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Balance Update Update - PvP


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@"Psycoprophet.8107" said:I love how mirage losing its dodge and ranger one of its pets brings them together to suport each others supposed undeserved changes haha people are funny.Both changes are justifiable, I say thank u anet and good job :)

Haha these biased class main ppl in this forum without any clue about classmechanics of other classes they don't play (i just explained why the comparision of other specs don't have the ability to switch back to core mechanics with traited elite is not 100% accurate) are funny. I mean, i know why i do not suggest a one dodge change for Spellbreaker to compensate for the fact that the trade off from Spellbreaker actually has zero effect on the meta build with dagger and gs, even though Spellbreaker can facetank more on Demo amulet than even a Chaosline Mirage while having a standard rotation of active defense skills makes him literally unhitable at least as long as a Mirage using every endurance reggen tool it has (double energy sigil, adventure rune, Illusionary Ambush utility etc). Pure logically Spellbreaker would be a more accurate pick for the one dodge change (he even also does dmg with dodges, even more than a Mirage when it hits, without the need to get 3 clones up first and Warrior is not even balanced around and based around that dodge trait to make dmg, it just gets insane high unblockable dodge dmg ON TOP of his usual ways of dmg application, so the one dodge change would not even contradict his basic mechanic).

But as Multiclass player i also play Warrior and don't want it to become unnecessary clunky and overnerfed. And even on a Warrior with way higher basic defense and without contraditing his basic mechanics the one dodge change still would be an overnerf. Lucky you, i can't wait when Warrior gets stupid and unneeded changes and i argue/ fight for your main class then and you suddenly biasly agree to me.

The whole point is, that you can prevent Soulbeast from being power creeped compared to core in TWO different ways:

1). With a clunky trade off deleting active gameplay options and skills from the spec which are supposed to be there, also delete mechanically complexity, tactical deepness and skill ceiling from the class, while you just could reach the same goal (nerfing Soulbeasts power lvl compared to core) with2). normal nerf changes at the right places and just delete some rly op aspects from Soulbeast (like the pet revive when merging) which don't even get adressed by the trade off change.

But why use the superior way of normal nerfs for de-power-creeping Soulbeast which reach the goal of the clunky trade off just as well (even better) when you can take the worse way with clearly higher costs for the class (even contradicting the goal to make Soulbeast less noobfriendly by deleting skill ceiling and not touching actually rly op aspects it has). Because logic is strong with ppl in this forum and the "i don't care for how clunky other classes get as long as it is not my main" mentality, ppl who just want to see other classes get nerfs they have problems to beat and even are happy when get overnerfed, no matter that the class even gets easier and noobfriendly to play. But who care when the class will get dumbed down when it will be unplayable anyway? GG buddy, well played Warrior main!

As a multiclass player i want all classes to not be clunky and overnerfed, i want all classes to get fair treatment because i care for an overall fun and skillful game and don't only care for me alone having fun on my main. And deleting skill ceiling or making specs completely unplayable by unlogical changes completely contradicting their basic mechanics is simply not good for the game as a whole. This inconsistent trade off agenta is a big mess and very bad executed even on elite specs that had no inherent trade offs right from release (Chrono, Daredevil as examples) and for that could rly get some "trade off treatment".

Sure compared to what happens to Mesmer specs (and in parts also to FA Ele with the Obsidian change) Soulbeast can be happy, the planned trade off is not completely unlogical and contradicting to the basic core nature of Ranger and the basic nature of Soulbeast, it will be playable and not overly clunky. But why go an inferior balance way with trade off just for the sake of having a trade off when you can reach the same goal of not power creeping Soulbeast compared to core in a way doesn't delete skill ceiling, tactical deepness and mechanically complexity from the class, simply by normal nerfs will tone down the power lvl of the more-button-Soulbeast-skill-kit compared to core just as well? Makes no sense to me.

