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Finally reached T4 fractals, but am confused about the people


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Bs should be making bit less/the same dmg as dps classes. Rene as well even on malyx and full diviner is Able to deal ~ 14k (at least 10k). Also actually Ele suffers more dps loss from no alacrity than other dps specs.SS is 5 % dps boost for Ele and bit less for bs. So i guess ferocity and alacrity should do a bit more than 10%.especially if phase are long

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And then No Pain No Gain comes along and your dps drops 33%!

Also Renegade provides protection and soulcleavers, making it much easier for other people to dps. If you didn't have a renegade, there's a good chance some of your pug friends will lose far more than 15% of their damage just by going down more. They also do a lot of breakbar damage, meaning the rest of the group can mostly ignore CC.

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After playing around with those numbers some more:Bringing an Alacrigade would have to increase the DPS of each party member by about ~24% to break even with just bringing another DPS instead.(Again, For a 5 man setting). Which imo just isnt realistic.

It can be if the renegade is the one doing most of the CC so you can actually get the 50% extra dps from breakbar without interrupting rotation or having to bundle non-stop, renegade could be around 12k for Ensolyss, good one around 15k, hard to compare when there's varying personal skill involved and without seeing the actual run/skill breakdown.

No class is mandatory at all, you can solo most if not all fractals, but for more casual groups HB/Ren + 3 dps or 2dps + 1bs is usually the safest bet regarding boons and actually clearing without struggling too much or wiping, it's not only alacrity but also might (which most HB's don't sustain properly), CC, protection, scholar uptime, vuln, personal dps, fury/swift if pack runes (yes i've seen HB's with 0% swiftness and 0% fury uptime), etc.

Also, decent/good is subjective to people and the expectations you have when you join X ess groups, i used to run only 200-250 ess groups but from my experience there's close to no difference in player skill to 50ess groups, and on those 200-250 ones, they're pretty easy to quick/flame others even though they're doing close to nothing and just hiding behind their ess and/or titles, if i join a 250ess group asking for specific classes etc i'll expect them to be at least half-decent and not have 50% boon uptime and DPS as hard as a diviner renegade, else i don't really know what's the point on the ess-gating.

That was a 200ess group, i'd say that's pretty bad considering i had to nonstop CC every boss with bundles and people were playing the blame-game instead of actually trying to work together and help each other as a group, people literally stand there auto-attacking waiting for others to do something for some reason, yet act all elitist and toxic if something doesn't go as they expect.

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@BRNBRITO.9624 said:

After playing around with those numbers some more:Bringing an Alacrigade would have to increase the DPS of each party member by about ~24% to break even with just bringing another DPS instead.(Again, For a 5 man setting). Which imo just isnt realistic.

It can be if the renegade is the one doing most of the CC so you can actually get the 50% extra dps from breakbar without interrupting rotation or having to bundle non-stop, renegade could be around 12k for Ensolyss, good one around 15k, hard to compare when there's varying personal skill involved and without seeing the actual run/skill breakdown.

No class is mandatory at all, you can solo most if not all fractals, but for more casual groups HB/Ren + 3 dps or 2dps + 1bs is usually the safest bet regarding boons and actually clearing without struggling too much or wiping, it's not only alacrity but also might (which most HB's don't sustain properly), CC, protection, scholar uptime, vuln, personal dps, fury/swift if pack runes (yes i've seen HB's with 0% swiftness and 0% fury uptime), etc.

No, you are certainly correct here.As said, I had to make a lot of assumptions for this little number-crunch and it's 1 sample with lots of variables, so it probably doesnt mean much.But: For this particular encounter with this particular group: Everything the rev had to bring to the table (might, vuln, scholar uptime and whatnot) would have had to increase grp dps by 24% in order to warrant the pick over a 3rd DPS. And 24% is a quite a lot....especially considering this is one of the better grps (par the ele maybe) I have pugged CMs with.

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@Zenix.6198 said:As for the whole renegade argument.I had a pretty decent grp today (pugging) for my CMs + T4s and took a screenshot after Ensyloss (99 Frac).

I stop you right there. Thats not a decent group. Thats a bad group. Decent would be dps player having 24k+ and berserker 22k+ while ren at 15k. 10-12k with npng.Alacrity is really hard to calculate. It is needed to get one wolf pack / lightning storm in each phase a lot of the times which is often needed to skip phases which will reduce kill times greatly.Burst suffers a lot without those skills into breakbar. Also this really isnt a good ren. dropping the ren today would've cost you way more than 15% since it was npng day.On ensyl the ren should really achieve 15k+ dps with normal instabs. Also fb needs higher boon duration without alacrity which could force some diviner pieces if he isn't playing leechbrand.

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@Nephalem.8921 said:

@"Zenix.6198" said:As for the whole renegade argument.I had a pretty decent grp today (pugging) for my CMs + T4s and took a screenshot after Ensyloss (99 Frac).

