Why the incoming nerfs??

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:From a PVE standpoint, I want nerfs for Renegade, Scourge, Weaver, Firebrand, and Soul Beast because I don't like power creep. It's nothing personal, but it is pretty bad idea to render all previous professions useless and all prior PVE content faceroll.

You mean that you are ok with the mandatory Druid, PS warrior and chronomancer but not ok with other profession having something worse being taken in raids? I agree that all of those have great dps potential but they are not mandatory. What they need is not nerf per se. What they need is to dish out damage that are balanced between each other in such a way that none become mandatory but all are equal.

Power creep and meta comps are two completely different subjects.

[Samnang.1879]

Nerf scourge

[Umbramare.9156]

It's a sad excuse tbh. If they change the F1 as it is (which is not bugged, it does exactly what the tooltip says), we will probably lose about 6-7k dps.

It gets changed because "unintended behaviour". Remember that from somewhere? Jagged Horrors?

Remember how Reaper still hasnt recovered from that "unintended behaviour" fix?

They will just leave scourge at 32k dps or something like that and say "it's in a fine spot", while 4k temporary health on 5 targets for 1 second every 15 seconds doesnt justify calling it a support class. It's like calling any class with any group synergy a support class. People who believe that capped temporary health can ever work as a support spec in PvE are a lost cause.

Why would you take this over a Firebrand which currently does more dps (on grievers gear), helps with quickness, might and has aegis (which not only blocks infinite damage, but also knockbacks etc) inbuilt in their rotation on a lower cooldown?

I believe they will pull a reaper on us. First the shroud excuse, now the barrier excuse. Necro will never have a spot in PvE.

Meanwhile Weaver 110k dps initial burst on Deimos :+1: so lets buff sword

[Ryouzanpaku.1273]

@Samnang.1879 said:Nerf scourge

Sounds constructive.I would prefer to boost intelligence of challenged players who stay in damage and then whine.

[Dadnir.5038]

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:From a PVE standpoint, I want nerfs for Renegade, Scourge, Weaver, Firebrand, and Soul Beast because I don't like power creep. It's nothing personal, but it is pretty bad idea to render all previous professions useless and all prior PVE content faceroll.

You mean that you are ok with the mandatory Druid, PS warrior and chronomancer but not ok with other profession having something worse being taken in raids? I agree that all of those have great dps potential but they are not mandatory. What they need is not nerf per se. What they need is to dish out damage that are balanced between each other in such a way that none become mandatory but all are equal.

Power creep and meta comps are two completely different subjects.

But there are professions that will never enter any meta comp if they do not benefit from some power creep and the necromancer is one such profession. I understand that things need to be balanced but you just can't brush away these profession that prevent other profession from being able to readily take their niche just because they overpower everything that unlucky profession can give. Even with power creep, none of the new e-specs can replace even one of this trio of profession. You can see it as "meta comp" as well as other can see it as a "lingering issue" on the same level as "powercreeping".

If scourge was meant to be a support spec, it should have been able to replace one of those 3 and the same goes for renegade and firebrand. Firebrand tried it by giving out large amount of quickness but failed it because it lacked alacrity. Scourge tentatively try to step on the toes of the PS warrior and the Druid but lamentably fail due to the fact that it lack all the unique buffs that those 2 provide. Renegade just do a bit of everything without being good at anything which explain it's inability to replace one of those 3.

You want to erase the power creep and it's understandable, but I point out that the meta comps need more flexibility and that, without some power creep, a few professions will still be left out of the meta comps and that's a sad thing.

[Lahmia.2193]

Low skill floor. The amount of effort you have to put in, to get amazing results in wvw, is minimal. Now I don't want Scourge to be nerfed (it's so skritting fun) but anyone saying it doesn't need to be nerfed or toned down is just deluding themselves, at least in regards to WvW. Can't speak for pvp (or pve so much).edit: for Palawa Joko's sake Anet, please do a gamemode split for balances. Don't ruin Scourge in all gamemodes because it is too powerful in just one mode.

[Neage.3579]

I have stated in other threads that I do not mind condition builds, and I understand that conditions is the bread and butter of necromancers. But there is virtually nothing anyone can do against necro vomit. you cleanse a few conditions off and you get a bunch more... The big issue is they just vomit every possible condition.... so even with cleansing 2 or 3 you still have so much....

