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WvW Participation


Senji.2048

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@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Kovu.7560 said:They should just tie pips to
doing
things. Killed an enemy player? 1 pip (on a cooldown, perhaps 30 seconds). Escort a dolyak? 1 pip. Successfully defend a structure? 1 pip. Capture a camp? 2 pips. Capture a tower? 4 pips. Capture a keep? 6 pips. I'm not entirely sure why pips
need
to be tied to a 5-minute cycle. We're not trying to participate in some form of pve meta event.

~ Kovu

That would create more KTrains.

i agree with Kovu here. There's really no win-win in this

Sure there is. Put max Pips in EotM or Armstice Bastion, and let all the AFKers go there. Main maps get clear of deadbeats (added bonus that if its Armstice Bastion Anet will get $$ from all the ppt heroes dropping money on getting a max pip map).

That's like having your mother tell you to clean your room and instead of cleaning your room you push the mess into the closet.We should be looking for solutions that encourage playing the game, not slapping a bandaid on the queue issue by designating a place for afk'ers to sit around and have their free stuff handed to them. That said, I would be in favor of normal pip progression in EotM, along with normal (restored) wxp gain. Nobody really cares if that place turns into an uplevel karma train.-- Except, I guess, for the people who feel granting too many rewards to EotM karma trainers will discourage playing the actual gamemode. Can't really have it both ways, though.

~ Kovu

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I'm not a great zerg player - it's ok but really it feels the same as a K train usually.I prefer to roam and harrass camps, kill guards to pop swords, scout enemies, run yaks. If I can get away with it, I will set up a lone cata/ram/treb and open a structure then call in map so others can share the capture. I'll repair walls after a defence (because the zerg didn't) and I'll stop a while in a keep to set siege ready and defend it if required. My actions benefit my team.Why do you have this assumption that I should get less reward just because I don't run with the blob all the time?

Given the choice, I'd restore EoM and let players k-train there if they want (although you'd have to be in WvW to gain any WvW mastery experience), but then I'd also restore manual upgrades for WvW structures to make them worth hanging on to. What's the point of defending a place when you can flip it back later and just let it auto upgrade? No investment = no worth = no fights.

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@TheGrimm.5624 said:

@Senji.2048 said:I would like to address the issue of receiving rewards through wvw participation.Simply said:
  • remove participation from: hitting and destroying enemy structures with siege, repairing structures, killing enemy npcs
  • reduce participation period, thus encourage players to be active more often

It's quite frustrating to be on a map with a queue, with people standing around, repairing walls and only occasionally joining the action, just to go afk again.

If you see bots, report and move on. To punish players for already doing less than desired activities make no sense. Repairing is already quite often left to the others as the zergs will move on versus stopping to repair. This would just leads to less people stopping to run back and fourth to repair. Its already a dull un-thankful activity. So no, if anything pay them more since this is a dull task that means you are not in the fight at the time.

Repairing or building siege cost supply, so it is part of wvw infrastructure. That is also why people take back camps and try to defend areas (tower and keeps).

It leads to thieves and other players having targets to go after in wvw so it would just create less people to play in wvw. Not everybody is for pew pew 1v1 or 1vX.

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@Kovu.7560 said:

@Kovu.7560 said:They should just tie pips to
doing
things. Killed an enemy player? 1 pip (on a cooldown, perhaps 30 seconds). Escort a dolyak? 1 pip. Successfully defend a structure? 1 pip. Capture a camp? 2 pips. Capture a tower? 4 pips. Capture a keep? 6 pips. I'm not entirely sure why pips
need
to be tied to a 5-minute cycle. We're not trying to participate in some form of pve meta event.

~ Kovu

That would create more KTrains.

i agree with Kovu here. There's really no win-win in this

Sure there is. Put max Pips in EotM or Armstice Bastion, and let all the AFKers go there. Main maps get clear of deadbeats (added bonus that if its Armstice Bastion Anet will get $$ from all the ppt heroes dropping money on getting a max pip map).

That's like having your mother tell you to clean your room and instead of cleaning your room you push the mess into the closet.We should be looking for solutions that
encourage
playing the game, not slapping a bandaid on the queue issue by designating a place for afk'ers to sit around and have their free stuff handed to them. That said, I would be in favor of
normal
pip progression in EotM, along with
normal
(restored) wxp gain. Nobody really cares if
that
place turns into an uplevel karma train.-- Except, I guess, for the people who feel granting too many rewards to EotM karma trainers will discourage playing the actual gamemode. Can't really have it both ways, though.

~ Kovu

Oh I'd rather pips be returned to EotM. Let people level and get their rewards there, WvW will be there when they really want it. My point is though that people are complaining about afk trash, so sweep the afk trash to where it doesn't bother anyone.

