Solo/Events/Open World Flame Thrower... Condition or Power?

[Malice.8439]

Howdy!

Just dinged 80 with my engineer, which was the last profession I had to level! My goal is to have all 8 alts geared up in exotic armour, ascended weapons and trinkets and "optimized" for solo play, open world content, events and just roaming around to farm. I've fallen in love with the Flame Thrower, and am currently running my leveling build; Tools 3-1-2. Alchemy 2-3-1 and Firearms 3-3-1. I'm unlocking both Scrapper and Holosmith, and trying to read up on solo builds. I'm confused by what I'm reading, because it seems like the Holosmith and Scrapper are both power elite specs, but using condition damage. Not only that, I've been told that the Flamethrower specifically was changed to scale better with conditions due to purity of purpose.

Since we're using a single condition (burn), does that mean I can forego Vipers and instead deck out fully in sinister/griveous, with Balthazar runes? The profession is still fresh to me, so I'd appreciate any help I can get. :)

[Aldath.1275]

Ok, first, Holosmith specially lacks condition damage, it's been proven than actually using condition great is a DPS loss. If you plan in running conditions then use core engi.

Second, conditions are generally bad for open world. Why? Imagine a mob with 10,000 HP; you can either use conditions and stack them over 15 seconds to kill it, or deal 4 2,500 critical hits with power and kill it in 5...

Most enemies in open world, bosses included, fall down faster with burst power damage. When people says condition is meta is because of instanced content, where bosses have so much HP you can build conditions and end up dealing more damage than power.

Now, Flamethrowers work as power in open world with the Tools trait that gives you might and stability, trivializing most of content. People like to call it "Juggernaut Build" because if the trait.

If you insist on going condi, then grab Griever stats, as it had highest power coefficient, but all in all, just remain power in all your solo characters, that's optimal.

[Malice.8439]

Thank you for your reply! So if I've understood correctly, to make the best of the flamethrower, I ought to go full zerker and stick to core engineer? What kind of runes would be optimal here? :)

[JesterKnot.8107]

This is the build I run for solo / family (who don't understand stacking or buffing each other). It worked better without mounts, since you always ran around with 15 or so stacks of might!http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vdAQFAUlcThSsYtWw6KQ7FL3FlYB9DhI9qH75O4CGhBAA-jFSBABA8AAuSpHN7PUmygGVCSp6P4pDwjLAApACcMA-w

• The grenade kit is there for the toolbelt and for CC if you need it.
• Firearms gives you stability, might, vulnerability, bleed, increased crit chance, and Fury
• Alchemy keeps you alive (with 8-10 or so buffs at most times, 20% damage reduction).
• Scrapper gives you some defense, might, and quickness
• Sigil of Rage make sure your quickness is 100%
• Fried Dumplings get your might cooking.

The only mob/bosses I have trouble with are ones that steal your boons. I wasn't paying attention to the Eater of Souls and he ended up with 40 stacks of might. Otherwise, stuff melts fast and I never have to worry about damage from Alchemy. This is such a lazy build I die when switching to my Mesmer.

[Obtena.7952]

I've been trying to achieve an even hybrid of both power and condition but I'm really guessing what that armor sweet spot is. I currently use Vipers.

http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?vdAQFAUlcThqrY5VwWLw6FL3FV4EGQZmYB9DhI4CGhBAA-TBSFQBE4CC0OdAiUJYvOQgGi6p+zSU+Ri9HAwDAIAACA/23+2n/MpA+aNA-e

The only time I really have a problem in this build is when it can't crit; everything depends on landing lots of crits. I have not gotten FT builds to work very well with Holosmith yet ... but you can do something different with Scrapper:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vdAQFAUlcThqrY5VwWLw6FL3FF4CGhBA9qH75uYB9DhIA-jBSFQBE4CC0OdAkY/BA8AAEpSwedgANE1T9nlo8LAACA9N+Gf+zIFwXrBA-e

The nice thing about camping FT is that the traits give you completely different flavours depending on your situation. It's very convenient to swap between more sustain and DPS at my leisure. For example, I can swap between Mass Momentum and Rapid Regeneration. I can do the same in HGH and Iron Blooded.

I would say that generally, conditions are not ideal in open world but there is a certain advantage of doing damage over time in some cases. For instances, there was no shortage of mobs in HoT that required me to dodge around , making it impossible to apply direct damage but since I had a number of dots going, it wasn't so taxing. It's a compromise, but where there is lots of variation, it's a welcome one.

