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So as we all know the next expansion will finally take us back to Cantha, and with that it makes sense that Revenant's connection to the Canthan Ritualist will finally be explored.The talk of whether or not it should happen, or will it even be called Ritualist and what legend would accompany it has been going on in other threads, so I thought that it would be better if we focus that discussion in one thread.While the spirits were already given to Renegade, what I'd like to see explored with Master Togo as my legend of choice is the Channeling Magic aspect of the Ritualist, with scepter as our new e-spec weapon.But with that said, we know that a ranged main hand wouldn't work with our current two off-hands, so I'd like to see focus, warhorn or dagger added with the scepter or as a new weapon.

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@Elric.4713 said:So as we all know the next expansion will finally take us back to Cantha, and with that it makes sense that Revenant's connection to the Canthan Ritualist will finally be explored.The talk of whether or not it should happen, or will it even be called Ritualist and what legend would accompany it has been going on in other threads, so I thought that it would be better if we focus that discussion in one thread.While the spirits were already given to Renegade, what I'd like to see explored with Master Togo as my legend of choice is the Channeling Magic aspect of the Ritualist, with scepter as our new e-spec weapon.But with that said, we know that a ranged main hand wouldn't work with our current two off-hands, so I'd like to see focus, warhorn or dagger added with the scepter or as a new weapon.

as much as i would like to play with warhorn or dagger, i could see that greatsword will come. Esp cuz 7/10 revs would prefer that.

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@Virdo.1540 said:

@Elric.4713 said:So as we all know the next expansion will finally take us back to Cantha, and with that it makes sense that Revenant's connection to the Canthan Ritualist will finally be explored.The talk of whether or not it should happen, or will it even be called Ritualist and what legend would accompany it has been going on in other threads, so I thought that it would be better if we focus that discussion in one thread.While the spirits were already given to Renegade, what I'd like to see explored with Master Togo as my legend of choice is the Channeling Magic aspect of the Ritualist, with scepter as our new e-spec weapon.But with that said, we know that a ranged main hand wouldn't work with our current two off-hands, so I'd like to see focus, warhorn or dagger added with the scepter or as a new weapon.

as much as i would like to play with warhorn or dagger, i could see that greatsword will come. Esp cuz 7/10 revs would prefer that.

Hopefully Arena Net doesn't design specializations based on what players supposedly want, but what will spice up the gameplay of a profession. Sadly I feel like greatsword would not.

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I just hope that if Anet goes with the Ritualist theme for the new especc, which I doubt and would feel boring to me, it won't be a human ritualist. Us going to Cantha also doesn't necessarily mean the Legend will be connected to the location, we've seen that with Kalla.Every Legend so far has been from a different race.

Human / Assassin - ShiroDemon / Margonite - MallyxDwarf - JalisCentaur - VentariDragon - GlintCharr / Renegade - Kalla

That's why I also doubt Kanaxai will be a legend, even though he's a different type of demon.

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@Elric.4713 said:

@Elric.4713 said:So as we all know the next expansion will finally take us back to Cantha, and with that it makes sense that Revenant's connection to the Canthan Ritualist will finally be explored.The talk of whether or not it should happen, or will it even be called Ritualist and what legend would accompany it has been going on in other threads, so I thought that it would be better if we focus that discussion in one thread.While the spirits were already given to Renegade, what I'd like to see explored with Master Togo as my legend of choice is the Channeling Magic aspect of the Ritualist, with scepter as our new e-spec weapon.But with that said, we know that a ranged main hand wouldn't work with our current two off-hands, so I'd like to see focus, warhorn or dagger added with the scepter or as a new weapon.

as much as i would like to play with warhorn or dagger, i could see that greatsword will come. Esp cuz 7/10 revs would prefer that.

Hopefully Arena Net doesn't design specializations based on what players supposedly want, but what will spice up the gameplay of a profession. Sadly I feel like greatsword would not.

Sadly anet tries more and more to fulfill the communitys wishes.Thats why we have this balancing now. Cuz everyone complained about power being to strong... one shots.

What now? Ppl complain about condi-tank meta ,which will probably lead to an condition nerf soon

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If they give us Scepter they need to give us another offhand as well, preferably Focus, since neither Axe or Offhand Sword would synergize well with a Scepter mainhand. Plus it would be fitting and thematic to get both Scepter + Focus for a Rit spec at the same time. The precedent is set as well, with Spellbreaker getting both main and offhand dagger simultaneously, which are effectively different weapons in terms of code and usage.

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@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:If they give us Scepter they need to give us another offhand as well, preferably Focus, since neither Axe or Offhand Sword would synergize well with a Scepter mainhand. Plus it would be fitting and thematic to get both Scepter + Focus for a Rit spec at the same time. The precedent is set as well, with Spellbreaker getting both main and offhand dagger simultaneously, which are effectively different weapons in terms of code and usage.

Yeah I do think we need to get a new off-hand as well, there are a few options beside focus that would fit the ritualistic theme but my personal favourite might actually be the warhorn, just so I can use Verdarach.