On a side note.. I never played necro before.. ever... I made a necro went into sPvP. took the recommended build down to the weapons/sigils/runes went into multiple matches... and did VERY well.. as a class I am not familiar with at all just threw down some conditions and ran in circles... that's a little over-kill.

[Dadnir.5038]

@Neage.3579 said:I have stated in other threads that I do not mind condition builds, and I understand that conditions is the bread and butter of necromancers. But there is virtually nothing anyone can do against necro vomit. you cleanse a few conditions off and you get a bunch more... The big issue is they just vomit every possible condition.... so even with cleansing 2 or 3 you still have so much....

On a side note.. I never played necro before.. ever... I made a necro went into sPvP. took the recommended build down to the weapons/sigils/runes went into multiple matches... and did VERY well.. as a class I am not familiar with at all just threw down some conditions and ran in circles... that's a little over-kill.

The issue of the necromancer is that it's an extremly frustrating profession to play in PvE because it did have nothing to compete with other professions for a spot in high end PvE. Virtually all the tools that the necromancer have will shine brighter than ever in fight against players and that tend to provoke the wrath of the other professions.

Scourge rely even more on such tools... Hell! Nothing could rely more than the scourge on these tools... From the moment they revealed scourge it was more than obvious that it would shacke the community and that it would be legit. That's why the necromancer always end up being brought down to a level where they are easily countered by every other profession... Well... using hard CC is not difficult.

Everything is the result of a flaw in the design of the necromancer which state that the support that the necromancer bring must have something to do with conditions. Shroud is here to soak conditions, barrier exist to soak conditions, corruptions is our offensive support, cleanse/converting condition is our defensive support. These thing have little value in PvE but are super usefull in any fight against players.

When they designed the scourge, they pictured a character that rule over conditions on a wide battlefield, cleansing allies spread over a wide area and removing the boons of the enemies in that same area. In short it was a support for WvW. And then, they tried to make core necro traits work with this and thought that it was okay, maybe a bit strong against a lot of targets but never took into account the possibility of stacking shades instead of spreading them. And that's where things goes wrong, as soon as there is a more scourges there is more stacking and a wide area full of tacked damaging aoe become quickly very deadly.

Now Anet is stuck with a situation where the more you stack scourges, the stronger your control over the area and so, the stronger your zerg is. This create a mess in WvW. In PvP, the scourge is still really popular because it can hard counter anything that rely on boons but in AoE while, previously, this niche was taken by the signet necromancer that had high cool down on their corruption tools. This make scourge strong in PvP (even if not uncounterable, it still make him a huge pain to deal with). And in the end we have PvE, where the support tools of the scourge/necro are unneeded and player ended up relying on shades stacking, exploiting an unintended effect. In PvE any nerf to the effect that's exploited, will seriously bring down the dps which is the only thing that the scourge have to compete in this gamemode.

There is something that nobody tried with the golem and that's to give boons to corrupt to the golem. That's because usually in PvE, boss seldom have boons to corrupt. However, one could see the dps potential of a scourge against a player by giving unlimited boons to the golem and making it move. I'm pretty sure the potential go way above 40k dps against "players".

By bringing down the dps due to damage that are not dependant of the boon corruption, it will sure soothe a bit other profession but hurt all the PvE aspect. A nerf is needed but an intelligent nerf, not a rushed nerf on which they will never return that will hurt the area where nerfs are not needed and leave area where nerfs are needed in a good shape. The way they will nerf things is the most important.

[owlshark.3785]

I am not that good in the game but I have played for about a year(hopefully more experienced players can give their opinion on my comment) , >> I find it funny that people have so much against scourge and sometimes reapers, but scourge has literally no healing, no stability, no mobility and no longer has a second life bar(reaper same but second life bar and medium dps at best), and damage must be ramped up not really a burst, mention to me the last time you saw a scourge or reaper dancing around 8-15 people for about 10 minutes while almost and sometimes one shotting people and still get away?(something actually really common) (a.k.a stealth/invi thief), or a scourge or reaper taking 2 enemies at once and win (all experienced) or literally become invulnerable to burst the life out of an enemy, or how about druid that even if it stood completely still a reaper can use all condis it has with "vyper" and still not even kill it with out it healing back like nothing, I have been in zergs with about 40% scourge and the stuns literally make them worthless and they got steam rolled (group that won only had 4 scourges ), don't get me wrong yes they have some power but all classes do, I believe it is more of a matter of proportions.