I stop you right there. Thats not a decent group. Thats a bad group. Decent would be dps player having 24k+ and berserker 22k+ while ren at 15k. 10-12k with npng.Alacrity is really hard to calculate. It is needed to get one wolf pack / lightning storm in each phase a lot of the times which is often needed to skip phases which will reduce kill times greatly.Burst suffers a lot without those skills into breakbar. Also this really isnt a good ren. dropping the ren today would've cost you way more than 15% since it was npng day.On ensyl the ren should really achieve 15k+ dps with normal instabs. Also fb needs higher boon duration without alacrity which could force some diviner pieces if he isn't playing leechbrand.

Ye, sure....Obviously the grp wasnt super hardcore. Npng definitely added more value to the rengade today.But saying 12k or 15k on ensyl is a number to be aimed for is absolutely ludicrous.9k renegades are the highest of highest end I have seen in frac pugs so far.

For some reference:

Sure, that video is a year old now.....but this is as optimized a comp as you can essentiall get even today.Fractal Gog on everyone, MUCH higher than needed AR (for extra stats), Class-specific boon stacking beyond the scope of any PuG grp ...etc.etc.

And that renegade had sub 15k on ensyl....and thats with all the mentioned things above. 189 AR, Fractal God, Frost Spirit, Bane Signet, Frostbow precast, even tactics banner.

Not a very realistic pug experience at all.

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@Zenix.6198 said:

After playing around with those numbers some more:Bringing an Alacrigade would have to increase the DPS of each party member by about ~24% to break even with just bringing another DPS instead.(Again, For a 5 man setting). Which imo just isnt realistic.

It can be if the renegade is the one doing most of the CC so you can actually get the 50% extra dps from breakbar without interrupting rotation or having to bundle non-stop, renegade could be around 12k for Ensolyss, good one around 15k, hard to compare when there's varying personal skill involved and without seeing the actual run/skill breakdown.

No class is mandatory at all, you can solo most if not all fractals, but for more casual groups HB/Ren + 3 dps or 2dps + 1bs is usually the safest bet regarding boons and actually clearing without struggling too much or wiping, it's not only alacrity but also might (which most HB's don't sustain properly), CC, protection, scholar uptime, vuln, personal dps, fury/swift if pack runes (yes i've seen HB's with 0% swiftness and 0% fury uptime), etc.

No, you are certainly correct here.As said, I had to make a lot of assumptions for this little number-crunch and it's 1 sample with lots of variables, so it probably doesnt mean much.But: For this particular encounter with this particular group: Everything the rev had to bring to the table (might, vuln, scholar uptime and whatnot) would have had to increase grp dps by 24% in order to warrant the pick over a 3rd DPS. And 24% is a quite a lot....especially considering this is one of the better grps (par the ele maybe) I have pugged CMs with.

The rev in your group made up just about 70%-80% of the entire groups defiance bar break. Honest question, how much cc did you contribute in that group today?

Renegade on staff 5 with sigil of paralyzation and Kalla Darkrazor's Daring is the backbone of any meta composition defiance break. Unless you want all damage dealers to use consumables multiple times, which literally causes dps loss. The renegade alone can put out the around 2k defiance bar break required, so the rest of the group does not have to, but usually just puts out the main part while dps players use 1 consumable.

That is without accounting for NPNG, alacrity or anything else the renegade is providing.

By the way, that arc log suggests everyone but you was doing cc, or they were terrible at their rotations.

EDIT:and just because everyone takes everything personal on the forums. No, this is not me berating you for potentially not doing cc. This is simply me asking, have you considered this aspect? It could have very well been the case that your team was weaker, especially the other weaver. It happens all the time that there is difference in skill. The overall performance was good enough to complete the CM and players adapted.

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I'm more confused about the behavior of players. It's unacceptable that some players just join to do fractals (T4/T3 dailies / or dailies + recs or recs) and then just leave for no reasons during the fractal or because a boss is failed 1 time. Or even more simply just trolling and doing nothing to progress the fractal. (Ex: staying at middle during swampland waiting for other to succeed it if not, they leave). A report option should be added with a system of dishonor.

@Anet A fractal takes what it takes, even with a good formed group of several roles, sometimes it's slow, sometimes fast it's the game. Peoples rage-quitting or just impatient and leaving before the end of fractal for infuriating should be punished with a buff preventing them to join fractals during 1-3 days. (I speak of those leaving without saying anything, not the ones kicked, and of course you can have an emergency, but then you explain and ask for a kick).If you join a group it's because you want to do the fractals, if not you should be punished. Staying with others and being comprehensible and patient it's called RESPECT. I really think tags should be added to group in LFG: [All accepted] [Rush] [Meta build] [Chilling] it's no fun for a group of players that just want to do their dailies/recs without pressure to have 3 nervous persons joining. They always have the same behavior, they don't say hi/hey/hello, never ty, never take singularities, leave if they are downed. Punishment will increase if repeated during the day: 1st time = No rewards buff for the next fractal, 2nd: No reward buff 24h, 3rd : 1 day fractal ban. After 4 time: fractal Ban for 3 day. It's a plague and can't continue like this. At least add tools to prevent different types of players from meeting each others.Of course I can agree with expecting certain roles from joiners or waiting certain builds, but you don't join a squad just saying "dailies" if you are a speedrunner...