@Lily.1935 said:Revenant wont get ritualist. Its not going to happen for them. You're going to have to get over that.

I know that you can't get over that fact that thematically we share so much with the Ritualist, and we even got spirits with Renegade. And as someone who supposedly wants so see Ritualist make a comeback you sure love to undermine and downplay the facts that it belongs on Rev, and you use your own headcanon to try and justify it..

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Gotta say, I'm sceptical about Togo's prospects as a legend both from a thematic perspective and a skills perspective.

From a thematic perspective... what makes Togo so legendary. The existing legends are all tied to some major event during which they were a focal point in history - Jalis represents the end of the dwarfs and the Great Destroyer, Shiro represents the Jade Wind, Ventari represents the birth of the sylvari (it's not coincidence that all his skills revolve around the Tablet), Mallyx represents Nightfall, Kalla represents the overthrow of the shamans, and Glint represents well where do I even start?

Togo's impact is... simply put, it's not on that level of significance. The Tengu Accords started to fall apart less than a decade after his death, and never applied to the Sensali to begin with. Apart from that, his main accomplishment is... being part of fighting Shiro. Shiro's the one whose impact was enough to generate a legend within the Mists - Togo simply played a part in one of the final chapters.

From a skills perspective - what legend skills would Togo bring? We can assume his direct attack spells would go onto the weapon(s) he'd be associated with, but after that? There's a heal skill... which would be similar to Soothing Stone if translated into GW2. There's an energy management skill, which would probably be more likely to go into F2 than 7-10. Dragon Empire Rage could possibly be an elite, but after that, you're basically looking at spirits, and Kalla already does that. So I'm not convinced that Togo actually brings much to the table which which to establish his own playstyle. Certainly, I'm really not convinced we need a second bite at the spirits cherry right after Kalla.

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:If they give us Scepter they need to give us another offhand as well, preferably Focus, since neither Axe or Offhand Sword would synergize well with a Scepter mainhand. Plus it would be fitting and thematic to get both Scepter + Focus for a Rit spec at the same time. The precedent is set as well, with Spellbreaker getting both main and offhand dagger simultaneously, which are effectively different weapons in terms of code and usage.

I'm not entirely convinced. Axe and sword both feel similar to guardian offhands, in that they can be used at range but you still get the most out of them if you get up close and personal. Axe in particular has fairly long-range skills, but one of them is a gap-closer. I could see it working, especially if scepter is balanced as more of a 'skirmishing' weapon that rewards getting close occasionally rather than being a completely stand-off weapon like hammer.

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@Elric.4713 said:

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:If they give us Scepter they need to give us another offhand as well, preferably Focus, since neither Axe or Offhand Sword would synergize well with a Scepter mainhand. Plus it would be fitting and thematic to get both Scepter + Focus for a Rit spec at the same time. The precedent is set as well, with Spellbreaker getting both main and offhand dagger simultaneously, which are effectively different weapons in terms of code and usage.

Yeah I do think we need to get a new off-hand as well, there are a few options beside focus that would fit the ritualistic theme but my personal favourite might actually be the warhorn, just so I can use Verdarach.

@Lily.1935 said:Revenant wont get ritualist. Its not going to happen for them. You're going to have to get over that.

I know that you can't get over that fact that thematically we share so much with the Ritualist, and we even got spirits with Renegade. And as someone who supposedly wants so see Ritualist make a comeback you sure love to undermine and downplay the facts that it belongs on Rev, and you use your own headcanon to try and justify it..

Ritualist summons the dead. The revenant has no such limitations. This might be hard for you to hear this, but the only limitation the Revenant has is that the person they're channeling has to currently be in the mists. It doesn't mean they have to be dead. We saw this with Palawa Joko in the Living story and its likely that the revenant could channel someone like Arkk who never technically died but is lost in the mists. You want to hyper narrow the Revenant's scope to the Death magic that the Ritualist and Necromancer both share. When there is no such limitations. Revenant magic is chaotic and unstable. The stabilizing element is their Legend which grants them access to their abilities. They are more akin to a Blue mage. I will not ignore some of the similarities they have with both necromancer and Ritualist, they do have some. But I also can't ignore the Identity of the ritualist which is that of a Shaman dancer, using bones and ashes to commune with the dead.

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@Elric.4713 said:

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:If they give us Scepter they need to give us another offhand as well, preferably Focus, since neither Axe or Offhand Sword would synergize well with a Scepter mainhand. Plus it would be fitting and thematic to get both Scepter + Focus for a Rit spec at the same time. The precedent is set as well, with Spellbreaker getting both main and offhand dagger simultaneously, which are effectively different weapons in terms of code and usage.

Yeah I do think we need to get a new off-hand as well, there are a few options beside focus that would fit the ritualistic theme but my personal favourite might actually be the warhorn, just so I can use Verdarach.

@Lily.1935 said:Revenant wont get ritualist. Its not going to happen for them. You're going to have to get over that.

