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Thief in larger scale


myboybuzzy.5809

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I recently came back to wvw. I left just after pof release because I mainly roamed and didnt enjoy the sic em soulbeast and perma stealth deadeye fights or playstyles. So I got really into pvp for a bit.

Upon returning it seems roaming is so dead it can take hours to get some good fights. The fights when they do happen have been sick, but really it takes forever to find them. However there is a lot of activity on the map in the form of larger groups. So I was wondering with the changes in the meta if a build like this could be viable in larger scale? http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PawAUhrlVwkYXsNmJOuW/vdA-z1IY8om/MSRBkuEwpzi7PbA-wThe concept is essentially with the changes to choking gas, you get aoe soft cc, poison, potential for aoe immob, and might share, as well as good down cleave.Would appreciate any input.

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@"myboybuzzy.5809" said:I recently came back to wvw. I left just after pof release because I mainly roamed and didnt enjoy the sic em soulbeast and perma stealth deadeye fights or playstyles. So I got really into pvp for a bit.

Upon returning it seems roaming is so dead it can take hours to get some good fights. The fights when they do happen have been sick, but really it takes forever to find them. However there is a lot of activity on the map in the form of larger groups. So I was wondering with the changes in the meta if a build like this could be viable in larger scale? http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PawAUhrlVwkYXsNmJOuW/vdA-z1IY8om/MSRBkuEwpzi7PbA-wThe concept is essentially with the changes to choking gas, you get aoe soft cc, poison, potential for aoe immob, and might share, as well as good down cleave.Would appreciate any input.

Spamming shortbow 4 in blobs is less effective since the patch changed the skill to 6 initiative from 4 if that's what you were asking. If you are in a blobby tier getting a projectile weapon to actually hit is unlikely due to the amount of reflects and projectile destruction. If anything your immob is going to get reflected to allies. However you can use shortbow 5 into a reflect to intentionally teleport the one who used the reflect. This won't happen if the project is destroyed of course. Pre-patch putting sigil of absorption on the shortbow for boon strip was better than having a boon duration sigil. That decision considered the boons a thief's provide are plentiful in a blob, and long on their own anyway so trying to boon share was a meh idea. Lastly, I usually had sigil of torment for a cover condition over the +20% poison duration since there is going to be a lot of cleanses in general (not necessarily true on downs). That being said I have abandoned goofing on thief shortbow in blobs since the patch due to the high initiative cost and it doesn't periodically daze with poison stacks...only the initial impact.

D:

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I dont think if you noticed, but none of your skills is doing any significant damage and mostly relies on projectiles which is terrible. As retro said, staff DD was the only semi-viable build for large scale wvw so it's the only way to get into groups (but even then, more organized squads wont like to have a thief there).

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@Rod.6581 said:

@XenesisII.1540 said:Thieves need a buff to their shadow portal to help them in groups, raise the cap for allies from 5 to 20 to match the other portal, while keeping it one way travel to balance it.

Why not also add 8 sec of stealth to allies when ported?

So you want to kick scrappers out of groups? The 2s (or 3 with meld with shadows) is to cover the port in, if you need an additional 8s after you port to get to your ambush target you probably need to replace your thief for a more competent one. Get scrappers for additional stealth.

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@XenesisII.1540 said:

@Rod.6581 said:

@XenesisII.1540 said:Thieves need a buff to their shadow portal to help them in groups, raise the cap for allies from 5 to 20 to match the other portal, while keeping it one way travel to balance it.

Why not also add 8 sec of stealth to allies when ported?

So you want to kick scrappers out of groups? The 2s (or 3 with meld with shadows) is to cover the port in, if you need an additional 8s after you port to get to your ambush target you probably need to replace your thief for a more competent one. Get scrappers for additional stealth.

How did you go from "thieves shouldn't have portals" to "buff it to port 20 people"?

