options but elite specs are not supposed to be straight upgrades which, due to the lack of trade offs, a lot of then were. They were just class+. That's now mostly gone. Again, before you forget, at a class mechanical level.

Wrong, Soulbeast loses pet f skills and the pet with his passive skills itself while merging already. That is already the needed trade off for Soulbeast that even adds skill ceiling by adding the decision between when to switch to merge skills and when to use the pet.

I don't know if you are missing the point on purpose out of sheer anger at what's happening but you're getting bogged down in effectivenes and playstyle again instead of what is actually there at the class mechanical level.

Ranger class mechanic: 2 pets.Soulbeast class mechanic: 2 pets and merge.

Soul beast has an opportunity cost for merging with the pet as you say. You gain it's stats/skills but lose it etc. But on the level of the mechanic itself it was just a pure functionality gain. This is why it's going down to one pet and merge.

Soulbeast has a playstyle tradeoff but not a class mechanical one. For what the trade offs are supposed to be it didn't have one now it's getting one.

Firebrands, Weavers, and Holosmiths don't have tradeoffs.

Yes they do. Firebrand loses their old virtues for new ones. Weavers lose the ability to single attune for being able to double attune. Holo lose their F5 to get photon forge.

The tradeoff aren't about effectiveness but about the class mechanic itself. You are saying they don't have one because the class mechanic is stronger or the build itself is strong. That's a balance issue not anything to do with the spec having a tradeoff or not.

With respect to their class mechanic soulbeast didn't lose anything to gain beast mode. Mechanically and thematically it makes sense that soul beast would be reduced to one pet. Again, very unsure how people didn't see this coming when Anet said they were looking to add tradeoffs to the specs that didn't have them.

Soulbeast lose all pet skills while being merged. That is a directly to the elite pointed trade off. That Soulbeast still has more buttons compared to core just like FB btw (more skills that can be chained) by being able to switch between 2 different mechanics (it is a SWITCH not an on top addition) has to be adjusted by lowering the overall power lvl of the more button ensemble. That can be done by normal nerfs and not by deleting parts of the elite mechanic itself.

It's not about having more buttons and no part of the elite mechanic is being removed. It's part of all of core that is being removed to make room for the elite mechanic, like every other spec in the game.

Why is it so hard to understand losing skills when merged is not s tradeoff when you have
just gained the option to merge
. At a mechanical level it's s pure gain and now it's not. For the last time :

Core: 2 pets - core mechanic.Slb now: 2 pets and beat mode - pure gain since you still have two pets and a new mode
regardless of if you lose your pet and it's skills during merge
it's the fact nothing is lost to gain the new mode.Slb then: 1 pet and beast mode - something had been lost to gain beast mode. A trade off at a class mechanical level.

It's really so easy to understand.

I am going to give up though since it is clear now you don't really understand what Anet meant by tradeoffs at all.

I think you don't understand and also never played Soulbeast. The trade off is directly pointed to have a decision making about choosing when to use merge skills and when to use pet skills. You don't have both at same time. This is a trade off and when you cannot understand this basic thing than i am the one giving up trying to explain the obvious. The only on top thing Soulbeast factual got over core is some more skills they can chain AFTER ANOTHER, while the fact that they can SWITCH between 2 different mechanics is already trade offed by the need to CHOOSE which one to use at a specific situation in a fight and not being able to use both AT SAME TIME. To make Soulbeast not overperform and for that not being an upgrade compared to core you only need to nerf the power lvl of the more button skill ensemble from Soulbeast to the lower power lvl from the core skill ensemble with less available buttons (what isn't even remarkable lower, thats why there are very strong core Ranger builds completely equally alternatives to Soulbeast and viable on same lvl as Soulbeast). Because more buttons to CHAIN AFTER ANOTHER is all what Soulbeats got over core what was not trade offed already by the inherent trade off with the need to CHOOSE BETWEEN 2 different mechanics which EXCLUDE each other.

It shows in ur first paragraph that u have zero clue the difference of a trade off vs just more options. With soulbeast u GET THE ADDED OPTION to merge and gain 3 extra pet skills AND extra stats if the situation calls for it OR stay un merged or un merge if merged to GAIN access to the ai pet and it's one pet skill. The difference is with a real trade of that choice would not be there. A real trade off would have been u can swap while merged as a soulbeast between two pets but cant un merge.It's not a trade off when u can freely swap between the two whenever(on cd of course). Ur acting like it's a trade off because u dont have the 3 pet skills and stat bonus as a soulbeast while still retaining the ai pet and its skill which is wrong.

And as trade off you LOSE the whole pet mechanic while merging. Simple. Core ranger has 100% pet uptime, Soulbeast has 50% pet uptime and 50% merge skills uptime. Seems not like an upgrade just like a switch compared to core in terms of mechanic. it balance out itself. the only thing that is not balanced out inherently is that Soulbeast gets more skills available and that can be solved with normal nerfing power lvl of skill ensembles.

As said additional stat boni for merging are not necessary and can be removed just as the ability to revive pets with merging. Soulbeast can get stat penalty on pets and stat penalty when merged, that would be no problem and would be just the same than i suggested by nerfing merge and pet skills (nerf dmg, delete double/ triple rewards, higher cds on individual skills).

And u regain when un merging all within same spec so no not simple. Honestly anet should have just made it simple so u guys wouldn't have just gotten used to a overloaded spec with its espec just literally being added onto ur core adding more versatility lol. They shoulda just made soulbeast pet less full stop and u get abilities based on pet chosen , that's a trade off. Not this oh it's a trade off cuz when merged we lose pet ai even though we can simply un merge on the fly at will and merged backup as well bs lol notice as everyone has said fb cant swap to virtues, thief cant swap its steal/dodges without switching specs but oh ranger can and on the fly lol. Deal with ur trade off as the other classes have had to and move on.

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@bravan.3876 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:Also the Soulbeast tradeoff is dumb.

A similar "tradeoff" would be like removing an attunement from Weaver. You guys are just killing the fluidity of the spec and haven't even changed the pet swap trait timers to match the merge cooldown.

You mention weaver and talk about fluidity but weaver is less fluid than base ele when it comes to attunement swapping due to global cooldown on swap as well as only partial attunement. There is a reason why there have been complaint to make unravel an F5. I mean anyone could have seen this coming a mile off.

His example still makes sense, not in terms of fluid gameplay but in terms of making trade offs which delete skills/ active gameplay options from elite specs for no good reason, even though just normal nerfing/ adjusting the power lvl and cds of the elite skill ensemple that has more skills added over core would do the balance job too.

But people keep misinterpreting what a trade of is supposed to be. At a class mechanical level soul beast only gained additional functionality:Merge. Nothing was lost.

You say no good reason and they are removing options but elite specs are not supposed to be straight upgrades which, due to the lack of trade offs, a lot of then were. They were just class+. That's now mostly gone. Again, before you forget, at a class mechanical level.

Wrong, Soulbeast loses pet f skills and the pet with his passive skills itself while merging already. That is already the needed trade off for Soulbeast that even adds skill ceiling by adding the decision between when to switch to merge skills and when to use the pet.

I don't know if you are missing the point on purpose out of sheer anger at what's happening but you're getting bogged down in effectivenes and playstyle again instead of what is actually there at the class mechanical level.

Ranger class mechanic: 2 pets.Soulbeast class mechanic: 2 pets and merge.

Soul beast has an opportunity cost for merging with the pet as you say. You gain it's stats/skills but lose it etc. But on the level of the mechanic itself it was just a pure functionality gain. This is why it's going down to one pet and merge.

Soulbeast has a playstyle tradeoff but not a class mechanical one. For what the trade offs are supposed to be it didn't have one now it's getting one.

Firebrands, Weavers, and Holosmiths don't have tradeoffs.

Yes they do. Firebrand loses their old virtues for new ones. Weavers lose the ability to single attune for being able to double attune. Holo lose their F5 to get photon forge.