[insanemaniac.2456]

@Malice.8439 said:Thank you for your reply! So if I've understood correctly, to make the best of the flamethrower, I ought to go full zerker and stick to core engineer? What kind of runes would be optimal here? :)

nooooo flamethrower scales much better with condi builds these days and power builds shouldnt give it a second glance.

"go zerk in pve cuz instant damage is better than damage over time" is more or less good advice, but it cant be applied to flamethrower because the only thing that scales decently with power is the auto (and 4 but good luck holding things in place for its duration, which is contrary to the purpose of going power anyways - instant damage).

the advent of burning builds and burns stacking eroded powers superiority. a 9 stack of burn does great dps and the skills that provide that quickly (rocket kick, pistol 4, ft2, bomb 2, lazor, pf4, for example) catch up to power attacks after just a couple secs so time to kill is never significantly longer and actions to kill arent significantly higher for condi unless you dont utilize burns.

i think the recommendation to go grieving is somewhat misleading. grieving stats sort of dictate a burn focused hybrid build (which certainly does scream flamethrower), but a lot of extremely significant condi traits fight with power traits. and runes. you still need to pick a focus. literally 50% of a condi build's dps comes from maxing out durations, and if you dont dedicate several aspects of your build to condi you miss out on huge portions. but those same aspects can also contribute to a lot of your power dps.

im rambling

[Ghotistyx.6942]

I see a lot of buzzwords and misinformation in this thread. Let me contribute so I too can have other people tell me how wrong I am.

Flamethrower is a good hybrid weapon, and I'd build it as such. Hybrid loadouts don't really balance power and condition damage perfectly, but rather opt for a more 60-40 distribution and we'll do the same leaning towards condi. Griever stats would be pretty decent once you can easily obtain them, but in the meantime a healthy mix of carrion, viper, and/or sinister would do you good. I wouldn't really go for Holosmith, but Scrapper has some nifty things to offer, particularly in the might stacking and gyro department.

FT Scrapper is generally what I'd want to see from a solo openworld ft build. You can easily stack 25 might and have 65% quickness uptime. If you only/consistently play with a group that can provide might and quickness, then you can drop Juggernaught and Viper stats for Incendiary Powder and more grievers along with the entire Scrapper line.

[Jerus.4350]

I just wanted to second Ghostistyx because as they said there is a lot of information here that just isn't correct for this application, might be in general true but not when talking about a main FT build.

What has me curious though is the max FT DPS build, it used to run around 28k to max build's 34k, but with grieving it might be better to forget about the bleeding duration and pick up more power damage which while not great the FT is constantly pushing out. Thinking something like: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vdAQJAqanUUB1ahVVB+dBcJjF2CrvNGHrjfVoL0BA8DViCAA-jxhMQB7UJoNV+1R9AAY/hQdCAOp6Pg6BAQKAeWWB-e

Maybe I have something new to do, put that build together :). I love me a FT build just for flavor and the fact that you can make them decent is always interesting. Not ever anything I'd recommend running because there are better options and people will rage if they see you sitting in FT but it's a game and you have to have fun sometimes. Now to get a 6th set of engi gear >.<

[Adamantium.3682]

I would love to see someone camp FT and get 28k

[Jerus.4350]

It was an offshoot of Xyonon's "plebineer" one kit condi build. https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/5z1vtj/cnd_simplify_this_the_one_kit_condi_plebineer/deuo4bf/

That's the comment talking about FT version. I did it myself and was able to get a couple 26-28k runs in before tossing it aside as something fun but not something I'd actually use. That said I hopped into the testing area last night and tried to reproduce it, but looks like the changes that happened while I was taking a break from the game (condi duration nerfs and trait changes) made it far worse and I was only able to get 24k(maybe I was missing something huge, but I don't think so)... So that idea is probably shot. Ohh well.

[Aldath.1275]

@Malice.8439 said:Thank you for your reply! So if I've understood correctly, to make the best of the flamethrower, I ought to go full zerker and stick to core engineer? What kind of runes would be optimal here? :)

If you plan in going open world and solo mostly, Strength Runes. Scholar are good if you feel confident and can stay with your life as high as possible and stacks with the effect from one of your traits, Glass Cannon... But yup, lose HP and you'll lose some DPS.

Strength in the other hand lets you stack might with flamethrower Juggernaut trait, then switch to bombs or rifle or whatever and keep up the buffs. If you plan in staying in Flamethrower for long also get orbital strike and the trait that fires a rocket. When I'm home I'll post my builds

[The Spiral King.2483]

If you really want to have fun, stack boon duration like crazy and get that 100% quickness uptime. I think Boon FT has spoiled me, I always go back to it within a few minutes of playing another class. 100% 25 stacks, stability, quickness, vigor, swiftness, fury, regen, and almost 100% for several others is just plain fun. Juggernaut on its own leaves me unwilling to play another class. I never realized how much stupid CC spam there is in this game until I stopped having a constant two stacks of stability.