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@Sobx.1758 said:

@Rod.6581 said:

@XenesisII.1540 said:Thieves need a buff to their shadow portal to help them in groups, raise the cap for allies from 5 to 20 to match the other portal, while keeping it one way travel to balance it.

Why not also add 8 sec of stealth to allies when ported?

So you want to kick scrappers out of groups? The 2s (or 3 with meld with shadows) is to cover the port in, if you need an additional 8s after you port to get to your ambush target you probably need to replace your thief for a more competent one. Get scrappers for additional stealth.

How did you go from "thieves shouldn't have portals" to "buff it to port 20 people"?

The guy can't even understand sarcasm :D

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@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:Vault thief was the only known viable build for large scale, which isn’t exactly an easy build to play. As of right now I don’t know it’s viability post patch, but I’m sure that with overall power nerfs it probably bit the dust too.

It's still viable and it still works pretty much as you describe. Like everything else it has obviously been trimmed down to size but like many other burst-specialist builds it can still do enough burst damage to maintain such a role if you build for it properly and have the chops to play it.

What used to be 20k vaults are now 10k vaults. Either people see potential in that or they don't.

The key is realising that it probably won't fit into what other people commonly do in pickups, so people who do not understand the potential in your class may not appreciate you despite your best efforts. Find people who do understand, appreciate and can utilize. Good players see potentials and make things work, average players tend to do what they are told and below average players will complain about what they are being told. It's natural, no harm or foul.

The game is still built in a way where 5 people can decide the outcome of a fight but do that as apart of a larger and more complex setting. That is what makes WvW fun and still lets it be fun after all these years.

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@subversiontwo.7501 said:The key is realising that it probably won't fit into what other people commonly do in pickups, so people who do not understand the potential in your class may not appreciate you despite your best efforts. Find people who do understand, appreciate and can utilize. Good players see potentials and make things work, average players tend to do what they are told and below average players will complain about what they are being told. It's natural, no harm or foul.

I usto main thief for 4 years...it was my first class and I was pretty much the best PP thief you could have ever fought (next to Clown and Oinkers)

That was 2 years ago.

That should be enough of a tell on what I think about thief viability.

I’m sure there are people that still play staff theif to some degree in large scale. but I haven’t seen one in years.

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@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

@subversiontwo.7501 said:The key is realising that it probably won't fit into what other people commonly do in pickups, so people who do not understand the potential in your class may not appreciate you despite your best efforts. Find people who do understand, appreciate and can utilize. Good players see potentials and make things work, average players tend to do what they are told and below average players will complain about what they are being told. It's natural, no harm or foul.

I usto main thief for 4 years...it was my first class and I was pretty much the best PP thief you could have ever fought (next to Clown and Oinkers)

That was 2 years ago.

That should be enough of a tell on what I think about thief viability.

I’m sure there are people that still play staff theif to some degree in large scale. but I haven’t seen one in years.I have no idea what your experience is as a player or who you are so there was no implication intended :).

I will give you a suggestion regarding that last sentence though. Look at people in well-renowned guilds (even if tags may be dropped) and see what they do when they are bored and havoc around pickups. You are likely to see plenty of off-meta stuff being used rather effectively. However, it obviously depends on content and server and stuff. If there is no content to havoc around you're not likely to see stuff that shines as havoc.

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@subversiontwo.7501 said:

@subversiontwo.7501 said:The key is realising that it probably won't fit into what other people commonly do in pickups, so people who do not understand the potential in your class may not appreciate you despite your best efforts. Find people who do understand, appreciate and can utilize. Good players see potentials and make things work, average players tend to do what they are told and below average players will complain about what they are being told. It's natural, no harm or foul.

I usto main thief for 4 years...it was my first class and I was pretty much the best PP thief you could have ever fought (next to Clown and Oinkers)

That was 2 years ago.

That should be enough of a tell on what I think about thief viability.

I’m sure there are people that still play staff theif to some degree in large scale. but I haven’t seen one in years.I have no idea what your experience is as a player or who you are so there was no implication intended :).

