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All Future Elite Specs are limited by the Core Revenant's Class Mechanics


Knighthonor.4061

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for years, each class only had 1 Elite Spec to make judgment on how the whole Elite Spec concept was going to work.

it suppose to give each class a new play style, that makes it unique from its parent class. WIth Unique Elite Spec mechanical spin to the core class mechanics.

But for Revenant we did not see such a thing. Two Expansions, and Two Elite Specs later and Nothing about the Revenant's core Mechanics ever change with either of the Elite Specs.There are just add ons to go with them.

This is something I wanted to bring to the attention. That Our Core Mechanics (Legends Stances/Swap, Energy/Upkeep) these seem to be a burden on what creative design concepts the Revenant could get with future Elite Specs.

At this point, I would prefer the Core Revenant gets a new redesign goal for Developers, that can allow more creative freedom for future Elite Specs.

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@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:Honestly I don't see a problem with them making more legends and just adding stuff to the class. The problem with changing core functionality is that it doesn't always work well. Yes, the Scourge and Firebrand are good, but the Weaver, Mirage, and Holosmith are bad.

I don't think Holosmith is bad. If anything, I enjoy it a lot.

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Herald literally saved the Revenant after the release of Heart of Thorns, it’s no mystery if every meta build out there uses Glint, at least in sPvP/WvW, and in hardcore PvE Revenant had no places until Path of Fire, with the exception of hand kitting for Deimos, and now it has a better dps role with the awkward Renegade, and if Glint is so prevalent it’s because the specialization doesn’t have a huge energy constraint, the skills use upkeep and not energy.

Nevertheless the game is destined to have more specializations coming, so the Revenant cannot afford to lean on Herald to fix its own issues anymore, and we can see with Renegade that not only the specialization deepen the issues of core Revenant, but also comes with its own issues.

I said it, and I’ll say it again, the energy on Revenant is not the issue, the issue is the lack of proper energy renewal, or generation, call it whatever you want, because unlike other resource management in the game, such as life force or initiative, the Revenant has no mean to renew its energy except waiting while auto-attacking for the passive regeneration, and I think we can all admit it’s not a very compelling gameplay. There is of course legend swapping to refill your energy, but legend swap doesn’t give you energy, it resets your energy to 50%, which means if you have energy left before the legend swap, you’ll lose it, so you want to drain as much energy as possible during the legend swap cooldown period, but if you drain to much you’ll end up having to auto-attack like a bot, and it also means you don’t want to use energy heavy skills. Therefore in PvE the best rotation for Shiro, Mallyx, and Jalis, is to use the upkeep skill and then go on with your weapon rotation until the energy wears out, which is quite boring, and in sPvP/WvW you just don’t have the same level of flexibility as other professions.

I’m convinced that the Revenant should always start combat with 100% energy, because starting at 50% energy, and always resetting at 50%, means you’ll almost never be above 50%, with the exception of WvW zerg fights where you can be in combat for a long time while using only few skills, and because you are most of the time below 50% traits like Equilibrium and Shrouding Mists work partially. Then legend swapping needs to generate energy, instead of resetting at 50%, and I think legend swapping should give 35% energy back, and weapon swapping give 15% energy back, it’d promote greater use of secondary weapons. Of course some skills such as Banish Enchantment would need to have a cooldown on them (around 4 seconds) in order to avoid strong opening attacks, and some traits and skills would also need to be looked at. At last some skills should grant energy back under some conditions, such as Pain Absorption renewing 2% energy per condition transferred to you, or Duelist's Preparation renewing 5% energy if it successfully blocks an attack …

This is not going to fix every issues on Revenant, but it’ll make it more enjoyable to play, and less frustrating. There are other issues in need to be looked at, such as the lack of good mobility skills, Grasping Shadow and Unrelenting Assault need an enemy to be used and therefore are good to engage but useless to disengage, and Surge of the Mists is the only correct disengage skill we have, unlike other professions which have more than one option to disengage. The fact that some old design choices, which aren’t relevant today, are still part of the Revenant makes the profession really shaky, such as Pain Absorption, it made sense when Mallyx was about copying conditions, today it’s less the case, and even with traits like Pulsating Pestilence it still feels out of place in its current state. Revenant also lacks good condition cleanse options, at the moment only Ventari is good to remove conditions, Jalis also has a condition remover but it’s the heal and therefore has a high cooldown; so the Revenant is weak because it has a hard time to cleanse the necessary amount of condition that needs to be cleanse in both sPvP and WvW, and it also lacks stun breaks that don’t cost half of the energy, only the Empty Vessel trait is good in that regard, and in fact if condition cleansing and stun breaking is so bad on Revenant it’s because they have been shoe-horned into skills with other properties, only because the Revenant needed those options but didn’t have the luxury of utility choice, so the utility need to fill several properties, but at the end are useless because of an excessive energy cost and/or cast time.

I haven’t covered other issues, which cannot be fixed at this point, such as the low amount of base weapons, or the lack of utility personalization, so on and so worth, but yes Revenant was wonky at birth, it could be good today, but it needs a severe rebalance.