The tradeoff aren't about effectiveness but about the class mechanic itself. You are saying they don't have one because the class mechanic is stronger or the build itself is strong. That's a balance issue not anything to do with the spec having a tradeoff or not.

With respect to their class mechanic soulbeast didn't lose anything to gain beast mode. Mechanically and thematically it makes sense that soul beast would be reduced to one pet. Again, very unsure how people didn't see this coming when Anet said they were looking to add tradeoffs to the specs that didn't have them.

Soulbeast lose all pet skills while being merged. That is a directly to the elite pointed trade off. That Soulbeast still has more buttons compared to core just like FB btw (more skills that can be chained) by being able to switch between 2 different mechanics (it is a SWITCH not an on top addition) has to be adjusted by lowering the overall power lvl of the more button ensemble. That can be done by normal nerfs and not by deleting parts of the elite mechanic itself.

It's not about having more buttons and no part of the elite mechanic is being removed. It's part of all of core that is being removed to make room for the elite mechanic, like every other spec in the game.

Why is it so hard to understand losing skills when merged is not s tradeoff when you have
just gained the option to merge
. At a mechanical level it's s pure gain and now it's not. For the last time :

Core: 2 pets - core mechanic.Slb now: 2 pets and beat mode - pure gain since you still have two pets and a new mode
regardless of if you lose your pet and it's skills during merge
it's the fact nothing is lost to gain the new mode.Slb then: 1 pet and beast mode - something had been lost to gain beast mode. A trade off at a class mechanical level.

It's really so easy to understand.

I am going to give up though since it is clear now you don't really understand what Anet meant by tradeoffs at all.

I think you don't understand and also never played Soulbeast. The trade off is directly pointed to have a decision making about choosing when to use merge skills and when to use pet skills. You don't have both at same time. This is a trade off and when you cannot understand this basic thing than i am the one giving up trying to explain the obvious. The only on top thing Soulbeast factual got over core is some more skills they can chain AFTER ANOTHER, while the fact that they can SWITCH between 2 different mechanics is already trade offed by the need to CHOOSE which one to use at a specific situation in a fight and not being able to use both AT SAME TIME. To make Soulbeast not overperform and for that not being an upgrade compared to core you only need to nerf the power lvl of the more button skill ensemble from Soulbeast to the lower power lvl from the core skill ensemble with less available buttons (what isn't even remarkable lower, thats why there are very strong core Ranger builds completely equally alternatives to Soulbeast and viable on same lvl as Soulbeast). Because more buttons to CHAIN AFTER ANOTHER is all what Soulbeats got over core what was not trade offed already by the inherent trade off with the need to CHOOSE BETWEEN 2 different mechanics which EXCLUDE each other.

Incorrect thats not a trade off thats just knowing how to play. Thats not the same thing and thats a super twisted perspective to take especially when trying to tell other professions they dont have a trade off.Thats like saying its a trade off for reaper to have good damage without the increased life force decay and just know when to and not to shroud.Thats like saying its a trade off for swipe to not have reduced ranged but still be unblockable and just know when to swipe and not to swipe.....Thats like saying its a trade off spellbreaker to keep level 3 burst and jutst know when to Full counter and when not to full counterThat is not a trade off lol

You cant call out other professions for not having trade offs but then try to twist what a trade off is or should be for your main profession. Especially when other realistically do have them and the one you are defending did not.

Knowing when and when not to press a button is not a trade off.

A trade off is losing some thing for another thing even while that thing is not activated yet. The fact that you have access to it should come with a loss of something else.

Slotting reaper means you lose ranged abilities in shroud form even if you have not activated it and that it consumes more resources than the normal version once you do activate it. That is a trade off even if you have not activated shroud it yet because you cant go back to having life blast, doom, life transfer, etc while reaper is slotted. You are stuck with that choice you made before hand.

Even if we look deeper you losing your pet while fused is no different from reaper losing utility access while its in shroud which by all means is not considered a trade off because anet threw more ontop of it with the increased decay and removal of ranged abilities.

Spellbreakers are stuck with level 1 burst and zerkers are stuck with no burst until they can enter zerker mode These are trade offs from core warrior again its got absolutely nothing with knowing when to activate a skill or mode. That is not a trade off.

Im like legit shocked that you would even say that while you have been calling out these other professions that lacked trade offs when they obviously have them there are out right mechanical differences in some of the ones you called out in other post which makes trade off clear as day. Like seriously how do you sit here and say i know when to press a button and thats my trade off... WHAT? ???No other profession has that as a trade off because its not one.

You have clearly confused knowing how to use a skill/tool/mechanic with Trading one benefit for another benefit.

IF anything be happy they are still allowing f4 pet swap out of combat so at least there is some flexibility in moments where you are not fighting anyone which lets you adapt a tiny bit between combat situations.

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@ZDragon.3046 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:Also the Soulbeast tradeoff is dumb.

A similar "tradeoff" would be like removing an attunement from Weaver. You guys are just killing the fluidity of the spec and haven't even changed the pet swap trait timers to match the merge cooldown.

You mention weaver and talk about fluidity but weaver is less fluid than base ele when it comes to attunement swapping due to global cooldown on swap as well as only partial attunement. There is a reason why there have been complaint to make unravel an F5. I mean anyone could have seen this coming a mile off.

His example still makes sense, not in terms of fluid gameplay but in terms of making trade offs which delete skills/ active gameplay options from elite specs for no good reason, even though just normal nerfing/ adjusting the power lvl and cds of the elite skill ensemple that has more skills added over core would do the balance job too.

But people keep misinterpreting what a trade of is supposed to be. At a class mechanical level soul beast only gained additional functionality:Merge. Nothing was lost.

You say no good reason and they are removing options but elite specs are not supposed to be straight upgrades which, due to the lack of trade offs, a lot of then were. They were just class+. That's now mostly gone. Again, before you forget, at a class mechanical level.

Wrong, Soulbeast loses pet f skills and the pet with his passive skills itself while merging already. That is already the needed trade off for Soulbeast that even adds skill ceiling by adding the decision between when to switch to merge skills and when to use the pet.

I don't know if you are missing the point on purpose out of sheer anger at what's happening but you're getting bogged down in effectivenes and playstyle again instead of what is actually there at the class mechanical level.

Ranger class mechanic: 2 pets.Soulbeast class mechanic: 2 pets and merge.

Soul beast has an opportunity cost for merging with the pet as you say. You gain it's stats/skills but lose it etc. But on the level of the mechanic itself it was just a pure functionality gain. This is why it's going down to one pet and merge.

Soulbeast has a playstyle tradeoff but not a class mechanical one. For what the trade offs are supposed to be it didn't have one now it's getting one.

Firebrands, Weavers, and Holosmiths don't have tradeoffs.

Yes they do. Firebrand loses their old virtues for new ones. Weavers lose the ability to single attune for being able to double attune. Holo lose their F5 to get photon forge.

The tradeoff aren't about effectiveness but about the class mechanic itself. You are saying they don't have one because the class mechanic is stronger or the build itself is strong. That's a balance issue not anything to do with the spec having a tradeoff or not.

With respect to their class mechanic soulbeast didn't lose anything to gain beast mode. Mechanically and thematically it makes sense that soul beast would be reduced to one pet. Again, very unsure how people didn't see this coming when Anet said they were looking to add tradeoffs to the specs that didn't have them.

Soulbeast lose all pet skills while being merged. That is a directly to the elite pointed trade off. That Soulbeast still has more buttons compared to core just like FB btw (more skills that can be chained) by being able to switch between 2 different mechanics (it is a SWITCH not an on top addition) has to be adjusted by lowering the overall power lvl of the more button ensemble. That can be done by normal nerfs and not by deleting parts of the elite mechanic itself.

It's not about having more buttons and no part of the elite mechanic is being removed. It's part of all of core that is being removed to make room for the elite mechanic, like every other spec in the game.

