100% critChance without a Single Point of Precision

[Obtena.7952]

@kKagari.6804 said:Err, yeah, its simple really. Its better to critical, than not to critical. And you're saying it wrong. Its 100% critical chance, not 100% precision.

No, that's not true at all. The interaction between the various parameters that give you damage increases is much more complex than this. Hence why I'm asking if you know what the DPS outputs are. If you don't know, just say so.

[kKagari.6804]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@kKagari.6804 said:Err, yeah, its simple really. Its better to critical, than not to critical. And you're saying it wrong. Its 100% critical chance, not 100% precision.

No, that's not true at all. The interaction between the various parameters that give you damage increases is much more complex than this. Hence why I'm asking if you know what the DPS outputs are. If you don't know, just say so.

Good one, read above. Its like, you had half an hour to look at the post that is right below the one you're replying to, and yet you still carry that passive aggressive tone.

Lol, the damage formula it isn't much more complex, its simply a multiplier in this game. It really shows you know nothing and are just running your mouth. Done replying to you.

[Obtena.7952]

I'm not asking you what you think you know about the damage formula. I'm just asking you to show us this awesome data or a build that shows how you would use 100% crit rate WITHOUT precision armor taking advantage of FB in PVE. I've given my reasons why I don't think it's ideal ... you gave us LOL.

[kKagari.6804]

@Obtena.7952 said:I'm not asking you what you think about the damage formula, I'm asking if you have some numbers that compare to substantiate your claims. Obviously, that's asking much.

I posted it above, the calculated numbers. I gave you damage numbers in a situation favoring condition damage, and it is still only equal to that of the direct damage component. Obviously asking you to use your eyes is a bit much.

There's no point having this discussion with you, for you don't even know the basics of how damage is dealt in the first place. It would behoove you to read up on that before engaging in any discussions or offering people terrible advice.

I gave you data based on carrion stats, a stat set you can get in PvE.

Nice edit there btw. You've returned to your deflecting roots. I've given you all the data you asked for and more, and you can't even comprehend it.

And as to how, you attack, that's how. It's not rocket science. The how is the freaking control in this experiment.

You don't even know what you are asking for anymore at this point. The equipment is the control, with no precision your critical chance can vary from 35% to 100% easily by choosing one trait, over taking a +15% burn damage. Your damage variance is roughly 200, why wouldn't you choose to have more critical? The 15% burn damage increase isn't going to give you that 200 damage.

Lol 'hey guys, its not ideal to have higher critical chance'. You're getting 1050 precision just by using retaliation, that's how good it is.

Btw, in case your mouse scroll isn't working: > @kKagari.6804 said:

Radiance is generally good to take on a burn build anyways, you have renewed justice, radiant fire. The only toss up is between amplified wrath and righteous instincts.

If you take righteous instinct, you should probably take inner fury, this lets you get fury even if you don't use sword. Right hand strength works with axe anyways, so there's that. You get an easy 35% critical chance by taking the radiance line anyways, (~5 base, 10 against burning, 20 from fury).

Using a condition favored gear set like carrion (1200 condition damage, 900 power), 35% critical chance is about a 1.175 multiplier to direct damage.Your average damage from a 1 handed weapon, using attacks with a 0.8 damage coefficient is about 900. You need 3 seconds of burning for that damage.

Now, if you bump your critical to 100% (~5 base, 10 against burning, 20 from fury, 50 from retaliation, 15 from right hand strength) your multiplier is 1.5Your average damage from a 1 handed weapon, using attacks with a 0.8 damage coefficient is about 1118. And this is on condition damage favored equipment, with no ferocity.

So what really should be said is, you're generally going to deal more damage focusing on the damage component in skills, even in a condition damage build, than focusing on the condition damage component.

Things like ToJ1 will pretty much do better direct damage, than condition damage, unless you're against very tanky targets. .'. there's not one definitive answer to this, since it is situation based, but it can easily be said the direct damage component in firebrand attacks are generally on par with condition damage components, even when the scenario is condition damage favored.

[Obtena.7952]

You think Carrion is the optimal prefix for a PVE FB build for 100% crit rate? That's ... interesting. I'm wondering what you're comparing that to.

[kKagari.6804]

@Obtena.7952 said:You think Carrion is the optimal prefix for a PVE FB build for 100% crit rate? That's ... interesting. I'm wondering what you're comparing that to.

I'm giving you data in a situation that actually favors you. The whole point of the OP is that you can get 100% critical chance WITHOUT precision, which is why you wouldn't equip gear with precision in the first place.

Now I know you don't even know what OP is suggesting.

The whole point of radiance retaliation builds is that you are essentially getting 1995 precision, for free, so that you can equip other gear and have other stats you couldn't have gotten, if you had gear with precision.

