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Surge of the mists


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I think we need to be very vocal about the SotM change. Specifically the wind up time. ANET, completely understand the skills power lvl needs balancing in regards to damage, but this change has just made the skill FEEL BAD TO PLAY. That can’t be your intent when you balance the game. Obviously no one is more invested in making the game fun than the developer, so please recognize that this attempt is not good enough. We want our staff five to feel like it did before the balance. Take the damage, please don’t take the feel of the skill.

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I don't even see the point to this skill anymore.It's not instant but has one second cast time, so it can be interrupted easily or just stepped out of line from - so it practically doesn't CC anyone who sees it coming.It's technically (but not practically) is a CC skill, so it does no damage.The range is only 600, so it can hardly be used as a gap closer.The half second of evade is pointless, if the enemy can just pummel you from afar, sides or behind during the one second of cast time.Revenant Staff practically only has four skills now.

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I think there are multiple ways to fix this :

Most popular suggestion is to simply give movement during windup.Alternatively speed up the charge itself, so after the windup, the SotM dash is actually faster and people will at least get hit by 2 or 3 ticks of the knockback.

What I really want them to do :

Surge of the Mist becomes Warding Rift's flip skillCast Warding Rift to block for 3 seconds, after which, Surge of the Mist becomes available for another 3 secondsNaturally, windup should be removed since Warding Rift becomes Surge of the Mist's "tell"After which, if Surge of the Mist is not used, refund a little bit of cooldown back to Warding Rift.Give Staff a new 5 skill.

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@"Yasai.3549" said:I think there are multiple ways to fix this :

Most popular suggestion is to simply give movement during windup.Alternatively speed up the charge itself, so after the windup, the SotM dash is actually faster and people will at least get hit by 2 or 3 ticks of the knockback.

What I really want them to do :

Surge of the Mist becomes Warding Rift's flip skillCast Warding Rift to block for 3 seconds, after which, Surge of the Mist becomes available for another 3 secondsNaturally, windup should be removed since Warding Rift becomes Surge of the Mist's "tell"After which, if Surge of the Mist is not used, refund a little bit of cooldown back to Warding Rift.Give Staff a new 5 skill.

That would be cool especially with the staff spinning animations transitioning into other. Though I'd think people would complain that it's too strong defensively, as you would have a generous block + blind that then kicks off into an evasive forward dash that knocks people down.

But if that could be implemented fairly, it'll awesome to have a new staff 5. Maybe something like an AoE attack that creates a water field for more support combos.

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@Draygorn.7012 said:

That would be cool especially with the staff spinning animations transitioning into other. Though I'd think people would complain that it's too strong defensively, as you would have a generous block + blind that then kicks off into an evasive forward dash that knocks people down.

But if that could be implemented fairly, it'll awesome to have a new staff 5. Maybe something like an AoE attack that creates a water field for more support combos.

There are some pretty powerful block/flip skills in the game already, plus this is two Energy costing skills, it's just that now they share a single larger cooldown.

For a new Staff 5, I would much rather have a Light Field instead.Rev has a huge problem with Conditions and a Light Field + quick Staff 4 would make a good combo for cleansing conditions.

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@Yasai.3549 said:

That would be cool especially with the staff spinning animations transitioning into other. Though I'd think people would complain that it's too strong defensively, as you would have a generous block + blind that then kicks off into an evasive forward dash that knocks people down.

But if that could be implemented fairly, it'll awesome to have a new staff 5. Maybe something like an AoE attack that creates a water field for more support combos.

There are some pretty powerful block/flip skills in the game already, plus this is two Energy costing skills, it's just that now they share a single larger cooldown.

For a new Staff 5, I would much rather have a Light Field instead.Rev has a huge problem with Conditions and a Light Field + quick Staff 4 would make a good combo for cleansing conditions.

Make that light field a symbol, just to throw one more on all those people hating Symbol Guardians.

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  • 7 months later...

I've played GWs on and off since day 1... I've never posted on the forum but I logged in today for the first time in a while and I just can't even bring myself to play on my Rev with the windup for SoTM, it feels clunky and irritating to use..