I know that you can't get over that fact that thematically we share so much with the Ritualist, and we even got spirits with Renegade. And as someone who supposedly wants so see Ritualist make a comeback you sure love to undermine and downplay the facts that it belongs on Rev, and you use your own head-canon to try and justify it..

Actually not really. And I say this as someone who played a ritualist, they were WAY closer to the necromancer but they used less evil manners or dark magic to get where they wanted to go. They were like the respectful priest of their ancestors and despite some of those being legendary I highly doubt and I don't want the rev to get this, Id love for the necromancer to get it with the whole feel. (Spirits, Ashes, some channeling and some cool shroud mechanics to spice them up with not only a bit of a new color theme but a new theme in general.) Pair them with perhaps a hammer to break through the veil? Or something like Mace, shield and make them like a champion of their ancestors and it would be perfect.

I want a norn legend, we don't have one. The argument could be made that the shaman who was a ritualist like character who helped jora could become a legend for us; Id much prefer a darker character as we have A LOT of heroes in our roster of legends. We need something evil which is why I always prop up svanir due to how much of a monster he was, plus id love to literally become the norn-bear and be this monster on the battlefield constantly fighting with their madness.

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@"Lily.1935" said:Ritualist summons the dead. The revenant has no such limitations. This might be hard for you to hear this, but the only limitation the Revenant has is that the person they're channeling has to currently be in the mists. It doesn't mean they have to be dead. We saw this with Palawa Joko in the Living story and its likely that the revenant could channel someone like Arkk who never technically died but is lost in the mists. You want to hyper narrow the Revenant's scope to the Death magic that the Ritualist and Necromancer both share. When there is no such limitations. Revenant magic is chaotic and unstable. The stabilizing element is their Legend which grants them access to their abilities. They are more akin to a Blue mage. I will not ignore some of the similarities they have with both necromancer and Ritualist, they do have some. But I also can't ignore the Identity of the ritualist which is that of a Shaman dancer, using bones and ashes to commune with the dead.

I think it's a bit deeper than that. Revenants have to channel someone which had a significant enough impact to leave a strong echo in the Mists. Joko, for instance, is an individual who has shaped Elonian history for centuries, and not just in the obvious way - the rise to power of the Ossa family and the founding of the Order of Whispers were both in response to him. He's definitely a revenant legend candidate, albeit probably one the PC will never use thanks to that "ugh, never again" response. There are actually pretty strong signs that, contrary to what the PC thought, Joko had already left the mists at that point, but there was still enough there to use.

Characters whose main claim to fame is opposing a particular villain, however, do not seem to qualify - in these cases, it's the villain that created a big enough impact for the legend to form around. For instance, Shiro represents the events of Factions and the Jade Wind - Vizu, Archemorous, and the others are part of Shiro's legend. The exception seems to be when the primary actor is of the power level of a god or Elder Dragon, or is a dependent champion of an Elder Dragon, such as the Great Destroyer. Now, I don't think ArenaNet has explicitly stated that these are the requirements, but it does seem to fit what we've seen thus far - a legend must have had a significant impact on at least one culture, and they have to do so at least partially on their own initiative rather than simply trying to stop someone else.

Ironically, if we were to have another legend focused around summoning spirits, I could see it being King Adelbern.

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@draxynnic.3719 said:

@"Lily.1935" said:Ritualist summons the dead. The revenant has no such limitations. This might be hard for you to hear this, but the only limitation the Revenant has is that the person they're channeling has to currently be in the mists. It doesn't mean they have to be dead. We saw this with Palawa Joko in the Living story and its likely that the revenant could channel someone like Arkk who never technically died but is lost in the mists. You want to hyper narrow the Revenant's scope to the Death magic that the Ritualist and Necromancer both share. When there is no such limitations. Revenant magic is chaotic and unstable. The stabilizing element is their Legend which grants them access to their abilities. They are more akin to a Blue mage. I will not ignore some of the similarities they have with both necromancer and Ritualist, they do have some. But I also can't ignore the Identity of the ritualist which is that of a Shaman dancer, using bones and ashes to commune with the dead.

I think it's a bit deeper than that. Revenants have to channel someone which had a significant enough impact to leave a strong echo in the Mists. Joko, for instance, is an individual who has shaped Elonian history for centuries, and not just in the obvious way - the rise to power of the Ossa family and the founding of the Order of Whispers were both in response to him. He's definitely a revenant legend candidate, albeit probably one the PC will never use thanks to that "ugh, never again" response. There are actually pretty strong signs that, contrary to what the PC thought, Joko had already left the mists at that point, but there was still enough there to use.

Characters whose main claim to fame is opposing a particular villain, however, do not seem to qualify - in these cases, it's the villain that created a big enough impact for the legend to form around. For instance, Shiro represents the events of Factions and the Jade Wind - Vizu, Archemorous, and the others are part of Shiro's legend. The exception seems to be when the primary actor is of the power level of a god or Elder Dragon, or is a dependent champion of an Elder Dragon, such as the Great Destroyer. Now, I don't think ArenaNet has explicitly stated that these are the requirements, but it does seem to fit what we've seen thus far - a legend must have had a significant impact on at least one culture, and they have to do so at least partially on their own initiative rather than simply trying to stop someone else.