I will give you a suggestion regarding that last sentence though. Look at people in well-renowned guilds (even if tags may be dropped) and see what they do when they are bored and havoc around pickups. You are likely to see plenty of off-meta stuff being used rather effectively. However, it obviously depends on content and server and stuff. If there is no content to havoc around you're not likely to see stuff that shines as havoc.

Give me an example of a renowned guild then. And we aren’t talking about havoc. We are talking about large scale.

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I've always wanted a thief build that does well in large scale (large scale being one of my favourites) but I've regrettably never been good at thief, so even if I did find one it'd most likely be beyond my abilities to utilise.

My assassin/paragon from GW1 is crying out for a place to be reincarnated though, and personally I'd want WvW to be that place.

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Sorry to say roaming isn't getting better until they remove mounts and delete most of the PoF-spec nonsense and power creep. Most roamers quit with mounts because you can't do anything before the blob responds by quickly crossing the map and wipes you.

It also feels really bad in general to be playing D/x core thief right now because they cut the coefficients so much to make people depend more on MBS. Particularly bad for D/D core.

They nerfed shortbow's damage application a lot by cuts to CG, so that's out as well.

I dunno, outside of gank groups doing nonsense like 3v1'ing respawning players I don't think it's worth playing the class. Damage is too low and condi spiking too high to justify trying to snipe commanders, and the lack of utility which got cut in the patch means you're contesting against way more valuable classes.

Vault spam kinda works, but it's a build that doesn't feel fun to play (woo spam 5) and doesn't have a lot of impact unless your group is already winning.

I'd probably say it's the worst blob state for thief in the history of the game. It really brings very little to an engagement with more than five or so people per side.

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@DeceiverX.8361 said:Sorry to say roaming isn't getting better until they remove mounts and delete most of the PoF-spec nonsense and power creep. Most roamers quit with mounts because you can't do anything before the blob responds by quickly crossing the map and wipes you.

It also feels really bad in general to be playing D/x core thief right now because they cut the coefficients so much to make people depend more on MBS. Particularly bad for D/D core.

They nerfed shortbow's damage application a lot by cuts to CG, so that's out as well.

I dunno, outside of gank groups doing nonsense like 3v1'ing respawning players I don't think it's worth playing the class. Damage is too low and condi spiking too high to justify trying to snipe commanders, and the lack of utility which got cut in the patch means you're contesting against way more valuable classes.

Vault spam kinda works, but it's a build that doesn't feel fun to play (woo spam 5) and doesn't have a lot of impact unless your group is already winning.

I'd probably say it's the worst blob state for thief in the history of the game. It really brings very little to an engagement with more than five or so people per side.

On the contrary, imo roaming got better with mounts.

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@Dralor.3701 said:

@ArchonWing.9480 said:With the new condi obsession, maybe venom share will be a thing again? Or is that just too 2014?

It’s probably fine again but people might be better off just playing a necro and spitting out non-stop condis and boon corrupt.

Its worse now because of some major factors the balance patch has dropped zerker stats to 2k backstabs and marauder down to maybe 500 if you are lucky with dagger for both. Now the condi transfering powers have increased a lot now so a zerg can go without needing to worry about condi damage if they have enough necros and revs to scoop it all up and return it back to you. So for those examples of how damage can be utilized by thief there isn't any point in playing the class its completely countered now. However thief still does have the squishy factor from its high reward/high risk design but now it has no damage output against players. When I say this though you will still see players posting outnumbered videos but when you watch them you'll notice the kinds of players they are killing will be ones who have no idea what they are doing yet. I know warriors are feeling a similar state of uselessness those cc's no longer dealing damage is the same thing as a thief loosing their backstab and stealth mechanics that have that synergy. So for thief and warrior its like anet said we got a plan to solve all our problems so they sold the cars for gas money. Watching a fight between anything that involves thief and warrior right now seems like a fight in a nursing home. I hear the pistol whip skill is going to be changed to wet newspaper to properly describe the ability.

