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Mesmer is what Necromancer should be


Fractured.3928

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In my opinion, Necromancer should entirely have the "Clone" mechanic. Cept it wouldn't be clones, and we'd be constantly summoning temporary Undead. I love my Mesmer, and the mechanics of Mesmer, but I constantly keep thinking how much better it would be if we were summoning Undead Archers and Undead melee to assault our enemy.

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@"Fractured.3928" said:In my opinion, Necromancer should entirely have the "Clone" mechanic. Cept it wouldn't be clones, and we'd be constantly summoning temporary Undead. I love my Mesmer, and the mechanics of Mesmer, but I constantly keep thinking how much better it would be if we were summoning Undead Archers and Undead melee to assault our enemy.

The upcomming diablo clone The Last Epoch features a necromancer class. They can specialize in various ways of blowing up their own minions for special effects.

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@"Fractured.3928" said:In my opinion, Necromancer should entirely have the "Clone" mechanic. Cept it wouldn't be clones, and we'd be constantly summoning temporary Undead. I love my Mesmer, and the mechanics of Mesmer, but I constantly keep thinking how much better it would be if we were summoning Undead Archers and Undead melee to assault our enemy.

I think that concept better used as a new elite spec focused on summoning minions with a skill bar like scourge. The E-Specs and core already have their identities.

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@Redpawa.4108 said:

@"Fractured.3928" said:In my opinion, Necromancer should entirely have the "Clone" mechanic. Cept it wouldn't be clones, and we'd be constantly summoning temporary Undead. I love my Mesmer, and the mechanics of Mesmer, but I constantly keep thinking how much better it would be if we were summoning Undead Archers and Undead melee to assault our enemy.

I think that concept better used as a new elite spec focused on summoning minions with a skill bar like scourge. The E-Specs and core already have their identities.

It was meant more as a discussion, than a request. Obviously they aren't going to change core mechanics of a class like that lol.

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I had a odd dream.

I dreamed one night of necromancer using nightmares to attacking your health and stamina maybe even pets fearing. I imagined the pets not doing damage at all but rather illusions sort of like mesmer illusions but damaging your stamina wearing you outputting condis.

Its more akin to an actual mesmer but with nightmares.

Maybe you could even have different kind of nightmare types the physical kind that do do a bit of small amount of dmg, the ones akin to attacking you with conditions such as confusion and torment, some who cripple blind

Maybe horrify makes a person frozen with fear and unable to move instead of running, but shorter duration and maybe it does a bit of burst of dmg.

It was more akin to everquest necromancer using nightmare monsters rather than GW2 nightmare monsters.

I guess i really wanted a necromancer based on nightmare realm monsters illusionist type but necromancy type. Imagine for instance if you could illusion of cool monster maybe get some benefits maybe gw2 nightmare illusion. Then again you already got lich which is sorta like that.

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@Axl.8924 said:I had a odd dream.

I dreamed one night of necromancer using nightmares to attacking your health and stamina maybe even pets fearing. I imagined the pets not doing damage at all but rather illusions sort of like mesmer illusions but damaging your stamina wearing you outputting condis.

Its more akin to an actual mesmer but with nightmares.

Maybe you could even have different kind of nightmare types the physical kind that do do a bit of small amount of dmg, the ones akin to attacking you with conditions such as confusion and torment, some who cripple blind

Maybe horrify makes a person frozen with fear and unable to move instead of running, but shorter duration and maybe it does a bit of burst of dmg.

It was more akin to everquest necromancer using nightmare monsters rather than GW2 nightmare monsters.

I guess i really wanted a necromancer based on nightmare realm monsters illusionist type but necromancy type. Imagine for instance if you could illusion of cool monster maybe get some benefits maybe gw2 nightmare illusion. Then again you already got lich which is sorta like that.

Unsure if you're aware, Mesmer illusions/clones do a ton of damage actually.

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@Fractured.3928 said:

@Axl.8924 said:I had a odd dream.

I dreamed one night of necromancer using nightmares to attacking your health and stamina maybe even pets fearing. I imagined the pets not doing damage at all but rather illusions sort of like mesmer illusions but damaging your stamina wearing you outputting condis.

Its more akin to an actual mesmer but with nightmares.