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^ Firebrand wasn't compromised by the Dragon Hunter spec. FB uses different function skills, and their current used builds do mix mantras, meditations and shouts without too much problems, providing great support builds or powerful condition ones (and there's even some players roaming with pure poweer FB with good success).

The same happens with other classes, but not with the Revenent: the current best dps build for PvE raids is Renegade, sure, but if you want a build for PvP or WvW you need Herald. Which has nothing bad, but if you follow any stream you will find Phantaram using the best Weaver He coud made, Caith using Holosmith, Arken with Firebrand, even Helseth with Mirage... Then you see Sindrener and He keeps using DD, because Deadeye is worse, despite you can find a decent amount of DE in PvP; but finally you reach revenantland, and there you will find 0 Renegades. If you follow any channel in Twitch you will notice that seems like PoF wasn't released for Rev, because remains mostly unused.

I guess that maybe could happen the again in the third expansion, because I won't give up Glint for a legend which is worse in competitive gameplay. If the utilities are trash I won't trade Glint for a bit more damage and a new (also trashy) weapon.

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@Buran.3796 said:The same happens with other classes, but not with the Revenent: the current best dps build for PvE raids is Renegade, sure, but if you want a build for PvP or WvW you need Herald. Which has nothing bad, but if you follow any stream you will find Phantaram using the best Weaver He coud made, Caith using Holosmith, Arken with Firebrand, even Helseth with Mirage... Then you see Sindrener and He keeps using DD, because Deadeye is worse, despite you can find a decent amount of DE in PvP; but finally you reach revenantland, and there you will find 0 Renegades. If you follow any channel in Twitch you will notice that seems like PoF wasn't released for Rev, because remains mostly unused.

I don't see what the OP sees is the problem ... Renegade has a significantly different flavour than Herald or even Core. Now that's a personal opinion and it's easy to debate what the differences are between how we feel ...

... but, I have to disagree with the OP on the fact that the Rev mechanic will be a burden for future especs .. because Anet has shown that the flavour of the mechanics can change (e.g., Scourge).

So in short, as long as we have meta, it may be the case that an espec sees little action in desired game areas. Anet has demonstrated an willingness to make large deviations on mechanics for the epecs, so the OP's concern is unfounded.

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Revenant was launched with Herald so everything that is "core" is by name only. The limited legend system mixed with limited traits means there's only so much "builds" you can come up with as Revenant while other classes enjoy more freedom in gameplay. The class mechanics is very limiting. You're limited to energy and cooldown. While Herald does an excellent job with it's upkeep skills, it only served as a band-aid fix over the core issues which is energy. This problem is amplified with Renegade. Heavy energy utilities and 3 new F-abilities competing for the same pool we are starving for.

Playing Renegade is a big risk because you stand to waste your energy which was a problem before PoF, just now amplified. Let's say you use impossible odds, then get CC'd you're wasting energy. Even if you turn it off, you'll never toggle it fast enough before throwing away ~5 energy. Swap legends over 0 energy means you throw all of that away, even if you really need to(stunbreak). Now let's look at Kalla. Dropping ANY of Kalla's wells(spirits) means you risk getting them CC'd which happens all the time, even in open world. Saying that the flavor is different is subjective. Sure you get a new legend and if you're a raider, you're doing pretty much the same thing you did prior to Renegade. Use some skill, blow energy, swap, repeat. If you're a PvPr/WvWr sure the flavor is different. If by flavor, you mean dog shit.

These concerns are very valid and date back well before the new forum. The main concern we had was the cooldown+energy limitation where having both means you're stuck in an awkward spot of doing the most damage/energy. That ultimately boiled down to using upkeep while autoattacking since doing anything else was a waste. The frustrations and concerns coming from myself and fellow Revenants is these issues were vocalized long before Kalla was developed but the Devs decided to double down on the problem and give us an elite spec which amplified the problem.

The problem I see is a small energy pool combined with lots of ways to throw it away. You are constantly throwing away energy as Revenant. Using sword 2/3 and having it hit trees or doors? Energy gone. Stowing Hammer 5 a quarter sec into casting? Energy AND cooldown gone. Using mace 3 and flying past your target? Why did they even change this skill... As a Renegade? You're even better at this! The whole legend is countered by movement and CC which is abundant in this game. All of shortbow's skill can be countered or negated by simply moving with the exception of SB1 and SB5.

There's lots of good ideas in these forums. Bigger energy pool, starting combat with 100 energy, skills that give back energy. I can't say what is best for the class only to agree that it's a problem which Kalla did not help.

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@Obtena.7952 said:

I don't see what the OP sees is the problem ... Renegade has a significantly different flavour than Herald or even Core. Now that's a personal opinion and it's easy to debate what the differences are between how we feel ...

But has not, because Renegade in raids is played exactly the same as condi Herald (mace + axe + staff) replacing a traitline, and outside raids isn't played, so there isn't a "new flavour" to paladate. Maybe is even more static because one of the new buffs do requite to not dodge and stay at max endurance to get the +33% crit chance.