This is an issue that can't be ignored anymore. The other day did T4 recs+ dailies with the nicest person of the earth, 3 joined after and rot the ambiance, not caring of fractals, all were staying next to a swampland orbs without taking them or not attacking bosses, left also in shattered obs because of one fail at last boss (btw some joined after, no issues). Really should have an option to automatically refuse our blocked players to join our group at least if nothing will be done. It's pure toxicity, and it's sad it's appearing everywhere, strikes, fractals, raids, what's next, pve squads?

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@"Zenix.6198"

It was released shortly after diviner got released. Lots of stuff you would do differently on a ren now also the current meta uses a dh instead of a fb and their slb wasnt running stance share because qT reasons.Here a more relevant one:

Ren has 18k because he didnt spend half the fight on staff like in your video.Or here 22k:

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@Zenix.6198 said:

@Zenix.6198 said:As for the whole renegade argument.I had a pretty decent grp today (pugging) for my CMs + T4s and took a screenshot after Ensyloss (99 Frac).

I stop you right there. Thats not a decent group. Thats a bad group. Decent would be dps player having 24k+ and berserker 22k+ while ren at 15k. 10-12k with npng.Alacrity is really hard to calculate. It is needed to get one wolf pack / lightning storm in each phase a lot of the times which is often needed to skip phases which will reduce kill times greatly.Burst suffers a lot without those skills into breakbar. Also this really isnt a good ren. dropping the ren today would've cost you way more than 15% since it was npng day.On ensyl the ren should really achieve 15k+ dps with normal instabs. Also fb needs higher boon duration without alacrity which could force some diviner pieces if he isn't playing leechbrand.

Ye, sure....Obviously the grp wasnt super hardcore. Npng definitely added more value to the rengade today.But saying 12k or 15k on ensyl is a number to be aimed for is absolutely ludicrous.9k renegades are the highest of highest end I have seen in frac pugs so far.

For some reference:

Sure, that video is a year old now.....but this is as optimized a comp as you can essentiall get even today.Fractal Gog on everyone, MUCH higher than needed AR (for extra stats), Class-specific boon stacking beyond the scope of any PuG grp ...etc.etc.

And that renegade had sub 15k on ensyl....and thats with all the mentioned things above. 189 AR, Fractal God, Frost Spirit, Bane Signet, Frostbow precast, even tactics banner.

Not a very realistic pug experience at all.

If you want to see a video of a relatively okayish group with npng where renegade scuffed most of his dps by canceling / other reasons, here you go:

Renegade is a necessary support for the group. You bring ferocity, might and alacrity to a group that would otherwise lack all of those. In addition, you make the kills easier and faster by healing and dealing with mechanics (healing gives scholar rune uptime → increased dps from dps players). On top of that, a good renegade can be a decent part of your damage and very important to your bursts (on non-npng days, you can burst Enso/MAMA for 50k DPS in first phase). AND IN ADDITION TO ALL PREVIOUSLY SAID THINGS: Renegade can solo breakbars and on CMs it does like half of the defiance bar damage.

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That's all the point : good renegades.We had the AFK warriors long ago before the berserker rework, no one really knew the expected DPS so they just spammed banners and waited. Now we know, they can't hide anymore. :#Renegade seems to be the new pilar but often somewhat expected the new burden too. Bad alacrity/might uptime ; no staff ; bad management of energy and CD, mallyx/jalis + soulcleave on burst phases ; etc. The border between Mandatory and Crippling is easy to cross.May be they don't all know what we expect from them, may be it's the lack of cooperation or knowledge(skill) of the group too. Example, blue bar is 90% broken and Ren is like "Guys ? We break it now or I wasted my energy/legend for nothing ? "

I think his point is, you better want a medium DPS than a medium renegade. That is a important question in PUG, where you can't have too much faith in other members.

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@Janitsu.6284 said:

@Zenix.6198 said:As for the whole renegade argument.I had a pretty decent grp today (pugging) for my CMs + T4s and took a screenshot after Ensyloss (99 Frac).

I stop you right there. Thats not a decent group. Thats a bad group. Decent would be dps player having 24k+ and berserker 22k+ while ren at 15k. 10-12k with npng.Alacrity is really hard to calculate. It is needed to get one wolf pack / lightning storm in each phase a lot of the times which is often needed to skip phases which will reduce kill times greatly.Burst suffers a lot without those skills into breakbar. Also this really isnt a good ren. dropping the ren today would've cost you way more than 15% since it was npng day.On ensyl the ren should really achieve 15k+ dps with normal instabs. Also fb needs higher boon duration without alacrity which could force some diviner pieces if he isn't playing leechbrand.

Ye, sure....Obviously the grp wasnt super hardcore. Npng definitely added more value to the rengade today.But saying 12k or 15k on ensyl is a number to be aimed for is absolutely ludicrous.9k renegades are the highest of highest end I have seen in frac pugs so far.