Ironically, if we were to have another legend focused around summoning spirits, I could see it being King Adelbern.

There is a problem with this hypothesis of yours. And that's Mallyx. Mallyx is not a significant demon in the lore of Tyria and had little individual impact on the story. Varesh Ossa on the other hand was quite prominent. There is no suggestion that the Revenant can channels legends that are currently in Tyria, although considering that Time is irrelevant to the mists, they could channel a version of King Adelbern. Although if you wanted to play like the king he'd function more like a Minion Master as opposed to a Spirit spammer since he's acting as a commander of forces not a conjurer of the mists.

The Legends must be significant enough in some way. Either powerful or legendary. Much of what the Revenant does would technically allow them to act as any profession in the game, They could channel a necromancer or warrior just fine and gain there abilities. Arkk is a legend that could be channeled. If personal legend is a factor, he's known among Mist being. Otherwise his mother who spearheaded the fractals project in the first place would be a legend enough to be called on.

Usoku Is such a legend that would satisfy your criteria though. His actions are influenced by Shiro, but Shiro's actions were influenced by a minor demon in the story.

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@Lily.1935 said:

@Lily.1935 said:Ritualist summons the dead. The revenant has no such limitations. This might be hard for you to hear this, but the only limitation the Revenant has is that the person they're channeling has to currently be in the mists. It doesn't mean they have to be dead. We saw this with Palawa Joko in the Living story and its likely that the revenant could channel someone like Arkk who never technically died but is lost in the mists. You want to hyper narrow the Revenant's scope to the Death magic that the Ritualist and Necromancer both share. When there is no such limitations. Revenant magic is chaotic and unstable. The stabilizing element is their Legend which grants them access to their abilities. They are more akin to a Blue mage. I will not ignore some of the similarities they have with both necromancer and Ritualist, they do have some. But I also can't ignore the Identity of the ritualist which is that of a Shaman dancer, using bones and ashes to commune with the dead.

I think it's a bit deeper than that. Revenants have to channel someone which had a significant enough impact to leave a strong echo in the Mists. Joko, for instance, is an individual who has shaped Elonian history for centuries, and not just in the obvious way - the rise to power of the Ossa family and the founding of the Order of Whispers were both in response to him. He's definitely a revenant legend candidate, albeit probably one the PC will never use thanks to that "ugh, never again" response. There are actually pretty strong signs that, contrary to what the PC thought, Joko had already left the mists at that point, but there was still enough there to use.

Characters whose main claim to fame is opposing a particular villain, however, do not seem to qualify - in these cases, it's the villain that created a big enough impact for the legend to form around. For instance, Shiro represents the events of Factions and the Jade Wind - Vizu, Archemorous, and the others are part of Shiro's legend. The exception seems to be when the primary actor is of the power level of a god or Elder Dragon, or is a dependent champion of an Elder Dragon, such as the Great Destroyer. Now, I don't think ArenaNet has explicitly stated that these are the requirements, but it does seem to fit what we've seen thus far - a legend must have had a significant impact on at least one culture, and they have to do so at least partially on their own initiative rather than simply trying to stop someone else.

Ironically, if we were to have another legend focused around summoning spirits, I could see it being King Adelbern.

There is a problem with this hypothesis of yours. And that's Mallyx. Mallyx is not a significant demon in the lore of Tyria and had little individual impact on the story. Varesh Ossa on the other hand was quite prominent. There is no suggestion that the Revenant can channels legends that are currently in Tyria, although considering that Time is irrelevant to the mists, they could channel a version of King Adelbern. Although if you wanted to play like the king he'd function more like a Minion Master as opposed to a Spirit spammer since he's acting as a commander of forces not a conjurer of the mists.

The Legends must be significant enough in some way. Either powerful or legendary. Much of what the Revenant does would technically allow them to act as any profession in the game, They could channel a necromancer or warrior just fine and gain there abilities. Arkk is a legend that could be channeled. If personal legend is a factor, he's known among Mist being. Otherwise his mother who spearheaded the fractals project in the first place would be a legend enough to be called on.

Usoku Is such a legend that would satisfy your criteria though. His actions are influenced by Shiro, but Shiro's actions were influenced by a minor demon in the story.

Never said the individual had to have had a big impact on Tyria. Mallyx's impact within the Mists themselves were quite significant, and it's possible that he also had a significant impact on the original war of the gods that allowed him to reach such a high position in the first place. Consider that he's positioned on at least the same level as Shiro and Khilbron, and seems to be if anything higher on the totem pole than the likes of Lord Jadoth and the Fury - it's entirely likely that he's had a significant history even before Abaddon was imprisoned that we don't know.

At the very least, though, Mallyx represents Nightfall, the Margonites, and the Realm of Torment. Yes, he was technically subservient to Abaddon, but I'd already noted that one situation in which a legend could be a subordinate is if the superior is something too high in scale to be a legend, such as a god.