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@Klypto.1703 said:

@ArchonWing.9480 said:With the new condi obsession, maybe venom share will be a thing again? Or is that just too 2014?

It’s probably fine again but people might be better off just playing a necro and spitting out non-stop condis and boon corrupt.

Its worse now because of some major factors the balance patch has dropped zerker stats to 2k backstabs and marauder down to maybe 500 if you are lucky with dagger for both. Now the condi transfering powers have increased a lot now so a zerg can go without needing to worry about condi damage if they have enough necros and revs to scoop it all up and return it back to you. So for those examples of how damage can be utilized by thief there isn't any point in playing the class its completely countered now. However thief still does have the squishy factor from its high reward/high risk design but now it has no damage output against players. When I say this though you will still see players posting outnumbered videos but when you watch them you'll notice the kinds of players they are killing will be ones who have no idea what they are doing yet. I know warriors are feeling a similar state of uselessness those cc's no longer dealing damage is the same thing as a thief loosing their backstab and stealth mechanics that have that synergy. So for thief and warrior its like anet said we got a plan to solve all our problems so they sold the cars for gas money. Watching a fight between anything that involves thief and warrior right now seems like a fight in a nursing home. I hear the pistol whip skill is going to be changed to wet newspaper to properly describe the ability.

This is wildly exaggerated and you know that.You'll hit 2k in zerker playing against a tank with weakness and running something like SA/Acro/DrD traits.

Problem is tanks are meta via condi stats (Dire/TB) and a 5k hit is just too low to be impactful.

As far as why they aren't good in blobs... there are just better condi bombs. By a lot. Especially guardians.

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@DeceiverX.8361 said:

@ArchonWing.9480 said:With the new condi obsession, maybe venom share will be a thing again? Or is that just too 2014?

It’s probably fine again but people might be better off just playing a necro and spitting out non-stop condis and boon corrupt.

Its worse now because of some major factors the balance patch has dropped zerker stats to 2k backstabs and marauder down to maybe 500 if you are lucky with dagger for both. Now the condi transfering powers have increased a lot now so a zerg can go without needing to worry about condi damage if they have enough necros and revs to scoop it all up and return it back to you. So for those examples of how damage can be utilized by thief there isn't any point in playing the class its completely countered now. However thief still does have the squishy factor from its high reward/high risk design but now it has no damage output against players. When I say this though you will still see players posting outnumbered videos but when you watch them you'll notice the kinds of players they are killing will be ones who have no idea what they are doing yet. I know warriors are feeling a similar state of uselessness those cc's no longer dealing damage is the same thing as a thief loosing their backstab and stealth mechanics that have that synergy. So for thief and warrior its like anet said we got a plan to solve all our problems so they sold the cars for gas money. Watching a fight between anything that involves thief and warrior right now seems like a fight in a nursing home. I hear the pistol whip skill is going to be changed to wet newspaper to properly describe the ability.

This is wildly exaggerated and you know that.You'll hit 2k in zerker playing against a tank with weakness and running something like SA/Acro/DrD traits.

Problem is tanks are meta via condi stats (Dire/TB) and a 5k hit is just too low to be impactful.

As far as why they aren't good in blobs... there are just better condi bombs. By a lot. Especially guardians.

No exaggeration it goes even lower the more knowledgeable players you fight one of the things that was not touched at all was damage mitigation so you can in fact eliminate power damage from damaging you altogether. Condition damage too but it requires more moving parts for it to work right than it does for power. So it just shows patch after patch how the people attempting to balance this game they don't play it nor do they understand how mechanics interact with each other. I am also not saying I can't kill other players even like this far nerfed but I have to put a tremendous amount more effort to down a player in the past and that is before the scenarios or being outnumbered and having players around you that are glorified rally bots that can talk.

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