For some reference:

Sure, that video is a year old now.....but this is as optimized a comp as you can essentiall get even today.Fractal Gog on everyone, MUCH higher than needed AR (for extra stats), Class-specific boon stacking beyond the scope of any PuG grp ...etc.etc.

And that renegade had sub 15k on ensyl....and thats with all the mentioned things above. 189 AR, Fractal God, Frost Spirit, Bane Signet, Frostbow precast, even tactics banner.

Not a very realistic pug experience at all.

If you want to see a video of a relatively okayish group with npng where renegade scuffed most of his dps by canceling / other reasons, here you go:

Renegade is a necessary support for the group. You bring ferocity, might and alacrity to a group that would otherwise lack all of those. In addition, you make the kills easier and faster by healing and dealing with mechanics (healing gives scholar rune uptime → increased dps from dps players). On top of that, a good renegade can be a decent part of your damage and very important to your bursts (on non-npng days, you can burst Enso/MAMA for 50k DPS in first phase). AND IN ADDITION TO ALL PREVIOUSLY SAID THINGS:
Renegade can solo breakbars and on CMs it does like half of the defiance bar damage
.

Can you tell me, if the renegade in that video is running full diviner or full zerker?Cause the quantify video I posted earlier, states that it actually is full zerker.

This and @Nephalem.8921 s comment from earlier actually make me second guessing my experiences so far.Like whenever I have a renegade in my grps, they usually end up doing between ~25% and ~33% of my dps.If Diviner (!) Renegade actually can reach about ~60% the DPS of a full DPS class.....I have developed an actual biased towards the class, since I cant remember to have EVER seen that before.

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@Zenix.6198 said:

@Zenix.6198 said:As for the whole renegade argument.I had a pretty decent grp today (pugging) for my CMs + T4s and took a screenshot after Ensyloss (99 Frac).

I stop you right there. Thats not a decent group. Thats a bad group. Decent would be dps player having 24k+ and berserker 22k+ while ren at 15k. 10-12k with npng.Alacrity is really hard to calculate. It is needed to get one wolf pack / lightning storm in each phase a lot of the times which is often needed to skip phases which will reduce kill times greatly.Burst suffers a lot without those skills into breakbar. Also this really isnt a good ren. dropping the ren today would've cost you way more than 15% since it was npng day.On ensyl the ren should really achieve 15k+ dps with normal instabs. Also fb needs higher boon duration without alacrity which could force some diviner pieces if he isn't playing leechbrand.

Ye, sure....Obviously the grp wasnt super hardcore. Npng definitely added more value to the rengade today.But saying 12k or 15k on ensyl is a number to be aimed for is absolutely ludicrous.9k renegades are the highest of highest end I have seen in frac pugs so far.

For some reference:

Sure, that video is a year old now.....but this is as optimized a comp as you can essentiall get even today.Fractal Gog on everyone, MUCH higher than needed AR (for extra stats), Class-specific boon stacking beyond the scope of any PuG grp ...etc.etc.

And that renegade had sub 15k on ensyl....and thats with all the mentioned things above. 189 AR, Fractal God, Frost Spirit, Bane Signet, Frostbow precast, even tactics banner.

Not a very realistic pug experience at all.

If you want to see a video of a relatively okayish group with npng where renegade scuffed most of his dps by canceling / other reasons, here you go:

Renegade is a necessary support for the group. You bring ferocity, might and alacrity to a group that would otherwise lack all of those. In addition, you make the kills easier and faster by healing and dealing with mechanics (healing gives scholar rune uptime → increased dps from dps players). On top of that, a good renegade can be a decent part of your damage and very important to your bursts (on non-npng days, you can burst Enso/MAMA for 50k DPS in first phase). AND IN ADDITION TO ALL PREVIOUSLY SAID THINGS:
Renegade can solo breakbars and on CMs it does like half of the defiance bar damage
.

Can you tell me, if the renegade in that video is running full diviner or full zerker?Cause the quantify video I posted earlier, states that it actually is full zerker.

This and @Nephalem.8921 s comment from earlier actually make me second guessing my experiences so far.Like whenever I have a renegade in my grps, they usually end up doing between ~25% and ~33% of my dps.If Diviner (!) Renegade actually can reach about ~60% the DPS of a full DPS class.....I have developed an actual biased towards the class, since I cant remember to have EVER seen that before.

Edit: Okay. After rewatching the video. You can clearly see that his renegade is not running full Diviner. At 01:15 he presses his F3 (without Moa stance from the SlB) and alacrity drops before the skill is up again.

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Can you tell me, if the renegade in that video is running full diviner or full zerker?Cause the quantify video I posted earlier, states that it actually is full zerker.Didn't check all vids but IMO for pugs you're better off full diviner (at least 90% BD) + pack runes since you can never trust others to upkeep boons, those vids have proper groups and not the usual experience you'll have when pugging, but gives an idea of good gameplay and how big the difference can be.

I wouldn't say i'm a great player and barely play rev but here's an example of rev dps/skill breakdown for 99CM MAMA, Siax and Ensolyss, reminder that they're full pug runs on NA, not speedrun/static/resetting boss, running full diviner, force+impact and pack runes.