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@TheGrimm.5624 said:

@"Senji.2048" said:I would like to address the issue of receiving rewards through wvw participation.Simply said:
  • remove participation from: hitting and destroying enemy structures with siege, repairing structures, killing enemy npcs
  • reduce participation period, thus encourage players to be active more often

It's quite frustrating to be on a map with a queue, with people standing around, repairing walls and only occasionally joining the action, just to go afk again.

If you see bots, report and move on. To punish players for already doing less than desired activities make no sense. Repairing is already quite often left to the others as the zergs will move on versus stopping to repair. This would just leads to less people stopping to run back and fourth to repair. Its already a dull un-thankful activity. So no, if anything pay them more since this is a dull task that means you are not in the fight at the time.

I am one of those wall fixers. One night spent five hours fixing keep wall, with no help. The enemy zerg tried taking our keep many times, but because I was tending to it I was there to make the call out and the fixed wall bought our zerg time to fight them off. The next night I decide I am not going to be responsible for the walls. My team fought the off the first time, pinned the wall close and ran off. I went with them. We were barely at the next tower when the keep flipped.

Those people standing around or fixing walls or manning seige some times have a purpose in the current wvw. Maybe circumstance make it so that is all they can do that night -- maybe they are at work and have to leave for a customer, maybe they are doing homework, whatever, at least the are there. They join the fight when they can. What's it to you if they get pips. It not like they are taking from you.

And the problem is not so endemic that it is hurting your team. Like the "free up names" argument, it is only speculation that it is a afker keeping you in queue.

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Yes there are a bunch of leeches, but this system helps those people that spend hours doing passive defense like refreshing siege, taking back the camp, and walking the dolyaks. You know, the stuff "pro" players can't be bothered doing. God forbid them afk for a bit every now and then.

Also, people complaining about afkers reminds me of... https://imgflip.com/i/3ryzwf

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@"Senji.2048" said:I would like to address the issue of receiving rewards through wvw participation.Simply said:

  • remove participation from: hitting and destroying enemy structures with siege, repairing structures, killing enemy npcs
  • reduce participation period, thus encourage players to be active more often

It's quite frustrating to be on a map with a queue, with people standing around, repairing walls and only occasionally joining the action, just to go afk again.

What amasing server do you come from where there aren't completely dead periods without any enemy players?

Besides, this is pretty much the only reason that people ever "stay home" and take care of our objectives, if the system was changed or removed, they'd all be forced to be out on the battlefield, and all our stuff would constantly be flipped and drained, and we'd never even get scouting reports about that happening because no one would be there.

If anything we need /more/ Participation for scouting, defending, escorting yaks and supplies, building and refreshing siege, etc.

Show me an RTS game where the player doesn't build a base, show me an FPS game where the player doesn't defend a base. Defensive play is very important and is the backbone of offensive play. If this game had better base building/management, you'd see more war, not less, because disrupting that gives the enemy team more things to do. There would be constant pressure to keep your enemy from building up too much, from getting too strong, kind of like why comms always go after T3 objectives in the current meta.

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Or just remove participation from the game mode completely.

Those who play WvW regularly never have any issues keeping T6 since it doesn't reset when you log off, and anyone who intends to 'afk' and abuse the pip system is already doing so by repairing SMC, etc..it isn't like they are actively being forced to contribute to the game by the participation system, if anything, it means they waste supply, and generally make things worse.

The only people negatively impacted by the participation system are those who play strategically, either by scouting out borderlands / tracking enemy zergs, staying around to construct siege, etc.

The way I see it, participation isn't really a hurdle for those looking to game / abuse the system, but because it exists, legitimate WvW players can be negatively impacted.

So just get rid of it.

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@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@"Balthazzarr.1349" said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:Or put pips back into EotM. Or put max pips in Armstice Bastion. Let people have a place to afk with max pips.

Obsidian Sanctum

That works too, but EotM would be more fun.

EoTM is still there. If people want to play it, then fine.

If people want to Pip down (which makes no sense anymore) they can do it in Obsidean Sanctum.

No new things needed.

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@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@"Balthazzarr.1349" said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:Or put pips back into EotM. Or put max pips in Armstice Bastion. Let people have a place to afk with max pips.

Obsidian Sanctum

That works too, but EotM would be more fun.

EoTM is still there. If people want to play it, then fine.

If people want to Pip down (which makes no sense anymore) they can do it in Obsidean Sanctum.

No new things needed.

Except that there is no guarantee that Outnumbered will be there, so people stay in their outnumbered maps, which is the issue. People being AFK in EB, ABL, or DBL maps. Give OS a permanent Outnumbered buff and everyone will migrate there. Same applies for EotM or Armstice Bastion, at least in those two maps there is more to do than OS. Just saying "Pip down in OS" ignores the reason people DONT pip down there.