When it comes to Adelbern - one thing I'd note here is that the legends do somewhat draw on what the figure's impact was rather than how that figure actually fought. Jalis, for instance, fights nothing like the historical Jalis, instead seeming to be more of an embodiment of the Great Dwarf with Jalis as its face. Shiro doesn't release a small-scale Jade Wind any time he has a big enough energy reserve and feels like it, he devastates a continent with his death scream. Ventari's powers all resolve around a tablet that he only inscribed when he was close to death. Adelbern as a legend, therefore, would likely revolve around the Foefire, and what is the best-known consequences of the Foefire? Spirits all over the place!

Usoku certainly would fulfill the criteria, unless there's some reason he wouldn't that we don't know about (such as someone else being the proverbial power behind the throne). Since I don't think we know much about him, though, he's pretty much a blank slate as to what he'd have.

(Incidentally, the Joko case is an example of channeling someone who is almost certainly not in the Mists - as we're breaking out of the Great Hall prison, Joko was in the process of kidnapping Taimi.)

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@draxynnic.3719 said:

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:If they give us Scepter they need to give us another offhand as well, preferably Focus, since neither Axe or Offhand Sword would synergize well with a Scepter mainhand. Plus it would be fitting and thematic to get both Scepter + Focus for a Rit spec at the same time. The precedent is set as well, with Spellbreaker getting both main and offhand dagger simultaneously, which are effectively different weapons in terms of code and usage.

I'm not entirely convinced. Axe and sword both feel similar to guardian offhands, in that they
can
be used at range but you still get the most out of them if you get up close and personal. Axe in particular has fairly long-range skills, but one of them is a gap-closer. I could see it working, especially if scepter is balanced as more of a 'skirmishing' weapon that rewards getting close occasionally rather than being a completely stand-off weapon like hammer.

The difference between Guardian offhands and Axe/offSword on Rev is that there are inherent defenses baked into all 3 of guard's offhand choices. Currently, Rev has 0 defensive options for offhands outside of Shield in Herald (and shield wouldn't mix with a hypothetical scepter for obvious reasons). You're right, Axe wouldn't be an awful choice to pair with a longer range scepter, but it's entirely offensive so it would only fill that niche. The gap closers on both could be useful, but would depend on what skills the mainhand scepter received, what utility skills the new legend provides, and what profession skills are added. One of the issues with Shortbow (and Mace/Axe for a long time) is the complete lack of defensive skills. I wouldn't want the same fate to befall any future mainhand weapon for Rev. I should rephrase my initial statement to say that adding a Focus (or any offhand for that matter) with long range abilities/some defensive utility alongside a mainhand scepter would provide additional (probably better) synergy and add a lot more build options for a class that's already hyper limited. It would allow a hypothetical scepter rev to have the choice of two hyper offensive offhands (axe/sword) or a 3rd offhand with some damage/utility/defense (focus).

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I think they might explore the relationship between Revenant and Ritualist, which would be great.But ACTUAL Ritualist spec? I think the chances are very low.

Revenant pretty much is the evolution of Ritualist, where Ritualist channels spirits and summons, Revenant meditates and channels the Legendary figures themselves.

I also fear if Anet starts adding in Legendary GW profession heroes as Legends, people are gonna be expecting more of that sort of Especs down the line."Oh we want Dervish, let's get a Dervish hero to channel""We want a Sunspear, let's get a Sunspear hero to channel""We want to be like a Mesmer too, let's get a Mesmer hero to channel"

I think Revenants should stick closely to Legendary beings that mundane creatures cannot hope to match in prowess.So far among the lineup, only Kalla and Jalis are more mundane than the others, but every bit legendary in their own right.

Shiro has past transcended being a mortal if yu follow his story.Glint is a DRAGON.Mallyx is a Demon.Ventari is a Centaur.

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Honestly, I'm inclined to agree.

Revenant is related to Ritualist in much the same way as Guardian is related to Monk - they're drawing from the same or a similar overall power source, but how they use it is very, very different. If anything, more so with the Revenant than with the Guardian.

And yeah, I don't think there's much point to legends which are simply a translation of an existing profession into a legend. Mallyx and Glint had entirely unique skills. So did Shiro - yes, he was technically an assassin, but by the time we fought him in GW1 he'd collected so much power that he'd essentially transcended mortal assassins. Jalis was technically a warrior, but the legend relates to him focuses on his legacy, and while Ventari's precise profession is unknown (he would have had one, centaurs have professions just like humans, and this has largely followed through into GW2 although GW2 doesn't make it explicit) his legend also focuses on his legacy.

Kalla is probably the most 'normal' of the legends, but in her case the focus is more on her as a leader than her as a ranger or warrior.

Personally, I'm definitely more eager to see a future revenant legend being something exotic that doesn't fit into the other professions rather than a revenant facsimile of a profession that already exists... or even one that existed in a previous game.

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@Yasai.3549 said:I think they might explore the relationship between Revenant and Ritualist, which would be great.But ACTUAL Ritualist spec? I think the chances are very low.

