Condition Rework 3.0

[Swagger.1459]

1- A stat, that players can build for with gear, that mitigates (not removes) condi damage... Toughness would be my personal preference.

2- Remove condition damage from auto-attacks.

3- Weapon and slot skill attacks designed to do condition damage are changed to DoT (damage over time) skills (like every other game uses successfully) using 1 particular condition damage per tick.

Ranger Shortbow damage type examples using the above suggestion...~Crossfire- X power damage. No bleeds.~Poison Volley- X poison DoT over X seconds.~Quick Shot- X bleed DoT over X seconds.~Crippling Shot- X bleed DoT over X seconds.~Concussion Shot- X power damage.

*You keep in place all the other secondary effects going on with the skills. So Quick Shot still provides evade and swiftness... Crippling Shot still provides cripple and immobilize...

4- Assign each individual condi weapon skill and slot skill to use only 1 type of DoT damaging condition. You still keep secondary movement impairing and hard conditions on skills...

Look at the difference between these skills and you’ll see what I mean.• Way crazy and over-the-top condi skill, and highlights the overarching condi issues this game faces... https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_Spite• Well designed condi skill, and what I’m talking about with the above with assigning 1 DoT condi to all skills. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blood_Is_Power

5- Cleansing skills become condi DoT damage mitigation (x % damage reduction) skills, but they still remove secondary soft (cripple, chill, ...) and hard (daze, knock down... ) condition effects. These redesigned cleanses do NOT remove condi DoT damage...

6- Skills that produce hard condition effects remain the same.

7- Moa transformation should be classified as a Hard Condition and countered by Stun Break.

8- Add in an “immunity timer” to prevent the chaining of soft and hard CC effects from occurring. Timer starts after being hit with either a soft or hard CC.

9- All stats and equipment remain and function the same way, except expertise...Either remove expertise so the team can have duration control on skills for balance, or expertise can function like precision does, but only for condi DoT damage.

TY!

[zealex.9410]

If i were to rework conditions i would honestly look at the gw1 sistem and play around that.

Have condie o back to not being smth you can stack and have only a few of them actually deal dmg, change condi dmg stat into dot dmg stat and intorduce dot values to a bunch of skills, give some kind of dot dmg mitigation.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Swagger.1459 said:1- A stat, that players can build for with gear, that mitigates (not removes) condi damage... Toughness would be my personal preference.

So conditions are now countered by cleanse and stats? Sure, why not. Toughness would be over-stacked in usefulness if it countered conditions and power damage making vitality near useless. Yeah, let's call that balance.

@Swagger.1459 said:2- Remove condition damage from auto-attacks.

Do power builds do auto attack damage which does not scale with their primary damage stat? Condition builds place conditions with their auto attacks because their power damage is near non existent, unlike power builds.

@Swagger.1459 said:3- Weapon and slot skill attacks designed to do condition damage are changed to DoT (damage over time) skills (like every other game uses successfully) using 1 particular condition damage per tick.

Ranger Shortbow damage type examples using the above suggestion...~Crossfire- X power damage. No bleeds.~Poison Volley- X poison DoT over X seconds.~Quick Shot- X bleed DoT over X seconds.~Crippling Shot- X bleed DoT over X seconds.~Concussion Shot- X power damage.

*You keep in place all the other secondary effects going on with the skills. So Quick Shot still provides evade and swiftness... Crippling Shot still provides cripple and immobilize...

That's literally how conditions work now. Every single damage condition is a damage over time condition, some with specific percs like confusion or torment.

What you are actually referring to is that many other games do not allow stacking of the damage over time effect from the same player. You seem not clear on what damage over time means or what you are actually trying to address.

@Swagger.1459 said:5- Cleansing skills become condi DoT damage mitigation (x % damage reduction) skills, but they still remove secondary soft (cripple, chill, ...) and hard (daze, knock down... ) condition effects. These redesigned cleanses do NOT remove condi DoT damage...

Sure, when exactly are you going to address all the skills and traits which work off of having a specific condition on a target? Oh, some time later I guess.

@Swagger.1459 said:7- Moa transformation should be classified as a Hard Condition and countered by Stun Break.