Maybe you could even have different kind of nightmare types the physical kind that do do a bit of small amount of dmg, the ones akin to attacking you with conditions such as confusion and torment, some who cripple blind

Maybe horrify makes a person frozen with fear and unable to move instead of running, but shorter duration and maybe it does a bit of burst of dmg.

It was more akin to everquest necromancer using nightmare monsters rather than GW2 nightmare monsters.

I guess i really wanted a necromancer based on nightmare realm monsters illusionist type but necromancy type. Imagine for instance if you could illusion of cool monster maybe get some benefits maybe gw2 nightmare illusion. Then again you already got lich which is sorta like that.

Unsure if you're aware, Mesmer illusions/clones do a ton of damage actually.

Yeah i know, and i was kinda inspired by mes illusions a little i admit, but more akin to actual nightmare creatures that are not clones.

I wanted to have horrify necromancer be equivalent of eq mez where you are frozen in fear and unable to move for crowd control and maybe throw a field aoe that damages enemies stamina and health maybe gives to your team or something and slows their attack down due to mental degradation or something.

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If necromancer was an AI class I would not play it. I mained mesmer in guild wars 1 and the illusion thing was the main reason I did not pick it in guild wars 2.

Necromancy is not necessarily bound to undeath minions but to black magic in general, which includes hexing and cursing.

The current necromancer design is on spot. It has options for minions and options for spells as well. Mesmer is much more one-dimensional. You can't play it without illusions, which is a huge design flaw / limitation to my opinion. The guild wars 1 mesmer was way more flexible than the guild wars 2 counterpart.

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@KrHome.1920 said:If necromancer was an AI class I would not play it. I mained mesmer in guild wars 1 and the illusion thing was the main reason I did not pick it in guild wars 2.

Necromancy is not necessarily bound to undeath minions but to black magic in general, which includes hexing and cursing.

The current necromancer design is on spot. It has options for minions and options for spells as well. Mesmer is much more one-dimensional. You can't play it without illusions, which is a huge design flaw / limitation to my opinion. The guild wars 1 mesmer was way more flexible than the guild wars 2 counterpart.

Necromancy is actually specifically about interacting with the dead. The actual definition. Curses and stuff was just added in D2 as far as I'm aware. Maybe EQ. But ya, the actual definition has nothing to do with hex's or cursing. But whatever /shrug.

Also, GW1 Mesmer worked off of mechanics that aren't really relevant in GW1. At least not to the point where you could focus on it, like it did in GW1.

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@Fractured.3928 said:

@KrHome.1920 said:If necromancer was an AI class I would not play it. I mained mesmer in guild wars 1 and the illusion thing was the main reason I did not pick it in guild wars 2.

Necromancy is not necessarily bound to undeath minions but to black magic in general, which includes hexing and cursing.

The current necromancer design is on spot. It has options for minions and options for spells as well. Mesmer is much more one-dimensional. You can't play it without illusions, which is a huge design flaw / limitation to my opinion. The guild wars 1 mesmer was way more flexible than the guild wars 2 counterpart.

Necromancy is actually specifically about interacting with the dead.

No it's not exclusively. I've looked up the definition before I have written my post. The definition varies.

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@KrHome.1920 said:

@KrHome.1920 said:If necromancer was an AI class I would not play it. I mained mesmer in guild wars 1 and the illusion thing was the main reason I did not pick it in guild wars 2.

Necromancy is not necessarily bound to undeath minions but to black magic in general, which includes hexing and cursing.

The current necromancer design is on spot. It has options for minions and options for spells as well. Mesmer is much more one-dimensional. You can't play it without illusions, which is a huge design flaw / limitation to my opinion. The guild wars 1 mesmer was way more flexible than the guild wars 2 counterpart.

Necromancy is actually specifically about interacting with the dead.

No it's not exclusively. I've looked up the definition before I have written my post. The definition varies.

The definition varies on like, a couple websites. And the people who use it as "General Black Magic" are incorrect, considering the word "Necro" LITERALLY refers to corpses/the dead. People misuse words all the time due to a lack of understanding.

I fully agree that Necromancy falls into the Black Magic/Dark Arts category. But it is not Black Magic itself. And for some reason, I believe that is where the confusion comes into play.

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@Fractured.3928 said:

@"Khailyn.6248" said:If we had an elite spec for necromancer through the lens of a mesmer Id imagine it being kinda like Liadri and the clones being shadow people that blow up when touched. Could be fun.