Honestly Rev was always a niche class to play, most would laugh us off because it required a level of skill to play, I can't even tell you how many times I have heard about how "other classes do it all with less effort so no point in playing Rev" from the community.. Now with this nerf it's a joke to even use sotm in anything but bronze... if even then..

Man I hope someone sees this thread (and the others on this topic) and considers revisiting this change...

TL;DR..I have nothing constructive to add to the conversation, just wanted to add another voice to the disappointment.

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I feel the same. It's an awesome skill... in PVE where enemies stand still. Anywhere else, good luck landing a single hit unless you preemptively CCed your target (so you need to CC to land more CC lol and it's not like small knockbacks really accomplishes anything). At best you land 2-3 small knockbacks. I feel that now, the only semi reliably way to land it is to use it after Phase Traversal for the quickness. Way too clunky and slow otherwise. Needs a serious buff, it was never OP to begin with.

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It would probably feel better if they just removed both the knock back and the wind up and converted it into a pure evade mobility skill that maybe heals and cleanses. Keep in mind that the the knock back and the evade give it two uses as an offensive and defensive skill, and it was gutted because of its offensive potential

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@"Nivik.2961" said:I think we need to be very vocal about the SotM change. Specifically the wind up time. ANET, completely understand the skills power lvl needs balancing in regards to damage, but this change has just made the skill FEEL BAD TO PLAY. That can’t be your intent when you balance the game. Obviously no one is more invested in making the game fun than the developer, so please recognize that this attempt is not good enough. We want our staff five to feel like it did before the balance. Take the damage, please don’t take the feel of the skill.

I mean sword offhand's block was removed, and the weapon feels horrible to play because its just drop in and hope you can burst them down. Staff has been gutted, infact Id wager and argue power revenant as a whole has been nerfed and gutted and we've been pushed toward condi-herald whom CmC is already looking to nerf again. Revenant is getting to the spot where I as someone who loves the class; And made it my main feels punished because they keep doing these changes needlessly with little regard to if it feels "fun" and fun in my opinion is more important than some suto-failed balance argument that doesn't hold water when other classes STILL are strong and weren't left in the dirt.

Power rev is a joke, and condi will likely not be far behind given the state of things. The class is becoming a literal clone of how necromancer used to be handled; I've not played my revenant in any serious form in months. And that likely wont change given how things are, I really dont feel like the class is fun anymore and I also feel like it will continue to be made unfun until its not played at all. Seems to me they just wana remove it... and no the developer doesn't care about the game or its "fun". They merely want to make the loudest squeaking wheel quite... and we know who those are by just a glance at the forums.

Edit: Condi-herald/Renegade and away from Core/Power rev. We all know power revenant is about to get the nerf bat come the next patch; Because "sHorTbOw tO StRoNk! Reeeeee" And thus will end any hope power revenant truly has to be in competitive outside of hammer cc spam in zergs within WvW. (Even that isn't that great) All of our weapons are beginning to suck, so whats the point? Seems like Rev and those who like it are not wanted here. Thats how it feels and how its felt.

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@Fueki.4753 said:It disgusts me that this skill change still hasn't been reverted.

There was not a single good thing about that change.From what I can see, people just stopped using that skill and Revenant's Staff basically became a weapon with four skills.

I'm newer to rev and have been playing it almost exclusively now - I dare say that after 7ish years as a ranger main, I may now be going to become a rev main.. with that being said, I use this skill both in PvP (WvW) and PvE. I use this skill only in two situations with WvW - I'm fighting a low reactivity opponent OR vs a competent one I only use it with quickness. Unfortunately you have barely enough energy in Shiro to pull off the teleport to and follow up with staff 5, so it tends to come with the trait that gives quickness on legend swap to Shiro.

This might change though as I've been highly considering swapping from that trait to increased energy on next legend when you swap below 10 upkeep.. as I'm really energy starved in WvW.

I personally feel that the biggest and best change they could do to revenant right now is lowering the energy cost on weapon skills in WvW/PvP. Right now most of the utility skills have massive costs, all skills also come with an associated cooldown, and you also have the cooldown on legend swap, and one of our most utilized and important legends, shiro, for in combat mobility and survivability, has absolutely massive energy costs. Often it feels like you use two skills and then you're out of gas and locked inside the legend. Had a few times when I was doing 1v3's that I ended up glancing at my bar to check cooldowns and saw EVERY. SINGLE. SKILL. Greyed out, including weapons because I had no energy. This happens less now as I've progressed in skill and have got better, but it still happens to me occasionally if under any sort of pressure, even in a 1v1.