Ah yes, can't have any suggestions without the mandatory mesmer nerf in there. Moa is not even in the last 2 years of meta but yeah, why not nerf it.

@Swagger.1459 said:8- Add in an “immunity timer” to prevent the chaining of soft and hard CC effects from occurring. Timer starts after being hit with either a soft or hard CC.

and we remove stability from the game while at it right? Got ya.

@Swagger.1459 said:9- All stats and equipment remain and function the same way, except expertise...Either remove expertise so the team can have duration control on skills for balance, or expertise can function like precision does, but only for condi DoT damage.

So now either condition damage skills are useless in PvE OR they get buffed so far that expertise is not even needed in competitive modes. Brilliant.

Expertise is primarily used in PvE to make condition builds perform on par with power builds. It sees far less use in competitive modes (primarily due to cleanse from supports). You're addressing an issue which is none in competitive modes and while doing so actually making things worse.

[Swagger.1459]

@Cyninja.2954 In many ways I tried to replicate what was good about the CC system we had in a game called City of Heroes, which had superior class designs, roles, skills and combat system mechanics. And you may like the pve designed CC system we have for wvw and spvp, but many of us don’t. And, last time I checked e-sports failed and wvw continues to bleed out year after year, so much so that the devs are reworking professions 8 years later. Or is this new “paradigm” shift patch, that has way more changes coming, a figment of my imagination?

[zealex.9410]

@Swagger.1459 said:@Cyninja.2954 In many ways I tried to replicate what was good about the CC system we had in a game called City of Heroes, which had superior class designs, roles, skills and combat system mechanics. And you may like the pve designed CC system we have for wvw and spvp, but many of us don’t. And, last time I checked e-sports failed and wvw continues to bleed out year after year, so much so that the devs are reworking professions 8 years later. Or is this new “paradigm” shift patch, that has way more changes coming, a figment of my imagination?

Yeah but city of heroes got axed.

[Swagger.1459]

@zealex.9410 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:@Cyninja.2954 In many ways I tried to replicate what was good about the CC system we had in a game called City of Heroes, which had superior class designs, roles, skills and combat system mechanics. And you may like the pve designed CC system we have for wvw and spvp, but many of us don’t. And, last time I checked e-sports failed and wvw continues to bleed out year after year, so much so that the devs are reworking professions 8 years later. Or is this new “paradigm” shift patch, that has way more changes coming, a figment of my imagination?

Yeah but city of heroes got axed.

That means nothing when it comes to better combat mechanic ideas.

[zealex.9410]

@Swagger.1459 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:@Cyninja.2954 In many ways I tried to replicate what was good about the CC system we had in a game called City of Heroes, which had superior class designs, roles, skills and combat system mechanics. And you may like the pve designed CC system we have for wvw and spvp, but many of us don’t. And, last time I checked e-sports failed and wvw continues to bleed out year after year, so much so that the devs are reworking professions 8 years later. Or is this new “paradigm” shift patch, that has way more changes coming, a figment of my imagination?

Yeah but city of heroes got axed.

That means nothing when it comes to better combat mechanic ideas.

It means that the combat wasnt good enough to keep the ppl engaged over the game's negatives.

[Swagger.1459]

@zealex.9410 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:@"Cyninja.2954" In many ways I tried to replicate what was good about the CC system we had in a game called City of Heroes, which had superior class designs, roles, skills and combat system mechanics. And you may like the pve designed CC system we have for wvw and spvp, but many of us don’t. And, last time I checked e-sports failed and wvw continues to bleed out year after year, so much so that the devs are reworking professions 8 years later. Or is this new “paradigm” shift patch, that has way more changes coming, a figment of my imagination?

Yeah but city of heroes got axed.

That means nothing when it comes to better combat mechanic ideas.

It means that the combat wasnt good enough to keep the ppl engaged over the game's negatives.

You have zero idea why coh shut down, and drawing some parallel to its combat mechanics and a shut down are moot. And has nothing to do with this or any thread. There are, and were, plenty of games that aren't here, but that had good ideas when it came to mechanics and designs. Should we just copy everything WoW considering GW2 is no where near the success of that game and struggles to stay alive?