Now this IS lol, because you didn't even understand that to begin with when you responded to the OP. LOL

[Obtena.7952]

I haven't asked you a hard question. You're making a set of data with Carrion Gear in FB. I can only assume that based on your tone, you think that's the best way to use the 100% crit rate build ... I'm simply asking what you're comparing that to. Are you meaning to tell me you haven't considered something else? I'm challenging the idea that FB is the best approach ... you're giving me lols, but you're avoiding answering some pretty direct questions here? That's grand.

[kKagari.6804]

@Obtena.7952 said:I haven't asked you a hard question. You're making a set of data with Carrion Gear in FB. I can only assume that based on your tone, you think that's the best way to use the 100% crit rate build ... I'm simply asking what you're comparing that to. Are you meaning to tell me you haven't considered something else? I'm challenging the idea that FB is the best approach ... you're giving me lols, but you're avoiding answering some pretty direct questions here? That's grand.

Did you not hear me say the equipment is the control? The comparison is whether to critical or not, as that's what I'm debating against, from your first post. Stop being ignorant. Do you not know what control means? It means its not a variable. Obviously if you have more condition damage, you'll do more burning damage. Obviously if you have more power, you'll do more direct damage. The question in debate is how effective critical hits are in relation to conditions, in which I responded, obviously critical chance doesn't affect condition damage, but the damage coefficients are good on the guardian, ,', most skills that inflict burning deal good direct damage, meaning, it is good to critical hit, on the FB.

I don't NEED to answer your incessant string of questions about whether carrion is good or what it is compared to, because they aren't even querying the right things. You have no understanding of how damage is applied, and for you to give people advice is ridiculous. Grand!

[Hellios.4108]

@RabbitUp.8294 said:It's already used in pvp, it's the Radiance hammer build. Though, pvp cares about bursts, so you don't need perma retaliation there.

You can replace right-hand strength with Berzerker weapons (or any 3-stat with minor precision) and Sigil of Accuracy. That means you can use any weapon you want and you can take Healer's Retribution, instead, which provides another source of retaliation and reduces the boon duration requirements.

I don't see why you would slot so much Concentration to begin with, though. Mantras have no synergy there, especially the Flame one, when you could instead pick more sources of retaliation. Healer's Retribution and the Elite mantra provide 72% uptime already with no boon duration, take Stand your Ground for more than 90% uptime. Then, Fried Dumplings, and your other traits will patch up the holes. Greatsword as a weapon makes it easy mode.

Anyway, those traits were discussed already back in August. The obvious problem is that you can't get more damage out of them, only more survivability, toughness, vitality, healing power, etc. If we had a gear set with Power>Ferocity/Condition Damage, for example, it would be a lot more interesting for pve.

You can check a Radiance build in the front page, the Centaur solo thread, OP is using Cavalier gear.

Wow,

Is it possible to check that build? Radiance Hammer? Sounds really good for what I am looking for, more open world or fractals edition.

[Saiyan.1704]

FB's Power build, F1#1 can deal 2k per wave which I consider "not bad" but power pressure throughout the spec is extremely limited. Condi FB is in the same boat as it's power variant. FB in general lacks damage mitigation playstyles - F3#5 is just not enough when there's a full 4 or 5 man team gunning you down.. heck, it does very poorly vs two power classes.

We at least had mobility with DH.. and Core Power Valk build pumps out so much damage, comparing it to FB is a bit of a (sad) laugh.

I really like FB but it's just not playable in higher tier Plat... had to stay Core and gain the 100rank points that FB lost me.

[kKagari.6804]

@Saiyan.1704 said:FB's Power build, F1#1 can deal 2k per wave which I consider "not bad" but power pressure throughout the spec is extremely limited. Condi FB is in the same boat as it's power variant. FB in general lacks damage mitigation playstyles - F3#5 is just not enough when there's a full 4 or 5 man team gunning you down.. heck, it does very poorly vs two power classes.

We at least had mobility with DH.. and Core Power Valk build pumps out so much damage, comparing it to FB is a bit of a (sad) laugh.

I really like FB but it's just not playable in higher tier Plat... had to stay Core and gain the 100rank points that FB lost me.

The DPS for valkyrie radiance firebrand is a bit more accessible (quickness), but the Tomes aspect of the build is very clunky. The sustain isn't as good but the cleanse is better. I've been using it recently in platinum. I think core has the slight edge.

[michelada.2947]

this build is far better if you use vanilla guardian, DH virtues have a long cast time and the conversion of the skills for FB make it impossible to use with this spec

[RabbitUp.8294]

@Hellios.4108 said:

@RabbitUp.8294 said:It's already used in pvp, it's the Radiance hammer build. Though, pvp cares about bursts, so you don't need perma retaliation there.