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@"BRNBRITO.9624" said:

Can you tell me, if the renegade in that video is running full diviner or full zerker?Cause the quantify video I posted earlier, states that it actually is full zerker.Didn't check all vids but IMO for pugs you're better off full diviner (at least 90% BD) + pack runes since you can never trust others to upkeep boons, those vids have proper groups and not the usual experience you'll have when pugging, but gives an idea of good gameplay and how big the difference can be.

I wouldn't say i'm a great player and barely play rev but here's an example of rev dps/skill breakdown for 99CM
,
and
, reminder that they're full pug runs on NA, not speedrun/static/resetting boss, running full diviner, force+impact and pack runes.

Okay, thanks alot for sharing that.If that is the dps potential of a full diviner renegade, I stand corrected after all.This is so odd tho. As said before, whenever I have a renegade in my grps, they are barely above the healer in the meter.Guess I had a totally wrong impression then.Cause a 7k renegade is really not worth having then.

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@"Zenix.6198" said:Okay, thanks alot for sharing that.If that is the dps potential of a full diviner renegade, I stand corrected after all.This is so odd tho. As said before, whenever I have a renegade in my grps, they are barely above the healer in the meter.Guess I had a totally wrong impression then.Cause a 7k renegade is really not worth having then.That's about the average i get on most pugs, MAMA was pretty good, Ensolyss not so much, probably the hardest part of fractals is that you need to adapt on the fly with breakbars/mechanics and react according to your group damage/CC, probably the reason a lot of people underperform sometimes, you can fully memorize a rotation video but if your party instabreaks the bar you can't/shouldn't do a full opener, gotta capitalize as much as possible on the exposed debuff while it lasts.

I tweaked my heal build a bit as well since Healbrand already overheals so so much, just swapped trinkets from Harrier to Seraph and Honorable Staff to Empowering Might and spend more time on Axe since rarely there's a might problem (swap and start stacking with Staff during splits etc), with mistlock (F1#5 precast) can get around 15-20k "burst" and sustain around 6-7k dps on Healbrand (bit less on Arkk/Skorrvald), might not be much but i feel it's more useful having some DPS than unnecessary extra healing.

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@Zenix.6198 said:

@Zenix.6198 said:As for the whole renegade argument.I had a pretty decent grp today (pugging) for my CMs + T4s and took a screenshot after Ensyloss (99 Frac).

I stop you right there. Thats not a decent group. Thats a bad group. Decent would be dps player having 24k+ and berserker 22k+ while ren at 15k. 10-12k with npng.Alacrity is really hard to calculate. It is needed to get one wolf pack / lightning storm in each phase a lot of the times which is often needed to skip phases which will reduce kill times greatly.Burst suffers a lot without those skills into breakbar. Also this really isnt a good ren. dropping the ren today would've cost you way more than 15% since it was npng day.On ensyl the ren should really achieve 15k+ dps with normal instabs. Also fb needs higher boon duration without alacrity which could force some diviner pieces if he isn't playing leechbrand.

Ye, sure....Obviously the grp wasnt super hardcore. Npng definitely added more value to the rengade today.But saying 12k or 15k on ensyl is a number to be aimed for is absolutely ludicrous.9k renegades are the highest of highest end I have seen in frac pugs so far.

For some reference:

Sure, that video is a year old now.....but this is as optimized a comp as you can essentiall get even today.Fractal Gog on everyone, MUCH higher than needed AR (for extra stats), Class-specific boon stacking beyond the scope of any PuG grp ...etc.etc.

And that renegade had sub 15k on ensyl....and thats with all the mentioned things above. 189 AR, Fractal God, Frost Spirit, Bane Signet, Frostbow precast, even tactics banner.

Not a very realistic pug experience at all.

If you want to see a video of a relatively okayish group with npng where renegade scuffed most of his dps by canceling / other reasons, here you go:

Renegade is a necessary support for the group. You bring ferocity, might and alacrity to a group that would otherwise lack all of those. In addition, you make the kills easier and faster by healing and dealing with mechanics (healing gives scholar rune uptime → increased dps from dps players). On top of that, a good renegade can be a decent part of your damage and very important to your bursts (on non-npng days, you can burst Enso/MAMA for 50k DPS in first phase). AND IN ADDITION TO ALL PREVIOUSLY SAID THINGS:
Renegade can solo breakbars and on CMs it does like half of the defiance bar damage
.

Can you tell me, if the renegade in that video is running full diviner or full zerker?Cause the quantify video I posted earlier, states that it actually is full zerker.

This and @Nephalem.8921 s comment from earlier actually make me second guessing my experiences so far.Like whenever I have a renegade in my grps, they usually end up doing between ~25% and ~33% of my dps.If Diviner (!) Renegade actually can reach about ~60% the DPS of a full DPS class.....I have developed an actual biased towards the class, since I cant remember to have EVER seen that before.

Renegade in said video (me) is running 40 % BD in it, which is a bit safer than none. The DPS is quite lowish due to obvious mistakes and NPNG however. In pugs I run 80 % BD and still deal 14k-15k on non-NPNG days due to knowing when to burst and how to burst.