Revenant pretty much is the evolution of Ritualist, where Ritualist channels spirits and summons, Revenant meditates and channels the Legendary figures themselves.

I'd be fine with just the connection exploration, kinda like how in POF there are NPCs for every new elite specialization, ours could be a Ritualist that share's some of its knowledge with Revenants without actually teaching us to become one, as we might be the first one's they meet after their long isolation (there's also the possibility of them knowing about us through our shared connection with the Mists).And there's also a strong possibility that they will deal with Assassin and Ritualist the same way they did with Paragon and Dervish and just make them as an NPC profession.

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You know, people keep claiming that Ritualist and Revenant has a lot in common. I see a little bit with summoning of some spirits, but beyond that I have seen Nothing else. Blindfolds don't count since Necromancers use them too on occasion. And they're not even a requirement on Revenant since Rytlock got rid of his. Its always just "There's a lot there" and never any proof of that.

I have shown proof that the Revenant is not limited to Dead spirits. I've shown that their magic is Mist Magic not magic specifically involving the dead. I've Shown how Ritualist uses bones and ashes in their rituals. I've shown how Necromancer also uses bones and ashes in their rituals. I've shown that Both Ritualists and Necromancer's Call the dead from The underworld and the realm of torment. I've shown that the mechanics side of Revenant doesn't work well with Ritualist, but the necromancer's mechanics absolutely do with far less of the ritualist's Identity falling off in translation. Worse still, You NEED Togo to justify ritualist on the Revenant. And even then you would be as much of a ritualist as you are a Monk by using Centaur stance or an assassin using assassin stance.

To be perfectly honest. I don't want Ritualist as an elite spec for Either Revenant or Necromancer. I want the real thing. Not some half baked copycat. Ritualist and its legacy would be served better as its own profession and not shoehorned into the extremely narrow Revenant profession. You'll lose aspects of the ritualist no matter what, with Revenant you'd lose weapon spells, Urns, restoration magic, protection spirits, channeling magic and only really get Spirit Spammer, or at least a hollow shell of what it was. With Necromancer you could keep the restoration magic, the protection spirits, the urns and spirit spammer but still lose the Weapon spells and Channeling magic... You lose a lot less with the necromancer translation but there's still a big loss of what made the ritualist the ritualist.

Even if we ignore the mechanical nightmare that the ritualist would bring for the Revenant, there just is no room for it in the lore. The Revenant doesn't exist in Cantha. The Ritualist is one of the oldest professions in the lore, older than Even Necromancers among humans. Revenant is only a few years old. its an extremely new form of magic that doesn't use Rituals at all, doesn't preform death rites and has no way for it to be connected with the ritualist to really spread as a unified teaching. The Renegade master in PoF even was following Rytlock's teachings, she wasn't someone following an old teaching.

When you compare the history of the Ritualist with the Necromancer there is serious history between the two. Ritualists and necromancers are both Priests of grenth. They're both working within death magic. No that's not a misconception, both have in the past required dead parts to preform their magics. Such as bones, ashes and corpses. Much of the identity of the ritualist is in death. A part of their culture's lamentation for the dead. Ritualists found necromancers to be problematic a lot of times which we see in Shin Jea as they seak out the aid of ritualists to deal with a problem caused by a necromancer because ritualists understand the dead. What we can expect with this Xpac is a strong connection between the two. Possibly either necromancers required to conform to the Ritualist's practices due to pressure from the Ministry of Purity, or the necromancer becoming an underground practice.

You have to consider what the lore is with Cantha right now. They're isolationist, there is no way for Revenant to get their teachings there without some serious sloppy writing and hand waving. There's a lot of Lore with the Ministry of Purity which are currently the primary acting force on behalf of the Emperor themselves, Which with the trauma of Shiro's Plague and that the necromancer's specialize in spreading plague and dead bodies would be highly stigmatized, the high level of Xenophobia of the nation and the High ranking Priesthood of the Ritualists in Canthan Lore, there shouldn't be a question in anyone's mind that if the Ritualist is involved with the story it is intrinsically going to be tied up with the necromancer. As it always has been.

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Ashes are... an interesting thing to try to fit, to say the least. I am sceptical that ritualists actually carry around ashes of various historical figures, especially since some of the pots are then used as bombs. It's probably more likely that what's happening is that the ritualist is calling the spirit into a receptacle, and it just happens to be in that form. Maybe it even has ashes in it, but are they necessarily ashes of cremation, or is it simply a ritual reagent and any ashes would do?

I think, if you were to boil the ritualist down to its essentials, there are five things that really stand out:

Direct offensive spells involving channeling the power of the MistsSpiritsWeapons spellsUrns*Healing, in part through the above.

Translating these into GW2 terms:

Channeling could simply be covered through the ritualist's weapon(s) giving them appropriately-themed attacks.

Spirits are... well, we have multiple things that are or act like spirits. One could argue that Shadow Fiend and Flesh Wurm already count.