[rurreres.3214]

@Sylent.3165 said:I see EVERY other class doing mass hate against scourge because they do too much damage????

I don't get get it all. Sure the scourge has decent damage but why do all these complainers complain and complain and complain until they get nerfed?

Scourge has ONE major offense indicated by a big red circle on the ground. When you stand in the circle you deserve to die.

Scourge and necro in general has bad healing skills, the barriers are knocked out instantly in one hit, they have no stability except from one skill. They lost the second health bar which was really the only defense, they can dodge roll and that's about it no leaps or mobility in a fight yet everyone wants them nerfed???

I just don't understand how bad of a player you can be to just stand in a red circle and complain a class is op.

The worst thing to is I bet all the nerfs become global and not just in wvw and will make this class just horrible in PvE.

People need to just stop complaining and learn to dodge or use a ranged weapon already

lol

[Lexan.5930]

necro's go from minor defensive with shroud to offensive with shades and suddenly people have a problem with it.

does anyone have a problem with stun stun locking warriors in pvp? with burn guards? with guards, rangers, elle, mesmers, and engi's who can go full on invunerable and then full heal?

we get barrier yay, extra health that's less than actual shroud and still gets burst down just as much.

we got super boon rip, thats the main thing. Zerker warrior still does condi burst, and so can memsers when they burst ..... so why the hate for necro?

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

@Dadnir.5038 said:You want to erase the power creep and it's understandable, but I point out that the meta comps need more flexibility and that, without some power creep, a few professions will still be left out of the meta comps and that's a sad thing.

You don't need power creep, you need to be competitive. If the Necromancer only did a reliable 34k DPS against a single target, it would have no problems getting into groups. Being far stronger than anything else just makes more problems, as it muscles out every other class and puts them into the same position that Necro was in. The real issue wasn't Dragonhunters and Daredevils hitting for 34k, it is Scrappers and Heralds hitting for 28k.

That aside, the biggest thing creating a restrictive meta comp is that boons and buffs cap at 5 people.

[Zenith.7301]

And power reapers hitting for 27k, and greatsword power ranger sitting at 24-25k ;(

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:You want to erase the power creep and it's understandable, but I point out that the meta comps need more flexibility and that, without some power creep, a few professions will still be left out of the meta comps and that's a sad thing.

You don't need power creep, you need to be competitive. If the Necromancer only did a reliable 34k DPS against a single target, it would have no problems getting into groups. Being far stronger than anything else just makes more problems, as it muscles out every other class and puts them into the same position that Necro was in. The real issue wasn't Dragonhunters and Daredevils hitting for 34k, it is Scrappers and Heralds hitting for 28k.

That aside, the biggest thing creating a restrictive meta comp is that boons and buffs cap at 5 people.

Not exactly. If Necro did a reliable 34k DPS, it wouldn't see any serious use in raids. Why? Because a lot of other specs can bring that same DPS, but also provide some meaningful group buffs (Barrier certainly doesn't cut it).

If class A can bring X, and Class B can bring X+Z, and class C can bring X+Y, then Class A will never get picked.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

Correct me if I am wrong, but weren't reapers being brought aboard raids already for Epidemic and their ability to reliably inflict damage at range? The necromancer isn't completely without utility.

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:Correct me if I am wrong, but weren't reapers being brought aboard raids already for Epidemic and their ability to reliably inflict damage at range? The necromancer isn't completely without utility.

The problem there is that in most raid encounters, Epidemic is totally useless.

[Dadnir.5038]

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:You want to erase the power creep and it's understandable, but I point out that the meta comps need more flexibility and that, without some power creep, a few professions will still be left out of the meta comps and that's a sad thing.

You don't need power creep, you need to be competitive. If the Necromancer only did a reliable 34k DPS against a single target, it would have no problems getting into groups. Being far stronger than anything else just makes more problems, as it muscles out every other class and puts them into the same position that Necro was in. The real issue wasn't Dragonhunters and Daredevils hitting for 34k, it is Scrappers and Heralds hitting for 28k.

That aside, the biggest thing creating a restrictive meta comp is that boons and buffs cap at 5 people.

Well 34k for a necromancer is already what we would call "powercreep". Usefull support for a necromancer is already some powercreep. An ability to nullify the effect of an incoming attack would also be powercreep. More of the same necromancer's tools (scourge) is powercreep. Whatever happen you end up with some powercreep.