Shadow people eh? lol. Here I am, just wanting to spam undead minions heh.

being able to spam out weaker minions iss cool ans a nice throwback to gw1. i just prefer the idea of 'shadow people' b/c of its creepy ghost angle and its more similar to mesmer. win/win either way.

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@"rdigeri.7935" said:Would you guys like if there was a Black Magic profession separate from necromancer?

I still want a spec that alters the functionality of Shroud depending on the Grand Master trait you choose, similar to how Daredevil's changes it's dodge.

I have this vision of a Necro that could enter a Shroud centered on mobility that makes it run on all fours like a wild beast. Or a Shroud that has mid range Siphon attacks that are like swipes and slashes. Or a Shroud for heavy CC that gives you a hammer and summons things like skeletal hands to enhance certain CC combos.

I would say it would be "too much work" for ANet to design such a thing but then we have Weaver with all it's weapon/Element combinations so, I don't think it's unrealistic. I'd just love to see something that gives more flavor to Shroud beyond pew pew ( core ), cleave ( Reaper ) and puke AOE ( Scourge ). Not that those aren't fun or useful, just that I think Shroud could be made in to a much more versatile and complex mechanic.

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@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:

@"rdigeri.7935" said:Would you guys like if there was a Black Magic profession separate from necromancer?

I still want a spec that alters the functionality of Shroud depending on the Grand Master trait you choose, similar to how Daredevil's changes it's dodge.

I have this vision of a Necro that could enter a Shroud centered on mobility that makes it run on all fours like a wild beast. Or a Shroud that has mid range Siphon attacks that are like swipes and slashes. Or a Shroud for heavy CC that gives you a hammer and summons things like skeletal hands to enhance certain CC combos.

I would say it would be "too much work" for ANet to design such a thing but then we have Weaver with all it's weapon/Element combinations so, I don't think it's unrealistic. I'd just love to see something that gives more flavor to Shroud beyond pew pew ( core ), cleave ( Reaper ) and puke AOE ( Scourge ). Not that those aren't fun or useful, just that I think Shroud could be made in to a much more versatile and complex mechanic.

For sure, shroud customization would be amazing. I think other classes that have important secondary states could use some more customization as well (sure, holo has some through traits, but they're not that impactful)

I especially love your four legs idea.I'd also love more life force interactions overall, like being able to 'siphon' some through a high value shroud skill, or being able to expend it on some upkept ones..

How would you like an elite skill for this spec that changed your grandmaster trait mid-combat, allowing you to change your shroud?

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Customizing shroud is the purpose of the elite specs. Customizing it even more flexible is asking for a balancing nightmare.

The game is already much more complex than guild wars 1 even though it is much less flexible in terms of skill allocation. The complexity comes from its mechanical superiority. In gw1 you could just walk (very slowly) and use your 8 skills. In gw2 the skills are mechanically more complex, you can dodge, evade, block, kite, stealth, set up attacks, use terrain... the general impact of skills is much harder to determine than in gw1 because there are tons of ways to combo or avoid them.

Elementalist is different. It is not truely flexible. It is just awful to play (the piano class - and I even can play piano!) since you have to do skill- and attunement-combos all day to be decent at the class. Camping one attunement is not viable and I don't want necro to be a class that has to switch between different shrouds not because it's fancy but because otherwise you could not kill anything. No... thanks... !

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@"KrHome.1920" said:Customizing shroud is the purpose of the elite specs. Customizing it even more flexible is asking for a balancing nightmare.

The game is already much more complex than guild wars 1 even though it is much less flexible in terms of skill allocation. The complexity comes from its mechanical superiority. In gw1 you could just walk (very slowly) and use your 8 skills. In gw2 the skills are mechanically more complex, you can dodge, evade, block, kite, stealth, set up attacks, use terrain... the general impact of skills is much harder to determine than in gw1 because there are tons of ways to combo or avoid them.

Elementalist is different. It is not truely flexible. It is just awful to play (the piano class - and I even can play piano!) since you have to do skill- and attunement-combos all day to be decent at the class. Camping one attunement is not viable and I don't want necro to be a class that has to switch between different shrouds not because it's fancy but because otherwise you could not kill anything. No... thanks... !