Why is it so hard to understand losing skills when merged is not s tradeoff when you have
just gained the option to merge
. At a mechanical level it's s pure gain and now it's not. For the last time :

Core: 2 pets - core mechanic.Slb now: 2 pets and beat mode - pure gain since you still have two pets and a new mode
regardless of if you lose your pet and it's skills during merge
it's the fact nothing is lost to gain the new mode.Slb then: 1 pet and beast mode - something had been lost to gain beast mode. A trade off at a class mechanical level.

It's really so easy to understand.

I am going to give up though since it is clear now you don't really understand what Anet meant by tradeoffs at all.

I think you don't understand and also never played Soulbeast. The trade off is directly pointed to have a decision making about choosing when to use merge skills and when to use pet skills. You don't have both at same time. This is a trade off and when you cannot understand this basic thing than i am the one giving up trying to explain the obvious. The only on top thing Soulbeast factual got over core is some more skills they can chain AFTER ANOTHER, while the fact that they can SWITCH between 2 different mechanics is already trade offed by the need to CHOOSE which one to use at a specific situation in a fight and not being able to use both AT SAME TIME. To make Soulbeast not overperform and for that not being an upgrade compared to core you only need to nerf the power lvl of the more button skill ensemble from Soulbeast to the lower power lvl from the core skill ensemble with less available buttons (what isn't even remarkable lower, thats why there are very strong core Ranger builds completely equally alternatives to Soulbeast and viable on same lvl as Soulbeast). Because more buttons to CHAIN AFTER ANOTHER is all what Soulbeats got over core what was not trade offed already by the inherent trade off with the need to CHOOSE BETWEEN 2 different mechanics which EXCLUDE each other.

Incorrect thats not a trade off thats just knowing how to play. Thats not the same thing and thats a super twisted perspective to take especially when trying to tell other professions they dont have a trade off.Thats like saying its a trade off for reaper to have good damage without the increased life force decay and just know when to and not to shroud.Thats like saying its a trade off for swipe to not have reduced ranged but still be unblockable and just know when to swipe and not to swipe.....Thats like saying its a trade off spellbreaker to keep level 3 burst and jutst know when to Full counter and when not to full counterThat is not a trade off lol

You cant call out other professions for not having trade offs but then try to twist what a trade off is or should be for your main profession. Especially when other realistically do have them and the one you are defending did not.

Knowing when and when not to press a button is not a trade off.

A trade off is losing some thing for another thing even while that thing is not activated yet. The fact that you have access to it should come with a loss of something else.

Slotting reaper means you lose ranged abilities in shroud form even if you have not activated it and that it consumes more resources than the normal version once you do activate it. That is a trade off even if you have not activated shroud it yet because you cant go back to having life blast, doom, life transfer, etc while reaper is slotted. You are stuck with that choice you made before hand.

Even if we look deeper you losing your pet while fused is no different from reaper losing utility access while its in shroud which by all means is not considered a trade off because anet threw more ontop of it with the increased decay and removal of ranged abilities.

Spellbreakers are stuck with level 1 burst and zerkers are stuck with no burst until they can enter zerker mode These are trade offs from core warrior again its got absolutely nothing with knowing when to activate a skill or mode. That is not a trade off.

Im like legit shocked that you would even say that while you have been calling out these other professions that lacked trade offs when they obviously have them there are out right mechanical differences in some of the ones you called out in other post which makes trade off clear as day. Like seriously how do you sit here and say i know when to press a button and thats my trade off... WHAT? ???No other profession has that as a trade off because its not one.

You have clearly confused
knowing how to use a skill/tool/mechanic
with
Trading one benefit for another benefit.

IF anything be happy they are still allowing f4 pet swap out of combat so at least there is some flexibility in moments where you are not fighting anyone which lets you adapt a tiny bit between combat situations.

This^ imagine a reaper not losing deathroud but is given the reaper shroud as another added mechanic then saying the trade off is that when u are in reaper shroud u lose out on the deathroud skills so it's got a trade off lol.

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@ZDragon.3046 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:Also the Soulbeast tradeoff is dumb.

A similar "tradeoff" would be like removing an attunement from Weaver. You guys are just killing the fluidity of the spec and haven't even changed the pet swap trait timers to match the merge cooldown.

You mention weaver and talk about fluidity but weaver is less fluid than base ele when it comes to attunement swapping due to global cooldown on swap as well as only partial attunement. There is a reason why there have been complaint to make unravel an F5. I mean anyone could have seen this coming a mile off.

His example still makes sense, not in terms of fluid gameplay but in terms of making trade offs which delete skills/ active gameplay options from elite specs for no good reason, even though just normal nerfing/ adjusting the power lvl and cds of the elite skill ensemple that has more skills added over core would do the balance job too.

But people keep misinterpreting what a trade of is supposed to be. At a class mechanical level soul beast only gained additional functionality:Merge. Nothing was lost.

You say no good reason and they are removing options but elite specs are not supposed to be straight upgrades which, due to the lack of trade offs, a lot of then were. They were just class+. That's now mostly gone. Again, before you forget, at a class mechanical level.

Wrong, Soulbeast loses pet f skills and the pet with his passive skills itself while merging already. That is already the needed trade off for Soulbeast that even adds skill ceiling by adding the decision between when to switch to merge skills and when to use the pet.

I don't know if you are missing the point on purpose out of sheer anger at what's happening but you're getting bogged down in effectivenes and playstyle again instead of what is actually there at the class mechanical level.

Ranger class mechanic: 2 pets.Soulbeast class mechanic: 2 pets and merge.

Soul beast has an opportunity cost for merging with the pet as you say. You gain it's stats/skills but lose it etc. But on the level of the mechanic itself it was just a pure functionality gain. This is why it's going down to one pet and merge.

Soulbeast has a playstyle tradeoff but not a class mechanical one. For what the trade offs are supposed to be it didn't have one now it's getting one.

Firebrands, Weavers, and Holosmiths don't have tradeoffs.

Yes they do. Firebrand loses their old virtues for new ones. Weavers lose the ability to single attune for being able to double attune. Holo lose their F5 to get photon forge.

The tradeoff aren't about effectiveness but about the class mechanic itself. You are saying they don't have one because the class mechanic is stronger or the build itself is strong. That's a balance issue not anything to do with the spec having a tradeoff or not.

With respect to their class mechanic soulbeast didn't lose anything to gain beast mode. Mechanically and thematically it makes sense that soul beast would be reduced to one pet. Again, very unsure how people didn't see this coming when Anet said they were looking to add tradeoffs to the specs that didn't have them.

Soulbeast lose all pet skills while being merged. That is a directly to the elite pointed trade off. That Soulbeast still has more buttons compared to core just like FB btw (more skills that can be chained) by being able to switch between 2 different mechanics (it is a SWITCH not an on top addition) has to be adjusted by lowering the overall power lvl of the more button ensemble. That can be done by normal nerfs and not by deleting parts of the elite mechanic itself.

It's not about having more buttons and no part of the elite mechanic is being removed. It's part of all of core that is being removed to make room for the elite mechanic, like every other spec in the game.

Why is it so hard to understand losing skills when merged is not s tradeoff when you have
just gained the option to merge
. At a mechanical level it's s pure gain and now it's not. For the last time :

Core: 2 pets - core mechanic.Slb now: 2 pets and beat mode - pure gain since you still have two pets and a new mode
regardless of if you lose your pet and it's skills during merge
it's the fact nothing is lost to gain the new mode.Slb then: 1 pet and beast mode - something had been lost to gain beast mode. A trade off at a class mechanical level.

It's really so easy to understand.

I am going to give up though since it is clear now you don't really understand what Anet meant by tradeoffs at all.