@Zenix.6198 said:

@"BRNBRITO.9624" said:

Can you tell me, if the renegade in that video is running full diviner or full zerker?Cause the quantify video I posted earlier, states that it actually is full zerker.Didn't check all vids but IMO for pugs you're better off full diviner (at least 90% BD) + pack runes since you can never trust others to upkeep boons, those vids have proper groups and not the usual experience you'll have when pugging, but gives an idea of good gameplay and how big the difference can be.

I wouldn't say i'm a great player and barely play rev but here's an example of rev dps/skill breakdown for 99CM
,
and
, reminder that they're full pug runs on NA, not speedrun/static/resetting boss, running full diviner, force+impact and pack runes.

Okay, thanks alot for sharing that.If that is the dps potential of a full diviner renegade, I stand corrected after all.This is so odd tho. As said before, whenever I have a renegade in my grps, they are barely above the healer in the meter.Guess I had a totally wrong impression then.Cause a 7k renegade is really not worth having then.

This is mostly caused by the fact that people don't know how to properly utilise renegade and don't know what do on the class. The other reason for low DPS renegades is simply the fact that they are hold to no standards at all due to pugs not knowing capabilities of the three support classes (BS, rene, qFB/hFB) and therefore not expecting more, so they can just basically AFK through an encounter.

Most of the people doing solely CMs and T4s for the farming rather than improving will always have worse numbers than people who post videos on YouTube. It's up to the rest of the group to actually hold them to a certain standard.

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@BRNBRITO.9624 said:

@"Zenix.6198" said:Okay, thanks alot for sharing that.If that is the dps potential of a full diviner renegade, I stand corrected after all.This is so odd tho. As said before, whenever I have a renegade in my grps, they are barely above the healer in the meter.Guess I had a totally wrong impression then.Cause a 7k renegade is really not worth having then.

I tweaked my heal build a bit as well since Healbrand already overheals so so much, just swapped trinkets from Harrier to Seraph and Honorable Staff to Empowering Might and spend more time on Axe since rarely there's a might problem (swap and start stacking with Staff during splits etc), with mistlock (F1#5 precast) can get around 15-20k "burst" and sustain around 6-7k dps on Healbrand (bit less on Arkk/Skorrvald), might not be much but i feel it's more useful having some DPS than unnecessary extra healing.

Ye, I started running Empowering might on my healbrand ages ago as well.With the bonus critchance in fractals (~10.5 % from pots at 150AR, and Fury and maybe 4.5% from banner) you essential proc this trait off ICD.Its AT least 10 extra might, and you an reach 100 Boonduration in fractals without Honorable staff as well.Im always surprised when I see HFBs struggling with might uptime, since this makes it really, really easy.

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You are wrong in many levels and i know why, because i was once just like you.After mastering T3 i felt i was good enough for T4.So i started 75+ back in the day with a condi zerker and was destroying everything. I thought myself: "baah, thats so easy, i wont bother".

Then on a nice shinny day, the daily was 100.Man i got DESTROYED. After 30 minutes attempting to kill the first boss i left, tried another group, same thing.

After that i stopped underestimating T4.And then months later i had limited time and just wanted to be done with all of them asap and that requires a structured team. Not the point of playing X or Y class, but ROLE. Like, we need 1 heal, 1 support and 3 DPS. It doesnt matter if you are a Soulbeat condi, or a Power DH, or a power REV, as long as you can DPS we're fine. It doesnt matter if youre Rev, Druid, FB or Ele, as long as you can heal we are good.

There are some easy fractals:Chaos, Cliffside, Molten Boss, Underground facility, Molten furnace, Uncategorized

There are some mid-onesSwampland, Volcanic, Lab, Urban Battleground and Amala

And some HARD ones that NEEDS a structured team to beatNightmare, Siren's Reef, Shattered Obs, Snowblind (last boss), etc.

Just an example. So keep cool and join in, you'll be just like the rest in a few months. I never had issue with ppl making playing X or Y class, only be good with the role i choose

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The very reason why people have to state their roles in T4s is for group performance, 4 people run full dps and 1 support to pulse out heal and quickness would be super decent, second is for time efficiency, nobody wants to have a 3 hour run with people dont know what they are doing, would be a horrible horrible nightmare, most just want to swing by and complete the Dailies-Recs in like 30mins. The fact that you didnt die in the boss encouter didnt mean you are a good player, it just that you are running a heavy condi tanking build with high health and sustain for yourself while doing next to no damage to the boss, other people if they run full dps to clear the boss as fast as possible, to save their time and do something else and dont have a proper support for survivability they gonna die.

Its just simple as that, you are running a build that is self sufficient, high survivabily, others running to maximize the damage, they are squishy and easy to die, if you expect everyone to be like you, noone wants to have a specific role in the group, its gonna be a clown fiesta, you could clear T4s like one time now maybe because it was a good day with instabilities not so obnoxious to deal with and very likely you was dps-carried by the people that died and you just wiping up the rest, wait until you do Siren's Reef and get in party with people with same mindset like you, you gonna wipe dozen times over.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

After playing around with those numbers some more:Bringing an Alacrigade would have to increase the DPS of each party member by about ~24% to break even with just bringing another DPS instead.(Again, For a 5 man setting). Which imo just isnt realistic.