The whole energy concept in the class is weird, because your only source of energy is passive regeneration at 5 units x second. Swapping legends don't add energy, just reset the amount to 50, using auto attacks doesn't add energy (as do the basic attacks in games a Diablo III), and you don't have traits to enhance that energy management (as the Thief has), which to some extent is ok because those would be probably mandatory if existed. But having huge energy cost in both utilities and weapon skills while also having regular cooldowns (in a class which can't customize the skill selection) is a bad design. Take the current Engineer, put energy cost on their skills, prevent Him from freely chose the utilities and you will have a very close thing to that the Revenant is. That's why Glint is so good: no cooldowns, low cost on passive effects, active effects with no energy costs and only cooldowns (and the skills are useful).

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@Buran.3796 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

I don't see what the OP sees is the problem ... Renegade has a significantly different flavour than Herald or even Core. Now that's a personal opinion and it's easy to debate what the differences are between how we feel ...

But has not, because Renegade in raids is played exactly the same as condi Herald (mace + axe + staff) replacing a traitline, and outside raids isn't played, so there isn't a "new flavour" to paladate. Maybe is even more static because one of the new buffs do requite to not dodge and stay at max endurance to get the +33% crit chance.

The whole energy concept in the class is weird, because your only source of energy is passive regeneration at 5 units x second. Swapping legends don't add energy, just reset the amount to 50, using auto attacks doesn't add energy (as do the basic attacks in games a Diablo III), and you don't have traits to enhance that energy management (as the Thief has), which to some extent is ok because those would be probably mandatory if existed. But having huge energy cost in both utilities and weapon skills while also having regular cooldowns (in a class which can't customize the skill selection) is a bad design. Take the current Engineer, put energy cost on their skills, prevent Him from freely chose the utilities and you will have a very close thing to that the Revenant is. That's why Glint is so good: no cooldowns, low cost on passive effects, active effects with no energy costs and only cooldowns (and the skills are useful).

So Renegade plays exactly like ONE other build in ONE game element so you conclude it's not different enough? I think that's a very cherry picked argument.

The fact remains that if ANet want, they can deviate from the current mechanic in future especs, just like Scourge does from Necro. The OP is wrong and no, Renegade is not just a variation on the condi Herald just because of a similarity in raids.

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@Obtena.7952 said:

So Renegade plays exactly like ONE other build in ONE game element so you conclude it's not different enough? I think that's a very cherry picked argument.

The fact remains that if ANet want, they can deviate from the current mechanic in future especs, just like Scourge does from Necro. The OP is wrong and no, Renegade is not just a variation on the condi Herald just because of a similarity in raids.

Renegade gameplay is mostly the same as condi Revenant in PvE raids.Renegade has no viable builds in PvP.Renegade has no viable builds in WvW: power hammer Herald is better dealing damage at range, Ventari healer is better at support and Jalis/Glint + Mallyx is better at boonsharing and/or enduring punishement. You can't even use it for roaming because the short bow has no defense/mobility and if you use a condi build with mace + axe + staff then better take Herald + Glint instead of Kalla and Renegade because the first spec is stronger.

So you can use the Renegade "snowflake flavour" at open world PvE, Personal Story and dungeons/fractals, despite using the short bow or Kalla means losing dps and Renegade itself has lower sustain than the power builds. You can complete the new maps in a week, the PoF story in another and then the Renegade is almost done, because you probably don't want to play the hardest content using the short bow or the pulpy cats Kalla brings to the table. No Ranger is using Spirits, neither Guardians are using Spiritual Weapons; ANet provided us a gameplay style unused by other classes.

And Scourge doesn't changes too much the gameplay with the Necro/Reaper: is supposed to be a support spec, but what mostly does is to put debuff/strip boon from targets and nuke places with AoE condition bombs; mostly what Necro wells already did, just now is stronger.

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You're missing the OP's point though... What he means is that other classes' elite specs augment the way their existingclass mechanics work... Revenant's elites just tack something else onto the end of them. Which I guess is fine, but like, it's pretty lazy and it will (for the most part) make that elite spec only good at one thing.

A pseudo comparison would be to look at Ele. Their elites change the way they cycle through and use their four predetermined attunements. Both can still be used for the same different purposes that core Elementalists could already do--damage, heal, group boon support. But now the player has a choice in how they want to accomplish those goals, more powerful overloads with longer cool downs or a bunch of fast swaps and chained skill uses with weaver. Now, if Ele was built like revenant, Tempest and Weaver would just give them access to a new Fifth Element or Sixth Element, but change nothing about the other four. Maybe those new elements would be useful for some aspects of the game? Maybe not? But either way it's all pretty unexciting after the initial unveiling of which Element they decide to use because it ultimately does almost nothing to change the gameplay of the class.

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You're missing the OP's point though... What he means is that other classes' elite specs augment the way their existingclass mechanics work... Revenant's elites just tack something else onto the end of them. Which I guess is fine, but like, it's pretty lazy and it will (for the most part) make that elite spec only good at one thing.

That's not a global truth ... sure, SOME augment the classes, but there are some that also feel tacked on. Just have an objective look, you will see this is as true for any other class as this one. Revenants are not unique in this manner.