I think you don't understand and also never played Soulbeast. The trade off is directly pointed to have a decision making about choosing when to use merge skills and when to use pet skills. You don't have both at same time. This is a trade off and when you cannot understand this basic thing than i am the one giving up trying to explain the obvious. The only on top thing Soulbeast factual got over core is some more skills they can chain AFTER ANOTHER, while the fact that they can SWITCH between 2 different mechanics is already trade offed by the need to CHOOSE which one to use at a specific situation in a fight and not being able to use both AT SAME TIME. To make Soulbeast not overperform and for that not being an upgrade compared to core you only need to nerf the power lvl of the more button skill ensemble from Soulbeast to the lower power lvl from the core skill ensemble with less available buttons (what isn't even remarkable lower, thats why there are very strong core Ranger builds completely equally alternatives to Soulbeast and viable on same lvl as Soulbeast). Because more buttons to CHAIN AFTER ANOTHER is all what Soulbeats got over core what was not trade offed already by the inherent trade off with the need to CHOOSE BETWEEN 2 different mechanics which EXCLUDE each other.

Incorrect thats not a trade off thats just knowing how to play. Thats not the same thing and thats a super twisted perspective to take especially when trying to tell other professions they dont have a trade off.Thats like saying its a trade off for reaper to have good damage without the increased life force decay and just know when to and not to shroud.Thats like saying its a trade off for swipe to not have reduced ranged but still be unblockable and just know when to swipe and not to swipe.....Thats like saying its a trade off spellbreaker to keep level 3 burst and jutst know when to Full counter and when not to full counterThat is not a trade off lol

You cant call out other professions for not having trade offs but then try to twist what a trade off is or should be for your main profession. Especially when other realistically do have them and the one you are defending did not.

Knowing when and when not to press a button is not a trade off.

A trade off is losing some thing for another thing even while that thing is not activated yet. The fact that you have access to it should come with a loss of something else.

Slotting reaper means you lose ranged abilities in shroud form even if you have not activated it and that it consumes more resources than the normal version once you do activate it. That is a trade off even if you have not activated shroud it yet because you cant go back to having life blast, doom, life transfer, etc while reaper is slotted. You are stuck with that choice you made before hand.

Even if we look deeper you losing your pet while fused is no different from reaper losing utility access while its in shroud which by all means is not considered a trade off because anet threw more ontop of it with the increased decay and removal of ranged abilities.

Spellbreakers are stuck with level 1 burst and zerkers are stuck with no burst until they can enter zerker mode These are trade offs from core warrior again its got absolutely nothing with knowing when to activate a skill or mode. That is not a trade off.

Im like legit shocked that you would even say that while you have been calling out these other professions that lacked trade offs when they obviously have them there are out right mechanical differences in some of the ones you called out in other post which makes trade off clear as day. Like seriously how do you sit here and say i know when to press a button and thats my trade off... WHAT? ???No other profession has that as a trade off because its not one.

You have clearly confused
knowing how to use a skill/tool/mechanic
with
Trading one benefit for another benefit.

IF anything be happy they are still allowing f4 pet swap out of combat so at least there is some flexibility in moments where you are not fighting anyone which lets you adapt a tiny bit between combat situations.

You totally missinterpret and missunderstood what i said lol (ofc skill ceiling is some sort trade off or at least in terms of balance logic allows that something that is harder to play or to pull off can be more rewarding/can have a little bit stronger rewards when played well than something that needs less skill but that was not my point). The trade of from Soulbeast is that the one mechanic that is new keeps out the other old mechanic while in use. Nothing more nothing less. The only thing that is not automatically trade offed by this is the more in skills Soulbeast has access to compared to core.

I fail to undertand the Reaper example. Core Necro gets locked out of weaponskills by shroud too, so ofc it is not a Reaper trade off when it is the same there. It is just keeping the old mechanic. While Scourge get shroud skills not locking Scourge out of weaponskills. Ppl like to say the Scourge trade off is, that Scourge for that has no second hp pool from shroud but that is actually not true because the barrier mechanic just replaced that. But that is another topic i was not talking about until now.

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@bravan.3876 is 100% correct.

The people that are saying that losing Virtues in exchange for Tomes is a drawback are insane. Firebrands cannot use Virtues to gain access to Tome Skills.Soulbeasts cannot use Pets to gain access to Merge Skills.

It's literally no different except that Firebrand's Tomes replace the functionality of Core Guardian Virtues and give 15-24 extremely strong skills with 90% of them being very useful and low cooldown. Soulbeasts get 3 (varying cooldowns from short to long), majority useless, with a handful of pets getting 1-3 skills that actually do something in a fight.

If Soulbeasts could use both Pets AND Merge Skills at the same time, then that would be a different story. But the spec already has a tradeoff and now it's receiving another one.

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@"bravan.3876"

I think you are confusing "trade-off", as Anet means it according to some of their update explanations, with the concept of "limitations" built into e-spec mechanics.

"Trade-off" as Anet defines it, is permanently sacrificing something from the core spec in exchange for something different in an elite spec.

Whether intended trade-offs are reasonable, or how effective or skilled the respective mechanics are, are separate issues.

  • Reducing pet stats on Druid was an intended trade-off, whether or not it was wise.
  • Replacing Steal with Swipe was an intended trade-off, whether or not it was wise.
  • What they did to Chrono was an intended trade-off, whether or not it was wise.

We can also see Anet's meaning of trade-off in the late-in-life change they made to Revenant. Recognizing that Herald and Renegade completely lacked trade-offs compared to core, they added the F2 skill, Ancient Echo, as an exclusive skill to core Revenant, only available when an elite spec is not taken. Whether Ancient Echo is worth picking the core spec over the elites is debatable, but the relevance is that Anet only considers there to be a trade off if the e-spec completely lacks something available to the core spec.

What these examples all have in common is the complete and permanent lack of something from core in the elite spec.

Clearly, you cannot say the same for current Soulbeast. It simply gains a new mechanic and associated advantages on top of the core spec without permanently giving up anything from it. If Soulbeast wants the core benefit of two swappable pets, it's still available simply by not using the added elite mechanic.

Losing access to pets while merged is a limitation built into the added elite mechanic, the way Heat is a limitation built into Holomode. But neither is inherently a trade-off versus core because core doesn't have access to the elite mechanic in the first place. In short, Soulbeast has what Ranger has in terms of pets, plus more.

To be clear, this "trade-offs" distinction is somewhat academic, and only part of the broader balance discussion.

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@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:@"bravan.3876"

I think you are confusing "trade-off", as Anet means it according to some of their update explanations, with the concept of "limitations" built into e-spec mechanics.

"Trade-off" as Anet defines it, is permanently sacrificing something from the core spec in exchange for something different in an elite spec.

Whether intended trade-offs are reasonable, or how effective or skilled the respective mechanics are, are separate issues.

  • Reducing pet stats on Druid was an intended trade-off, whether or not it was wise.
  • Replacing Steal with Swipe was an intended trade-off, whether or not it was wise.
  • What they did to Chrono was an intended trade-off, whether or not it was wise.

We can also see Anet's meaning of trade-off in the late-in-life change they made to Revenant. Recognizing that Herald and Renegade completely lacked trade-offs compared to core, they added the F2 skill, Ancient Echo, as an exclusive skill to core Revenant, only available when an elite spec is not taken. Whether Ancient Echo is worth picking the core spec over the elites is debatable, but the relevance is that Anet only considers there to be a trade off if the e-spec completely lacks something available to the core spec.

What these examples all have in common is the complete and permanent lack of something from core in the elite spec.

Clearly, you cannot say the same for current Soulbeast. It simply gains a new mechanic and associated advantages on top of the core spec without permanently giving up anything from it. If Soulbeast wants the core benefit of two swappable pets, it's still available simply by not using the added elite mechanic.

Losing access to pets while merged is a limitation built into the added elite mechanic, the way Heat is a limitation built into Holomode. But neither is inherently a trade-off versus core because core doesn't have access to the elite mechanic in the first place. In short, Soulbeast has what Ranger has in terms of pets, plus more.

To be clear, this "trade-offs" distinction is somewhat academic, and only part of the broader balance discussion.

I get what you say but it doesn't make sense to me.