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You should get participation for anything that aids your side. We can't code around what people might try and game the system with. Personally I don't like people that just macro while on seige, but that doesn't mean damaging walls should not add participation, it just means we need to address the issue of being able to macro while on siege.

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@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@"Balthazzarr.1349" said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:Or put pips back into EotM. Or put max pips in Armstice Bastion. Let people have a place to afk with max pips.

Obsidian Sanctum

That works too, but EotM would be more fun.

EoTM is still there. If people want to play it, then fine.

If people want to Pip down (which makes no sense anymore) they can do it in Obsidean Sanctum.

No new things needed.

Except that there is no guarantee that Outnumbered will be there, so people stay in their outnumbered maps, which is the issue. People being AFK in EB, ABL, or DBL maps. Give OS a permanent Outnumbered buff and everyone will migrate there. Same applies for EotM or Armstice Bastion, at least in those two maps there is more to do than OS. Just saying "Pip down in OS" ignores the reason people DONT pip down there.

And it’s still an OH WELL.

Very few people still ‘pIp down’ since they created the way to keep participation when you leave WvW.

And if your maps are that full, that you have queues on your maps, then maybe you need to move to a less populated server.

Even the evil empire is lucky to have one map queued... Two at reset. Maybe.

EoTM needs no changes.

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@TheGrimm.5624 said:You should get participation for anything that aids your side.

Except we don't. If you engage in a fight and are downed/defeated, unless any of the enemy players you tagged also get defeated, you see no WXP, nor do you get any participation, especially if it was open field since you won't even get the pity reward one gets when an objective you tried to defend gets flipped.

If you spend any time building / refreshing siege, laying traps, etc - nada.

If you decide to shadow tail an enemy group moving in your territory, reporting their position on /t, that rewards no participation unless some commander invites you to a squad and tags you for squad participation (which is why that exists btw, but some times there are no tags running).

Those are 3 reasonable situations I can think of where players are fully engaged in the game, yet are penalized by the current system. And what does someone who wants to soak up pips need in order to circumvent the same system? An enemy player using a Treb + access to supply.

That's why I'm calling into question whether or not the current participation system still makes any sense, and is it hurting the game mode more than helping at this point? Maybe I'm wrong, and if ANET removed participation completely we'd all have map queues because PvEers would be sitting in spawn, pressing the 'w' key every 10 minutes while watching Netflix. But at least I think it is something that should be discussed, and as I've stated before, I never have, nor do I ever have any issues keeping at T6, so I have no dog in this fight.

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@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

@TheGrimm.5624 said:You should get participation for anything that aids your side.

Except we don't. If you engage in a fight and are downed/defeated, unless any of the enemy players you tagged also get defeated, you see no WXP, nor do you get any participation, especially if it was open field since you won't even get the pity reward one gets when an objective you tried to defend gets flipped.

If you spend any time building / refreshing siege, laying traps, etc - nada.

If you decide to shadow tail an enemy group moving in your territory, reporting their position on /t, that rewards no participation unless some commander invites you to a squad and tags you for squad participation (which is why that exists btw, but some times there are no tags running).

Those are 3 reasonable situations I can think of where players are fully engaged in the game, yet are penalized by the current system. And what does someone who wants to soak up pips need in order to circumvent the same system? An enemy player using a Treb + access to supply.

That's why I'm calling into question whether or not the current participation system still makes any sense, and is it hurting the game mode more than helping at this point? Maybe I'm wrong, and if ANET removed participation completely we'd all have map queues because PvEers would be sitting in spawn, pressing the 'w' key every 10 minutes while watching Netflix. But at least I think it is something that should be discussed, and as I've stated before, I never have, nor do I ever have any issues keeping at T6, so I have no dog in this fight.

My short answer was too short, I agree, I just summarized it in too short of a way. Fighting should trigger it, win or lose, siege building, siege refreshing (if 30 mins or less before despawn), running yaks, repairing. Maintenance isn't fun but it's needed and is a boon to a side.

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@TheGrimm.5624 said:

@TheGrimm.5624 said:You should get participation for anything that aids your side.

Except we don't. If you engage in a fight and are downed/defeated, unless any of the enemy players you tagged also get defeated, you see no WXP, nor do you get any participation, especially if it was open field since you won't even get the pity reward one gets when an objective you tried to defend gets flipped.

If you spend any time building / refreshing siege, laying traps, etc - nada.

If you decide to shadow tail an enemy group moving in your territory, reporting their position on /t, that rewards no participation unless some commander invites you to a squad and tags you for squad participation (which is why that exists btw, but some times there are no tags running).

Those are 3 reasonable situations I can think of where players are fully engaged in the game, yet are penalized by the current system. And what does someone who wants to soak up pips need in order to circumvent the same system? An enemy player using a Treb + access to supply.