Daredevil is tacked on ... it's a thief with enhanced dodging mechanics. DH is tacked on ... it's simply a twist on Virtues. Reaper is tacked on ... it's a Chill-focused Necro. I could go on. I don't think i would be wrong in saying there are actually not that many especs that aren't simply a 'tacked' on (Scrapper is actually a different feel than Engi for instance, so is Scourge), but I can't say definitely because I haven't unlocked all the PoF especs yet.

To be completely open here ... Herald is a great example of a 'not-tacked-on' spec, so if the OP is complaining he doesn't have TWO non-tacked-on especs to fiddle with ... I would say he's got high expectations.

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@Obtena.7952 said:The fact remains that if ANet want, they can deviate from the current mechanic in future especs, just like Scourge does from Necro.

I'm actually not sure they can...

The professions we've seen totally changing the profession mechanic are ones for which the profession mechanic is something 'added on' rather than a core component of how the profession works. It's possible, and in some cases even advantageous, to play a warrior, guardian, thief, engineer, mesmer or necromancer without using any of the skills on their function bar. Obviously they'll all play better if you do make good use of those abilities, but they're more of an added bonus rather than being what makes the profession actually work. Which means that in each case, the skills on their function bar can be replaced by something entirely different, as long as what they replace it with still works with core traits and is roughly the same strength as what it replaced.

Even for rangers this is true: you could replace the pet with something else that provides an equivalent benefit, and the rest of ranger would still work. Soulbeast toys with this, in fact, albeit intended to be only a temporary thing rather than permanent.

For revenants and elementalists, though, attunement and legend swapping isn't just something that's added on, it's a core component of how the professions work. So any elite specialisation mechanic has to be something that's added to that mechanic, rather than rewriting it entirely. We're not going to see an elementalist elite spec that out-and-out replaces attunement swapping as the mechanic, nor are we going to see a revenant elite spec that out-and-out replaces legend swapping. What we have seen, thus far, is that elementalist elite specs change the way you interact with attunement swapping (while keeping the core idea of attunement swapping intact), while revenant elite specs give you additional options on your function bar and a new legend to swap to.

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@draxynnic.3719 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:The fact remains that if ANet want, they can deviate from the current mechanic in future especs, just like Scourge does from Necro.

I'm actually not sure they can...

The professions we've seen totally changing the profession mechanic are ones for which the profession mechanic is something 'added on' rather than a core component of how the profession works. .....

For revenants and elementalists, though, attunement and legend swapping isn't just something that's added on, it's a core component of how the professions work. So any elite specialisation mechanic has to be something that's added to that mechanic, rather than rewriting it entirely. We're not going to see an elementalist elite spec that out-and-out replaces attunement swapping as the mechanic, nor are we going to see a revenant elite spec that out-and-out replaces legend swapping. What we have seen, thus far, is that elementalist elite specs change the way you interact with attunement swapping (while keeping the core idea of attunement swapping intact), while revenant elite specs give you additional options on your function bar and a new legend to swap to.

I disagree. What is to stop Anet from making a Revenant elite spec that doesn't swap between Legends? I think it would be rather easy for the swap function to be turned on it's ear into something ... else. It can be anything Anet imagines it to be, just like popping shades isn't entering Shroud for Necro/Scourge. It's one thing to say it can't be done, it's another to say you can't imagine what it could be. Even better is that Anet has shown they are willing to do such things.

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I gotta chime in just to say, I absolutely love playing the Renegade. I just want to make sure that this opinion is represented on the forums as well. I'm all for balance and making sure the skills that we have are useable and feel good to play...but I would hate to see skills and stances disappear. Because I for one am having a blast on this spec.I'm running ascended zerker with ascended cele for trinkets. I feel like there is nothing I can't do. Support and healing allies. Damage. Survivability. I run sword sword and SB. Dropping a our heal by the boss and watch every one get nice heals while then dropping razorclaw out by the rangers to pump their bleeds. You can have such a wide spread effect on fights. The Renegade is a thing of beauty if played right. Oh and not to mention coming in with some alacrity for allies as well...so fun

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@draxynnic.3719 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:The fact remains that if ANet want, they can deviate from the current mechanic in future especs, just like Scourge does from Necro.

I'm actually not sure they can...

The professions we've seen totally changing the profession mechanic are ones for which the profession mechanic is something 'added on' rather than a core component of how the profession works. .....

For revenants and elementalists, though, attunement and legend swapping isn't just something that's added on, it's a core component of how the professions work. So any elite specialisation mechanic has to be something that's added to that mechanic, rather than rewriting it entirely. We're not going to see an elementalist elite spec that out-and-out replaces attunement swapping as the mechanic, nor are we going to see a revenant elite spec that out-and-out replaces legend swapping. What we have seen, thus far, is that elementalist elite specs change the way you interact with attunement swapping (while keeping the core idea of attunement swapping intact), while revenant elite specs give you additional options on your function bar and a new legend to swap to.

I disagree. What is to stop Anet from making a Revenant elite spec that doesn't swap between Legends? I think it would be rather easy for the swap function to be turned on it's ear into something ... else. It can be anything Anet imagines it to be, just like popping shades isn't entering Shroud for Necro/Scourge. It's one thing to say it can't be done, it's another to say you can't imagine what it could be. Even better is that Anet has shown they are willing to do such things.