You think pvp wasn't failing back in 2014? And designs are so good?

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/archive/balance/PvX-Balance-Iteration-Wrongdoing“On the various forums one can find dozens of threads, often pertaining to – and addressing and re-addressing – the same issues, over and over. This is a problem, because it leads to a community perception of paralysis, which causes:

1. A perception of neglect
2. Accumulation of negative PR
3. A perception of broken promises”

4. “Balance and build diversity:Overall, build diversity in GW2 has been severely curtailed by the fact that entire lines of Utility skills and Traits have been underwhelming – yet balance has focused almost exclusively on the rare few “meta” builds and skills. This often comes to the detriment of multiple skills and Utilities. Arenanet’s insistence on “letting the meta settle” has resulted in patches coming every few months that iterate on balance – yet the changes within reflect an increasing disconnect of balance intention and balance result.”“Community Frustration and perception

The lack of iteration has bred community frustration and resentment towards Arenanet who feel that the pace of development is glacial.”“balance should be in such a way that more builds than those listed above can have a place in a team composition without those builds shutting out others to the point of exclusion.”

“For PVE, the so-called “Damage, Support, Control” alternative trinity so trumpeted as the innovation over the “Tank, Healer, DPS” trinity has dissipated in favour of “DPS, DPS, DPS”.”

“Slow, extremely hard hitting attacks have negated the need for Support – there is little need to support allies with healing if taking a hit means almost certain death. DPS with just enough Support through Boons has become the one true god and PvE encounters have devolved into a “stack mobs, cleave to death” DPS race over thoughtful, deliberate challenges that tax a group’s ability to co-ordinate and problem solve.”

“Finally, there also exists the issue of balancing errors, and bugs affecting balance being unaddressed for significant periods.”

You think people in the mmo realm are too dumb to recognize good designs of the past, when compared to now?

From Massively OP on March 2019

https://massivelyop.com/2019/03/28/massively-overthinking-thoughts-on-the-holy-trinity-in-mmos/

“Brianna Royce (@nbrianna, blog): Fun fact: I still remember when “holy trinity” meant tank, healer, and mezzer – the DPS players were a given, the warm bodies that filled out the rest of the group, and not part of the trinity back in the early pre-WoW days of MMO group content. The fact that this shifted over time really says all you need to know about how MMO class and combat design have changed, and not necessarily for the better.

Don’t mistake me; I no longer believe we need or must respect a trinity of either type. But what I truly resent is the loss of class variation and combat flow that naturally accompanied the demise of the classic trinity, specifically the fact that crowd control, buffing, and debuffing classes have all but disappeared in the modern rush to make nearly everyone a damage-dealer, even the healers and tanks.

As an example, I can still think of none better than City of Heroes, which offered all of the old trinity and new trinity class types (and then some) but made none of them actually mandatory to clear content. Yes, tanks and healers and CCers and buffers and debuffers and damage dealers all existed, but it was completely possible to get through the game with no healers, or all healers. With a scrapper tanking ahead of a fleet of corruptors. With a stalker and four controllers. With three bubblers and three tankers. Whatever. I don’t want to see strict trinity MMOs, but I’m even grumpier about the “everyone deeps” MMOs even more, especially when the end result is cluster**** combat where nobody ever has control over the fight. It didn’t have to be that way, but modernish devs keep reinventing the wheel, convinced they can do better. Maybe someday, they will, but so far, nah.”

Note- Looking at the original post that "cluster****" comment will be a link to gw2 on MOP.

SO you keep telling yourself just because a game no longer is around, that it's not worth exploring how things worked.

[Swagger.1459]

@"zealex.9410"

And where is GW2 on the list? https://massivelyop.com/2020/02/21/superdata-visions-of-nzoth-boosted-world-of-warcraft-subs-but-its-lost-tons-since-wow-classics-2019-peak/

[Cyninja.2954]

@"Swagger.1459" said:SO you keep telling yourself just because a game no longer is around, that it's not worth exploring how things worked.

All I'm saying is:It took me 1 minute of simply reading through your "suggestions" to come up with serious flaws both of your own lack of understanding what you want to address, lack of understanding of this games stats, making a single stat overpowered and making a boon useless, etc.