You can replace right-hand strength with Berzerker weapons (or any 3-stat with minor precision) and Sigil of Accuracy. That means you can use any weapon you want and you can take Healer's Retribution, instead, which provides another source of retaliation and reduces the boon duration requirements.

I don't see why you would slot so much Concentration to begin with, though. Mantras have no synergy there, especially the Flame one, when you could instead pick more sources of retaliation. Healer's Retribution and the Elite mantra provide 72% uptime already with no boon duration, take Stand your Ground for more than 90% uptime. Then, Fried Dumplings, and your other traits will patch up the holes. Greatsword as a weapon makes it easy mode.

Anyway, those traits were discussed already back in August. The obvious problem is that you can't get more damage out of them, only more survivability, toughness, vitality, healing power, etc. If we had a gear set with Power>Ferocity/Condition Damage, for example, it would be a lot more interesting for pve.

You can check a Radiance build in the front page, the Centaur solo thread, OP is using Cavalier gear.

Wow,

Is it possible to check that build? Radiance Hammer? Sounds really good for what I am looking for, more open world or fractals edition.

Here you go: https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Guardian_-_Radiant_Hammer

This is a pvp build, though. For pve, you'd need more retaliation for sustained damage, and GS would be better than hammer.

[Obtena.7952]

@kKagari.6804 said:

@Saiyan.1704 said:FB's Power build, F1#1 can deal 2k per wave which I consider "not bad" but power pressure throughout the spec is extremely limited. Condi FB is in the same boat as it's power variant. FB in general lacks damage mitigation playstyles - F3#5 is just not enough when there's a full 4 or 5 man team gunning you down.. heck, it does very poorly vs two power classes.

We at least had mobility with DH.. and Core Power Valk build pumps out so much damage, comparing it to FB is a bit of a (sad) laugh.

I really like FB but it's just not playable in higher tier Plat... had to stay Core and gain the 100rank points that FB lost me.

The DPS for valkyrie radiance firebrand is a bit more accessible (quickness), but the Tomes aspect of the build is very clunky. The sustain isn't as good but the cleanse is better. I've been using it recently in platinum. I think core has the slight edge.

OH look ... core with valkyrie ... that's the acknowledgement I've been waiting for. Yes, core with Valk is indeed edging out FB with Carrion, in any game aspect. Creating a high crit rate build and not exploiting an armor that gives power and ferocity to exploit that strength is highly questionable.

[kKagari.6804]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@kKagari.6804 said:

@Saiyan.1704 said:FB's Power build, F1#1 can deal 2k per wave which I consider "not bad" but power pressure throughout the spec is extremely limited. Condi FB is in the same boat as it's power variant. FB in general lacks damage mitigation playstyles - F3#5 is just not enough when there's a full 4 or 5 man team gunning you down.. heck, it does very poorly vs two power classes.

We at least had mobility with DH.. and Core Power Valk build pumps out so much damage, comparing it to FB is a bit of a (sad) laugh.

I really like FB but it's just not playable in higher tier Plat... had to stay Core and gain the 100rank points that FB lost me.

The DPS for valkyrie radiance firebrand is a bit more accessible (quickness), but the Tomes aspect of the build is very clunky. The sustain isn't as good but the cleanse is better. I've been using it recently in platinum. I think core has the slight edge.

OH look ... core with valkyrie ... that's the acknowledgement I've been waiting for. Yes, core with Valk is indeed edging out FB with Carrion, in any game aspect. Creating a high crit rate build and not exploiting an armor that gives power and ferocity to exploit that strength is highly questionable.

Did you not see the part where i said i chose carrion to have results that favoured condition damage? Since your original query was whether crits have any point with conditions? If i did the calculations on Valkyrie there'd be no comparison.

The build i posted used Valkyries anyways. Its like you're purposely trying to miss the point.And when it comes down to actual contribution, what have you actually said of value in this topic? That critical hits don't go well with condition damage, conditions, or you misunderstanding the basic principle of this topic by saying '100% precision'? Highly questionable!

[Obtena.7952]

I'm not purposefully missing anything. I've asked some pretty straightforward questions and didn't think FB was the best approach for a 100% precision build. you finally confirmed that was a reasonable statement, despite the hyperbole and attacks from you at me throughout the thread. What's better is that others seem to feel the same way, including you! Thanks!

[kKagari.6804]

@Obtena.7952 said:I'm not purposefully missing anything. I've asked some pretty straightforward questions and didn't think FB was the best approach for a 100% precision build. you finally confirmed that was a reasonable statement, despite the hyperbole and attacks from you at me throughout the thread. What's better is that others seem to feel the same way, including you! Thanks!