Because, like elementalist and swapping attunements, revenant's entire 'thing' is swapping between legends - the reduced choice in utility skills being balanced through being able to have ten of them at a time when most professions have two.

So let's say that we did make a revenant without legend swap. How's that going to work?

You'd then just have five utility skills. If the elite specialisation's 'thing' is that it then gives you the freedom to choose the skills in your utility slots... then you've basically made an elite specialisation to make revenant like the other professions, except with an energy mechanic. Otherwise... well, whatever you get in the F1-F5 slots had better be pretty good to make up for having only five utility skills without being able to customise those five.

Something like the shades for Scourge isn't going to work. Scourge works because, as I said, shroud for necromancer is an added bonus. The profession as a whole isn't based around it the way that elementalist and revenant are based around their switching mechanics. Now, there's a lot they can do to play around with it, but I don't think we're ever likely to see a revenant elite spec that swaps it for something else.

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@draxynnic.3719 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@draxynnic.3719 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:The fact remains that if ANet want, they can deviate from the current mechanic in future especs, just like Scourge does from Necro.

I'm actually not sure they can...

The professions we've seen totally changing the profession mechanic are ones for which the profession mechanic is something 'added on' rather than a core component of how the profession works. .....

For revenants and elementalists, though, attunement and legend swapping isn't just something that's added on, it's a core component of how the professions work. So any elite specialisation mechanic has to be something that's added to that mechanic, rather than rewriting it entirely. We're not going to see an elementalist elite spec that out-and-out replaces attunement swapping as the mechanic, nor are we going to see a revenant elite spec that out-and-out replaces legend swapping. What we have seen, thus far, is that elementalist elite specs change the way you interact with attunement swapping (while keeping the core idea of attunement swapping intact), while revenant elite specs give you additional options on your function bar and a new legend to swap to.

I disagree. What is to stop Anet from making a Revenant elite spec that doesn't swap between Legends? I think it would be rather easy for the swap function to be turned on it's ear into something ... else. It can be anything Anet imagines it to be, just like popping shades isn't entering Shroud for Necro/Scourge. It's one thing to say it can't be done, it's another to say you can't imagine what it could be. Even better is that Anet has shown they are willing to do such things.

Because, like elementalist and swapping attunements, revenant's entire 'thing' is swapping between legends - the reduced choice in utility skills being balanced through being able to have ten of them at a time when most professions have two.

So let's say that we did make a revenant without legend swap. How's that going to work?

You'd then just have five utility skills. If the elite specialisation's 'thing' is that it then gives you the freedom to choose the skills in your utility slots... then you've basically made an elite specialisation to make revenant like the other professions, except with an energy mechanic. Otherwise... well, whatever you get in the F1-F5 slots had better be pretty good to make up for having only five utility skills without being able to customise those five.

Something like the shades for Scourge isn't going to work. Scourge works because, as I said, shroud for necromancer is an added bonus. The profession as a whole isn't based around it the way that elementalist and revenant are based around their switching mechanics. Now, there's a lot they can do to play around with it, but I don't think we're ever likely to see a revenant elite spec that swaps it for something else.

@draxynnic.3719 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@draxynnic.3719 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:The fact remains that if ANet want, they can deviate from the current mechanic in future especs, just like Scourge does from Necro.

I'm actually not sure they can...

The professions we've seen totally changing the profession mechanic are ones for which the profession mechanic is something 'added on' rather than a core component of how the profession works. .....

For revenants and elementalists, though, attunement and legend swapping isn't just something that's added on, it's a core component of how the professions work. So any elite specialisation mechanic has to be something that's added to that mechanic, rather than rewriting it entirely. We're not going to see an elementalist elite spec that out-and-out replaces attunement swapping as the mechanic, nor are we going to see a revenant elite spec that out-and-out replaces legend swapping. What we have seen, thus far, is that elementalist elite specs change the way you interact with attunement swapping (while keeping the core idea of attunement swapping intact), while revenant elite specs give you additional options on your function bar and a new legend to swap to.

I disagree. What is to stop Anet from making a Revenant elite spec that doesn't swap between Legends? I think it would be rather easy for the swap function to be turned on it's ear into something ... else. It can be anything Anet imagines it to be, just like popping shades isn't entering Shroud for Necro/Scourge. It's one thing to say it can't be done, it's another to say you can't imagine what it could be. Even better is that Anet has shown they are willing to do such things.

Because, like elementalist and swapping attunements, revenant's entire 'thing' is swapping between legends - the reduced choice in utility skills being balanced through being able to have ten of them at a time when most professions have two.

So let's say that we did make a revenant without legend swap. How's that going to work?

You'd then just have five utility skills. If the elite specialisation's 'thing' is that it then gives you the freedom to choose the skills in your utility slots... then you've basically made an elite specialisation to make revenant like the other professions, except with an energy mechanic. Otherwise... well, whatever you get in the F1-F5 slots had better be pretty good to make up for having only five utility skills without being able to customise those five.