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SCRAPPER: I think the healing turret nerf is overkill directed at nerfing Holo. It is getting nerfed worse than any other heal pretty much. On the other side of this, you all are really forcing Scrapper to only be viable by taking the inventions line AND alchemy lines. Please reconsider this. Allow scrapper to be traited for more than tank- because you frankly haven't given it the ability to be a tank in pvp, Tank scrapper, regardless of how you look at it, is not at all viable right now: It does little to no damage with virtually non-existent party support, and it is easily forced off point by any damage-focused class or CC (and it’s easily killed 1v2, especially with so little access to stab/stunbreaks). It isn’t capable of effectively filling the tank role in the way ele and guard can. Heck, Holo can tank better and heal more! After this next patch, scrappers will be completely forced into bringing both the alchemy and inventions traitlines just to survive. Scrapper has no alternative method of healing outside of the heal skill (because impact savant is a joke until you are hitting 3+people/second with aoe)... so, with the f5 med pack drop gone from the last balance patches, to deal with condi and any damage all, we now are going to be forced into always bringing bulwark gyro (waste of space) along with the terrible medic gyro (to try and utilize anti corrosion plating). If you slot ANY OTHER TRAITLINE you will have to bring purge gyro (supreme waste of space) just to deal with condi- and that, of course, will be in the place of a necessary stunbreak or utility. For a melee class that is supposed to be mid-range damage + tanky, these changes will make it the equivalent of a thief minus the damage, mobility, and stealth. Scrapper is not exactly tanky in terms of handling damage... How is this supposed to compete with a war or rev... or anything for that matter.

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Sry for answering different posts 1 by 1 but there were so many i missed a lot of them first.

@Sigmoid.7082 said:Core: 2 pets - core mechanic.Slb now: 2 pets and beat mode - pure gain since you still have two pets and a new mode regardless of if you lose your pet and it's skills during merge it's the fact nothing is > lost to gain the new mode.It's really so easy to understand.

Is it? Because you didn't understand, you are ignoring completely the difference between Soulbeast MODE and other elite specs just modifying class defining core mechanics while keeping the class defining core mechanic permanetly available. Like a lot of ppl here coming with a flawed comparision about why other classes can't go back to core mode when speced in elite while i explained very well in a previous post why Ranger needs to have this and why Soulbeast is for that reason created as a MODE the Ranger can drop in and out. No other spec needs to have the possibility to drop back into the class defining core mechanic, because no other spec loses his class defining core mechanic when specing into an elite (all Thief specs have permanent access to the initiative mechanic because without that neither Daredevil nor Deadeye would be a Thief anymore. All Guardspecs have perma access to Virtues, just that the Virtues are differently designed. A Ranger that specs into Soulbeast is forced to give up class defining core mechanic of having a pet. That is the reason it is created as a temporary mode. If you would make Soulbeast a completely petless spec, only based on some different f skills it would not be a Ranger anymore). Merging is a trade off because it keeps Ranger out of its fundamental class defining basic core mechanic and is for that reason designed as temporary mode.

I mean it's pretty simple to understand. A soulbeast can play as a core having pet un merged and has access to passive and non passive pet skills same as a core ranger. With soulbeast u get the merge mechanic on top not instead of the core pet mechanic. That is not a trade off

Nothing is simple to understand, or why also you (as lot of other ppl) miss the difference between elites which don't keep the elite out of the fundamental class defining basic core mechanic (example initiative for all Thief specs) and an elite that does keep the elite out of the fundamental class defining basic core mechanic (having pets running with you) and is for that reason designed as a temporary MODE. So the comparision between a Fb or Daredevil which cannot drop back into core mode on demand is inaccurate. Merging is a trade off because it keeps Ranger out of its fundamental class defining basic core mechanic and is for that reason designed as temporary mode, otherwise Soulbeast would not be a kind of Ranger anymore.

Yes Soulbeast can be played same as core Ranger when ignoring merging completely. That is no problem, as long as Anet makes sure, that a Soulbeast that ignores merging and plays like a core Ranger is weaker than a core Ranger. That is all that is needed to make it a trade off. Soulbeast needs to be forced to use his elite mechanic otherwise it is subpar played and for that drops efficacy/ impact in terms of dmg/cc/ every reward you can imagine compared to core. With other words you ofc don't add stat gain while merging, you ofc make pets on Soulbeast weaker compared to core. You ofc don't remove punishment for pet misplays by letting Soulbeats revive pets with merging. If all these things are given, than merging has a trade off. That Soulbeast can play like a core Ranger is not a problem as long as a Soulbeast that ignores his elite mechanic and plays it subpar is clearly weaker than a core Ranger. Ofc you can do that with a clunky trade off with removing one pet (that will also remove skill ceiling/ tactical deepness and mechanical complexity from the spec, it also ignores what a big deal an inactive pet while merged already is) while not even solving and deleting op aspects (like the pet revive from merging) from Soulbeast, or you go the better way by simple stat penalty and normal nerfs to merge and pet skills.