The current balance patch and new direction attempted by the developers shows how complex and difficult a process it is to revamp the combat system (and how long it can take). Yet you come along with a few lines of text, no depth, massive shortcomings in the idea which would go far beyond what is currently being done/attempted.

Armchair expertise is not needed on such complex an issue. You'd be far better off making a well thought-out post about what your goal and idea is, then let players discuss changes. This games pvp will not get "fixed" by a 50 words post or idea.

[Swagger.1459]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@"Swagger.1459" said:SO you keep telling yourself just because a game no longer is around, that it's not worth exploring how things worked.

All I'm saying is:It took me 1 minute of simply reading through your "suggestions" to come up with serious flaws both of your own lack of understanding what you want to address, lack of understanding of this games stats, making a single stat overpowered and making a boon useless, etc.

The current balance patch and new direction attempted by the developers shows how complex and difficult a process it is to revamp the combat system (and how long it can take). Yet you come along with a few lines of text, no depth, massive shortcomings in the idea which would go far beyond what is currently being done/attempted.

Armchair expertise is not needed on such complex an issue. You'd be far better off making a well thought-out post about what your goal and idea is, then let players discuss changes. This games pvp will not get "fixed" by a 50 words post or idea.

I know it’s sometimes hard to envision a better system, especially with such few words to describe them. However, there are people with more mmo experiences that understand and appreciate a more succinct post. Essays are hardly required to get the core ideas out of it.

Perhaps think about it a bit more than a minute, I mean unless you really love the pve cc system and constant chain cc.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Swagger.1459 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:SO you keep telling yourself just because a game no longer is around, that it's not worth exploring how things worked.

All I'm saying is:It took me 1 minute of simply reading through your "suggestions" to come up with serious flaws both of your own lack of understanding what you want to address, lack of understanding of this games stats, making a single stat overpowered and making a boon useless, etc.

The current balance patch and new direction attempted by the developers shows how complex and difficult a process it is to revamp the combat system (and how long it can take). Yet you come along with a few lines of text, no depth, massive shortcomings in the idea which would go far beyond what is currently being done/attempted.

Armchair expertise is not needed on such complex an issue. You'd be far better off making a well thought-out post about what your goal and idea is, then let players discuss changes. This games pvp will not get "fixed" by a 50 words post or idea.

I know it’s sometimes hard to envision a better system, especially with such few words to describe them. However, there are people with more mmo experiences that understand and appreciate a more succinct post. Essays are hardly required to get the core ideas out of it.

This has nothing to do with envision. Your ideas have serious obvious flaws (on multiple levels) which you do not address. Simply saying:"the idea is great because I think so" is hardly strong proof or a solid argument.

That's why I suggested you better create an open debate/discussion with an idea at its center, in case you yourself can't articulate or shape the idea you are trying to encourage.

@Swagger.1459 said:Perhaps think about it a bit more than a minute, I mean unless you really love the pve cc system and constant chain cc.

If you had spent more than a minute, you'd have at least suggested how to fix the issues your ideas create. Sometimes going into some detail and actually showing others that effort was put into an idea can go a long way.

The fact you are making things like stability useless is the smallest issue at hand. A boon can simply be removed, some of the serious unbalance the other parts of your suggestion would create are not so easily remedied.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

You do realise that you can completely counter conditions with cleanses, and that in groups they even get converted to boons? It seems obvious, but please don't try to roam if you don't know how to play effectively solo.

Bad complaints "because I died to xyz" have become the bulk of this forum and its exhausting to read.

[Swagger.1459]

@Cyninja.2954 Unfortunately, my post was clearly understandable. I’m not here to debate the community and get their consensus, I’m posting to share info with the devs about a more sensible cc system, that draws elements from a successful cc system I’ve experienced. But ty for your interest in posting here!

[Swagger.1459]

@"Hannelore.8153" said:You do realise that you can completely counter conditions with cleanses, and that in groups they even get converted to boons? It seems obvious, but please don't try to roam if you don't know how to play effectively solo.

Bad complaints "because I died to xyz" have become the bulk of this forum and its exhausting to read.