A good scrapper do more damage than 28k on top of improving it's team's condition damage. Revenant and herald grant support in ferocity and boon duration, the fact that their power damage is bad is due to the complaint about how they where only auto attacking to do max damage (and thus they ended up nerfed). And like Drarnor said, if you want to compare power spec to power necromancer spec... well power necro is still in the abyss...

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

@Dadnir.5038 said:Well 34k for a necromancer is already what we would call "powercreep". Usefull support for a necromancer is already some powercreep. An ability to nullify the effect of an incoming attack would also be powercreep. More of the same necromancer's tools (scourge) is powercreep. Whatever happen you end up with some powercreep.

A good scrapper do more damage than 28k on top of improving it's team's condition damage. Revenant and herald grant support in ferocity and boon duration, the fact that their power damage is bad is due to the complaint about how they where only auto attacking to do max damage (and thus they ended up nerfed). And like Drarnor said, if you want to compare power spec to power necromancer spec... well power necro is still in the abyss...

Powercreep refers to an overall growth in strength, not just new mechanics or one class matching another. It is important because it renders portions of the game (including other classes) obsolete. If a necro suddenly did 34k damage like the other DPS specs prior to PoF. the game's content wouldn't be easier, because though Necromancers benefit the overall challenge in the game hasn't decreased.

That said, a good scrapper doesn't do much more than 28k in an ideal situation. The scrapper has lower DPS than condi engi or even core power engi, and pinpoint distribution isn't enough to make the scrapper worth considering. Likewise, assassin's presence wasn't enough to give the herald a spot, either, because any benefit gained form the skill is lost by having to run a herald. Prior to renegade, a condi rev could hit 32kDPS in ideal situations, but that wasn't enough for a regular group spot since it was beaten out by half of the other classes in the game.

Condi daredevil provides absolutely no group support, existing as little more than a beatstick. Yet, it had a spot in high end fractals and raids, precisely because it was a really good beatstick. When I make the claim that all you need is DPS, I'm not pulling it from thin air. I'm citing history.

[Dadnir.5038]

@"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:Condi daredevil provides absolutely no group support, existing as little more than a beatstick. Yet, it had a spot in high end fractals and raids, precisely because it was a really good beatstick. When I make the claim that all you need is DPS, I'm not pulling it from thin air. I'm citing history.

However, there is dps and dps. even if dardevil and reaper had the same dps, the fact that daredevil have an higher attack rate make it easier to maintain it's dps while still avoiding damage. The big hit of reaper favor area where you can OHKO careless enemies while a high sustain damage like dardevil is good everywhere. A mechanism like the shroud favor soaking low damages over a long duration while mechanism like dodge or block can nullify high damages over a short duration. Potentially, you can negate way more damage through a block or a dodge than with a shroud.

All you need is not "dps", you need the room to dish out this dps and for that this dps need to be practical. A good example of that is the elementalist in sPvP, the elementalist do not lack the potential dps, heck! if you let loose an elementalist it can dish out insane burst, however, in sPvP an elementalist is restrained by it's innate low survivability that prevent him from unleashing it's burst. It's not practical. On the contrary, in PvE, the elementalist have more than enough room to dish out it's damages because he is fast enough to do so, it's practical. The reaper, have unpractical burst that need a long cast time, in sPvP, it create some counter play which is good design, however in PvE it just cripple him because you need to avoid the mechanisms of the boss, your shroud won't allow you to just brush it off.

That's why I say it again, a block on the necromancer would be seen as powercreep because it would "trivialize" the mechanism that he couldn't cope with before. More dps would also be powercreep because it's against the attrition design of the necromancer that want you to outsustain your foe on long fight (It "trivialize" fight that you had to invest time in before). And yes usefull support on a necromancer would also be some power creep because it would introduce more support in the game and thus make team stronger, trivializing existing content (alacrity was power creep, grace of the land was powercreep, barrier is a kind of powercreep... everything new you add in a game is a powercreep)

In an ideal world, all the strength of a profession would be inherent to the core profession and there would be no variation of damage/defense/support when they add new e-spec. However, core professions are left in their state because it's more fun to tune down new content than ancient content. In such a mindset there can only be powercreep. The necromancer was weak in it's core state and would be doomed to stay weak without powercreep, however you put it, the necromancer need either a boring huge work on it's core ability or new exciting e-specs bringing powercreep.