Something like the shades for Scourge isn't going to work. Scourge works because, as I said, shroud for necromancer is an added bonus. The profession as a whole isn't based around it the way that elementalist and revenant are based around their switching mechanics. Now, there's a lot they can do to play around with it, but I don't think we're ever likely to see a revenant elite spec that swaps it for something else.

Plus if they made an elite spec for the Rev which took away legend swapping they would need to make a WHOLE bunch of utilities for us to choose from, just for that spec ALONE. They would need to offer a variation to all the builds it could have and should have, you don't want it having set utilities like the other spec's/core because then its at a HUGE Disadvantage because EVERYONE will know what your running. As soon as they see what class you are and you cant swap legends your toast, because without those legend swaps your at a loss for your utilities and the ability to adapt on the fly.

@Obtena.7952 said:

@draxynnic.3719 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:The fact remains that if ANet want, they can deviate from the current mechanic in future especs, just like Scourge does from Necro.

I'm actually not sure they can...

The professions we've seen totally changing the profession mechanic are ones for which the profession mechanic is something 'added on' rather than a core component of how the profession works. .....

For revenants and elementalists, though, attunement and legend swapping isn't just something that's added on, it's a core component of how the professions work. So any elite specialisation mechanic has to be something that's added to that mechanic, rather than rewriting it entirely. We're not going to see an elementalist elite spec that out-and-out replaces attunement swapping as the mechanic, nor are we going to see a revenant elite spec that out-and-out replaces legend swapping. What we have seen, thus far, is that elementalist elite specs change the way you interact with attunement swapping (while keeping the core idea of attunement swapping intact), while revenant elite specs give you additional options on your function bar and a new legend to swap to.

I disagree. What is to stop Anet from making a Revenant elite spec that doesn't swap between Legends? I think it would be rather easy for the swap function to be turned on it's ear into something ... else. It can be anything Anet imagines it to be, just like popping shades isn't entering Shroud for Necro/Scourge. It's one thing to say it can't be done, it's another to say you can't imagine what it could be. Even better is that Anet has shown they are willing to do such things.

I disagree completely with you. Anet as proven time and again that they dont like the rev, and this class needs alot of work and love because as much as I adore the class and its themes it when compared to the others does NOT bring the same feeling to the game. You want to know what a revenant is indicative of? Their desire for Esports. It was a class made to pay homage and function similarly to a MoBa character, such as those found in Smite and League. And before you start about how Im wrong let me explain how im right, and why they WONT ever change one damn thing about it.

Back before and around when HoT launched A-net wanted more than anything to be in the E-sports crowd but the issue was class balance and their ability to make set builds to be ran in their competitions. They lacked the ability or the potential to make pvp function like a MoBa they tried it with the siege option in SPvP and the eliet specs were designed to bring healers and tanks ( in some source or another) to the game. But the core class design and the core design of the game did not mesh well with this shift, and thus they lost their spot. The revenant was built around this mentality and is a class designed to function in this sort of environment, or as some would call it a "PvP only class" and it very much was at launch of HoT after its changes. It was not even desired in Raiding once so ever and only got a spot (if you could call it that) when condi rev was brought up to be at least somewhat comparative to the other classes condi specs.

Taking this into account the legend swapping was put in place to make it so there could be only a handful of revenants differing from one another, you hand bunker ventari, herald and its many incarnations ( herald as a whole should of been a base legend as glint was the only legend who meshed well with every single legend we had), power which was either shiro+jalis or Shiro+glint. And then for the longest time Mallyx had no place on the roster until they did some minor changes to give him a bit of relevance, but that came at the cost of shiros overall usefulness. The class has been up and down but nothing really has changed and they wont ever change it because of several fundamental reasons.

  • They are lazy and wont put the effort in, the class rework needed to even change the core mechanics would in their eyes not have the "Pay-off"
  • It would take "To many resources"
  • It in of itself would be expansion worthy due to the sheer amount of utilities it would need to stand a chance against the core class's even without their elite specs.
  • They still want to get into E-sports
  • They would need to offer more options for the current legends, and offer another legend and more use of the ones we have currently before changing the class with a spec this drastically. (Say they did do all of this and it could stand on its own two feet, why in the hell would anyone play core rev or the other specs? What would they bring to the table that it could not? Remember it has waaaaay more utilities to go through and can change its build WITHOUT legend swapping. And for the sake of the argument lets say they even cut out the energy cost? and energy in general? Why would you play core rev?)
  • It could destroy the small semblance of balance the game has.
  • People would want more for their class's because you cant let one be cooler than the other ( everything in this game is done for the sake of cool over practicality.)
  • In changing the core aspects of the class it looses its Identity. . .which is not a good thing as it is the only one honestly that seems to not be of the same cookie-cutter mold the others are.( each new spec makes the class's feel the same.. at least the rev has a very specific and unique theme that only it holds)
  • I doubt they would know how, or are even aware enough to do this right without breaking the class/game outright.