Weapon spells and urns, I think, would likely both fit into the category of bundle objects in GW2. Urns were used by the ritualist directly, weapon spells were applied to allies. A system similar to Elementalist conjured weapons would work, where the ritualist has one appear in their hands and another appears on the ground somewhere for an ally to pick up.

Healing... well, direct heals on a single ally have been pretty much removed. I don't think this necessarily needs to be directly included, it can be something that comes naturally out of the other elements. Core necromancer already has a few healing and protective effects, so I'm not sure that they'd need to have a separate "Restoration" line of skills.

Saying that ritualist really needs to have its own profession to really do it justice... I can definitely see where you're coming from, but at this stage I'd be almost as surprised by ArenaNet introducing a new profession (will it be introduced with three elite specialisations out of the gate? How will they explain the Commander showing up with a new profession this late in the story?) as a new race.

So, hypothetically, if I was to make a ritualist-themed necromancer elite specialisation, I'd probably take the following approach:

The one thing pretty much every ritualist build was expected to have is at least one spirit, so that would replace the shroud mechanic. F1 would summon a spirit whose attacks take up the traits normally on shroud skill 1. F2 summons a disenchantment spirit that removes boons when it hits, corrupting them if you have the appropriate trait. F4 would probably summon some sort of healing or protective spirit so it fits with Transfusion. F5 I'd also see as being a protective spirit (being the equivalent of shroud for the purpose of traits), including all damage dealt to the necromancer going to the spirit instead.

Channeling themes, as previously noted, would be used in designing the weapon attacks.

Utility skills would be, essentially, conjures. So the healing skill might be a conjure that effectively turns the user into a Restoration healer while using it. Others would likely be more aggressive in nature, although some can be more defensive (similar to Conjure Earth Shield). To really carry the flavour, each could also have a particular effect that happens if the bundle is deliberately dropped by the user.

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@"Lily.1935" said:You know, people keep claiming that Ritualist and Revenant has a lot in common. I see a little bit with summoning of some spirits, but beyond that I have seen Nothing else. Blindfolds don't count since Necromancers use them too on occasion. And they're not even a requirement on Revenant since Rytlock got rid of his. Its always just "There's a lot there" and never any proof of that.

I have shown proof that the Revenant is not limited to Dead spirits. I've shown that their magic is Mist Magic not magic specifically involving the dead. I've Shown how Ritualist uses bones and ashes in their rituals. I've shown how Necromancer also uses bones and ashes in their rituals. I've shown that Both Ritualists and Necromancer's Call the dead from The underworld and the realm of torment. I've shown that the mechanics side of Revenant doesn't work well with Ritualist, but the necromancer's mechanics absolutely do with far less of the ritualist's Identity falling off in translation. Worse still, You NEED Togo to justify ritualist on the Revenant. And even then you would be as much of a ritualist as you are a Monk by using Centaur stance or an assassin using assassin stance.

To be perfectly honest. I don't want Ritualist as an elite spec for Either Revenant or Necromancer. I want the real thing. Not some half baked copycat. Ritualist and its legacy would be served better as its own profession and not shoehorned into the extremely narrow Revenant profession. You'll lose aspects of the ritualist no matter what, with Revenant you'd lose weapon spells, Urns, restoration magic, protection spirits, channeling magic and only really get Spirit Spammer, or at least a hollow shell of what it was. With Necromancer you could keep the restoration magic, the protection spirits, the urns and spirit spammer but still lose the Weapon spells and Channeling magic... You lose a lot less with the necromancer translation but there's still a big loss of what made the ritualist the ritualist.

Even if we ignore the mechanical nightmare that the ritualist would bring for the Revenant, there just is no room for it in the lore. The Revenant doesn't exist in Cantha. The Ritualist is one of the oldest professions in the lore, older than Even Necromancers among humans. Revenant is only a few years old. its an extremely new form of magic that doesn't use Rituals at all, doesn't preform death rites and has no way for it to be connected with the ritualist to really spread as a unified teaching. The Renegade master in PoF even was following Rytlock's teachings, she wasn't someone following an old teaching.

When you compare the history of the Ritualist with the Necromancer there is serious history between the two. Ritualists and necromancers are both Priests of grenth. They're both working within death magic. No that's not a misconception, both have in the past required dead parts to preform their magics. Such as bones, ashes and corpses. Much of the identity of the ritualist is in death. A part of their culture's lamentation for the dead. Ritualists found necromancers to be problematic a lot of times which we see in Shin Jea as they seak out the aid of ritualists to deal with a problem caused by a necromancer because ritualists understand the dead. What we can expect with this Xpac is a strong connection between the two. Possibly either necromancers required to conform to the Ritualist's practices due to pressure from the Ministry of Purity, or the necromancer becoming an underground practice.

You have to consider what the lore is with Cantha right now. They're isolationist, there is no way for Revenant to get their teachings there without some serious sloppy writing and hand waving. There's a lot of Lore with the Ministry of Purity which are currently the primary acting force on behalf of the Emperor themselves, Which with the trauma of Shiro's Plague and that the necromancer's specialize in spreading plague and dead bodies would be highly stigmatized, the high level of Xenophobia of the nation and the High ranking Priesthood of the Ritualists in Canthan Lore, there shouldn't be a question in anyone's mind that if the Ritualist is involved with the story it is intrinsically going to be tied up with the necromancer. As it always has been.