[Obtena.7952]

@The Spiral King.2483 said:If you really want to have fun, stack boon duration like crazy and get that 100% quickness uptime. I think Boon FT has spoiled me, I always go back to it within a few minutes of playing another class. 100% 25 stacks, stability, quickness, vigor, swiftness, fury, regen, and almost 100% for several others is just plain fun. Juggernaut on its own leaves me unwilling to play another class. I never realized how much stupid CC spam there is in this game until I stopped having a constant two stacks of stability.

What build gives 100% quickness uptime? I played around with editor and couldn't see how it was done. I can get 6 seconds of quickess @ 100% boon increase, but the cooldown on the SCrapper trait is 10 seconds.

[nolaw.6475]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@The Spiral King.2483 said:If you really want to have fun, stack boon duration like crazy and get that 100% quickness uptime. I think Boon FT has spoiled me, I always go back to it within a few minutes of playing another class. 100% 25 stacks, stability, quickness, vigor, swiftness, fury, regen, and almost 100% for several others is just plain fun. Juggernaut on its own leaves me unwilling to play another class. I never realized how much stupid CC spam there is in this game until I stopped having a constant two stacks of stability.

What build gives 100% quickness uptime? I played around with editor and couldn't see how it was done. I can get 6 seconds of quickess @ 100% boon increase, but the cooldown on the SCrapper trait is 10 seconds.

https://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/professions/engineer/Permanent-Quickness-and-66-Prot-balanced

But the linked post believes that a Superior Sigil of Speed gives quickness, when it gives swiftness (in all game modes, apparently).

[seo.8092]

@Jerus.4350 said:It was an offshoot of Xyonon's "plebineer" one kit condi build. https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/5z1vtj/cnd_simplify_this_the_one_kit_condi_plebineer/deuo4bf/

That's the comment talking about FT version. I did it myself and was able to get a couple 26-28k runs in before tossing it aside as something fun but not something I'd actually use. That said I hopped into the testing area last night and tried to reproduce it, but looks like the changes that happened while I was taking a break from the game (condi duration nerfs and trait changes) made it far worse and I was only able to get 24k(maybe I was missing something huge, but I don't think so)... So that idea is probably shot. Ohh well.

Shame.

[The Spiral King.2483]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@The Spiral King.2483 said:If you really want to have fun, stack boon duration like crazy and get that 100% quickness uptime. I think Boon FT has spoiled me, I always go back to it within a few minutes of playing another class. 100% 25 stacks, stability, quickness, vigor, swiftness, fury, regen, and almost 100% for several others is just plain fun. Juggernaut on its own leaves me unwilling to play another class. I never realized how much stupid CC spam there is in this game until I stopped having a constant two stacks of stability.

What build gives 100% quickness uptime? I played around with editor and couldn't see how it was done. I can get 6 seconds of quickess @ 100% boon increase, but the cooldown on the SCrapper trait is 10 seconds.

Elixir U, 100% boon, pop it on cooldown in conjuction with scrapper. You now have 100% quickness uptime. If you need even more for some reason, a sigil of rage for six seconds on a 30 sec cd will give you some wiggle room.

[cat.8975]

If you're planning on running an open world FT build, don't bother with condi gear. Just run with a power-based setup (though celestial might be pretty solid, but that's a lot of effort for open world). While you CAN run condi, your kill times on trash mobs will still be significantly longer than a pure power setup.

Try this setup. The mix of commanders/zerk here is entirely arbitrary, but the numbers seemed pretty solid for the simplicity. You could just run full zerk anyway and still have pretty solid quick/might/fury uptime. Firebrand runes could also be substituted with leadership, but again, that's a lot of effort for an open world build. If you don't have access to mounts, I'd recommend traveler runes, as you wont manage 100% swiftness while out of combat. Equipped weapons honestly don't matter, as you're going to be camping FT for the most part, so I'd just recommend whichever ones you want the utility from (shield for blast finisher, rifle for CC + burst, hammer for evade/block/reflect).

Regarding grieving... we've looked at quite a few different potential setups and still haven't found any particular case where grieving is better for engi than zerk/viper.

[Malice.8439]

Goodness, I never responded to this thread! I'm so sorry, it totally slipped my mind!

If by any chance any of you happen to be reading this almost half a year later, thank you very much for your suggestions! :)