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@Strider.7849 said:I personally feel that the biggest and best change they could do to revenant right now is lowering the energy cost on weapon skills in WvW/PvP. Right now most of the utility skills have massive costs, all skills also come with an associated cooldown, and you also have the cooldown on legend swap, and one of our most utilized and important legends, shiro, for in combat mobility and survivability, has absolutely massive energy costs. Often it feels like you use two skills and then you're out of gas and locked inside the legend. Had a few times when I was doing 1v3's that I ended up glancing at my bar to check cooldowns and saw EVERY. SINGLE. SKILL. Greyed out, including weapons because I had no energy. This happens less now as I've progressed in skill and have got better, but it still happens to me occasionally if under any sort of pressure, even in a 1v1.

Many people, including me, have hated the Energy cost on Weapons skills since HoT's launch.I still don't know why they thought it was a good idea to gate all skills behind behind Energy costs and cooldowns.

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@"Thornwolf.9721" said:Edit: Condi-herald/Renegade and away from Core/Power rev. We all know power revenant is about to get the nerf bat come the next patch; Because "sHorTbOw tO StRoNk! Reeeeee" And thus will end any hope power revenant truly has to be in competitive outside of hammer cc spam in zergs within WvW. (Even that isn't that great) All of our weapons are beginning to suck, so whats the point? Seems like Rev and those who like it are not wanted here. Thats how it feels and how its felt.

I find it funny that scrubs would complain about Renegade Power with shortbow.

  1. The only burst it has is extremely telegraphed (you see 7 glowy circles appearing in a line in front of the Renegade) and he has to use 2 summons to achieve max burst, so again there are huge glowy circles, just don't stand in there or simply CC the summons.
  2. Summons can be CC'ed or outright killed and just walking or rolling out of their AoE nullifies all effects. Plus, if a Renegade spams them, he has no more energy.
  3. Shortbow doesn't cleave (unless traited for, but it's a condi trait)
  4. Renegade stance and shortbow have no defensive skill making the Renegade extremely vulnerable to burst, CC or focus fire.

I really hope you are wrong and they dont plan a nerf to Pow Rev or Ren. I mean, hell, even on meta battle there's a SINGLE power Renegade build and everybody seems to play condi, hybrid or boonbot/alacrity_dispenser Renegade.

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@ArielRebel.3426 said:

@"Thornwolf.9721" said:Edit: Condi-herald/Renegade and away from Core/Power rev. We all know power revenant is about to get the nerf bat come the next patch; Because "sHorTbOw tO StRoNk! Reeeeee" And thus will end any hope power revenant truly has to be in competitive outside of hammer cc spam in zergs within WvW. (Even that isn't that great) All of our weapons are beginning to suck, so whats the point? Seems like Rev and those who like it are not wanted here. Thats how it feels and how its felt.

I find it funny that scrubs would complain about Renegade Power with shortbow.
  1. The only burst it has is extremely telegraphed (you see 7 glowy circles appearing in a line in front of the Renegade) and he has to use 2 summons to achieve max burst, so again there are huge glowy circles, just don't stand in there or simply CC the summons.
  2. Summons can be CC'ed or outright killed and just walking or rolling out of their AoE nullifies all effects. Plus, if a Renegade spams them, he has no more energy.
  3. Shortbow doesn't cleave (unless traited for, but it's a condi trait)
  4. Renegade stance and shortbow have no defensive skill making the Renegade extremely vulnerable to burst, CC or focus fire.

I really hope you are wrong and they dont plan a nerf to Pow Rev or Ren. I mean, hell, even on meta battle there's a SINGLE power Renegade build and everybody seems to play condi, hybrid or boonbot/alacrity_dispenser Renegade.