That's why I'm calling into question whether or not the current participation system still makes any sense, and is it hurting the game mode more than helping at this point? Maybe I'm wrong, and if ANET removed participation completely we'd all have map queues because PvEers would be sitting in spawn, pressing the 'w' key every 10 minutes while watching Netflix. But at least I think it is something that should be discussed, and as I've stated before, I never have, nor do I ever have any issues keeping at T6, so I have no dog in this fight.

My short answer was too short, I agree, I just summarized it in too short of a way. Fighting should trigger it, win or lose,
siege building
, siege refreshing (if 30 mins or less before despawn), running yaks, repairing. Maintenance isn't fun but it's needed and is a boon to a side.

Siege trolls? They would be on all borders.

Siege refreshing? So they can literally walk from weapon to weapon every few minutes, hop on then off, and move to the next? That’s better than trebbing?

Repairing? So, people already do this at SMC. Especially where it is if no benefit.

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@Strider Pj.2193 said:Siege trolls? They would be on all borders.

Siege refreshing? So they can literally walk from weapon to weapon every few minutes, hop on then off, and move to the next? That’s better than trebbing?

Repairing? So, people already do this at SMC. Especially where it is if no benefit.

Siege trolls, depends on how you code it. Does the siege do any damage to a structure or players after being built, participation, if no, no. Does it do any in the next 30 mins, participation (just once) to the builder since it was used.

Siege refreshing, was the siege going to expire in the next 15-30, participation, outside of that no. You could make it even smarter if you accounted for repairs to siege that had damage or killed enemy objectives since last refresh since they would have higher odds of being more relevant.

Repairs, how can you tell bad from good. Any repairs means there was damage done. Maybe more for repairs if structure is un-attack at the time. You already get WxP for repairs, why not participation? What worse is if you are the only person left to repair when the zerg leaves you might be doing that repair for a while.

Again not saying code for people gaming the system but figure out a pattern that doesn't penalize people that are not. Not looking to increase AFKers or bots but don't short change the people doing the dirty work.

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@LetoII.3782 said:

@Kovu.7560 said:I'm not entirely sure why pips
need
to be tied to a 5-minute cycle.

In the free-to-play meta, engagement is the key word. Not how fun, but how long they can keep you logged in. Whole lectures, whole seminars devoted to tricks for keeping you looking at the gem store.

I'd hardly call chilling at spawn engaging, but if the goal is to simply keep you logged in then timegating weekly rewards behind a repeating 5 minute clock will certainly accomplish that.

edit- Then again there are people who chill in the race cities RPing for hours on end. They don't contribute or take away anything from the mechanical aspect of the game, but they're engaged in their own right. I suppose there's no distinction as far as Anet is concerned between RPers and people chilling at spawns in wvw.

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@Kovu.7560 said:

@Kovu.7560 said:I'm not entirely sure why pips
need
to be tied to a 5-minute cycle.

In the free-to-play meta, engagement is the key word. Not how fun, but how long they can keep you logged in. Whole lectures, whole seminars devoted to tricks for keeping you looking at the gem store.

I'd hardly call chilling at spawn engaging, but if the goal is to simply keep you logged in then timegating weekly rewards behind a repeating 5 minute clock will certainly accomplish that.

It's their term, not mine.You've heard of Skinner Box theory? Same idea. The idea isn't necessarily to be bored, but actually being entertained isn't either. What's important is eyes on screen, logged in time. When you're "engaged" there's a chance you'll spend. Law of averages says the more people, the more spenders. YouTube has a lot of game conference lectures that do a pretty good job of explaining the ideas in detail... I find it all a bit gross, but people hate sub fees.

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@LetoII.3782 said:

@Kovu.7560 said:I'm not entirely sure why pips
need
to be tied to a 5-minute cycle.

In the free-to-play meta, engagement is the key word. Not how fun, but how long they can keep you logged in. Whole lectures, whole seminars devoted to tricks for keeping you looking at the gem store.

I'd hardly call chilling at spawn engaging, but if the goal is to simply keep you logged in then timegating weekly rewards behind a repeating 5 minute clock will certainly accomplish that.

It's their term, not mine.You've heard of Skinner Box theory? Same idea. The idea isn't necessarily to be bored, but actually being entertained isn't either. What's important is eyes on screen, logged in time. When you're "engaged" there's a chance you'll spend. Law of averages says the more people, the more spenders. YouTube has a lot of game conference lectures that do a pretty good job of explaining the ideas in detail... I find it all a bit gross, but people hate sub fees.

If they want more money then show more bobs and lasagna. Kids pay a lot for those. Psychology and skinner boxes? Pffft. That's for AAA games. WvW needs to go full animu if they want to fund it.

D:

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