  1. When you say trade off means, giving up something permanently from core (even though the new mechanic that the elite gets is not permanently in use and gets already locked out by using the core mechanic while playing and no matter if the elite isn't even overperforming over core o rnot), than this is already giving by not having 3 core traitlines in the build anymore. That is a whole core traitline with often very power creeped and for that insane strong traits on which elites have no access to anymore. When trade offs are only about stealing somehting from elites in addition to what they already have to give up, without even considering if the elite is even too strong and an actual upgrade and for that unbalanced compared too core or not, than this is a consept that doesn't make sense and will just detroy the game. It is not logical to artificial delete stuff from elites no matter if it even is problematic or not balancewise. This is then just a stupid marketing step, an idée fixe that has no good reason to exist. Because the creators of the spec already had balance compared to core in mind while developping the elites, that is why Soulbeast didn't get merge skills in addition to pet skills and can only use one of it at same time, and why Ranger has to choose and to switch between the 2 mechanics. The only problem i see balancewise compared to Core Ranger is, that Soulbeast has overall more buttons can be used and chained (means when pet skills are on cd i just merge and have some other skills still not on cd) and balancewise all what is needed to make elites not op and an upgrade is lowering the power lvl from the Soulbeast skill ensemble with more buttons/skill included by normal nerfs or stat penalties for pets and for while being merged, so Soulbeast needs to press the more buttons to have the same dmg/ power lvl than the Core skill ensemble with less skills available. It is in my view purely balance wise not needed to steal something from Soulbeast just for the sake of stealing something that i then can call a trade off. Core already has builds have no problem to compete with Soulbeast builds in its power lvl. And if Soulbeast would be so much stronger compared to core than stat penalties on pets and on being merged would do the job too. But making good balance without making specs clunky or even unplayable seems not to be what is the goal of the whole trade off mess. it seems it is just about making trade offs for the sake of having trade offs, no matter if needed or logical or nonsense or not. And that is not a good balance step.
  2. So however we define trade off, the overall goal should be to bring elite specs in line with core, means that they are not stronger than core, that core is an equally strong alternative just with different playstyle/ mechanic but not weaker in terms of power lvl. As long as this is possible to reach without deleting additional core things aside from the 3. missing core traitline than it should be done by that. But atm elite specs get trade offs already not stronger or even weaker than core builds. That makes no sense just for the sake of calling it a trade off which is not needed balancewise. Just as core Ele has more skills overall than other core classes it is not in need for a trade off to balance this more in skills by deleting skills from the kit.
  3. Short said the artifical created idea of trade offs, to steal core parts of mechanics (on which elites ofc naturally are build on top of and are for that often still needed, example Chrono) is per se completely unlogic and senseless. In particular when it does that only to add trade offs by stealing active gameplay parts just for the sake of stealing somthing that core has, even on elites not overperforming and no matter how clunky and contradicting to the elite mechanic that steal of core mechanics is (like Mesmer in general, no matter what spec is in need to have instant shatters with IP. That is why IP got baseline in the first place the moment they deleted phantams oriented playstyle from Mesmer. Shatter oriented builds need IP. You cannot remove that for the sake of having an artifical trade off for Chrono that simply deleted heavily needed core mechanics Chrono is based on).
  4. Trade offs feel more like a political agenda than something that rly makes sense and is needed balancewise. And political agendas not linked to what is needed and healthy balancewise, so far away from game reality and game logic, just will destroy the game (as you can see already that some elites are compeltely destroyed or clunkly and unfun by deleting core mechanics which elites are build on and depending on and are needed for the elite to even work. If elites with more skills added are overperforming compared to core than just normally nerf this power lvl to justify the more buttons some elites have. Instead adding trade offs which often don't even solve the balance problems some elite spec builds have.
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@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:Also the Soulbeast tradeoff is dumb.

A similar "tradeoff" would be like removing an attunement from Weaver. You guys are just killing the fluidity of the spec and haven't even changed the pet swap trait timers to match the merge cooldown.

You mention weaver and talk about fluidity but weaver is less fluid than base ele when it comes to attunement swapping due to global cooldown on swap as well as only partial attunement. There is a reason why there have been complaint to make unravel an F5. I mean anyone could have seen this coming a mile off.

His example still makes sense, not in terms of fluid gameplay but in terms of making trade offs which delete skills/ active gameplay options from elite specs for no good reason, even though just normal nerfing/ adjusting the power lvl and cds of the elite skill ensemple that has more skills added over core would do the balance job too.

But people keep misinterpreting what a trade of is supposed to be. At a class mechanical level soul beast only gained additional functionality:Merge. Nothing was lost.

You say no good reason and they are removing options but elite specs are not supposed to be straight upgrades which, due to the lack of trade offs, a lot of then were. They were just class+. That's now mostly gone. Again, before you forget, at a class mechanical level.

Wrong, Soulbeast loses pet f skills and the pet with his passive skills itself while merging already. That is already the needed trade off for Soulbeast that even adds skill ceiling by adding the decision between when to switch to merge skills and when to use the pet.

I don't know if you are missing the point on purpose out of sheer anger at what's happening but you're getting bogged down in effectivenes and playstyle again instead of what is actually there at the class mechanical level.

Ranger class mechanic: 2 pets.Soulbeast class mechanic: 2 pets and merge.

Soul beast has an opportunity cost for merging with the pet as you say. You gain it's stats/skills but lose it etc. But on the level of the mechanic itself it was just a pure functionality gain. This is why it's going down to one pet and merge.

Soulbeast has a playstyle tradeoff but not a class mechanical one. For what the trade offs are supposed to be it didn't have one now it's getting one.

Firebrands, Weavers, and Holosmiths don't have tradeoffs.

Yes they do. Firebrand loses their old virtues for new ones. Weavers lose the ability to single attune for being able to double attune. Holo lose their F5 to get photon forge.

The tradeoff aren't about effectiveness but about the class mechanic itself. You are saying they don't have one because the class mechanic is stronger or the build itself is strong. That's a balance issue not anything to do with the spec having a tradeoff or not.

With respect to their class mechanic soulbeast didn't lose anything to gain beast mode. Mechanically and thematically it makes sense that soul beast would be reduced to one pet. Again, very unsure how people didn't see this coming when Anet said they were looking to add tradeoffs to the specs that didn't have them.

following your logic chrono still doesnt have a tradeoff.core mesmer mechanics -> shatterschrono mechanics -> shattersand thus same mechanics, it doesnt work like that. when soulbeast merges he actively loses pet dps, pet projectile blocks, and pet CCThere doesnt need to be negative mechanic to "balance out" espec. they tried with chrono and look what we have, they should learn from their mistake and move on.

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The problem is anet screwed up with soulbeast in the first place causing this arguement. If anet wanted to follow suit as with other espec as soon as soulbeast traitline is taken the un merged state should have been removed and soulbeast should have been released as a pet less espec where u gain 3 of ur pet skills as u do now depending on ur per choice which can be swapped out of combat with a second pet of the players choice but always stayed merged with pet. It never should have been released as it was basically being core with a added choice to use the mechanic of gaining 3 skills and extra stats.

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@Sigmoid.7082 said:It's funny how most people besides most ranger mains get why the changes is being made.

I also think Mirage is unbalanced but removing a dodge is not the right move.

I get why Anet is making the change to Soulbeast but it doesn't make sense. They are adding another tradeoff to a spec that already has one. Not to mention, the spec isn't even competitive against the current meta classes. Soulbeast really does nothing better than any of the current side noders except for maybe decap over a long period of time? Our already weak ability to trade damage is getting nerfed some more and our sub-par staying power on node is getting butchered. Then we won't even have the utility from our second pet to help make up for it AND the pet swap trait timers don't even match the merge cooldown.

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:Also the Soulbeast tradeoff is dumb.

A similar "tradeoff" would be like removing an attunement from Weaver. You guys are just killing the fluidity of the spec and haven't even changed the pet swap trait timers to match the merge cooldown.

You mention weaver and talk about fluidity but weaver is less fluid than base ele when it comes to attunement swapping due to global cooldown on swap as well as only partial attunement. There is a reason why there have been complaint to make unravel an F5. I mean anyone could have seen this coming a mile off.