[Amerikajinn.4635]

@Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:Correct me if I am wrong, but weren't reapers being brought aboard raids already for Epidemic and their ability to reliably inflict damage at range? The necromancer isn't completely without utility.

The problem there is that in most raid encounters, Epidemic is totally useless.

I'd hardly call only 3 of the 13 having no use for Epidemic as most of them.

W1:

• VG (Useful): Seeker control, and can be used to bounce condis between blue and green guardians in the split phases
• Gorseval (Useful): Spirit control, Orb Control, and can help to speed up the split phase by bouncing condis between charged souls
• Sabetha (Useful): Bandit/flame turret Control, can also bounce condis from champs to Sabetha when she returns to the platform

W2:

• Sloth (Useful): Slubling Control
• Trio (Useful): Bandit Control
• Matthias (Not Useful): This first boss on this list where there is no justifiable purpose, but it can be used to alleviate the icy patches if somehow that is a problem for your group.

W3:

• Escort (Useful): White Mantle Control, lets you bounce condis between Mcleod, Wargs and Phantams
• KC (debatable): While many groups use the 4 ele strat to take advantage of bonus damage whilst stunned, groups can make use of Epidemic here to deal with the phantasms that spawn if necessary.
• Xera (Useful): Adds Control, and if well timed can be used to clear up to 4 crystals to allow damage to be focused on Xera

W4:

• Cairn (Not Useful): No adds, no use here.
• MO (Useful): Eliminates the Jade scout/soldier mechanic if used well
• Samarog (Useful): Allows for easy clearing of spears, and allows condis to be bounced from rigom to guldhelm (which then get bounced right back to rigom for a one person Epi-bounce) to help speed up the split phase.
• Deimos (Useful): Helps to control the Prides/Greeds, can also bounce condis from the fake Sauls to Deimos.

[Herp your Derp.3542]

@Sylent.3165 said:I just don't understand how bad of a player you can be to just stand in a red circle and complain a class is op.

This red circle is called a Capture Point. They are prevalent both in World VS World and Player VS Player game modes. They are tied to the capturing of objectives, which is required for victory. Basically, in order to be a good player, you have to stand in a red(sometimes) circle. That's like, literally the point.

Stacking shades on points makes doing that impossible. Pulsing Desert Shroud with the greater shade takes up basically all of the capture point real estate with constant damage. The only ones who can withstand it consistently are Spellbreakers, who are also OP. Sure, other classes have ground targeted AoEs, but Scourge's has basically no down-time. A decent Scourge can invalidate the actions of two or three enemy team members without much trouble. Yes, range counters them, but it's not a rock to their scissors. I find Corrosive Poison Cloud and careful positioning good enough to deal with most serious ranged threats. In WvW, all of this is multiplied by the ridiculous number of Scourges present on either side. Even as a necro main, I can see how stupid it is.

The way it is now, the only excuse I can think of for somebody defending Scourge is that they were never able to win before it was released.

[Ryouzanpaku.1273]

@Herp your Derp.3542 have you thought about revolutionary idea of killing enemy before capturing the point? :)

[Dusk.4708]

First off You white knights have no clue how broken a scourge bomb really is cause you havent been hit by an organized one in wvw. It litterally has no counterplay and needs to be toned down stop trying to justify it being fine compared to other classes. Yea other classes have their qwerks, but now stepping over to tge spvp side of the game :astonished: you have an instant 9 condi stack on you CLEANSE! Now what are you gonna do??.. ......... ......instant 9 condis again....so how is that ok again on a tiny point where most of the necros skills can easily cover the entire capture point?

[Herp your Derp.3542]

@Ryouzanpaku.1273 said:@"kitten your kitten.3542" have you thought about revolutionary idea of killing enemy before capturing the point? :)

I have and I do. Frequently. See, there's a magic "kill enemy" button on my keyboard that I feel might be giving me an unfair advantage. It's the "F1" key. Using it typically involves all of the strategy and skill of taking a nap. It's tough stuff, so I sure would hate it if they nerfed my class and forced me to use my brain again. Do you feel the same way?

[Kumouta.4985]

Scourges get 1 stabilitygeuss what you should do to kill them easily

that's right, pull or use any other stun. If your damage isn't good enough to kill a scourge while it's stunned multiple times, then you really shouldn't be pvping.If you're not a necro, use one of your blocks or evade or movement things to get out of range and out of the death circles. If you can't do that, don't pvp.