Id love to see ritualist return as its own class... have it be something different and new. Just as Id like for assassin to come as its own and dervish and paragon to come as their own as well. They ALL were different to anything we have now and while they share similarities they do not share exact moments or connections with said classes, the only one who would is the monk. The lore as far as I know stated that monks are literally the precursor to guardians, and that the years of conflict forced the monks to become more martial and thus the guardian was born.

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@Thornwolf.9721 said:

@"Lily.1935" said:You know, people keep claiming that Ritualist and Revenant has a lot in common. I see a little bit with summoning of some spirits, but beyond that I have seen Nothing else. Blindfolds don't count since Necromancers use them too on occasion. And they're not even a requirement on Revenant since Rytlock got rid of his. Its always just "There's a lot there" and never any proof of that.

I have shown proof that the Revenant is not limited to Dead spirits. I've shown that their magic is Mist Magic not magic specifically involving the dead. I've Shown how Ritualist uses bones and ashes in their rituals. I've shown how Necromancer also uses bones and ashes in their rituals. I've shown that Both Ritualists and Necromancer's Call the dead from The underworld and the realm of torment. I've shown that the mechanics side of Revenant doesn't work well with Ritualist, but the necromancer's mechanics absolutely do with far less of the ritualist's Identity falling off in translation. Worse still, You NEED Togo to justify ritualist on the Revenant. And even then you would be as much of a ritualist as you are a Monk by using Centaur stance or an assassin using assassin stance.

To be perfectly honest. I don't want Ritualist as an elite spec for Either Revenant or Necromancer. I want the real thing. Not some half baked copycat. Ritualist and its legacy would be served better as its own profession and not shoehorned into the extremely narrow Revenant profession. You'll lose aspects of the ritualist no matter what, with Revenant you'd lose weapon spells, Urns, restoration magic, protection spirits, channeling magic and only really get Spirit Spammer, or at least a hollow shell of what it was. With Necromancer you could keep the restoration magic, the protection spirits, the urns and spirit spammer but still lose the Weapon spells and Channeling magic... You lose a lot less with the necromancer translation but there's still a big loss of what made the ritualist the ritualist.

Even if we ignore the mechanical nightmare that the ritualist would bring for the Revenant, there just is no room for it in the lore. The Revenant doesn't exist in Cantha. The Ritualist is one of the oldest professions in the lore, older than Even Necromancers among humans. Revenant is only a few years old. its an extremely new form of magic that doesn't use Rituals at all, doesn't preform death rites and has no way for it to be connected with the ritualist to really spread as a unified teaching. The Renegade master in PoF even was following Rytlock's teachings, she wasn't someone following an old teaching.

When you compare the history of the Ritualist with the Necromancer there is serious history between the two. Ritualists and necromancers are both Priests of grenth. They're both working within death magic. No that's not a misconception, both have in the past required dead parts to preform their magics. Such as bones, ashes and corpses. Much of the identity of the ritualist is in death. A part of their culture's lamentation for the dead. Ritualists found necromancers to be problematic a lot of times which we see in Shin Jea as they seak out the aid of ritualists to deal with a problem caused by a necromancer because ritualists understand the dead. What we can expect with this Xpac is a strong connection between the two. Possibly either necromancers required to conform to the Ritualist's practices due to pressure from the Ministry of Purity, or the necromancer becoming an underground practice.

You have to consider what the lore is with Cantha right now. They're isolationist, there is no way for Revenant to get their teachings there without some serious sloppy writing and hand waving. There's a lot of Lore with the Ministry of Purity which are currently the primary acting force on behalf of the Emperor themselves, Which with the trauma of Shiro's Plague and that the necromancer's specialize in spreading plague and dead bodies would be highly stigmatized, the high level of Xenophobia of the nation and the High ranking Priesthood of the Ritualists in Canthan Lore, there shouldn't be a question in anyone's mind that if the Ritualist is involved with the story it is intrinsically going to be tied up with the necromancer. As it always has been.

Id love to see ritualist return as its own class... have it be something different and new. Just as Id like for assassin to come as its own and dervish and paragon to come as their own as well. They ALL were different to anything we have now and while they share similarities they do not share exact moments or connections with said classes, the only one who would is the monk. The lore as far as I know stated that monks are literally the precursor to guardians, and that the years of conflict forced the monks to become more martial and thus the guardian was born.

Guardian is a bit of a mutt - we know there's a bit of Ritualist in there, and there was Paragon in there according to a prerelease interview which is no longer available online. Assassin is, honestly, close enough to thief that it would be doable as a thief elite specialisation - there are some things assassin had that thief is missing, but the majority of it is in there, and thief is about as close to assassin as mesmer, elementalist, necromancer, ranger and warrior are to their predecessors.

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