His example still makes sense, not in terms of fluid gameplay but in terms of making trade offs which delete skills/ active gameplay options from elite specs for no good reason, even though just normal nerfing/ adjusting the power lvl and cds of the elite skill ensemple that has more skills added over core would do the balance job too.

But people keep misinterpreting what a trade of is supposed to be. At a class mechanical level soul beast only gained additional functionality:Merge. Nothing was lost.

You say no good reason and they are removing options but elite specs are not supposed to be straight upgrades which, due to the lack of trade offs, a lot of then were. They were just class+. That's now mostly gone. Again, before you forget, at a class mechanical level.

Wrong, Soulbeast loses pet f skills and the pet with his passive skills itself while merging already. That is already the needed trade off for Soulbeast that even adds skill ceiling by adding the decision between when to switch to merge skills and when to use the pet.

I don't know if you are missing the point on purpose out of sheer anger at what's happening but you're getting bogged down in effectivenes and playstyle again instead of what is actually there at the class mechanical level.

Ranger class mechanic: 2 pets.Soulbeast class mechanic: 2 pets and merge.

Soul beast has an opportunity cost for merging with the pet as you say. You gain it's stats/skills but lose it etc. But on the level of the mechanic itself it was just a pure functionality gain. This is why it's going down to one pet and merge.

Soulbeast has a playstyle tradeoff but not a class mechanical one. For what the trade offs are supposed to be it didn't have one now it's getting one.

Firebrands, Weavers, and Holosmiths don't have tradeoffs.

Yes they do. Firebrand loses their old virtues for new ones. Weavers lose the ability to single attune for being able to double attune. Holo lose their F5 to get photon forge.

The tradeoff aren't about effectiveness but about the class mechanic itself. You are saying they don't have one because the class mechanic is stronger or the build itself is strong. That's a balance issue not anything to do with the spec having a tradeoff or not.

With respect to their class mechanic soulbeast didn't lose anything to gain beast mode. Mechanically and thematically it makes sense that soul beast would be reduced to one pet. Again, very unsure how people didn't see this coming when Anet said they were looking to add tradeoffs to the specs that didn't have them.

following your logic chrono still doesnt have a tradeoff.core mesmer mechanics -> shatterschrono mechanics -> shattersand thus same mechanics, it doesnt work like that. when soulbeast merges he actively loses pet dps, pet projectile blocks, and pet CCThere doesnt need to be negative mechanic to "balance out" espec. they tried with chrono and look what we have, they should learn from their mistake and move on.

Chrono used to have F5 not it's part of F4 because it was deemed not a trade off. Plus they lose the image illusionary persona. That is a trade off at a class mechanical level.

It doesn't matter what happens when you merge..that's the point. It's the option to merge while still retaining core rangers base mechanic of having two pets.

Elite specs don't have a negative they have a shift on mechanic instead of a life gain on functionality.

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Sigmoid.7082 said:It's funny how most people besides most ranger mains get why the changes is being made.

we get why the change is being made, unlike most. we also know why this change is stupid and unneeded

I disagree that it's unneeded. If it was there to start people would have accepted it. People are just used to being spoilt by mechanical power creep.

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@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@Sigmoid.7082 said:It's funny how most people besides most ranger mains get why the changes is being made.

we get why the change is being made, unlike most. we also know why this change is stupid and unneeded

I disagree that it's unneeded. If it was there to start people would have accepted it. People are just used to being spoilt by mechanical power creep.

No, i have no problem with reducing the power creep but that can be done by simple stat penalty (and deleting some rly overperforming aspects of Soulbeast compared to core but also compared to a skilled game we want to create, like the ability to revive pets with merging, it should be more like Soulbeasts cannot merge with dead pets. Also Soulbeast should not get additional rewards for merging by higher stats, it should be the opposite, you can keep the traits giving boni for merging but from the basic stats they should be reduced while merged). You also can nerf dmg and cds from pet skills and merge skill directly when needed and delete double or triple rewards on overloaded merge skills. The only things needed to de-power-creep Soulbeast compared to core are normal nerfs and not artificial trade offs (Soulbeast isn't even rly power creeped compared to core, core traitlines are the most power creeped lines and that on a pretty passive lvl of simply adding either sustain, often very passvie facetank sustain, see Warriors Defenseline or Chaosline on Mesmer or more or less passive dmg buffs not rly adding any skill ceiling or mechanically complexity or tactical deepness to a build and only defines a build as more dmg or more tanky orientated). All elite specs already have the permanent trade off of losing a 3. core traitline. That is why it is possible that core Ranger builds are just as strong or even stronger than Soulbeast builds, even though Soulbeast has more buttons in his skill kit. And that is why it is possible that some Core Mesmer builds are stronger and easier to play than some Mirage builds already. And why 99% of all player in this game still don't have enough skill to play a "beyond broken passive condispam Mirage" with 2 dodges without op Chaosline (not to mention the 99,9% of player not being able to play Powermirage above gold) while Chaosline can make core builds viable and even stronger than Chrono or Mirage builds not using Chaosline.

Whatever the point is not that i don't agree to reduce power creep and make classes (no matter if core or elite spec) more skilled and less noobfriendly. I just highly disagree with the way Anet does it via trade offs. I think trade offs the way Anet is creating them are nonsense, they often delete skill ceiling instead higher it. They do not rly solve balance problems instead just deleting the problem from the game by making specs clunky and unfun or even unplayable. I think normal nerfs to elites which have either more skills or a stronger mechanic on top of core to balance the power lvl are more than enough. At least for elite specs that already have an inherent trade off working against a power creeped elite compared to core (like Soulbest compared to Daredevil without shorter steal: Soulbeast has to give up pet skills incl pets autoattack as perma pressure aspect while being merged. What did Daredevil give up before steal rework? Nothing. So yes Daredevil can have a new trade off because Daredevil never had an inherent trade off as compensation for getting more and strogner dodges until steal rework. The problem with the Daredevil trade off is just, that it makes the spec super clunky to play and that also here the trade off could have been a shorter stealrange from 900 instead 600 for less clunkyness and giving a penalty on defensive stats to compensate for the more in active dodge defense. Also Anet should not compensate the new trade off by adding a new feature that is even balancewise unhealthy and broken, that also contradicts the just added trade off. Also Chrono can have a trade off because didn't have an inherent one, just it got 3 and 2 of them make no sense at all. Nonsense over nonsense...).

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The "trade-offs" being introduced are all part of Anet's efforts to retroactively rework elite specs to be alternative (horizontal) options to core specs, rather than improved (vertical) upgrades.

@"bravan.3876", I agree that balance should be targeted towards individual overperforming specs and any overtuned aspects they may have, rather than creating simplistic "trade-offs" for the sake of the goal above, and calling it a day. That's lazy balancing, and there isn't a good track record of it thus far.

You're absolutely right that far too often, we see things altered to become clunky, unfun, or lower skill cap, often without even addressing the underlying issues. I'd nominate Mirage as the biggest proof of this.

I think where they're going wrong is their tendency to tunnel vision the trade-offs agenda towards altering the profession's core mechanic on e-specs--that is, the F skills. This is a very limited approach that may be convenient, but inhibits the granular attention to problem skills and traits that is actually needed.

What's worse, by focusing only on chopping something out of the profession mechanic, they're too often gutting the essence of the spec. Again, see both Mesmer e-specs.

I can only hope that after the dust settles from this mega update, they really hone in on the inevitable outliers, and are willing to make both the right adjustments, and revisit the bad ones.

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@Erzian.5218 said:Imagine if reaper had gotten reapers shroud in addition to core shroud (not instead of) or if firebrand had base virtue + tomes (with the downside that you couldn’t use core virtues while you are using a tome). That is what merge is on soulbeast. It’s not a specialization trade off right now, it simply is an additional skill (aka. Pure upside) which has up- and downsides when you use it. The reason why core ranger sees play over soulbeast sometimes is because core ranger traitline passive bonuses are stronger and synergize better with each other than with soulbeast (but this is similarly true for other classes).