Go watch the last stream, they talk about it. And confirm it will be hit with a nerf; Of what nature I have no Idea? But after February and hearing rev is on the chopping block again im just gonna walk away from the class at this point. Why when so many other classes just do everything Rev does even better than it does; As someone who plays WvW and PvP the class is hilariously weak compared to where it was. People complain but I've never had a single problem in a 1 v1 with any rev I encounter; If I die its on me for messing up the engagement. But most of the ones I encounter are fodder regardless of spec and its easy to shut them down, a little CC and cleave/burst with retaliation and resistance with condi-cleanse goes a long way.

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I read this thread and it gives me the impression that the class is trash, but the only things that actually feel bad to me are Ventari and not being able to aim during the windup on Surge of the Mists. I cannot comment on PvP, but at least in WvW the class still feels very strong.

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@Thornwolf.9721 said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:Edit: Condi-herald/Renegade and away from Core/Power rev. We all know power revenant is about to get the nerf bat come the next patch; Because "sHorTbOw tO StRoNk! Reeeeee" And thus will end any hope power revenant truly has to be in competitive outside of hammer cc spam in zergs within WvW. (Even that isn't that great) All of our weapons are beginning to suck, so whats the point? Seems like Rev and those who like it are not wanted here. Thats how it feels and how its felt.

I find it funny that scrubs would complain about Renegade Power with shortbow.
  1. The only burst it has is extremely telegraphed (you see 7 glowy circles appearing in a line in front of the Renegade) and he has to use 2 summons to achieve max burst, so again there are huge glowy circles, just don't stand in there or simply CC the summons.
  2. Summons can be CC'ed or outright killed and just walking or rolling out of their AoE nullifies all effects. Plus, if a Renegade spams them, he has no more energy.
  3. Shortbow doesn't cleave (unless traited for, but it's a condi trait)
  4. Renegade stance and shortbow have no defensive skill making the Renegade extremely vulnerable to burst, CC or focus fire.

I really hope you are wrong and they dont plan a nerf to Pow Rev or Ren. I mean, hell, even on meta battle there's a SINGLE power Renegade build and everybody seems to play condi, hybrid or boonbot/alacrity_dispenser Renegade.

Go watch the last stream, they talk about it. And confirm it will be hit with a nerf; Of what nature I have no Idea? But after February and hearing rev is on the chopping block again im just gonna walk away from the class at this point. Why when so many other classes just do everything Rev does even better than it does; As someone who plays WvW and PvP the class is hilariously weak compared to where it was. People complain but I've never had a single problem in a 1 v1 with any rev I encounter; If I die its on me for messing up the engagement. But most of the ones I encounter are fodder regardless of spec and its easy to shut them down, a little CC and cleave/burst with retaliation and resistance with condi-cleanse goes a long way.

Let's all leave Rev and go play the FOTM class. Maybe when everybody is playing the same class will the crybabies and garbage balancing team finally understand their mistakes. I have no pleasure playing condi Rev, it just feels clunky so I always played Power Rev. Since I came back and saw Ren, I decided to give a condi and hybrid builds a try but to no avail, went back to power. If they gut it, what will be left for me to do? Guess I'll go play ANET's golden child aka guardians, eh?

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@"Pterikdactyl.7630" said:I read this thread and it gives me the impression that the class is trash, but the only things that actually feel bad to me are Ventari and not being able to aim during the windup on Surge of the Mists. I cannot comment on PvP, but at least in WvW the class still feels very strong.

The class isn't trash per say but it's a tiny shadow of what it used to be and it was never OP to begin with. Some tweaks were needed for sure, but nothing crazy. Several overzealous nerfs later and we have an ok-performing class that isn't great at much and is clunky to use and it's reflected in the (extremely) low amount of players actually playing the class. And, according to gw2efficiency, only about 5% of the playerbase doesn't have any of the expansions and/or plays f2p version so the reason barely anybody plays Rev IS NOT because nobody owns HoT, it's just because the class is cluncky to use (as you have to manage both your energy and legends) and doesn't reward the player for having to deal with that extra mechanic.

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@ArielRebel.3426 said:according to gw2efficiencyHow is gw2efficiency any indicator for the player population? It certainly is not a vertical slice of the game's population.I doubt most players are registered there, especially free-to-play players.Even I am not registered and I play multiple hours a day.

It's just an opt-in thing for people who care about their statistics,which I doubt many of the open world-only players care for.