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@"Cal Cohen.2358" said:Hi Everyone,

We wanted to swing by with an update on the balance patch and respond to some of the main feedback points that we’ve seen. At this point we’re mostly locked down for the release, but we’re still gathering feedback and continuing some investigation for future work.

For reference, the initial post can be found here: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/96744/balance-patch-preview-pvp

0.01There’s been a lot of discussion around CC skills and if all of them should deal minimal damage. We agree that it shouldn’t be a hard rule and there’s room for exceptions. We won’t be making any adjustments to these for the initial update, but expect some changes as we continue to evaluate things moving forward. Even for the exceptions, hard CC skills still won’t be near the top of the damage range, but there’s room to work with above 0.01. In some cases it may make sense for a skill to not have any CC and instead be a higher damage skill, but these would need to be game-wide changes and something that we’ll be discussing with the skills team.

General balance concernsWe’ve read all the feedback and seen the concerns about future metas and the viability of certain professions and specializations after the update. After the patch goes out, we’ll be continuing to iterate as we gather more data and feedback based on actual gameplay. We’re prepared to act quickly in response to anything egregious that pops up, whether it’s an individual build greatly overperforming or a heavy skew of the meta in any particular fashion (unkillable tanks, dominant condition builds pushing out any power builds, etc). Once any major wrinkles are ironed out, we’ll settle back into the faster cadence that we mentioned previously as we work toward improving balance across the board.

Additional changes

  • Concealing Restoration: Reduced stealth duration from 2 seconds to 1 second.
  • Rending Shade: Reduced number of boons stolen from 2 to 1.
  • Assassin's Signet: Increased cooldown from 20 seconds to 30 seconds.
  • Leeching Venoms: Reduced maximum stacks of spider venom provided by this trait from 6 to 2.
  • Malicious Backstab: Reduced power coefficients from 1.2/2.4 to 0.9/1.8
  • Smokescreen: Increased cooldown from 35 seconds to 45 seconds
  • Lightning Rod: Reduced power coefficient from 1.5 to 1.2

There’s still a lot of work to do, but this update should give us a good starting point to build from and we’re excited to see where things go.-The Systems Team

Your changes are terrible unless you work to reduce evasion/evade frames in the game from heroes like thief, mesmer, etc

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I'm just waiting for the day I hear that ArenaNet got their shit together and let Mirages dodge twice in PvP again. I'm disappointed that it is not this day. Until then, I'll be playing Classic WoW, which is doing well for the record. Probably has more players than GW2 since WoW's subscriber count is currently double of what it was before Classic released, so it is definitely not dying like some of you seem to believe. They're also advertising for the game on Pornhub atm.Imagine having to get used to a different playstyle and huge changes to class mechanics once you go in PvP just because the developers don't know how to balance things. Getting your central and iconic spec mechanic (which you also learn to play around on any other class) cut in half... is not fucking fun. It's a cop-out. It's not sustainable. They'll have to change it, mark my words.

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@Nascull.5842 said:game patches are based on casual players that cannot handle the lose of a battle they complain and complain infinite (instead of studying a counter build setup) until the game is boring and evry class is kinda playable by a kid having down sydrome u will lose veteran players anet but im sure u guys do not care about that as long the new 1nes stream in that buy blindfolded gems anet just follows the gembuyers like a man follows his thing in pants

Incorrect, only very few builds are viable in PVP (bursty skills with life saving skills). Its a burst or be burst gameplay, and 80% of all available options are completely useless as they rely on hp and toughness..... the damage is far too high for what the class was designed to take. Many like me do not want to be locked into small number of class/build that we don't enjoy, not here to work for frame and rewards on a video game....we simply here to have fun.

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@"Cal Cohen.2358" said:We’re prepared to act quickly in response to anything egregious that pops up, whether it’s an individual build greatly overperforming or a heavy skew of the meta in any particular fashion (unkillable tanks, dominant condition builds pushing out any power builds, etc). Once any major wrinkles are ironed out, we’ll settle back into the faster cadence that we mentioned previously as we work toward improving balance across the board.