They haven't done that to Reaper true, Reaper got just straight up better shroud skills compared to the core ones. You could have given Reaper a second shroud with own skills btw. no problem, as long as both shrouds can't be active at same time and lock out weaponsskills and as long as both shrouds together are not stronger than the one shroud from core (means the power lvl from both Reaper shrouds needs to be around halfed so that they both together have the same impact/ power lvl then the one core shroud). This new Reaper would be way less power creeped compared to core than the current Reaper we have in the game on the class mechanic lvl. Because the current Reaper just has one shroud but this one shroud is clearly better than the old (core) one.

It gets even better when looking at Scourge: Scourge got something on top of core shroud without compensating the upgrade by deleting core mechanics in a way that rly brings Scourge down to core lvl. Scourge got shroudskills not locking out from weaponsskills. And the missing shroud hp got replaced with barrier mechanic. So if you want, you can say that Scourge lost the core shroud mechanic , but it is not rly a lose when it just get replaced by mechanics with equal effects while having no weaponskill lock out as cookie on top of that.

And by that logic Mirage would have another big trade off already: Mirage loses the normal dodge roll, with all its strengths (including losing the ability to jumpdodge and increasing dodge distance with that). Also Mirage dodge can be slowed down by cripple and chill, no core dodge can be affected like that). So why Mirage gets another trade off? It already lost a core mechanic, the core dodge (just like Reaper lost core shroud), lets just forget in both cases, that the replacing skills are just straight up better than the core ones. We don't care for that on Reaper, why we care for that on Mirage?

Inconsistent and unfair as hell.

To the FB example: I would not mind that FB has access to the core traits while in core mode, as long as the f skills get replaced by only 3 other skills and not by 15 (don't forget the merge skills on Soulbeast are also not instant while the pet f skills for the Ranger are instant because the pet has the casttime for its skills).You then just need to tone down the power lvl of these 6 skills by normal nerfs that they are not (much) stronger overall than the 3 core f skills alone on core Guard, means taking away around 50% of the power lvl from core skills and put that 50% power in the new 3 FB f skills (that is what i suggest to do to Soulbeast too).Also to make it an equally treatment to Soulbeast you would need some more loses on other places on FB. Because on Soulbeast not only the f skills get replaced while merging, the whole pet incl its passive skills (autoattack from pet as perma pressure) will be deleted/inactive while merging, means Ranger loses a completely passive and mobil independent acting dmg and facetank sourge (pets can bodyblock projectiles, pets can lower dmg from skills like Rev sword 3 by giving another target, pets distract the focus of the opponent by splitting it to 2 instead 1 target. Pets can hit while the Ranger is kiting and out of los from his own skills etc etc. There is so much more into the pet mechanic then just temporary replacing 3/4 f-skills with 3/4 other f-skills. So you would need something like: When FB switches in FB-mode one teammate in conquest match has to stay in keep for that duration (it will be instantly teleported into keep when FB goes into FB mode and get respawned at FBs current location when FB drops back into core mode) or FB only has half its dmg (or even better only half healing to make it contrary and unlogic to the supportive character/ orientation of the FB spec rofl) from other skills (weapons, utilities) while in FB mode, all passive traits are disabled or whatever, hard to compare because Guard has no pet mechanic as basic class mechnaic. But only then it would be the same as the Soulbeast treatment while merging. Just temporary replacing 3 f skills with 3 other f skills is not what happens to Soulbeast, its way more that Soulbeast LOSE while merging and that for only 3 different skills, which are not passive, which need los and cannot hit while the Ranger is not even in fight range with the target etc. (all stuff pets can do). The thing is FB is not designed as a mode, because you can just change the class mechanic from virtues by replacing the 3 f skills by other skills, while Virtues still stay the baseline class mechanic of Guard. But you cannot just replace f skills from Ranger by other skills and call that a day and a new elite spec. That is why they added new f skills to Ranger in form of a temporary mode because you cannot keep out Rangers completely from the pet mechanic (because that pet is the baseline class mechanic of Ranger which can't be removed completely).

While giving higher stats while merging to compensate for the lose in pet dmg is ofc completely contradicting to the inherent trade off which is there to prevent Soulbeast from being too much power creeped compared to core. So that should get removed. It is also not balanced and dumbs down Soulbeast when merging revives the pet. Because that means Soulbeast gets less punished by letting pets die (what is a playermistake and should be punished). That is something Soulbeast gets on top of core what should not exist (there is no good reason why Soulbeast should be less punished for pet misplays). When then the more in skills Soulbeast gets overall (from being able to switch between pet and merge skills) are still too strong compared to core you can just normally nerf the power lvl off these more buttons Soulbeast has compared to core (just as i explained for the FB f skills when Fb has 6 instead 3 f skills), measn lower their dmg as much as needed, higher cds from individual skills (pets and merge skills) and delete other rewards from skills which have more than one.

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:Also the Soulbeast tradeoff is dumb.

A similar "tradeoff" would be like removing an attunement from Weaver. You guys are just killing the fluidity of the spec and haven't even changed the pet swap trait timers to match the merge cooldown.

You mention weaver and talk about fluidity but weaver is less fluid than base ele when it comes to attunement swapping due to global cooldown on swap as well as only partial attunement. There is a reason why there have been complaint to make unravel an F5. I mean anyone could have seen this coming a mile off.

His example still makes sense, not in terms of fluid gameplay but in terms of making trade offs which delete skills/ active gameplay options from elite specs for no good reason, even though just normal nerfing/ adjusting the power lvl and cds of the elite skill ensemple that has more skills added over core would do the balance job too.

But people keep misinterpreting what a trade of is supposed to be. At a class mechanical level soul beast only gained additional functionality:Merge. Nothing was lost.

You say no good reason and they are removing options but elite specs are not supposed to be straight upgrades which, due to the lack of trade offs, a lot of then were. They were just class+. That's now mostly gone. Again, before you forget, at a class mechanical level.

So with that said, the inherent trade off by making Ranger losing pet skills for the duration of being merged is already working against the tendency of Soulbeast being power creeped compared to core. What is left and maybe (only maybe, often core traitlines are so strong and power creeped that it doesn't rly matter much, that the elite has few skills more while losing a very strong core traitline) needs further adjustments to prevent Soulbeast to be power creeped compared to core is the fact, that Soulbeats got few skills in addition over core. Because the additional mechanic Soulbeast gets on the class mechanical lvl does indeed trade offs itself by locking out pets while being merged. Means the only possible power creep can come from having few skills more than core. And that can be adjusted by normal nerfs and not by deleting parts of the Soulbeast mechanic by a clunky trade off that deletes skills and for that active gameplay options just as mechanically complexity from the Soulbeast kit.

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:Also the Soulbeast tradeoff is dumb.

A similar "tradeoff" would be like removing an attunement from Weaver. You guys are just killing the fluidity of the spec and haven't even changed the pet swap trait timers to match the merge cooldown.

You mention weaver and talk about fluidity but weaver is less fluid than base ele when it comes to attunement swapping due to global cooldown on swap as well as only partial attunement. There is a reason why there have been complaint to make unravel an F5. I mean anyone could have seen this coming a mile off.

His example still makes sense, not in terms of fluid gameplay but in terms of making trade offs which delete skills/ active gameplay options from elite specs for no good reason, even though just normal nerfing/ adjusting the power lvl and cds of the elite skill ensemple that has more skills added over core would do the balance job too.

But people keep misinterpreting what a trade of is supposed to be. At a class mechanical level soul beast only gained additional functionality:Merge. Nothing was lost.

You say no good reason and they are removing options but elite specs are not supposed to be straight upgrades which, due to the lack of trade offs, a lot of then were. They were just class+. That's now mostly gone. Again, before you forget, at a class mechanical level.

Wrong, Soulbeast loses pet f skills and the pet with his passive skills itself while merging already. That is already the needed trade off for Soulbeast that even adds skill ceiling by adding the decision between when to switch to merge skills and when to use the pet.