And you've been given some straightforward answers, enough for a 5 year old to understand. You have no idea how damage is applied. The answer is simple, even in a condition damage build on the guard, it is good to crit, because a good component of the damage comes from direct damage, not just burns. Hence, the carrion gear.

But no, what did you say? @Obtena.7952 said:

@kKagari.6804 said:Err, yeah, its simple really. Its better to critical, than not to critical. And you're saying it wrong. Its 100% critical chance, not 100% precision.

No, that's not true at all. The interaction between the various parameters that give you damage increases is much more complex than this. Hence why I'm asking if you know what the DPS outputs are. If you don't know, just say so.

This is like categorically wrong, unless your goal is to not kill the enemy.

for the last time, it doesn't have any precision at all. You don't actually know what is going on. You've been going on about conditions, not using tomes, all that stuff. I posted a valkyrie build to begin with, and heck i even play it, both on firebrand and core. Thats how i can actually give the OP advice on what is good or not.

What did you say?> @Obtena.7952 said:

To be fair, I don't even think that FB is the right build to use this on ... conditions benefit little from crits.

Which says what? you have no idea what is going on. Thanks for being unhelpful, as always!>

And you're royally missing the point when the differences between the core valk build and the fb valk build is that one offers more sustain, whereas the other one offers more cleanse. but you wouldn't know that because you don't play power builds on the FB.

[kKagari.6804]

Your first post in this topic, and the subsequent '100%' precision posts have all been an indication that you didn't understand how the build worked at all. You thought the OP was diverting stats to precision for his build, in which case you responded with it affecting conditions. Which is wrong. Like 1000 miles off the mark.

[Saiyan.1704]

No...I disapprove of both of y'all; each and every one of yall's responses to each other. I get the 1 paragraph epen attacks about a specific quote of each other, and do respect the eventual point towards the very end... but no one here really wants to read the quote wars y'all are having over there.

Point taken & agreed, Valk Core Power Bursts > FB Power Bursts. It's a sad understanding that FB can't keep up, except for Bunkering a point. I say this with a heavy understanding of FB Carrion & Power builds in mid Plat rank. (Deranked 100points in FB spec)

[kKagari.6804]

@Saiyan.1704 said:No...I disapprove of both of y'all; each and every one of yall's responses to each other. I get the 1 paragraph epen attacks about a specific quote of each other, and do respect the eventual point towards the very end... but no one here really wants to read the quote wars y'all are having over there.

Point taken & agreed, Valk Core Power Bursts > FB Power Bursts. It's a sad understanding that FB can't keep up, except for Bunkering a point.

You're lacking damage because getting the 100% on Valkyries requires a few more steps and you can't rely on virtues because of the tomes. I've been trying marauders today, with zeal. Once you lose aegis, you get 100% crit. Radiance is still good.

Shattered aegis pressure is so strong too in teamfights, especially against spell breaker.

[otto.5684]

@Saiyan.1704 said:No...I disapprove of both of y'all; each and every one of yall's responses to each other. I get the 1 paragraph epen attacks about a specific quote of each other, and do respect the eventual point towards the very end... but no one here really wants to read the quote wars y'all are having over there.

Point taken & agreed, Valk Core Power Bursts > FB Power Bursts. It's a sad understanding that FB can't keep up, except for Bunkering a point. I say this with a heavy understanding of FB Carrion & Power builds in mid Plat rank. (Deranked 100points in FB spec)

I am late to the party :#. I think this is good. Between DH and core guardian we have various builds with multiple weapons viable. I did not expect and FB to be interjecting in the power dps territory. Though it should work as effective condi dps in PvP and it does not. It is mostly regulated to support, which is lame.

[kKagari.6804]

@otto.5684 said:

@Saiyan.1704 said:No...I disapprove of both of y'all; each and every one of yall's responses to each other. I get the 1 paragraph

epen

attacks about a specific quote of each other, and do respect the eventual point towards the very end... but no one here really wants to read the quote wars y'all are having over there.

Point taken & agreed, Valk Core Power Bursts > FB Power Bursts. It's a sad understanding that FB can't keep up, except for Bunkering a point. I say this with a heavy understanding of FB Carrion & Power builds in mid Plat rank. (Deranked 100points in FB spec)

I am late to the party :#. I think this is good. Between DH and core guardian we have various builds with multiple weapons viable. I did not expect and FB to be interjecting in the power dps territory. Though it should work as effective condi dps in PvP and it does not. It is mostly regulated to support, which is lame.

I really think you should explore shared aegis. While i agree the power pressure is less on FB, i think this is only true in single target scenarios. In teamfights shattered aegis provides ridiculous pressure the other specs can't.

Which still does mean, FB is in a support role, but being a support doesn't necessarily mean it can't provide pressure.