Not to mention all the stuff they would need to do to the core and other specs ( more utilities, more core legends and reworks to shortbow with maybe a removal of energy cost on weapon cast and a decision on either cooldowns or heavy energy costs.) This is WAAAAAY too much to expect from A-net for ONE class as they cant even get their shit together and give us a decent plot, or really figure out what they want this game to be. This in its whole is as much work as a New race/new mastery lines(as in depth as the HoT ones) or even both combined. And thats excluding everything the other classes would need to get as well ( new E-specs as well balancing of the old ones, and their cores to make room for the new ones.) This in of itself is an expansion level of content, and the issue is it focuses on one class that Im pretty sure the majority of the player base does not care about. I dont trust them not to botch it, or disembowel the class of anything that DOES make it cool and DOES make it fresh when compaired to the others because they simply are NOT the best dev's in the world.

Look how long it took them to get our legends to talk to us? That was something promised with HoT's Launch which was Two or so years ago! It was promised with the class's reveal and they still have yet to give us all the talks the spirits are aimed to make with us. The idle ones sure, but they are supposed to talk to us in content and even were teased to have story specific speech. ( I.E Glint would react to the events of PoF differently than Kalla and vice versa) This was crap that was said to launch with the class and only a small portion of it has made its way to the playerbase, and it took two whole years. And you expect with their ambitious desire to have yearly expansions to take the time and do something of this Caliber? Please. The best we would get is something half-way done and barely playable with at best some viability in open world and none anywhere else, only to get it smashed into the dirt in the next expansion to make way of "More of the status quo". This is what Rev is and as sad as that is to say and as someone who loves, and wants this class to get the love it needs to be less predictable and have diversity amongst the players who love it. I have NO FAITH in A-net to do something like this and I dont WANT them too because of the fear of what might happen to this class.

You seem to forget... They destroyed alot of class's in HoT and only fixed them because if they did not do so they would of lost a huge amount of their player base. Some spec's ( most) at launch were trash, PoF proved that they wont make that mistake again. And without the Rev having its own full team and having a bunch of cooks in its kitchen making it a beautiful full course meal, and them relying on a small handful of people to work on ALL THE CLASSES rev will never be as prestigious as its brethren which came before it. Its a class in limbo between the E-sports A-net wants so badly to be apart of , and the MMORPG that Guild wars 2 was meant to be and currently is as a whole.

this is what happens.. when dev's dont know what they want their game to be. And this is a pretty good sign we wont get a new class, new race or really anything new because they want all the Pay-off with none of the conviction to a set course. You cant set sail and then decided to change your ships direction and not expect to run into storms, and other things not on your map. They did and now they have to deal with what that is going to lead too, PoF is testament to that as the three parts of the game (core,HoT and PoF) seem completely unrelated with only PoF and Core having one thing in common. The difficulty in the maps, otherwise each feels alien to the other and seems to point too the infamous "Too many cooks in the kitchen" saying.( This games team, and devs have changed alot over the lifespan and early development of the game. It also has to do with Mo's and collin's differing opinions and views, as well their differing ideals as to what is fun and what is done respectively.)

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@Alchimist.4738 said:Herald literally saved the Revenant after the release of Heart of Thorns, it’s no mystery if every meta build out there uses Glint, at least in sPvP/WvW, and in hardcore PvE Revenant had no places until Path of Fire, with the exception of hand kitting for Deimos, and now it has a better dps role with the awkward Renegade, and if Glint is so prevalent it’s because the specialization doesn’t have a huge energy constraint, the skills use upkeep and not energy.

I just want to add that Revenant was quite meta for hardcore pve for about the first year of it's life. It wasn't until the boon changes and mesmer SoI nerf that it fell out of meta.

And also there was a hybrid viper Mallyx/Shiro build that was used meta in high end pvp for a few seasons before rev got hit with the nerf stick too many times. It's only because of the constant nerfs to sustain traits that non-glint builds just aren't able to compete the way they used to.

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It became common knowledge very swiftly after HoT released that the Revenant was too reliant on Glint to even come close to feeling like a complete class, but because it launched with its elite spec it never became a big enough practical problem for Anet to address. Now that we have Renegade and the option to spec out of Glint, the problems with the core Revenant design are being pushed to the forefront.

Honestly, though, I think these problems are not as big or difficult to solve as everyone thinks they are. Even the cooldown/energy thing is fine; the problems are just a matter of numbers tweaking. The bigger issue by far is that Revenants have no feeling of fluidity between their legends. Each legend is tied to a specific purpose which can't be customized, and legends do not impact weapon skills. It just makes them feel too rigid in their design.

The solution is pretty simple and should have been implemented from the beginning -

a.) give them 3-4 generic invocation utilities that can be slotted in to their existing legends. These utilities would be modified slightly based on the legend they are slotted into and would give Revenant players some ability to customize or tune their builds in the same way every other class can.

b.) OR give them a new core invocation legend that has a hybrid skillset and is always accessible as a 3rd legend option. This might justify removing weapon swap or altering the energy mechanic somewhat, although I'd wager that is very unlikely to happen at this point.

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@Einlanzer.1627 said:

Honestly, though, I think these problems are not as big or difficult to solve as everyone thinks they are. Even the cooldown/energy thing is fine; the problems are just a matter of numbers tweaking.