I don't know if you are missing the point on purpose out of sheer anger at what's happening but you're getting bogged down in effectivenes and playstyle again instead of what is actually there at the class mechanical level.

Ranger class mechanic: 2 pets.Soulbeast class mechanic: 2 pets and merge.

Soul beast has an opportunity cost for merging with the pet as you say. You gain it's stats/skills but lose it etc. But on the level of the mechanic itself it was just a pure functionality gain. This is why it's going down to one pet and merge.

Soulbeast has a playstyle tradeoff but not a class mechanical one. For what the trade offs are supposed to be it didn't have one now it's getting one.

Firebrands, Weavers, and Holosmiths don't have tradeoffs.

Yes they do. Firebrand loses their old virtues for new ones. Weavers lose the ability to single attune for being able to double attune. Holo lose their F5 to get photon forge.

The tradeoff aren't about effectiveness but about the class mechanic itself. You are saying they don't have one because the class mechanic is stronger or the build itself is strong. That's a balance issue not anything to do with the spec having a tradeoff or not.

With respect to their class mechanic soulbeast didn't lose anything to gain beast mode. Mechanically and thematically it makes sense that soul beast would be reduced to one pet. Again, very unsure how people didn't see this coming when Anet said they were looking to add tradeoffs to the specs that didn't have them.

Soulbeast lose all pet skills while being merged. That is a directly to the elite pointed trade off. That Soulbeast still has more buttons compared to core just like FB btw (more skills that can be chained) by being able to switch between 2 different mechanics (it is a SWITCH not an on top addition) has to be adjusted by lowering the overall power lvl of the more button ensemble. That can be done by normal nerfs and not by deleting parts of the elite mechanic itself.

It's not about having more buttons and no part of the elite mechanic is being removed. It's part of all of core that is being removed to make room for the elite mechanic, like every other spec in the game.

Why is it so hard to understand losing skills when merged is not s tradeoff when you have
just gained the option to merge
. At a mechanical level it's s pure gain and now it's not. For the last time :

Core: 2 pets - core mechanic.Slb now: 2 pets and beat mode - pure gain since you still have two pets and a new mode
regardless of if you lose your pet and it's skills during merge
it's the fact nothing is lost to gain the new mode.Slb then: 1 pet and beast mode - something had been lost to gain beast mode. A trade off at a class mechanical level.

It's really so easy to understand.

I am going to give up though since it is clear now you don't really understand what Anet meant by tradeoffs at all.

I think you don't understand and also never played Soulbeast. The trade off is directly pointed to have a decision making about choosing when to use merge skills and when to use pet skills. You don't have both at same time. This is a trade off and when you cannot understand this basic thing than i am the one giving up trying to explain the obvious. The only on top thing Soulbeast factual got over core is some more skills they can chain AFTER ANOTHER, while the fact that they can SWITCH between 2 different mechanics is already trade offed by the need to CHOOSE which one to use at a specific situation in a fight and not being able to use both AT SAME TIME. To make Soulbeast not overperform and for that not being an upgrade compared to core you only need to nerf the power lvl of the more button skill ensemble from Soulbeast to the lower power lvl from the core skill ensemble with less available buttons (what isn't even remarkable lower, thats why there are very strong core Ranger builds completely equally alternatives to Soulbeast and viable on same lvl as Soulbeast). Because more buttons to CHAIN AFTER ANOTHER is all what Soulbeats got over core what was not trade offed already by the inherent trade off with the need to CHOOSE BETWEEN 2 different mechanics which EXCLUDE each other.

It shows in ur first paragraph that u have zero clue the difference of a trade off vs just more options. With soulbeast u GET THE ADDED OPTION to merge and gain 3 extra pet skills AND extra stats if the situation calls for it OR stay un merged or un merge if merged to GAIN access to the ai pet and it's one pet skill. The difference is with a real trade of that choice would not be there. A real trade off would have been u can swap while merged as a soulbeast between two pets but cant un merge.It's not a trade off when u can freely swap between the two whenever(on cd of course). Ur acting like it's a trade off because u dont have the 3 pet skills and stat bonus as a soulbeast while still retaining the ai pet and its skill which is wrong.

And as trade off you LOSE the whole pet mechanic while merging. Simple. Core ranger has 100% pet uptime, Soulbeast has 50% pet uptime and 50% merge skills uptime. Seems not like an upgrade just like a switch compared to core in terms of mechanic. it balance out itself. the only thing that is not balanced out inherently is that Soulbeast gets more skills available and that can be solved with normal nerfing power lvl of skill ensembles.

As said additional stat boni for merging are not necessary and can be removed just as the ability to revive pets with merging. Soulbeast can get stat penalty on pets and stat penalty when merged, that would be no problem and would be just the same than i suggested by nerfing merge and pet skills (nerf dmg, delete double/ triple rewards, higher cds on individual skills).

Honestly anet should have just made it simple so u guys wouldn't have just gotten used to a overloaded spec with its espec just literally being added onto ur core adding more versatility lol. They shoulda just made soulbeast pet less full stop and u get abilities based on pet chosen , that's a trade off.

No that is not a trade off, that is simply not a Ranger anymore. What defines Ranger (no matter on what spec) is, that it does have petsrunning with him. A completely petless spec would not be a Ranger anymore. During a Daredevil aside from all differences it has to core Thief still has initiative as baseline class mechanic because it would not be a Thief without that anymore. That is why Guards still have Virtues, they are just different designed on FB, just as they are different on DH. Giving Ranger some new f skills and no pets at all anymore would remove the baseline class mechanic of Ranger. It would become a different kind of Mesmer (when having 4 f-skills) or another kind of Guard (when having only 3 f skills). So a completely petless only on f-skills based elite spec is no option at all because that would not be a Ranger anymore.So the way Daredevil is designed as elite makes it completely unnecessary to give Daredevils the possibility to switch back to core mechanic, because the elite mechanic doesn't keep Daredevil out from the core mechanic that defines Daredevil as being some kind of Thief in the first place (Daredevil has permanently access to initiative mechanic). The elite mechanic doesn't consum the baseline class defining core mechanic in the first place, while merging does replace the baseline class defining mechanic (having pets) and for that it can't be a permanent replacement. That is why beastmode is designed as a MODE, in which the Ranger can drop in and out. And to prevent power creep the MODE locks out pet skills temporary as inherent compensation. Still all in all Soulbeast has more buttons it can use after another compared to core TRUE (just as Ele has even way more skills than a Soulbeast or even a FB), but that can be normally balanced by nerfing pet stats and Ranger stats while being merged and by nerfing pet and merge skills directly (lower dmg, less other rewards, higher cds). That way you prevent power creep from Soulbeast elite without killing mechanical complexity, tactical deepness and skill ceiling Soulbeast has more than core Ranger.

@"Twilight Tempest.7584" said:The "trade-offs" being introduced are all part of Anet's efforts to retroactively rework elite specs to be alternative (horizontal) options to core specs, rather than improved (vertical) upgrades.

@bravan.3876, I agree that balance should be targeted towards individual overperforming specs and any overtuned aspects they may have, rather than creating simplistic "trade-offs" for the sake of the goal above, and calling it a day. That's lazy balancing, and there isn't a good track record of it thus far.

You're absolutely right that far too often, we see things altered to become clunky, unfun, or lower skill cap, often without even addressing the underlying issues. I'd nominate Mirage as the biggest proof of this.

I think where they're going wrong is their tendency to tunnel vision the trade-offs agenda towards altering the profession's core mechanic on e-specs--that is, the F skills. This is a very limited approach that may be convenient, but inhibits the granular attention to problem skills and traits that is actually needed.

What's worse, by focusing only on chopping something out of the profession mechanic, they're too often gutting the essence of the spec. Again, see both Mesmer e-specs.

I can only hope that after the dust settles from this mega update, they really hone in on the inevitable outliers, and are willing to make both the right adjustments, and revisit the bad ones.

Yes agree.

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