During this time, is fixing anything that significantly under performs considered a "Major wrinkle"? Is the team willing to revert changes including the supposed trade offs?

Or are we going to be suck in a situation where even if they are bad, the staunch desire to have those specific trade offs will just be supplemented with buffs in other areas?

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@reikken.4961 said:Lower hp on Svanir/Chieftan in Forest of Niflhel to match the global damage drop.Also the npcs in Legacy of the Foefire.

Actually they shouldn't lower the hp they should keep i up to make going for them a risk and requiers co operative action again. I like the idea of them being strong enough that most builds on a given will not be able to solo them anymore.

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@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:Forwarding this here so a Dev can see it~

Nerf Smokescreen so it only pulses blind once every 2 seconds.Increase duration to 8 seconds, so it can pulse four times.Keep the projectile destruction.Reduce cooldown to 40 seconds. 45 is a bit high.

OR

Reduce the radius of Smokescreen to 240.Reduce cooldown to 40 seconds. 45 is a bit high.

look at other project hate abilities.realize that they are all MUCH worse then smoke screen.

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:Forwarding this here so a Dev can see it~

Nerf Smokescreen so it
only pulses blind once every 2 seconds.
Increase duration to 8 seconds, so it can pulse four times.Keep the projectile destruction.Reduce cooldown to 40 seconds. 45 is a bit high.

OR

Reduce the radius of Smokescreen to 240.
Reduce cooldown to 40 seconds. 45 is a bit high.

look at other project hate abilities.realize that they are all MUCH worse then smoke screen.

All the classes that have projectile hate also have more passive defenses overall, and often don't have people perpetually whining about when they do anything that evades damage if the evade was timed properly.

You don't need to sell this nerf to me as if skills can't be better or worse based on how brittle the class that is using them is.Nerf what you want. Thieves will adapt.

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@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:Forwarding this here so a Dev can see it~

Nerf Smokescreen so it
only pulses blind once every 2 seconds.
Increase duration to 8 seconds, so it can pulse four times.Keep the projectile destruction.Reduce cooldown to 40 seconds. 45 is a bit high.

OR

Reduce the radius of Smokescreen to 240.
Reduce cooldown to 40 seconds. 45 is a bit high.

look at other project hate abilities.realize that they are all MUCH worse then smoke screen.

All the classes that have projectile hate also have more passive defenses overall, and often don't have people perpetually whining about when they do anything that evades damage if the evade was timed properly.

You don't need to sell this nerf to me as if skills can't be better or worse based on how brittle the class that is using them is.Nerf what you want. Thieves will adapt.

ofc they will, entire class design revolves around spamming 1 ability. as long as 1 ability is overperforming thief will be overperforming.some screen = feedback+veil+pulsing blind field

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@Mbelch.9028 said:Absolutely no effort to fix Firebrand, which is going to super overperform in this patch. Yikes and good luck with that.Burnbrand is going to dominate, as are other specs.

But, but, thief!?!?!?! We have to complain about thief, nothing else will be op just thief... (according to all the forum complainers who have set a new standard of complaining)

Sarcasm off, I agree with you.

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Primed light beam went from 3.0 to 0.01...cool now the best elite is a wet noodle knockback.

100% power coefficient reduction on all CC skills is pretty extreme. Definitely need to evaluate this change because there are a lot of skills that happen to have CC, but I don’t think their identity is in the CC.

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@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:Forwarding this here so a Dev can see it~

Nerf Smokescreen so it only pulses blind once every 2 seconds.Increase duration to 8 seconds, so it can pulse four times.Keep the projectile destruction.Reduce cooldown to 40 seconds. 45 is a bit high.

OR

Reduce the radius of Smokescreen to 240.Reduce cooldown to 40 seconds. 45 is a bit high.Lets start with that smokescreen alrdy lasts 9 seconds and blind 9 times. Bug?Feature? Anet?What radius 240? Thats alrdy 240 according to wiki.This pretty much combine necromancers utilities CPC and well of darkness. 30/35s cd. CPC is not exact the same but you get the point, i guess? So its like ahead of any of these utilities and its pretty much 2 in 1 for super low cd. Suggestion below that would be taking parts of it but not too strong at once.I would give it 6s duration, ~180 radius, 40-45s cd, pulse blind once per 2 seconds.

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