He didn't mean that you have all 3 shrouds available the whole time. He meant that you can choose 1 of 3 shrouds with the elite spec. Like you can customise your dodge on Daredevil (either dealing condi damage, hit damage, or removing movement impairing effects) or how you can customise your Function Gyro on Scrapper (it either dazes enemies, gives allies stability, or gives allies superspeed).

You could still be right that this might potentially become a balancing problem, since these other 2 classes just change one skill in their arsenal, while he suggests to choose between 3 different kits with 5 skills each. But just wanted to clarify, he didn't mean that you can "piano" between different shrouds all the time as a necro.

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@Kodama.6453 said:

@KrHome.1920 said:Customizing shroud is the purpose of the elite specs. Customizing it even more flexible is asking for a balancing nightmare.

The game is already much more complex than guild wars 1 even though it is much less flexible in terms of skill allocation. The complexity comes from its mechanical superiority. In gw1 you could just walk (very slowly) and use your 8 skills. In gw2 the skills are mechanically more complex, you can dodge, evade, block, kite, stealth, set up attacks, use terrain... the general impact of skills is much harder to determine than in gw1 because there are tons of ways to combo or avoid them.

Elementalist is different. It is not truely flexible. It is just awful to play (the piano class - and I even can play piano!) since you have to do skill- and attunement-combos all day to be decent at the class. Camping one attunement is not viable and I don't want necro to be a class that has to switch between different shrouds not because it's fancy but because otherwise you could not kill anything. No... thanks... !

He didn't mean that you have all 3 shrouds available the whole time. He meant that you can choose 1 of 3 shrouds with the elite spec. Like you can customise your dodge on Daredevil (either dealing condi damage, hit damage, or removing movement impairing effects) or how you can customise your Function Gyro on Scrapper (it either dazes enemies, gives allies stability, or gives allies superspeed).

You could still be right that this might potentially become a balancing problem, since these other 2 classes just change one skill in their arsenal, while he suggests to choose between 3 different kits with 5 skills each. But just wanted to clarify, he didn't mean that you can "piano" between different shrouds all the time as a necro.

This, yes. But also agreed. I understand it could be a difficult thing to balance because I envision each Shroud having unique skills with perhaps some more directed at Condition and others at Power. Still, I think it would be amazing to choose what your Shroud is like depending on your Grand Master choice. Could open up so many unique build styles.

@rdigeri.7935 said:

@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:

@rdigeri.7935 said:Would you guys like if there was a Black Magic profession separate from necromancer?

I still want a spec that alters the functionality of Shroud depending on the Grand Master trait you choose, similar to how Daredevil's changes it's dodge.

I have this vision of a Necro that could enter a Shroud centered on mobility that makes it run on all fours like a wild beast. Or a Shroud that has mid range Siphon attacks that are like swipes and slashes. Or a Shroud for heavy CC that gives you a hammer and summons things like skeletal hands to enhance certain CC combos.

I would say it would be "too much work" for ANet to design such a thing but then we have Weaver with all it's weapon/Element combinations so, I don't think it's unrealistic. I'd just love to see something that gives more flavor to Shroud beyond pew pew ( core ), cleave ( Reaper ) and puke AOE ( Scourge ). Not that those aren't fun or useful, just that I think Shroud could be made in to a much more versatile and complex mechanic.

For sure, shroud customization would be amazing. I think other classes that have important secondary states could use some more customization as well (sure, holo has some through traits, but they're not that impactful)

I especially love your four legs idea.I'd also love more life force interactions overall, like being able to 'siphon' some through a high value shroud skill, or being able to expend it on some upkept ones..

How would you like an elite skill for this spec that changed your grandmaster trait mid-combat, allowing you to change your shroud?

I think that would be too powerful and difficult to balance as @KrHome.1920 said but I do think the idea is cool in concept.

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It would be interesting to have a spectral shroud. Customizing shroud based on which trait line is in the third slot could be fun.

Spite - Death Shroud?Death Magic - Minion Shroud?Curses - Plague Shroud?Blood Magic - Ritual (wells) Shroud?Soul Reaping - Spectral Shroud?

Something like this is a lot of creative, development, and balance work but I can dream.

A simpler solution is to attach a modifier to a grand master trait that consumes LF instead of a shroud transform to buff some skill.

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