It can be if the renegade is the one doing most of the CC so you can actually get the 50% extra dps from breakbar without interrupting rotation or having to bundle non-stop, renegade could be around 12k for Ensolyss, good one around 15k, hard to compare when there's varying personal skill involved and without seeing the actual run/skill breakdown.

No class is mandatory at all, you can solo most if not all fractals, but for more casual groups HB/Ren + 3 dps or 2dps + 1bs is usually the safest bet regarding boons and actually clearing without struggling too much or wiping, it's not only alacrity but also might (which most HB's don't sustain properly), CC, protection, scholar uptime, vuln, personal dps, fury/swift if pack runes (yes i've seen HB's with 0% swiftness and 0% fury uptime), etc.

No, you are certainly correct here.As said, I had to make a lot of assumptions for this little number-crunch and it's 1 sample with lots of variables, so it probably doesnt mean much.But: For this particular encounter with this particular group: Everything the rev had to bring to the table (might, vuln, scholar uptime and whatnot) would have had to increase grp dps by 24% in order to warrant the pick over a 3rd DPS. And 24% is a quite a lot....especially considering this is one of the better grps (par the ele maybe) I have pugged CMs with.

The rev in your group made up just about 70%-80% of the entire groups defiance bar break. Honest question, how much cc did you contribute in that group today?

Renegade on staff 5 with sigil of paralyzation and Kalla Darkrazor's Daring is the backbone of any meta composition defiance break. Unless you want all damage dealers to use consumables multiple times, which literally causes dps loss. The renegade alone can put out the around 2k defiance bar break required, so the rest of the group does not have to, but usually just puts out the main part while dps players use 1 consumable.

That is without accounting for NPNG, alacrity or anything else the renegade is providing.

By the way, that arc log suggests everyone but you was doing cc, or they were terrible at their rotations.

EDIT:and just because everyone takes everything personal on the forums. No, this is not me berating you for potentially not doing cc. This is simply me asking, have you considered this aspect? It could have very well been the case that your team was weaker, especially the other weaver. It happens all the time that there is difference in skill. The overall performance was good enough to complete the CM and players adapted.

Does Sigil of paralyzation boost staff 5 as staff 5 is not a stun?

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@sokeenoppa.5384 said:

After playing around with those numbers some more:Bringing an Alacrigade would have to increase the DPS of each party member by about ~24% to break even with just bringing another DPS instead.(Again, For a 5 man setting). Which imo just isnt realistic.

It can be if the renegade is the one doing most of the CC so you can actually get the 50% extra dps from breakbar without interrupting rotation or having to bundle non-stop, renegade could be around 12k for Ensolyss, good one around 15k, hard to compare when there's varying personal skill involved and without seeing the actual run/skill breakdown.

No class is mandatory at all, you can solo most if not all fractals, but for more casual groups HB/Ren + 3 dps or 2dps + 1bs is usually the safest bet regarding boons and actually clearing without struggling too much or wiping, it's not only alacrity but also might (which most HB's don't sustain properly), CC, protection, scholar uptime, vuln, personal dps, fury/swift if pack runes (yes i've seen HB's with 0% swiftness and 0% fury uptime), etc.

No, you are certainly correct here.As said, I had to make a lot of assumptions for this little number-crunch and it's 1 sample with lots of variables, so it probably doesnt mean much.But: For this particular encounter with this particular group: Everything the rev had to bring to the table (might, vuln, scholar uptime and whatnot) would have had to increase grp dps by 24% in order to warrant the pick over a 3rd DPS. And 24% is a quite a lot....especially considering this is one of the better grps (par the ele maybe) I have pugged CMs with.

The rev in your group made up just about 70%-80% of the entire groups defiance bar break. Honest question, how much cc did you contribute in that group today?

Renegade on staff 5 with sigil of paralyzation and Kalla Darkrazor's Daring is the backbone of any meta composition defiance break. Unless you want all damage dealers to use consumables multiple times, which literally causes dps loss. The renegade alone can put out the around 2k defiance bar break required, so the rest of the group does not have to, but usually just puts out the main part while dps players use 1 consumable.

That is without accounting for NPNG, alacrity or anything else the renegade is providing.

By the way, that arc log suggests everyone but you was doing cc, or they were terrible at their rotations.

EDIT:and just because everyone takes everything personal on the forums. No, this is not me berating you for potentially not doing cc. This is simply me asking, have you considered this aspect? It could have very well been the case that your team was weaker, especially the other weaver. It happens all the time that there is difference in skill. The overall performance was good enough to complete the CM and players adapted.

Does Sigil of paralyzation boost staff 5 as staff 5 is not a stun?

If I remember it works with Daze too, so may be with Darkrazor's Thing (1/4sec *6 daze) (I don't know how the game will calculate it, it doesn't round for stun, but hey), but not with pull, knockback, float etc.