Unless Arenanet comes out with numbers, we have no numbers to interpret and speculate about.

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@Fueki.4753 said:

@"ArielRebel.3426" said:according to gw2efficiencyHow is gw2efficiency any indicator for the player population? It certainly is
not
a vertical slice of the game's population.I doubt most players are registered there, especially free-to-play players.Even I am not registered and I play multiple hours a day.

It's just an opt-in thing for people who care about their statistics,which I doubt many of the open world-only players care for.

Unless Arenanet comes out with numbers, we have no numbers to interpret and speculate about.

It's the closest stats to reality that we have. Also, you seem to be implying the users of the website have a biase (ie: in class selection) and that the website's user base isn't representative of the game's reality. Are you implying that the majority of gw2efficiency users are guardians by chance but that the most popular class in the game isn't actually guardians? There's more chances that it's actually representative than it is not. Unless, for some reason, guardians are more "hardcore" or "serious" players (and thus have a tendancy to research things on the game and use websites like gw2efficiency more often) than Revenant, Engi or Thief players. What you are implying is a long stretch and I'm sure most would disagree with you.

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@Doctor.1384 said:It would probably feel better if they just removed both the knock back and the wind up and converted it into a pure evade mobility skill that maybe heals and cleanses. Keep in mind that the the knock back and the evade give it two uses as an offensive and defensive skill, and it was gutted because of its offensive potential

Let’s not absolutely gut the best CC in PvE simply because it’s somewhat less impactful in PvP/WvW. And no, they can’t skill split what you’re wanting them to do since it would be a functionality change.

@ArielRebel.3426 said:

@"Pterikdactyl.7630" said:I read this thread and it gives me the impression that the class is trash, but the only things that actually feel bad to me are Ventari and not being able to aim during the windup on Surge of the Mists. I cannot comment on PvP, but at least in WvW the class still feels very strong.

The class isn't trash per say but it's a tiny shadow of what it used to be and it was never OP to begin with.

The comment “it was never OP to begin with” is just not factually based at all. Revenant has almost always been in the meta in PvP/WvW since it released and in many cases has been meta defining or one of the strongest meta picks. When you’re a class that routinely beats out 4 of the 9 classes for a slot in a 5 man composition almost always, and at various points have been taken in 2s, 3s, or even 4s, you’re not looking at a class that is “a shadow of what it once was.” Sure, it’s gotten hit by nerfs over the years, but so has literally every other class. After the giant balance patch in February literally every class is “a shadow of what it once was.”

Additionally, **Renegade is meta-defining in PvE for the last year to two years+, and certain versions of Rev have also had strong places in PvE meta at various points since HoT release (though admittedly it did fall off for about a year before PoF released).

Some tweaks were needed for sure, but nothing crazy. Several overzealous nerfs later and we have an ok-performing class that isn't great at much

This isn’t borne out by its current position in any of the game modes.

and is clunky to use

Completely subjective. I personally think Guardian is clunky af and rev is super smooth, but everyone tells me “Guardian is one of the easiest classes ever and easy to use.” I personally disagree but that doesn’t make my opinion about Guardian objective fact. Clunkiness can really only be measured subjectively.

Now, there are some bugs that could get fixed that would make the class smoother and less frustrating at times, but I still would never describe the class as a whole as clunky.

and it's reflected in the (extremely) low amount of players actually playing the class. And, according to gw2efficiency, only about 5% of the playerbase doesn't have any of the expansions and/or plays f2p vers

Gw2 efficiency is potentially incredibly inaccurate. I’m a revenant main with the vast majority of my thousands of hours on rev since HoT, but I have multiples of other classes while I only have 1 rev and mostly only play that one rev. So despite me being a completely dedicated rev main, my gw2 efficiency stats in terms of “quantity of professions” is not even close to accurate. I also have several alt accounts registered on GW2 efficiency that have the expansions and many different characters, but not any revs, further diminishing the revenant numbers.

Also you’re not factoring in that rev is an expansion class so is naturally lower, as there are people who won’t give up their mains no matter what, or have multiples of core classes since all the core classes have been out longer while only having 1 rev.

Lastly, engineer is lower than rev on gw2 efficiency, yet I don’t think anyone would say it’s underrepresented or failing in any game mode.

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