I’m fully aware of the current cc system, but I do thank you for highlighting one of the issues with the current designs!

[Cyninja.2954]

@Swagger.1459 said:@Cyninja.2954 Unfortunately, my post was clearly understandable. I’m not here to debate the community and get their consensus, I’m posting to share info with the devs about a more sensible cc system, that draws elements from a successful cc system I’ve experienced. But ty for your interest in posting here!

Sure any time. I'm sure the developers will give this idea a lot more thought than I and if they find it appealing, they will work on implementing it (and likely find ways to address the issues which you missed).

Personally I think it would have been more useful to get more players engaged and discussing an idea to flesh it out, but that's just me. I'm sure your idea and opinion will carry enough merit on its own.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

@Swagger.1459 said:

@"Hannelore.8153" said:You do realise that you can completely counter conditions with cleanses, and that in groups they even get converted to boons? It seems obvious, but please don't try to roam if you don't know how to play effectively solo.

Bad complaints "because I died to xyz" have become the bulk of this forum and its exhausting to read.

I’m fully aware of the current cc system, but I do thank you for highlighting one of the issues with the current designs!

This thread was about conditions (with a throwaway comment about CC), so why this reply, which isn't even related?

[Swagger.1459]

@Hannelore.8153 said:You do realise that you can completely counter conditions with cleanses, and that in groups they even get converted to boons? It seems obvious, but please don't try to roam if you don't know how to play effectively solo.

Bad complaints "because I died to xyz" have become the bulk of this forum and its exhausting to read.

@Hannelore.8153 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:

@Hannelore.8153 said:You do realise that you can completely counter conditions with cleanses, and that in groups they even get converted to boons? It seems obvious, but please don't try to roam if you don't know how to play effectively solo.

Bad complaints "because I died to xyz" have become the bulk of this forum and its exhausting to read.

I’m fully aware of the current cc system, but I do thank you for highlighting one of the issues with the current designs!

This thread was about conditions (with a throwaway comment about CC), so why this reply, which isn't even related?

I replied to this... or did you forget what you posted? “ You do realise that you can completely counter conditions with cleanses, and that in groups they even get converted to boons?”

You also highlighted one of the issues with cc in the game, so just pointing that out to you.

And if you have a concern with what’s “related”, you should ask yourself why you even bothered to post... “ It seems obvious, but please don't try to roam if you don't know how to play effectively solo.

Bad complaints "because I died to xyz" have become the bulk of this forum and its exhausting to read.“... none of which is “related” and is just a needless assumption on your part. And if you aren’t aware, your posts on the topic of conditions actually strengthens my suggestions.

[Jski.6180]

Easy fix make all condis to boons convert into a very set low end boon set and all boons convert into a very low end condi set. It would go a long way to making having perma powerful boons from condi spam and stop corruption from being too much stronger then boon strip.

[anduriell.6280]

From my point of view to make the condition easier to manage without much rework i'll take the Ranger's Shortbow as a good design for condition application:

• Reduce the condition durations of all Auto Attacks to max 2s, being the advised of 1s.
• When a condition is cleansed a Buff will appear for that specific condition which will make the player immune to new applications for X amount of time, being that time the amount of stacks in seconds (with a cap) or a fixed time.

And that's it, Let's try this out and check how it works. Better than a long list of changes. And this could be applied also to PvE as it will change nothing in that game mode.

[AlexndrTheGreat.8310]

This all just sounds like condis with extra steps

[AlexndrTheGreat.8310]

@Swagger.1459 said:@Cyninja.2954 Unfortunately, my post was clearly understandable. I’m not here to debate the community and get their consensus, I’m posting to share info with the devs about a more sensible cc system, that draws elements from a successful cc system I’ve experienced. But ty for your interest in posting here!

So are you trying to suggest changes to cc or to conditions?

[Swagger.1459]

@AlexndrTheGreat.8310 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:@Cyninja.2954 Unfortunately, my post was clearly understandable. I’m not here to debate the community and get their consensus, I’m posting to share info with the devs about a more sensible cc system, that draws elements from a successful cc system I’ve experienced. But ty for your interest in posting here!

So are you trying to suggest changes to cc or to conditions?

Did you read it?