My desire of a ranged condi weapon was exclusively due the Phase Traversal nerfs: first (after five days) the add of a 5 secs cooldown and then (before the 6th month) the energy increase from 20 to 35 (a 75% increase). Now we have an useless short bow but still half of the classes can poke us at range because their mobility and disenganging tools are way better than our gap closers. Lets this sink: with a fresh swap to Shiro you use Phase Traversal and Unrelenting Assault and your energy becomes 0. You need at least seven seconds to even be able to land a second PT and if you do your energy is 0 again, so no skills to use outside auto attacks.

I don't want Buffs for the renegade or its weapon; neither want a revert of the Retribution traitline which made it useless (I'm now used to play with no stability). I want (for the next expansion) the comeback of our Phase Traversal. Just that.

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@draxynnic.3719 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@draxynnic.3719 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:The fact remains that if ANet want, they can deviate from the current mechanic in future especs, just like Scourge does from Necro.

I'm actually not sure they can...

The professions we've seen totally changing the profession mechanic are ones for which the profession mechanic is something 'added on' rather than a core component of how the profession works. .....

For revenants and elementalists, though, attunement and legend swapping isn't just something that's added on, it's a core component of how the professions work. So any elite specialisation mechanic has to be something that's added to that mechanic, rather than rewriting it entirely. We're not going to see an elementalist elite spec that out-and-out replaces attunement swapping as the mechanic, nor are we going to see a revenant elite spec that out-and-out replaces legend swapping. What we have seen, thus far, is that elementalist elite specs change the way you interact with attunement swapping (while keeping the core idea of attunement swapping intact), while revenant elite specs give you additional options on your function bar and a new legend to swap to.

I disagree. What is to stop Anet from making a Revenant elite spec that doesn't swap between Legends? I think it would be rather easy for the swap function to be turned on it's ear into something ... else. It can be anything Anet imagines it to be, just like popping shades isn't entering Shroud for Necro/Scourge. It's one thing to say it can't be done, it's another to say you can't imagine what it could be. Even better is that Anet has shown they are willing to do such things.

Because, like elementalist and swapping attunements, revenant's entire 'thing' is swapping between legends - the reduced choice in utility skills being balanced through being able to have ten of them at a time when most professions have two.

So let's say that we did make a revenant without legend swap. How's that going to work?

I don't know what it would be (again, it could be all kinds of things), but me not having an idea of what it could be doesn't mean it CAN'T be something that's not a legend swap.

I mean, just thinking blue sky here ... it could be as simple as a swap to a kit for different weapon skills, maintaining the current legend. Sure, that's kind of dumb, but you aren't swapping legends; effectively you get a 3rd weapon to play with. I can imagine TONS of things that weapon could do for you ... it might even be linked to the lengned you have chosen ... whatever you want.

That's a crap idea maybe. That's not the point; the point is that there is no limitation to what a future elite spec could be based on the current concept of the class. The concerns of being 'locked into' a undesirable situation is unfounded, given the fact that Anet has already proven it could be done ... and DONE it with other classes.

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@Obtena.7952 said:

Daredevil is tacked on ... it's a thief with enhanced dodging mechanics. DH is tacked on ... it's simply a twist on Virtues. Reaper is tacked on ... it's a Chill-focused Necro. I could go on. I don't think i would be wrong in saying there are actually not that many especs that aren't simply a 'tacked' on (Scrapper is actually a different feel than Engi for instance, so is Scourge), but I can't say definitely because I haven't unlocked all the PoF especs yet.

It's not really fair to say that those are tacked on though... A Guardian's entire class mechanic is using it's virtues. Dragon Hunter transforms those virtues into abilities for a more active playstyle, and Firebrand takes it a step further by letting you equip your virtues as situational weapon kits. Both take that core-mechanic and alter it in a major way that changes the play style of the class without changing the feel or purpose of the class.

A core thief is very thiefy, but Daredevil takes their ability to evade, expands it, and then weaponizes it allowing them to have more moves to do damage through i-frames enhancing their ability to 1v1 and stay in fights all without taking anything away from core thief. On the other hand, Deadeye takes the heart of a thief (damage and mobility) and allows you to trade one for the other while still retaining a core thief's ability to disengage. I.e, your steal is no longer a teleport, but causes the target to take more damage, you can kneel--forfeiting 99% of your mobility--to do insane damage.

As for Reaper and Scourge they literally change everything about the core necromancer's class mechanic of death shroud. One is (supposed to be at least) a more melee oriented, bruiser shroud, while the other is (once again supposed to be) an AoE offensive and defensive group support shroud. It would maybe be fair to call reaper "tacked on" if all it did was add chills to the existing shroud mechanics, or just a new elite transformation skill like a new Lichform or whatever, but it hardly feels tacked on.

I think people would have generally been happy if Renegade was just "a twist on" Revenant... Rather than just being, Revenant, but now with more damage!

It should also be said that (aside from Necromancer) none of the other Elite specs actually take anything away from your core spec like Revenant's do. What I mean by that is, in order to use one of our elite stances, we have to actually replace 1/2 our core abilities with it. It's not like if a Scrapper decides to use his gyros, he loses access to 1/2 his tool kits.

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