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@sokeenoppa.5384 said:

After playing around with those numbers some more:Bringing an Alacrigade would have to increase the DPS of each party member by about ~24% to break even with just bringing another DPS instead.(Again, For a 5 man setting). Which imo just isnt realistic.

It can be if the renegade is the one doing most of the CC so you can actually get the 50% extra dps from breakbar without interrupting rotation or having to bundle non-stop, renegade could be around 12k for Ensolyss, good one around 15k, hard to compare when there's varying personal skill involved and without seeing the actual run/skill breakdown.

No class is mandatory at all, you can solo most if not all fractals, but for more casual groups HB/Ren + 3 dps or 2dps + 1bs is usually the safest bet regarding boons and actually clearing without struggling too much or wiping, it's not only alacrity but also might (which most HB's don't sustain properly), CC, protection, scholar uptime, vuln, personal dps, fury/swift if pack runes (yes i've seen HB's with 0% swiftness and 0% fury uptime), etc.

No, you are certainly correct here.As said, I had to make a lot of assumptions for this little number-crunch and it's 1 sample with lots of variables, so it probably doesnt mean much.But: For this particular encounter with this particular group: Everything the rev had to bring to the table (might, vuln, scholar uptime and whatnot) would have had to increase grp dps by 24% in order to warrant the pick over a 3rd DPS. And 24% is a quite a lot....especially considering this is one of the better grps (par the ele maybe) I have pugged CMs with.

The rev in your group made up just about 70%-80% of the entire groups defiance bar break. Honest question, how much cc did you contribute in that group today?

Renegade on staff 5 with sigil of paralyzation and Kalla Darkrazor's Daring is the backbone of any meta composition defiance break. Unless you want all damage dealers to use consumables multiple times, which literally causes dps loss. The renegade alone can put out the around 2k defiance bar break required, so the rest of the group does not have to, but usually just puts out the main part while dps players use 1 consumable.

That is without accounting for NPNG, alacrity or anything else the renegade is providing.

By the way, that arc log suggests everyone but you was doing cc, or they were terrible at their rotations.

EDIT:and just because everyone takes everything personal on the forums. No, this is not me berating you for potentially not doing cc. This is simply me asking, have you considered this aspect? It could have very well been the case that your team was weaker, especially the other weaver. It happens all the time that there is difference in skill. The overall performance was good enough to complete the CM and players adapted.

Does Sigil of paralyzation boost staff 5 as staff 5 is not a stun?

Yes it does.

EDIT:I was incorrect. Correctly pointed out by Safandula.8723 and RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 furhter down.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

After playing around with those numbers some more:Bringing an Alacrigade would have to increase the DPS of each party member by about ~24% to break even with just bringing another DPS instead.(Again, For a 5 man setting). Which imo just isnt realistic.

It can be if the renegade is the one doing most of the CC so you can actually get the 50% extra dps from breakbar without interrupting rotation or having to bundle non-stop, renegade could be around 12k for Ensolyss, good one around 15k, hard to compare when there's varying personal skill involved and without seeing the actual run/skill breakdown.

No class is mandatory at all, you can solo most if not all fractals, but for more casual groups HB/Ren + 3 dps or 2dps + 1bs is usually the safest bet regarding boons and actually clearing without struggling too much or wiping, it's not only alacrity but also might (which most HB's don't sustain properly), CC, protection, scholar uptime, vuln, personal dps, fury/swift if pack runes (yes i've seen HB's with 0% swiftness and 0% fury uptime), etc.

No, you are certainly correct here.As said, I had to make a lot of assumptions for this little number-crunch and it's 1 sample with lots of variables, so it probably doesnt mean much.But: For this particular encounter with this particular group: Everything the rev had to bring to the table (might, vuln, scholar uptime and whatnot) would have had to increase grp dps by 24% in order to warrant the pick over a 3rd DPS. And 24% is a quite a lot....especially considering this is one of the better grps (par the ele maybe) I have pugged CMs with.

The rev in your group made up just about 70%-80% of the entire groups defiance bar break. Honest question, how much cc did you contribute in that group today?

Renegade on staff 5 with sigil of paralyzation and Kalla Darkrazor's Daring is the backbone of any meta composition defiance break. Unless you want all damage dealers to use consumables multiple times, which literally causes dps loss. The renegade alone can put out the around 2k defiance bar break required, so the rest of the group does not have to, but usually just puts out the main part while dps players use 1 consumable.

That is without accounting for NPNG, alacrity or anything else the renegade is providing.

By the way, that arc log suggests everyone but you was doing cc, or they were terrible at their rotations.

EDIT:and just because everyone takes everything personal on the forums. No, this is not me berating you for potentially not doing cc. This is simply me asking, have you considered this aspect? It could have very well been the case that your team was weaker, especially the other weaver. It happens all the time that there is difference in skill. The overall performance was good enough to complete the CM and players adapted.

Does Sigil of paralyzation boost staff 5 as staff 5 is not a stun?

Yes it does.

no it doesnt. only works on darkrazor and consumables

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